Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[Kor]

It only gives away that Momiji was the one who relayed the correct deductions to Iori over the phone. It doesn't prove that Iori is playing Watson to Momiji. To the contrary it proves Iori is the live-in assistant of an eccentric armchair detective and is on the payroll of the said detective(when it gets revealed that Iori is the butler and all).

Which nullifies the assumption that he's Watson to Momiji playing Holmes. Holmes and Watson were two flatmates, Watson wasn't Holmes' butler, Watson wasn't Holmes' employee, he accompanied Holmes only to get his kicks not because he was Holmes' employee.

So Iori being Watson to Momiji's Holmes is a logically flawed simile and very uncharacteristic of Gosho. What I find interesting is that by using Momiji, Gosho is very well covering his tracks about the usage of "Wada Shinichi".
Any unsuspecting reader would be happy to think Momiji is Holmes and drop the issue, but what he'll fail to explain that Gosho in-spite of being a logical, fair and consistent storyteller is convoluting Holmes' realationship with Watson just over the usage of a fake name of a side character? Why would Gosho go out of his skin to project a forced Holmes-Watson relationship on Iori and Momiji only to justify a fake name's use by Iori. I find it a very low probability assumption.

Thet's why I'll stick to my interpretation that Iori is Archie Goldman to Momiji's Nero Wolfe and Iori is Watson to Rum's/Chikara's Holmes.

So... you seem to be under the impression that because by Momiji being the "Holmes", this reference isn't a 100% perfect allusion, thus this interpretation is incorrect, thus it has to mean something else. Right? I'm not misinterpreting your core argument in any way, yes?

Assuming I'm not, you are putting frankly all of your bets on your interpretation of a reference which is a very flimsy argument and is pretty much grasping at straws. You say it's uncharacteristic of Gosho to not be 100% perfect with a reference? Okay then, let's take a look at this other thing Gosho kept making references to.

Sayla and Char do not have another sibling in Gundam (but we have Shuukichi)
Sayla's and Char's parents are dead by the time the first Gundam series begins (but we have Mary, and quite possibly the dad's alive too)
Char is an antagonist (Akai isn't)

When fiction writers make references to other things, they're not obligated to carry on all the subtle nuances of those things they are referencing. You are choosing to read way too much into a few panels that make it very clear what they were going for.

Besides, in that case with Pisco, Gosho screwed up Sherrinford and thought it was Shellingford, so not sure why you're insisting on holding Gosho to such high regard when it comes to these things in the first place.

[Zerozaki4869]

It only gives away that Momiji was the one who relayed the correct deductions to Iori over the phone. It doesn't prove that Iori is playing Watson to Momiji. To the contrary it proves Iori is the live-in assistant of an eccentric armchair detective and is on the payroll of the said detective(when it gets revealed that Iori is the butler and all).

Which nullifies the assumption that he's Watson to Momiji playing Holmes. Holmes and Watson were two flatmates, Watson wasn't Holmes' butler, Watson wasn't Holmes' employee, he accompanied Holmes only to get his kicks not because he was Holmes' employee.

So Iori being Watson to Momiji's Holmes is a logically flawed simile and very uncharacteristic of Gosho. What I find interesting is that by using Momiji, Gosho is very well covering his tracks about the usage of "Wada Shinichi".
Any unsuspecting reader would be happy to think Momiji is Holmes and drop the issue, but what he'll fail to explain that Gosho in-spite of being a logical, fair and consistent storyteller is convoluting Holmes' realationship with Watson just over the usage of a fake name of a side character? Why would Gosho go out of his skin to project a forced Holmes-Watson relationship on Iori and Momiji only to justify a fake name's use by Iori. I find it a very low probability assumption.

Thet's why I'll stick to my interpretation that Iori is Archie Goldman to Momiji's Nero Wolfe and Iori is Watson to Rum's/Chikara's Holmes.

So... you seem to be under the impression that because by Momiji being the "Holmes", this reference isn't a 100% perfect allusion, this interpretation is incorrect, thus it has to mean something else. Right? I'm not misinterpreting your core argument in any way, yes?

Assuming I'm not, you are putting frankly all of your bets on your interpretation of a reference which is a very flimsy argument and is pretty much grasping at straws. You say it's uncharacteristic of Gosho to not be 100% perfect with a reference? Okay then, let's take a look at this other thing Gosho kept making references to.

Sayla and Char do not have another sibling in Gundam (but we have Shuukichi)
Sayla's and Char's parents are dead by the time the first Gundam series begins (but we have Mary, and quite possibly the dad's alive too)
Char is an antagonist (Akai isn't)

When fiction writers make references to other things, they're not obligated to carry on all the subtle nuances of those things they are referencing. You are choosing to read way too much into a few panels that make it very clear what they were going for.

The basic misinterpretation of reference that you're delving into is, Gundam==Holmes in Gosho's perspective.
Gosho's whole series is more or less a homage to the talismanic English fictional sleuth not to Gundam, that's why we don't get flimsy references regarding Holmes series, instead we get subtle nuances.( "Shellingford" being the password for something incomplete, because Shellingford was an incomplete creation.)

Why I'm putting everything on this is due the following facts,

1) "Wada Shinichi" plus "Medical Personnel" directs totally towards Dr. Watson. Why Gosho would introduce a character with such a fake name when he was going to reveal him as the butler/Hench-man of a detective Ojou-sama(not the friend/companion of her)?
His position is very Un-Watson like so why did he kept that name for Iori?
Only reason is that it was Gosho's intention to give us a reason to believe that Momiji was the person to whom Iori is equal to Watson. But it was Iori who introduced himself as Wada Shinichi(Watson), so why do Iori thinks himself as Watson when his position says otherwise?
The only possible answer is Iori is Watson to someone else not Momiji, if he's anything to Momiji then he's Archie Goldman to Momiji's Nero Wolfe.

2) It's not because Momiji isn't Holmes, it's more because Iori can't be Watson if Momiji is Holmes. See the difference ?(It not like that Light can't travel through water, it's more like if there was no angle of deviation when light entered the other medium from air, so that medium wasn't water.)

3) Gosho doesn't spew nonsense about Holmes. If he's introducing Iori as someone who is Watson, then it means he's Watson to a Holmes and Watson wasn't Holmes' butler.

[Kor]

The basic misinterpretation of reference that you're delving into is, Gundam==Holmes in Gosho's perspective.

Ah, I see. Now we're psychic. Okay, cool.

( "Shellingford" being the password for something incomplete, because Shellingford was an incomplete creation.)

Yeah you posted while I edited my post above, in which I added:

Besides, in that case with Pisco, Gosho screwed up Sherrinford and thought it was Shellingford, so not sure why you're insisting on holding Gosho to such high regard when it comes to these things in the first place.

If Gosho was so super duper into the Holmes references as you seem to believe, would he have truly made this error?

1) "Wada Shinichi" plus "Medical Personnel" directs totally towards Dr. Watson. Why Gosho would introduce a character with such a fake name when he was going to reveal him as the butler/Hench-man of a detective Ojou-sama(not the friend/companion of her)?

Why would Gosho give Chiba a silly love story? Why would Gosho make us slog through 7 years focusing on a BO member that is ultimately revealed to be yet another spy? You are assuming Gosho has solid and critical reasons for his choices. Sometimes, he doesn't. Sometimes it's all just for the sake of fluff.

The only possible answer is Iori is Watson to someone else not Momiji, if he's anything to Momiji then he's Archie Goldman to Momiji's Nero Wolfe.

Why say that it's the only possible answer, when there are other possible answers such as "Gosho was just doing this silly thing for some silly purpose" or "you're reading too much into this and are taking this out of context".

2) It's not because Momiji isn't Holmes, it's more because Iori can't be Watson if Momiji is Holmes. See the difference ?(It not like that Light can't travel through water, it's more like if there was no angle of deviation when light entered the other medium from air, so that medium wasn't water.)

You're trying to use physics in order to make an equivalence to an argument meant to justify your theory about some comic book character when all it relies on is a Sherlock Holmes reference. It's not very effective.

3) Gosho doesn't spew nonsense about Holmes. If he's introducing Iori as someone who is Watson, then it means he's Watson to a Holmes and Watson wasn't Holmes' butler.

Detective Conan is not Sherlock Holmes. Gosho doesn't have to be super dedicated to every possible reference he makes. Sometimes a reference is just a silly reference. And most importantly, sometimes a creepy butler who stalks teenagers is just some creepy butler who stalks teenagers.

Anywho, this discussion isn't progressing anywhere so... I think I shall leave it at that for now unless there's some other point I feel the need to address.

EDIT!

Wait, forgot one thing, remember how Gin talked about Bourbon how he's like Sherlock Holmes back in the Red Shirts case?

Spoiler:

So... what are we supposed to make of this moment if we examine it based on your insistence that these Sherlock Holmes references are super important?

Do you think it is meant to be more than just a hint that scar Akai is actually Bourbon?

[dccd]

Just speechless.
After even the worlds most obvious facts/references you just cant get rid of you ideas.

It´s ok - you guys won.
Guess it has to be the manga itself to prove you wrong.

Just being speechless about how people are interpreting the most nebulous/inappropriate reference as true fact.

Im not interpretating the reference or my interpretation of it as a fact, but ...

Spoiler:

It'd seem that Momiji was indeed thought of as a movie character but Gosho decided to make her show up in the manga too to make people familiar with her by the time the movie came out.
Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

I would consider this as a fact.

It´s pretty much pointless because its obvious enough, but:
Did Gosho ever introduced a "mysterious, longterm character" and solved pretty much every mystery about this character in the same chapter/story?
All of Ioris skills and tendencys are explained by him being a butler.
It seem not satisfying enough for some, but thats how it is sometimes.

Only the friday the 13th-reference wasn´t "solved".
The only logical conclusion from that would be Iori being an Akai?
Is he Tsutomu or did Mary forgot about one of her kids? Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it?

Compare Ioris second appearence with Marys/Seras/Bourbons/Wakitas/Kurodas or whomever appearence.
Quite a difference, isnt it?

But well, I thought the spoiler would be proof enough to even the hardest believers, but I guess it isnt.

Anyways, good luck with your interpretations.

[Zerozaki4869]

Just speechless.
After even the worlds most obvious facts/references you just cant get rid of you ideas.

It´s ok - you guys won.
Guess it has to be the manga itself to prove you wrong.

Just being speechless about how people are interpreting the most nebulous/inappropriate reference as true fact.

Im not interpretating the reference or my interpretation of it as a fact, but ...

Spoiler:

It'd seem that Momiji was indeed thought of as a movie character but Gosho decided to make her show up in the manga too to make people familiar with her by the time the movie came out.
Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

I would consider this as a fact.

It´s pretty much pointless because its obvious enough, but:
Did Gosho ever introduced a "mysterious, longterm character" and solved pretty much every mystery about this character in the same chapter/story?
All of Ioris skills and tendencys are explained by him being a butler.
It seem not satisfying enough for some, but thats how it is sometimes.

Only the friday the 13th-reference wasn´t "solved".
The only logical conclusion from that would be Iori being an Akai?
Is he Tsutomu or did Mary forgot about one of her kids? Sounds ridiculous, doesnt it?

Compare Ioris second appearence with Marys/Seras/Bourbons/Wakitas/Kurodas or whomever appearence.
Quite a difference, isnt it?

But well, I thought the spoiler would be proof enough to even the hardest believers, but I guess it isnt.

Anyways, good luck with your interpretations.

The heterochromatic woman from movie 20( Curacao??) was a super duper important character in regard to the movie but we didn't get her in the manga(would have made more sense because she's the Rum underling),
here we're getting a possible rival of Kazhua with along with a butler who is introduced in the penultimate arc of the manga with one of the supposedly similar body-types(womanly man) of the principal character(Rum) of this arc.

This makes him a very important character, Gosho has something for him in the plot. His curly, long hair and feminine looks make him a top class Asaka candidate.

All the real mysteries about Iori is still uncovered,
a) Why he has so much confidence in his abilities that he can overpower a possible assailant even in the dark?(Cafe case, his justification for being around the door)
b) After hearing the scream why Iori would think of blocking the culprit but not switching on the fuse?(A butler's/ordinary man's response would be to switch on the lights, his phone had lights on it, he could have reached faster to the fuse board than Amuro.)
c) Iori's unexplained utterances were mostly about Butsumetsu not about Friday the 13th, the latter was Amuro's stuff. Amuro and Iori are being in the same age group, Amuro despite being a patriotic Japanese man recalls Friday the 13th, while Iori being in his age group easily invokes a similar Japanese superstition. This means Butsumetsu isn't that much studied in Amuro's age group but Iori despite belonging in the same age group knows a hell lot about it.
This needs explaining.
Wakita=(A Full case +a Panel where he looks at a newspaper and mentions this one is quick witted)
Kuroda=(A Full case+ Its and bits of panels)

Currently Iori is pretty similar to both of them.

[dccd]

I have an explanation:
You are just missing the level of the manga so hard.

And if you dont see the difference between Iori and rest... I guess I cant help you.

Anyways, good luck and we´ll get the answers in a few years.
Thats when you can compare your interpretation-skills to the reality.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

c) Iori's unexplained utterances were mostly about Butsumetsu not about Friday the 13th, the latter was Amuro's stuff. Amuro and Iori are being in the same age group, Amuro despite being a patriotic Japanese man recalls Friday the 13th, while Iori being in his age group easily invokes a similar Japanese superstition. This means Butsumetsu isn't that much studied in Amuro's age group but Iori despite belonging in the same age group knows a hell lot about it.
This needs explaining.

Your information is factually incorrect. Amuro mentioned two things that happened on Fridays that were NOT the 13th of a month, where as Iori mentioned three things that specifically happened on Friday the 13th AND simply that Butsumetsu existed but nothing more. Please reread File 981.

[Zerozaki4869]

c) Iori's unexplained utterances were mostly about Butsumetsu not about Friday the 13th, the latter was Amuro's stuff. Amuro and Iori are being in the same age group, Amuro despite being a patriotic Japanese man recalls Friday the 13th, while Iori being in his age group easily invokes a similar Japanese superstition. This means Butsumetsu isn't that much studied in Amuro's age group but Iori despite belonging in the same age group knows a hell lot about it.
This needs explaining.

Your information is factually incorrect. Amuro mentioned two things that happened on Fridays that were NOT the 13th of a month, where as Iori mentioned three things that specifically happened on Friday the 13th AND simply that Butsumetsu existed but nothing more. Please reread File 981.

Still it doesn't take away the issue which I was stressing, a good knowledge in European History while also outperforming a Japanese patriotic man on Japanese superstitions are more than enough to invite the suspicion that Iori has a good knowledge of both Japanese superstitions and European history, which warrants scrutiny.

[alphajjc]

I have an explanation:
You are just missing the level of the manga so hard.

And if you dont see the difference between Iori and rest... I guess I cant help you.

Anyways, good luck and we´ll get the answers in a few years.
Thats when you can compare your interpretation-skills to the reality.

with all due respect..you have Yoko as one of your theories as who Rum is....Yoko..

So you can't really judge too much.....again Yoko..Yoko

Anyway when Iori is revealed to be a BO member quoting this post again will be hilarious

[Zerozaki4869]

I have an explanation:
You are just missing the level of the manga so hard.

And if you dont see the difference between Iori and rest... I guess I cant help you.

Anyways, good luck and we´ll get the answers in a few years.
Thats when you can compare your interpretation-skills to the reality.

with all due respect..you have Yoko as one of your theories as who Rum is....Yoko..

So you can't really judge too much.....again Yoko..Yoko

Anyway when Iori is revealed to be a BO member quoting this post again will be hilarious

Alpha don't you get it, Lum is a girl, that's why he's going after the girls.

He considers Kuroda and Wakita as more important characters than Iori, when Kuroda got two full cases and some panels, Wakita got one full case and a single panel while Iori got a full case and one fourth of the other case and all three are on practically same level ;
Let's forget him for the time being.
BTW on a serious note at the last panel of the cafe case Iori says, "Your Iori will back you till the end." which sounds oddly similar to Haneda Kohji's motto, "If you've decided something follow through it."

[dccd]

@ Alpha
Well, if ur so sure we might as well bet 100$ or more on it?
I mean Iori being a BO-member.
I would be in.

And its a slightly difference between a superloose fun pick (Yoko) and "he has to be someone".

@ Zero
Thats not the point why I pick a women to be Rum. It´s because of what I consider most logical for Goshos overall-story.

And you seriously dont seem to see the difference between Rumi/Kuroda/Wakita and Iori.
If your not convinced by the last pages, then nothing will convice you I guess.

Anyways again - good luck with your picks and your theories and let´s try to enjoy each other more instead of competing on who´s the best.

[Kor]

So you can't really judge too much.....again Yoko..Yoko

Anyway when Iori is revealed to be a BO member quoting this post again will be hilarious

Isn't this a double edged sword? I mean, if it turns out he isn't, the joke is basically on you (per your invitation). In general I advise to not go with posts that may cause bad blood between you and other members. (this isn't just aimed at you specifically but in general).

Alpha don't you get it, Lum is a girl, that's why he's going after the girls.

He considers Kuroda and Wakita as more important characters than Iori, when Kuroda got two full cases and some panels, Wakita got one full case and a single panel while Iori got a full case and one fourth of the other case and all three are on practically same level ;
Let's forget him for the time being.

Listen mate, if you feel the need to go on a passive aggressive trip with other people, please do so on a different channel (like via PMs for instance). When this sort of behavior occurs in a thread, it just becomes obnoxious and can easily get the thread off topic.

If anyone wants to reply to this post, feel free to PM me.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

c) Iori's unexplained utterances were mostly about Butsumetsu not about Friday the 13th, the latter was Amuro's stuff. Amuro and Iori are being in the same age group, Amuro despite being a patriotic Japanese man recalls Friday the 13th, while Iori being in his age group easily invokes a similar Japanese superstition. This means Butsumetsu isn't that much studied in Amuro's age group but Iori despite belonging in the same age group knows a hell lot about it.
This needs explaining.

Your information is factually incorrect. Amuro mentioned two things that happened on Fridays that were NOT the 13th of a month, where as Iori mentioned three things that specifically happened on Friday the 13th AND simply that Butsumetsu existed but nothing more. Please reread File 981.

Still it doesn't take away the issue which I was stressing, a good knowledge in European History while also outperforming a Japanese patriotic man on Japanese superstitions are more than enough to invite the suspicion that Iori has a good knowledge of both Japanese superstitions and European history, which warrants scrutiny.

Outperforming a patriotic Japanese man on Japanese superstitions??? I seriously don't think you read the chapter at all. Amuro was never talking about Japanese superstitions at all he was talking about Friday the 13th, but never actually mentioned anything that occurred on that date, just Fridays. There was nothing to "outperform" when it comes to Japanese superstitions. PLUS Iori only mentioned Butsumetsu once in one word bubble. He didn't specify anything about it at all. He literally just mentioned it by name as a comparison because its similar and that it was Butsumetsu that specific day. Iori is a Japanese citizen himself. Its kind of silly to say that he wouldn't know that or that his knowledge of it makes him better that Amuro because of it when we don't even know whether Amuro knows about it or not because he didn't bring it up.

I don't doubt that Iori has a great knowledge of Japanese and European history and superstitions arising from that history, but this comparison that you are making to Amuro makes no sense at all.

[Tantei San]

Tbh, I would prefer that Asaka aka Rumi wakasa, and RUM were working for some FBI/CIA types Organization, they were on duty on that time frame when Kohji was in the US. Thus , RUM killed Both Amanda and Kohji, but when he saw that Kohji had clipped the mirror to make his name he/she used the same to reframe that for Asaka to let her fall in the trap and he/she would be able to sneak out.

[Themaninarmor]

We are still discussing about RUM...right?
I think we need to keep our cool until the meeting between Mary and Conan which will give us some light to what happen 17 years ago and because of the clue about RUM is a little, even if we right about RUM's identity, It just a little bit of fact and more of guess and faith!?.

For now... I believe RUM is a character which not appear yet.