Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Kleene Onigiri]

Also on the topic of Okiya: I feel sort of bad for him, being a suspiciously smelly townie with abilities that admittedly aren't too hot (detect vs yusaku's interrogate), not to mention that once he deduces, he has no power of his own to do it again and will be stuck with Detect for a while, probably. It might be nice to give him a day ability, or similarly something that can't be investigated.

wha? D:

Giving Okiya another uninvestigatable ability would make him better (as I don't think he's too good atm), and also allow Bourbon and him to remain "mirrors" to everyone else, as nobody would be able to prove that Okiya did the action.

That smiley was for a different reason :x

When I gave Yusaku and Okiya deduction, I wanted to give Okiya something else too that would help him in finding the culprit. But the best choice was interrogation (which is why yusaku has it). But giving him interrogation too, while there are already so many interrogations, and that interrogation can be investigated, seemed wrong

Sooooo~ for Okiya. Why not giving him Cross-examine just that it would be for the day phase? So it can't be investigated. It would also help with finding the culprit, but would be a bit worse than the interrogation, since there are more possibilities, that someone committed a crime.
A "didn't commit a crime" result would tell you for sure, that this player isn't the killer. But it wouldn't mean that this player isn't BO for sure either. Which is good imo.
Well, it would need a different name, since it's a day action and not quite the same as eris ability then.
Or we give okiya the cooking ability

Also, since Okiya and Bourbon both have detect, which can be investigated afaik, bourbon can again pretend to be Okiya. And he can tell people, that this player committed a crime etc.
But the police can't be sure, if it's bourbon or Okiya then. Making the one getting suspicious etc.
(this will totally backfire for me as a Player :V
Kleene(Okiya [I can dream, ok? ]): This one committed a crime!
Townie: You're Bourbon! *lynches kleene*


Even tho Megure/Shiratori seem to be the "strongest roles", house-search can be just reused, when you found someone guilty. If you house-search someone that's innocent, then you'll loose the ability. So people wouldn't use that "blindly". They would use it first on someone who they think is BO and to that also did a crime. But for that, you need information. And you get information via other abilities, mainly interrogate or Investigate. Best ability for house-search would the info from cross-examine. But. especially with blame, you can't be sure if you got a BO or a town that way.
And when you say that you have house-search, you can become a APTX victim easily.


@Kogoro:
Kogoro is one of the strongest interrogators, once he's sober. Slandering won't be effective in any way anymore.
Last round breva kinda proved Akonyl for 95% being town. She interrogated him and got "BO", since he was slandered. Then she used analyse and got "not BO". And it's very unlikely that the BO would slander their own people, that have "not BO" from the beginning.
So I'm against giving him another item.
And kogoro doesn't have his own car, which is known, so he didn't get any car-keys :x

as general hakuba is inferior to the other 3 detective.. but they are not strong role in this game.. and often they are suspected as GIN!.

I think this is on purpose. And nowadays, with observe and steal, it's pretty easy to tell the difference anyway.

Being suspected as Gin? Nah, never happened to me :x


And my idea with Kir/James getting s.investigate and investigate was just shoved away

[xpon]

i do agree with them get both investigation. ( not just chose 1 )

[Schillok]

That smiley was for a different reason :x

When I gave Yusaku and Okiya deduction, I wanted to give Okiya something else too that would help him in finding the culprit. But the best choice was interrogation (which is why yusaku has it). But giving him interrogation too, while there are already so many interrogations, and that interrogation can be investigated, seemed wrong

Well, did anyone play Okiya recently? Whoever did, should give us some feedback how he played. If he wasn't used for a while I think it is better to let someone play as him so we can better evaluate how good/bad/fun he is right now.

I think Deduction and Detect are enough for him. Yeah, he has a hard time figuring out who was the criminal from his list initially, but it is a good starting point. Over the course of the game people from his list will get killed/lynched/proven so it is not like he will never be able to use Deduction again. And if he is in contact with someone who can help him figuring out if a player is BO things get even better for him. Yusaku is pretty strong, however the limitation that he can't use interrogate and Deduce during the same night somehow keeps him in check a bit. But again, rather than uping Okiya power-wise to be equal to Yusaku, I would rather weaken Yusaku instead.

Sooooo~ for Okiya. Why not giving him Cross-examine just that it would be for the day phase? So it can't be investigated. It would also help with finding the culprit, but would be a bit worse than the interrogation, since there are more possibilities, that someone committed a crime.
A "didn't commit a crime" result would tell you for sure, that this player isn't the killer. But it wouldn't mean that this player isn't BO for sure either. Which is good imo.
Well, it would need a different name, since it's a day action and not quite the same as eris ability then.

No. The only way I would agree giving him cross-examine (of any sorts) is by removing his other abilities. Or at least take away detect and make him unable to use cross-examine and deduce during the same night (or same day/night if he could only use it at night).
I think Detect was a good ability for him. But I agree that as games became bigger and more roles got introduced he needed to become better (similarly to Gin). So we gave him Deduce in addition which I think was fine.
If we really wanted to make him any better than he currently is (which I don't think we should, but I might be wrong here. Seeing him in a game could help to figure that out.) - why don't we just give his ability the "Gin-threatment"? So instead of Detecting one role per night, allow him to detect two. (Same for Boubon, obviously.)

Also, since Okiya and Bourbon both have detect, which can be investigated afaik, bourbon can again pretend to be Okiya. And he can tell people, that this player committed a crime etc.
But the police can't be sure, if it's bourbon or Okiya then. Making the one getting suspicious etc.
(this will totally backfire for me as a Player :V
Kleene(Okiya [I can dream, ok? ]): This one committed a crime!
Townie: You're Bourbon! *lynches kleene*

With the Black Suitcase players will get suspicious of every ability. The only disadvantage of Okiya is that he has the smell. But... how often did Haibara ever follow Okiya in a game so far? I can't remember a single time. It is just Haibara, with Sherry it is even less likely that Haibara is in the game in the first place. Even if she is (and Okiya is as well): It is so rare that she would pick him out of so many players. It is different from interrogation, which quite a lot of roles (5-6?) have. 
And even if poor Okiya gets lynched: He should have quite a nice collection of information at that point that he can include in his will - which BOs are in the game (and which not), and a list of possible killers that the town can then use to figure out the killer (since they will have roles that can check if someone is BO or not).

Even tho Megure/Shiratori seem to be the "strongest roles", house-search can be just reused, when you found someone guilty. If you house-search someone that's innocent, then you'll loose the ability. So people wouldn't use that "blindly". They would use it first on someone who they think is BO and to that also did a crime. But for that, you need information. And you get information via other abilities, mainly interrogate or Investigate. Best ability for house-search would the info from cross-examine. But. especially with blame, you can't be sure if you got a BO or a town that way.
And when you say that you have house-search, you can become a APTX victim easily.

I am not sure what you want to suggest here? Trying to say that they are okay the way they are now?
But Megure/Shiratori are winning the "strongest town role" vote by a huge margin so far. And like you said: Especially in combination with other roles they become even stronger quickly. And the BO might not have Anokata in their rows in the first place.

@Kogoro:
Kogoro is one of the strongest interrogators, once he's sober. Slandering won't be effective in any way anymore.
Last round breva kinda proved Akonyl for 95% being town. She interrogated him and got "BO", since he was slandered. Then she used analyse and got "not BO". And it's very unlikely that the BO would slander their own people, that have "not BO" from the beginning.
So I'm against giving him another item.
And kogoro doesn't have his own car, which is known, so he didn't get any car-keys :x

Well, we could just give him car-keys if we wanted. He is the only adult without some, right? Despite not having Okiya seen drive a car as well.
Though, somehow I feel this makes him kinda special. And I would rather let him keep that unique aspect. (And canon-wise, Kogoro does very little to stay anonymous as well.) 

And my idea with Kir/James getting s.investigate and investigate was just shoved away

Well, I am feeling that these two are kinda on the lower end of the power-spectrum of the town as well. But just tucking "Investigate 1 AND Special Investigate" somehow feels... out of place.
Even special investigate alone feels weird on these two - did we even see them doing any investigation of a past crime? It is not what they are really representing.

Maybe it is time to rework them altogether.
The Betrayal ability of Kir and knowing the numbers of FBI agents for James seem fine to me. They... fit, somehow.

Maybe we should let James use his ability as the head of the FBI group in charge of hunting the BO in japan? When I was GM during round 14 I gave James (Abs.) the task of waiting a certain amount of time and he would get the records of his subordinates results. So maybe we should make this as his ability?

Ability:
"FBI leader"
Roles with this ability: James Black

- During each night, he will get the reports of each FBI agent in the game
- That means, if Jodie observed player A, James will get the result of that observation as well. The same is true for the results of Camels and Akai's night abilities
- This includes results from the Bow-Tie and other items/rewards that allow the agents to perform more than the normal number of abilities
- He will not learn the identities of the agents in this way. He will only learn about their targets.
- Will get no results if James got tricked or injured
- If one of his subordinates gets killed/injured/tricked/used their actions on a player dying that night, James will not get the results of that agent. He will receive the results from the other agents normally
- This ability can't be investigated
- Also works if a player is just disguised as James

So... instead of going out himself, James will get the results of his agents. This could allow him quickly to get in contact with other players (if Camel/Jodie observed a child for example). Or at least he will get a lot more information than any other FBI in the beginning of the game. As the game progresses, his ability gets less useful though (because his agents might die, or because he gets in contact with them anyway).
Actually, with this version he doesn't need to know the number of FBI in the game anymore, he will learn that quickly anyway. We might change it into a day ability, so he learns the results of the agents a bit later. This would also make Irish not again too many information from temporarily disguising as James.
We might also think about including Kir, so James could get results from her as well. Would make sense and maybe make him less vulnerable to getting his agents killed and becoming useless in the process. Could also help Kir a bit if another townie knows that she is in the game.

2 (and a half) Problems remain:
1) James would require at least 2 other FBI agents. Otherwise he is just strictly worse than for example Jodie, since he couldn't even decide for the target himself.
2) What should be done about disguised agents? Should they send their results in as well. Or not at all? Or let them decide? What about temporary disguises?
2.5) James would make a bad BFF for Sonoko. Though, it helps to avoid discombobulation and injury... Also it might be questionable how well he plays if he is the lover of another FBI agent.


I mean, despite the problems with that ability, it feels better than his current "Special Investigate" which seems too generic.


But I must admit I don't have much of an idea what to do about Kir. And then again it would leave Tome as the only role with Special Investigate.

[Akonyl]

While James's special investigate may seem too generic, remember that he's also the first character who had it. Admittedly it was given to him when all the FBI had investigation (thus making him a special FBI agent), but now that most of them are changed, it might be a good idea to change him as well. Though, if you do, it makes the remaining special investigators more susceptible than they already are.

As to FBI Leader:
It's an interesting idea, and I actually had an idea for a police overhaul that had a "Police Radio" type of item that functioned similarly, but the problem is that it's still somewhat possible to "signal" james in this way even if only results are sent. If I was Akai, I could send in my investigations, and have the fifth be something like "Akonyl investigates Akonyl", or just fill up the investigations with "X investigates Akonyl". It would be pretty obvious who Akai was from this circumstance, and given the unlikely chance of Vermouth-James, it would be a quick and easy way to pair Akai up with James.

[Schillok]

While James's special investigate may seem too generic, remember that he's also the first character who had it. Admittedly it was given to him when all the FBI had investigation (thus making him a special FBI agent), but now that most of them are changed, it might be a good idea to change him as well. Though, if you do, it makes the remaining special investigators more susceptible than they already are.

Well, maybe special investigate would make more sense for police anyway? I mean... take away their investigations that they have right now and have them all special investigate instead. It fits, since they are more often looking for clues who was the murder than actually stake-outing (which we can keep for some of the police I guess) or looking what their suspects are doing anyway. That way the crazy cross-investigating stuff would also be slowed down since it would take you an additional day and night phase before you can investigate something to prove a player who told you what they would do this night.
On the other hand it would mean that the main use of the Black Suitcase disappears. Only Anokata starting with it could take much of a use out of it if every police can just look what you did during night 1 if you try to prove yourself.

As to FBI Leader:
It's an interesting idea, and I actually had an idea for a police overhaul that had a "Police Radio" type of item that functioned similarly, but the problem is that it's still somewhat possible to "signal" james in this way even if only results are sent. If I was Akai, I could send in my investigations, and have the fifth be something like "Akonyl investigates Akonyl", or just fill up the investigations with "X investigates Akonyl". It would be pretty obvious who Akai was from this circumstance, and given the unlikely chance of Vermouth-James, it would be a quick and easy way to pair Akai up with James.

Mhh, yeah. But on the other hand: Once that happened, what next? Yes, these two could work together then, and the additional information James gets from the other agents might be helpful. But the results James gets from Akai are now pretty much worthless to him since he is in direct contact with him anyway.
It would make James what he is supposed to be: The leader of the FBI. Though, you are right, it might make alliance formation a bit too quickly if things go well for the FBI...
Anyone got an idea how to fix that? I mean... beside changing Akai. (Which might not be a bad idea...)

[xpon]

dont you mean Akonyl investigate X......

well i hope if vermouth disguise as FBI, then she can send the wrong result as she wish...so james will not completely trust the result!

---

btw, back to my topic about making or young detective stronger, what if we gave Shinichi/Conan/Heiji a once in a game ability!

Soccer ball / Kendo
Roles: Shinichi/Conan (Soccer) & Heiji (Kendo)
Use: Once in a game only (Day/Night)

about the affect i still have a couple idea:
- The target will get knockout and cant use his or her action for 2 phase. ( like discombobulated )

or

- The target will get arrested No matter if the target have done crime or not (like Satou Detain)

or

- The target will get arrested if ONLY the target have done crime

but if the last option we use, then we need a Penalty if they target someone who havent done any crime.

[Schillok]

Ohh, I have an idea:

How about forbid investigations to investigate something targeting yourself?

So I can not try to investigate "Akonyl investigating Schillok", "Akonyl blaming Schillok" (not sure, is that possible?), "Akonyl slandering Schillok" and so on any more?

[xpon]

Ohh, I have an idea:

How about forbid investigations to investigate something targeting yourself?

So I can not try to investigate "Akonyl investigating Schillok", "Akonyl blaming Schillok" (not sure, is that possible?), "Akonyl slandering Schillok" and so on any more?

that is really make sense.

how can you check / investigate if someone do something to you!. right?

[Akonyl]

Well, maybe special investigate would make more sense for police anyway? I mean... take away their investigations that they have right now and have them all special investigate instead. It fits, since they are more often looking for clues who was the murder than actually stake-outing (which we can keep for some of the police I guess) or looking what their suspects are doing anyway. That way the crazy cross-investigating stuff would also be slowed down since it would take you an additional day and night phase before you can investigate something to prove a player who told you what they would do this night.
On the other hand it would mean that the main use of the Black Suitcase disappears. Only Anokata starting with it could take much of a use out of it if every police can just look what you did during night 1 if you try to prove yourself.

I've avoided saying this so far because I haven't seen Tome in action yet (if he's even been in a game) and I don't want him to be slapped before he has a chance, but aside from Megure and Shiratori, I think he has the potential to be the most powerful police role there is, solely because of Special Investigate. To others, Special Investigate is slightly more useful than investigate, but to a police officer who knows that a crime has been committed (killings especially), he can lock onto a specific crime and cycle through the suspects (either defined in the victim's will, or perhaps a deduction, etc). Increasing the number of police with special investigate would only make this happen quicker.

Mhh, yeah. But on the other hand: Once that happened, what next? Yes, these two could work together then, and the additional information James gets from the other agents might be helpful. But the results James gets from Akai are now pretty much worthless to him since he is in direct contact with him anyway.
It would make James what he is supposed to be: The leader of the FBI. Though, you are right, it might make alliance formation a bit too quickly if things go well for the FBI...
Anyone got an idea how to fix that? I mean... beside changing Akai. (Which might not be a bad idea...)

Yeah, the main problem there's alliance formation. Sonoko sacrifices any abilities of her own for one friend, while James can get multiple people, one easily and two others later on.

dont you mean Akonyl investigate X......

it doesn't really matter, as long as you stuff your name in there enough James will probably get the hint.

as for the kendo/soccer suggestion, I still don't see why you think shinichi/heiji/conan need any powering up.

that is really make sense.

how can you check / investigate if someone do something to you!. right?

the same way you investigate if something was done to anyone else...?

I'm not too against the suggestion though.

[Schillok]

dont you mean Akonyl investigate X......

well i hope if vermouth disguise as FBI, then she can send the wrong result as she wish...so james will not completely trust the result!

---

btw, back to my topic about making or young detective stronger, what if we gave Shinichi/Conan/Heiji a once in a game ability!

Soccer ball / Kendo
Roles: Shinichi/Conan (Soccer) & Heiji (Kendo)
Use: Once in a game only (Day/Night)

about the affect i still have a couple idea:
- The target will get knockout and cant use his or her action for 2 phase. ( like discombobulated )

or

- The target will get arrested No matter if the target have done crime or not (like Satou Detain)

or

- The target will get arrested if ONLY the target have done crime

but if the last option we use, then we need a Penalty if they target someone who havent done any crime.

I know I haven't talked about the Detectives (Meitanteis) yet.
Yes, I agree that they should be among the best roles in the games (again). But I don't think giving them just more abilities is the right way to do it.
What they have already is pretty good, very useful in a lot of situations and quite versatile. So they are good already, just not as great as some other roles (Yes, I am looking at Megure, Nakamori and Shiratori...).

We aren't in a situation where we noticed that the town is too weak, are we? So in general, we would like it to remain at its current power level. What we are trying right now is to make the town roles a bit more equal. So that means: Making the weak roles a bit stronger (Kir and James are probably a good place to start), but at the same time compensate for them getting better by fixing the ones that are strongest at the moment.

So - the Meitanteis will hopefully be in their old position once we are done with that. If we keep them as a reference of how strong a townie should be and do not change them they should be fine.

So, I would rather spend our energy on inventing new abilities for the weaker characters (James, Kir, possibly the Detective Boys, maybe Okiya, Kazuha, Ran, Eisuke, Asami, Jirokichi) and fixing the characters that got too good already (some police, maybe Yusaku).

[Kleene Onigiri]

That smiley was for a different reason :x

When I gave Yusaku and Okiya deduction, I wanted to give Okiya something else too that would help him in finding the culprit. But the best choice was interrogation (which is why yusaku has it). But giving him interrogation too, while there are already so many interrogations, and that interrogation can be investigated, seemed wrong

Well, did anyone play Okiya recently? Whoever did, should give us some feedback how he played. If he wasn't used for a while I think it is better to let someone play as him so we can better evaluate how good/bad/fun he is right now.

I think Deduction and Detect are enough for him. Yeah, he has a hard time figuring out who was the criminal from his list initially, but it is a good starting point. Over the course of the game people from his list will get killed/lynched/proven so it is not like he will never be able to use Deduction again. And if he is in contact with someone who can help him figuring out if a player is BO things get even better for him. Yusaku is pretty strong, however the limitation that he can't use interrogate and Deduce during the same night somehow keeps him in check a bit. But again, rather than uping Okiya power-wise to be equal to Yusaku, I would rather weaken Yusaku instead.

Sooooo~ for Okiya. Why not giving him Cross-examine just that it would be for the day phase? So it can't be investigated. It would also help with finding the culprit, but would be a bit worse than the interrogation, since there are more possibilities, that someone committed a crime.
A "didn't commit a crime" result would tell you for sure, that this player isn't the killer. But it wouldn't mean that this player isn't BO for sure either. Which is good imo.
Well, it would need a different name, since it's a day action and not quite the same as eris ability then.

No. The only way I would agree giving him cross-examine (of any sorts) is by removing his other abilities. Or at least take away detect and make him unable to use cross-examine and deduce during the same night (or same day/night if he could only use it at night).
I think Detect was a good ability for him. But I agree that as games became bigger and more roles got introduced he needed to become better (similarly to Gin). So we gave him Deduce in addition which I think was fine.
If we really wanted to make him any better than he currently is (which I don't think we should, but I might be wrong here. Seeing him in a game could help to figure that out.) - why don't we just give his ability the "Gin-threatment"? So instead of Detecting one role per night, allow him to detect two. (Same for Boubon, obviously.)

Also, since Okiya and Bourbon both have detect, which can be investigated afaik, bourbon can again pretend to be Okiya. And he can tell people, that this player committed a crime etc.
But the police can't be sure, if it's bourbon or Okiya then. Making the one getting suspicious etc.
(this will totally backfire for me as a Player :V
Kleene(Okiya [I can dream, ok? ]): This one committed a crime!
Townie: You're Bourbon! *lynches kleene*

With the Black Suitcase players will get suspicious of every ability. The only disadvantage of Okiya is that he has the smell. But... how often did Haibara ever follow Okiya in a game so far? I can't remember a single time. It is just Haibara, with Sherry it is even less likely that Haibara is in the game in the first place. Even if she is (and Okiya is as well): It is so rare that she would pick him out of so many players. It is different from interrogation, which quite a lot of roles (5-6?) have.  
And even if poor Okiya gets lynched: He should have quite a nice collection of information at that point that he can include in his will - which BOs are in the game (and which not), and a list of possible killers that the town can then use to figure out the killer (since they will have roles that can check if someone is BO or not).

Even tho Megure/Shiratori seem to be the "strongest roles", house-search can be just reused, when you found someone guilty. If you house-search someone that's innocent, then you'll loose the ability. So people wouldn't use that "blindly". They would use it first on someone who they think is BO and to that also did a crime. But for that, you need information. And you get information via other abilities, mainly interrogate or Investigate. Best ability for house-search would the info from cross-examine. But. especially with blame, you can't be sure if you got a BO or a town that way.
And when you say that you have house-search, you can become a APTX victim easily.

I am not sure what you want to suggest here? Trying to say that they are okay the way they are now?
But Megure/Shiratori are winning the "strongest town role" vote by a huge margin so far. And like you said: Especially in combination with other roles they become even stronger quickly. And the BO might not have Anokata in their rows in the first place.

@Kogoro:
Kogoro is one of the strongest interrogators, once he's sober. Slandering won't be effective in any way anymore.
Last round breva kinda proved Akonyl for 95% being town. She interrogated him and got "BO", since he was slandered. Then she used analyse and got "not BO". And it's very unlikely that the BO would slander their own people, that have "not BO" from the beginning.
So I'm against giving him another item.
And kogoro doesn't have his own car, which is known, so he didn't get any car-keys :x

Well, we could just give him car-keys if we wanted. He is the only adult without some, right? Despite not having Okiya seen drive a car as well.
Though, somehow I feel this makes him kinda special. And I would rather let him keep that unique aspect. (And canon-wise, Kogoro does very little to stay anonymous as well.)  

And my idea with Kir/James getting s.investigate and investigate was just shoved away

Well, I am feeling that these two are kinda on the lower end of the power-spectrum of the town as well. But just tucking "Investigate 1 AND Special Investigate" somehow feels... out of place.
Even special investigate alone feels weird on these two - did we even see them doing any investigation of a past crime? It is not what they are really representing.

Maybe it is time to rework them altogether.
The Betrayal ability of Kir and knowing the numbers of FBI agents for James seem fine to me. They... fit, somehow.

Maybe we should let James use his ability as the head of the FBI group in charge of hunting the BO in japan? When I was GM during round 14 I gave James (Abs.) the task of waiting a certain amount of time and he would get the records of his subordinates results. So maybe we should make this as his ability?

Ability:
"FBI leader"
Roles with this ability: James Black

- During each night, he will get the reports of each FBI agent in the game
- That means, if Jodie observed player A, James will get the result of that observation as well. The same is true for the results of Camels and Akai's night abilities
- This includes results from the Bow-Tie and other items/rewards that allow the agents to perform more than the normal number of abilities
- He will not learn the identities of the agents in this way. He will only learn about their targets.
- Will get no results if James got tricked or injured
- If one of his subordinates gets killed/injured/tricked/used their actions on a player dying that night, James will not get the results of that agent. He will receive the results from the other agents normally
- This ability can't be investigated
- Also works if a player is just disguised as James

So... instead of going out himself, James will get the results of his agents. This could allow him quickly to get in contact with other players (if Camel/Jodie observed a child for example). Or at least he will get a lot more information than any other FBI in the beginning of the game. As the game progresses, his ability gets less useful though (because his agents might die, or because he gets in contact with them anyway).
Actually, with this version he doesn't need to know the number of FBI in the game anymore, he will learn that quickly anyway. We might change it into a day ability, so he learns the results of the agents a bit later. This would also make Irish not again too many information from temporarily disguising as James.
We might also think about including Kir, so James could get results from her as well. Would make sense and maybe make him less vulnerable to getting his agents killed and becoming useless in the process. Could also help Kir a bit if another townie knows that she is in the game.

2 (and a half) Problems remain:
1) James would require at least 2 other FBI agents. Otherwise he is just strictly worse than for example Jodie, since he couldn't even decide for the target himself.
2) What should be done about disguised agents? Should they send their results in as well. Or not at all? Or let them decide? What about temporary disguises?
2.5) James would make a bad BFF for Sonoko. Though, it helps to avoid discombobulation and injury... Also it might be questionable how well he plays if he is the lover of another FBI agent.


I mean, despite the problems with that ability, it feels better than his current "Special Investigate" which seems too generic.


But I must admit I don't have much of an idea what to do about Kir. And then again it would leave Tome as the only role with Special Investigate.

1) Afaik there were some players with the "new" Okiya version. But they didn't say anything about him. But just because he wasn't player a lot, doesn't mean we can't change him.
I played Yusaku who also has deduction. Yusaku is quite restricted since he can just use 1 ability, which is good.
But that's why I see the problem with Okiya. Since he can't figure out anything with the list from deduction. And even if Okiya can use both deduction and detect.... you can use deduction just after you solved who the murderer is anyway. So he'll mostly just use detect anyway.

Detect doesn't seem to be such a strong ability for the town anyway. It's much stronger for the BO.
So okiya with "just" deduction and detect seems incomplete.

2)
No? Well, I'm for it. So, yes, because I say so.
Letting him detect 2 roles won't solve the problem. Otherwise we could just do that for all roles, where we think they are too weak currently.

3)
Only disadvantage? I think the smell is a big disadvantage. Since the chance to find a smelly townie is low. But once he/she is found, the BO can also easily get him/her lynched or maybe even APTXed.

4)
What do you suggest then? To remove house-search because people think they are the strongest townies?
Just because they are "the strongest" doesn't mean it's bad. House-search is intended to be strong (and was way stronger before anyway. Now it's still strong, but not too powerful). But that doesn't mean that the role is too powerful that it needs to be weakened.
Because the strongest role can be separated by "2 points" or by "10 points". So the gap between the 1st place and 2nd place can be huge or small. But you don't see that in your poll.
Your poll also says, which role do you think is the strongest. This means, that you need to choose one. It was a bit manipulated, since megure and shiratori was already mentioned in the thread and were called "the strongest so far".
You also didn't include every role . Kogoro, who is also strong, isn't there. Or KID.

To know if people don't like the strongest roles, shiratori/megure, you'd need to make a poll: "Do we need to weaken Shiratori/megure?" With a yes/no option. I would vote no then

Also, there are other roles that are strong with the combination of others. Not just megure/shiratori
Like eri-okiya/yusaku. Or generally all detectives with interrogation.
Or Okiya-DBs.
stake-out with interrogate.
etc.

Also, megure/shiratori maybe aren't on the town side anyway. (or get killed on night 1 :x)

5) No one needs to like my ideas

6) I don't like that FBI Leader, since he'd need to depend on other roles a lot. And it's not given that they are in the game anyway. Even worse if there is just one of the other FBIs there and that person is either inactive or get's tricked all the time or dies on Night 1.
Imo it would be similar with the lolipop example. The one player, that was James in round 50, had all FBI guys in the game and got a lot of information. With the player in round 56 just had 1 otehr FBI agent and that one was killed off on night 1.

Tho you could give both Kir and James a completely different ability instead of special investigate/investigate. Question is just, what exactly?

For that, you could give Okiya special investigate 1 and also Bourbon Special Investigate 1. (and tome would have special investigate too with the "prep.phase investigate" add-on xD). IMO, special investigate would fit for Okiya and Bourbon. Tho special investigate could be too powerful for both of them

[xpon]

if you investigating that mean you stalk them... right? that mean you are the 3rd person watching the 1st person doing something to the 2nd person.

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police as special investigation will bring the townie into a very very strong team again.

if that police is still alive in late phase, where only 4 or 5 people alive, he will get the BO in 2 phase! ( by trying to arrest and by investigating x kill y) so he will get 2 target proven even if he suspended

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Also, megure/shiratori maybe aren't on the town side anyway. (or get killed on night 1 :x)

LOL

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about the detectives, well being a police help the townie more, but we cant tone down all the police right?

but canon wise, the detective have 1 way to catch the bad guy all by him self

[Kleene Onigiri]

Ohh, I have an idea:

How about forbid investigations to investigate something targeting yourself?

So I can not try to investigate "Akonyl investigating Schillok", "Akonyl blaming Schillok" (not sure, is that possible?), "Akonyl slandering Schillok" and so on any more?

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to...


Also, DBs are strong enough imo.

And yusaku isn't too strong. Yes, I talk from experience here It's way better than that insight idea.

[Akonyl]

if you investigating that mean you stalk them... right? that mean you are the 3rd person watching the 1st person doing something to the 2nd person.

investigation means that you're gathering facts, nothing more nothing less, so there's nothing in that that says you can't find info that you were, for example, slandered that night.

about the detectives, well being a police help the townie more, but we cant tone down all the police right?

but canon wise, the detective have 1 way to catch the bad guy all by him self

I still think people are overstating the effectiveness of the police because of the 6 arrests this round. In the past three games before that, there were 2 people, 1 person and 1 person arrested.

As for canon power, honestly, I think people need to stop being hung up on how powerful people "really are" in canon. If this was canon, it would be the BO vs Conan, his family, the FBI/CIA and a few select others. Araide would be off somewhere else, Ran would be left in the dark, the DBs would be playing in a playground completely obliviously, etc.

Just because Conan is the hero of the show does not mean that whoever gets the Conan role should be the hero of the game as well.

[Schillok]

Well, maybe special investigate would make more sense for police anyway? I mean... take away their investigations that they have right now and have them all special investigate instead. It fits, since they are more often looking for clues who was the murder than actually stake-outing (which we can keep for some of the police I guess) or looking what their suspects are doing anyway. That way the crazy cross-investigating stuff would also be slowed down since it would take you an additional day and night phase before you can investigate something to prove a player who told you what they would do this night.
On the other hand it would mean that the main use of the Black Suitcase disappears. Only Anokata starting with it could take much of a use out of it if every police can just look what you did during night 1 if you try to prove yourself.

I've avoided saying this so far because I haven't seen Tome in action yet (if he's even been in a game) and I don't want him to be slapped before he has a chance, but aside from Megure and Shiratori, I think he has the potential to be the most powerful police role there is, solely because of Special Investigate. To others, Special Investigate is slightly more useful than investigate, but to a police officer who knows that a crime has been committed (killings especially), he can lock onto a specific crime and cycle through the suspects (either defined in the victim's will, or perhaps a deduction, etc). Increasing the number of police with special investigate would only make this happen quicker.

Well, I was a special investigator twice so far.
Tome for one night last game - which made me find out Kleene was not Sonoko and allowed me to fool xpon to think I am police (hopefully). But I guess that is a BO aspect so less important.

So, back to my game as Kir. It might also not be the best comparison, since it was the "much too fast over"-game Kleene GMed last (Round 16? 17?) and Kir was even weaker at that point.
Still: I spent most of my effort to find the killer during night 1. I was not able to do so before the game ended.
So from my experience special investigate is not that useful, especially in huge games like we normally have. Things might change a bit if you actually manage to reach the later stages in the game. (Or if you can be less worried about getting interrogated and killed in the process.) Or if there are too many of them running around with this ability.
But from my experience special investigate is weaker than investigate 3+.

Yeah, the main problem there's alliance formation. Sonoko sacrifices any abilities of her own for one friend, while James can get multiple people, one easily and two others later on.

But like Sonoko he can end up on the dry if the BO manages to kill his agents - or keep them discombobulated. I am not sure how easy or hard it is for him to find his other agents. Making them trust him is probably easier (he knows everything they know), but finding them in the first place would be hard, unless it is by risking to contact a teenager/child they found.
Also: Differently to Sonoko he gets no advantage if his agents get killed. Sonoko finding a BO should make up for her becoming useless afterwards.



@Kleene:
If you don't want to weaken a role, then we can't make a weak one stronger either. Because we finally seem to have reached a point where the power of the town and BO are in a good equilibrium. So we can't just improve roles without compensating for it or we risk of unbalancing everything again.

So: Do you want to keep Okiya, James and Kir the way they are, so we can leave Megure and Shiratori alone? Or would you rather make some of them stronger and weaken the others?


About my suggested James ability: Yeah, I know these are weaknesses. Having only 1 agent in the game makes him useless, so I guess he needs a similar treatment like the DB: He can only be in the game if there are at least 2 more FBI/CIA.
Some good and back luck are always included in the game (like for example which disguises KID and Vermouth end up with and how well it fits into the rest of the town/BO). And having James be a bit stronger in one game by chance seems fine. He should still be unique enough to make him a tasty Lollipop if you get him.