Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-974

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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MeiTanteixX

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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by MeiTanteixX »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
MoonRaven wrote:Coincidence
Agreed.

I wouldn't mind it, if it turned out to be the case... but right now, I just don't see it happening.
Spoiler:
Shuichi and Hidemi aren't the only characters with a widow's peak, after all.
My theory is about to come true :P
Last edited by MeiTanteixX on September 21st, 2016, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Themaninarmor
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by Themaninarmor »

Hey... Don't blame vermouth for her disguise as azusa... If you read the file throughfully, she was disguising as azusa in hurry because she was afraid that Bourbon would danger conan & co. So vermouth disguise poorly not coz she made any mistake, but because she want to protect ran and make conan aware that BO was there... and as we know...Bourbon is not enemy anymore... but vermouth never know that.

for eisuke and akai.... no comment it's alredy obvious
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Kleene Onigiri
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

Kor wrote: This whole flashback is a total farce. Instead of Conan working to figure out on his own about Sera's family, he just had to remember that he had met them before. But he already realized years ago that he met Sera in the past, so instead of the narrative relying on Conan's detective abilities, it relied on his abilities to... remember stuff...? The flashback was treated as some sort of resolution to a mystery, but the flashback was never a mystery. We knew there was such a meeting in the past. Congrats Conan for finally remembering thanks to all the subtle and also really not subtle hints Masumi dropped at you (intentionally or otherwise).
Plot twist: Kogoro hitting Conan on the head actually made Conan's memory bad :D So this flashback was totally planed since the early episodes *flees*

On a serious note, I kinda like that Akai met Shinichi and Ran when they were small. Because no one at all questions why Conan, a small kid, is such a genius at his age. This way it at least explains why Akai trusts Conan, even tho he's a small kid, without him having to know about the APTX shrinking effect. (tho Akai may actually know about that)
All the other people just let Conan go with his genius smartness, like the Police and the FBI and such. Only Takagi was asking Conan once directly, who he is (during the bombing case).
James, Jodie, Camel, Sato, Shiratori and so on just take it for granted? I think even Amuro wasn't bothered by it?

Also, this flashback is the only real coincidental meeting with Shinichi/Ran and Sera/Akai.
Ran did meet Akai in New York, but that's not 100% coincidence IMO. Since they were visiting Yukiko's old friend who's actually Vermouth. Vermouth then went to do her BO business as the mass murder, so Ran being nearby something strange or impossible. And since Akai was after Vermouth, it's not strange that they encounter each other.
Kor wrote: Speaking of Masumi - I said it in the past but I'll say it again here. She's written like an original fanfic character and the entire conception of this character is filled with problems. From the get-go she knows much more than most of the other characters in the series. She knows who Conan is (plus she knows about the existence of other characters she's probably never met before). She's the sister of Akai Shuichi, who is an important player in the series. Oh, and she also met Shinichi in the past, which is probably the most tacked on element in the series. So let's sum it up - she's a female detective who suddenly appears in the series, she knows who Shinichi and Ran are (and met them in the past), she knows Conan's secret, she's Shuichi's sister, and she just might also be interested romantically in Shinichi. SURELY then this character must be very important, right? Wrong. Masumi STILL hasn't done anything yet. Early on she was used as an unconvincing Bourbon suspect, but after that she had nothing to do with the rest of the Bourbon stuff. For all the things this character knows, she hasn't really influenced the plot in any meaningful way. Sort of like an original character in a fanfiction - no matter how much nonsense the fanfic author may make this character do or how important they'd try to make this character seem, this character cannot affect the original work. (Just before someone jumps. No, I'm not saying Masumi is an actual fanfic character. I'm saying she's written like one).
Worst of all, it's been over half a decade already since this character first appeared, yet we still have no clue what is even the motivation of this character. She seems to want Conan to remember their past encounter, she seems to want Conan to know about Mary and help them in... whatever it is they might need help with, but she's never going to simply tell him that she knows his secret or how they met in the past*. No, she has to be all mysterious and stuff. Wait, did I say mysterious? My apologies, I meant to say vague. Just because characters might say vague stuff doesn't make them (or what they say) mysterious, it just... means they are being vague. Gosho, as a mystery writer, should be able to tell the difference between vagueness and mysteriousness. Does he understand that, though? Who knows. Masumi being vague hasn't made her an interesting character, it just made her a frustrating character.

*It honestly makes my skin crawl whenever I see people try to justify Masumi's behavior about this subject, or really try to justify any of this "characters don't talk with each other" nonsense. It's a gigantic flaw in Gosho's writing. I think it's pretty obvious why Masumi and other characters have been behaving this way - because Gosho wants/needs to pad out his series as much as possible. All the justifications for this people may try to come up with will not cover the inescapable problem that this entire "storyline" has been uninteresting, badly written, and filled with the most boring "mysteries" imaginable.
"Masumi STILL hasn't done anything yet." But what is she supposed to do?
As a character, she's fulfilling her purpose. First she was the red herring for being bourbon. Similar to Jodie being the red herring to being Vermouth. Seems women conected to Akai are red herrings. That's probably why Akai is called Akai. *flees again*
Both of them also have a relationship to Akai, so they know some stuff that Conan doesn't because of that.
Because of the relationship to Akai, she can give background information, so that's her other purpose as a character. Then she's also one of the few teenager, so she's a detective rival and also a love rival (so it seems). So she does fulfill a lot of purposes and can give out new information to the reader. Since her mom shrunk, she's also a connection to the APTX and maybe even to Haibara and her research (maybe).

"yet we still have no clue what is even the motivation of this character" I can't agree with that.
Her motivation was to confirm her brothers death, since she was talking about her brother a lot. She also hides her mother, who got shrunk, so her also trying to get a cure is likely, which would explain why she's interested in Conan, who she knows should be a teenager like her.

Tho I can understand why people are fed up with the slow pace. But I can also understand Gosho's point of view. For one, it's every mangakas dream to have your manga run very long. Second, Gosho is old, so he wouldn't make another manga most likely. Third, Gosho is probably also being pushed to make his manga as long running as possible too. Coz money is money.
But once Gosh does the real BO story, he won't be able to do side stories anymore. So stuff goes on very slowly till then.

But personally, I do like the current things that are happening, since it's interesting and for gosho's standard pretty fast or at least faster?

Wakarimashita wrote:
Serinox wrote:
Wakarimashita wrote:
Kudo Shinchi wrote:Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I see it.
Vermouth, who had previously been established as a very careful and meticulous character, messing up badly when disguised as Azusa by calling Ran 'Angel'.
She messed up killing Sherry because Ran and the whole angel stuff, it's one of her biggest and few weak points. It's more consistent than dumbing her down.
There's a difference between a well developed 'weakness' because of her attachment to Ran which humanises her character and having her mess up and call-out Ran 'Angel' which frankly makes her look foolish.
But Conan also did a blunter with giving Vermouth information, just because Vermouth asked with Ran's voice.
Conan does actually a lot of mistakes when it's about Ran or solving a case. Like the red t-shirt case or when he lost his bowtie and mary solved the case and other stuff. Lucky for him, nothing bad happened yet. (And Heiji will never learn to not call him Kudo either XD).

So Vermouth doing a mistake wasn't so strange. What made her act strange was her happiness to see Ran and Conan, as if she was on a school-trip. She seems way more carefree now since Shiho is labeled dead to the BO.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by eros1607 »

Kleene Onigiri wrote:
But Conan also did a blunter with giving Vermouth information, just because Vermouth asked with Ran's voice.
Conan does actually a lot of mistakes when it's about Ran or solving a case. Like the red t-shirt case or when he lost his bowtie and mary solved the case and other stuff. Lucky for him, nothing bad happened yet. (And Heiji will never learn to not call him Kudo either XD).

So Vermouth doing a mistake wasn't so strange. What made her act strange was her happiness to see Ran and Conan, as if she was on a school-trip. She seems way more carefree now since Shiho is labeled dead to the BO.
Lol, I feel that recently, Gosho deliberately makes his characters make mistakes more and more, which is a clumsiness in his writing. Like in Bourbon case, Conan realize that Amuro is a spy because he reacted to someone calling "zero". In Soul detective case, Sera slipped and called Mary "Mama". Conan "revealed" himself to Akai also due to his mistake. Now, Ran realized that Azusa/Vermouth is a kidnapper because she accidentally calling "Angel". That is repetitive and boring. This is detective fiction where characters should use their skills, not rely on enemy's mistakes. We prefer enemies without mistakes, that makes them more threatening.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by jimmy_kud0_tv2 »

Some thoughts on the case.
Spoiler:
The dead watch thief isn't wearing a watch, but all three suspects are. Makes me think that the accomplice might have actually been the mastermind behind the whole thing and was going after a particular watch, which they took with them. The accomplice did not die, meaning while escaping from the police they had the sense to wear a seat belt. Or maybe they put one on knowing that the car was going to crash and unbuckled the other thief's belt just before the crash.

Yusaku was able to solve the case from a picture of the suspects. This probably means that you can tell which one is the suspect by either the items they were wearing at the time, or the items that they bought at the store.

If the accomplice really did swim out from the car and mix in with the crowd, then their wallet would potentially be wet. Meaning they would have to wrap it in something in some attempt to keep it dry. The best thing to wrap it in would be a shirt, or something like it. This potentially eliminates the third suspect, as he really has nothing to wrap it in from before he went to the shop. His shirt was bought from the store and is still dry. Plus if he was the accomplice, wearing two watches to the scene of a crime where a watch robbery was involved would be a bit stupid if you knew about it in advance. This leaves the other two.

The first suspect's story sounds a bit weird. He claims that his girlfriend pushed him off the boat, but when he came back up for air she was gone? However she left his wallet? Why was his wallet not in his own pocket? In the few seconds it would take to re-orientate himself and emerge from the water, how did he not see or hear her jump into the water and swim away? Ignoring the story, he could have wrapped his wallet in his hoodie (or hid it in the hood) and then swam to shore. He then bought both shirt and pants and created a story to make people think that he was wearing the hoodie at the time it became wet. I noticed that his left hand is firmly clenched, I'm wondering if there may be some kind of bruise there from him bracing himself when the car hit the railing, or hit the water.

However the second suspect also seems like she would be able to do it. If she is wearing a two-piece bathing suit, she could use both her shirt and the cloth wrapped around her waist as a way of keeping a wallet dry. Afterword she could have just put the wet clothing back on. No one would ask any questions because she is soaking wet from swimming. I also noticed that her watch is on the inside of her wrist. I did a bit of research and there are a few reasons for doing so. 1) A lot of people seem to note that wearing it there is a carry over from the past where watch faces were made of crystal and people would do so to prevent from scratching it. 2) Nurses seem to do so because they can see it better while taking pulses. 3) Military seem to wear it that way so it won't reflect light from the sun; and light up and glow in the dark watch faces; both of which can give away their positions. She could be wearing her watch that way so that the light from the sun could not reflect off of it to give away her position while swimming away from the car. When swimming, the watch face on the inside of the wrist would be pointed down towards the sea floor and be less likely to reflect. Both of the other suspects are wearing their watches facing out. Her sandals could have become damaged in the car crash and she could have ditched them in the ocean. If there was a bruise created by the strap when it broke, she may have bought a new pair to cover the bruise.
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

eros1607 wrote:This is detective fiction where characters should use their skills, not rely on enemy's mistakes. We prefer enemies without mistakes, that makes them more threatening.
So Gin not seeing through Shuichi's fake death isn't a mistake, on his part? And what about him not seeing through Hidemi? Red Shirts (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581) was the third time he considered killing her (First time, when Ethan died; second, when the BO retrieved her from the FBI). At that point, shouldn't he (and Anokata/The BO Boss, for that matter) be thinking—with the whole, "first time is random, second time is coincidence, third time is a pattern" thing that Chek mentioned—that she may be more trouble than she's worth? Isn't that reason for you (with how one mistake on Vermouth's part (and it's not going to be a mistake, really, until Ran's realization goes somewhere) makes you not take her seriously, anymore) to not take Gin seriously, anymore?

Wait... back in Contact with the Black Organization (File 380–File 383/Episode 309–Episode 311), Gin bothered to look inside the lockers to see if the person who'd set Vodka up (Shinichi/Conan) was hiding in one of them, but didn't consider that an adult with dwarfism (think Peter Dinklage) could be the one who'd set Vodka up? Isn't that a mistake that should make you not take Gin seriously?

If the bad guys never made mistakes, they'd never lose—Jodie would be dead, the Akais would be dead, Hidemi would be dead, Rei/Tooru would be dead, Shiho/Ai would be dead, Shinichi/Conan would be dead, etc. And if the good guys, also never made mistakes, things would be a true stalemate. Someone's gotta mess up.

And isn't it a skill to capitalize on/take advantage of your enemies' mistakes?

I'd say, at the end of the day, her revealing her boss' mail address to Shinichi/Conan was a far bigger mistake than her calling Ran "angel." To consider the latter mistake to be so big (as you evidently do) is to assume that, because you think Gosho's been messing up, as of late, that he's going to continue messing up until DC concludes. I say wait until all the chips are down and everything's clear. After that, if you say things like, "this wasn't worth it," or "Gosho hasn't had it since 2007 (or 2003, 2004, 2005 or 2006, take your pick)," then that'll just be one of the "sad but true" things/hard truths for you and all the other fans who say things like that, once DC ends.

How about this—if, in that case (File 954–File 957), Ran has to realize that the Azusa who came with Rei/Tooru is Vermouth, the woman who she saved Shiho/Ai from, and you got to decide how Ran would find out, how would you have her find out?
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Some thoughts on the case.
Spoiler:
The dead watch thief isn't wearing a watch, but all three suspects are. Makes me think that the accomplice might have actually been the mastermind behind the whole thing and was going after a particular watch, which they took with them. The accomplice did not die, meaning while escaping from the police they had the sense to wear a seat belt. Or maybe they put one on knowing that the car was going to crash and unbuckled the other thief's belt just before the crash.

Yusaku was able to solve the case from a picture of the suspects. This probably means that you can tell which one is the suspect by either the items they were wearing at the time, or the items that they bought at the store.

If the accomplice really did swim out from the car and mix in with the crowd, then their wallet would potentially be wet. Meaning they would have to wrap it in something in some attempt to keep it dry. The best thing to wrap it in would be a shirt, or something like it. This potentially eliminates the third suspect, as he really has nothing to wrap it in from before he went to the shop. His shirt was bought from the store and is still dry. Plus if he was the accomplice, wearing two watches to the scene of a crime where a watch robbery was involved would be a bit stupid if you knew about it in advance. This leaves the other two.

The first suspect's story sounds a bit weird. He claims that his girlfriend pushed him off the boat, but when he came back up for air she was gone? However she left his wallet? Why was his wallet not in his own pocket? In the few seconds it would take to re-orientate himself and emerge from the water, how did he not see or hear her jump into the water and swim away? Ignoring the story, he could have wrapped his wallet in his hoodie (or hid it in the hood) and then swam to shore. He then bought both shirt and pants and created a story to make people think that he was wearing the hoodie at the time it became wet. I noticed that his left hand is firmly clenched, I'm wondering if there may be some kind of bruise there from him bracing himself when the car hit the railing, or hit the water.

However the second suspect also seems like she would be able to do it. If she is wearing a two-piece bathing suit, she could use both her shirt and the cloth wrapped around her waist as a way of keeping a wallet dry. Afterword she could have just put the wet clothing back on. No one would ask any questions because she is soaking wet from swimming. I also noticed that her watch is on the inside of her wrist. I did a bit of research and there are a few reasons for doing so. 1) A lot of people seem to note that wearing it there is a carry over from the past where watch faces were made of crystal and people would do so to prevent from scratching it. 2) Nurses seem to do so because they can see it better while taking pulses. 3) Military seem to wear it that way so it won't reflect light from the sun; and light up and glow in the dark watch faces; both of which can give away their positions. She could be wearing her watch that way so that the light from the sun could not reflect off of it to give away her position while swimming away from the car. When swimming, the watch face on the inside of the wrist would be pointed down towards the sea floor and be less likely to reflect. Both of the other suspects are wearing their watches facing out. Her sandals could have become damaged in the car crash and she could have ditched them in the ocean. If there was a bruise created by the strap when it broke, she may have bought a new pair to cover the bruise.
Spoiler:
Hmm, looks like we have another criminal of unknown gender...

If Fukumizu (the big guy) did it, then he's making up a-whole-nother person... and yet, his girlfriend is clearly shown to us. Has Gosho ever tricked us by showing us a person in a flashback (a person whose appearance is not hidden from us) and then revealing that the person was made up? He's the only one who bought a t-shirt and shorts, and it's strange he'd just leave the raft out there.

If Oami (the thinner guy) did it, he could've just made up the story about why he had to buy that shirt, but it would mean that not only was he wearing swimsuit trunks underneath his original clothes (that got wet when he escaped the car), but that he took off his original clothes before he emerged from the water (after escaping the car)—I suppose one could say he planned on going to the beach, later, after the robbery, so he already was wearing trunks, but that doesn't seem likely. Him having two watches is suspicious... indeed, some would consider this too suspicious, as in red herring suspicious.

Kitamori (the woman) doing it would match Gosho's pattern of having the person people wouldn't typically put at the top of the suspect list (that is, except for the people who've noticed this pattern of his 8-))—in this case, one would expect the dead robber to have a male partner, and especially one whose appearance matched his, making Fukumizu the prime suspect, by that criteria. Thus, Kitamori would be the third suspect, a.k.a., the last person people would expect to be the dead robber's partner. If she is the dead robber's partner, then she would have had to take off her shoes as she escaped the car through the window (if she wasn't wearing sandals for the robbery), then tie up her shirt like that, then somehow end up with that bottom (perhaps she took someone else's towel or turned something of her own into that bottom). Her watch is the most distinctive.

Which brings us to Yusaku's instant solving of the case via pictures of the three suspects. Yukiko didn't tell him about what they'd told the police detective and Shuichi, so it wouldn't be an inconsistency in one of their stories that would lead him to figure it out—it would have to be something only a picture of them, as they are, when it was taken, that would lead him to the truth. 

Besides what they were wearing when the pictures were taken, what would most likely catch Yusaku's eye would be the watches. The watches on Fukumizu's and Oami's left hands look fairly similar, so what he would notice would either be the two watches worn by Oami, or the more distinctive watch of Kitamori's (or he could notice, as you mentioned, that she's wearing it on the inside).

So who do I think the dead robber's partner is?

First choice: Kitamori
Runner-up: Fukumizu
The "Gosho got me" choice: Oami

I wonder if Shuichi and Yusaku will both get it right, or will Shuichi get it wrong—when Yusaku's involved, he's both a provider of clarity, and a corrector or mistakes. I don't see the point of him being involved, here, unless he's going to provide something more to the case.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by Viper »

I'd say the first suspect is most likely, not only because his story of a girlfriend vanishing is fishy, but also because he is the only one who bought a shirt that hides his torso (woman's shirt is see-through). If the driver died cause he wasn't using a seatbelt, then it's safe to assume the passenger lived cause they were buckled up. But a seatbelt would leave a very distinctive bruise during the crash, one that needs to be hidden.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

Viper wrote:I'd say the first suspect is most likely... because he is the only one who bought a shirt that hides his torso (woman's shirt is see-through)... a seatbelt would leave a very distinctive bruise during the crash, one that needs to be hidden.
If Yusaku didn't figure it out from the watches, then this is probably what he took notice of.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by PirateKing »

Viper wrote:I'd say the first suspect is most likely, not only because his story of a girlfriend vanishing is fishy, but also because he is the only one who bought a shirt that hides his torso (woman's shirt is see-through). If the driver died cause he wasn't using a seatbelt, then it's safe to assume the passenger lived cause they were buckled up. But a seatbelt would leave a very distinctive bruise during the crash, one that needs to be hidden.
Spoiler:
If the first suspect is the culprit, then his alibi is a little silly, because it can easily be broken down by a phone call to his girlfriend. Least he could have done is make up an alibi without involving a third person whose testimony would be enough to pin him to the crime.
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by DCUniverseAficionado »

PirateKing wrote:
Viper wrote:I'd say the first suspect is most likely, not only because his story of a girlfriend vanishing is fishy, but also because he is the only one who bought a shirt that hides his torso (woman's shirt is see-through). If the driver died cause he wasn't using a seatbelt, then it's safe to assume the passenger lived cause they were buckled up. But a seatbelt would leave a very distinctive bruise during the crash, one that needs to be hidden.
Spoiler:
If the first suspect is the culprit, then his alibi is a little silly, because it can easily be broken down by a phone call to his girlfriend. Least he could have done is make up an alibi without involving a third person whose testimony would be enough to pin him to the crime.
Or by checking to see whether he has a girlfriend—and one who got angry at him just before this and left in her car.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by eros1607 »

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
eros1607 wrote:This is detective fiction where characters should use their skills, not rely on enemy's mistakes. We prefer enemies without mistakes, that makes them more threatening.
So Gin not seeing through Shuichi's fake death isn't a mistake, on his part? And what about him not seeing through Hidemi? Red Shirts (File 700–File 704/Episode 578–Episode 581) was the third time he considered killing her (First time, when Ethan died; second, when the BO retrieved her from the FBI). At that point, shouldn't he (and Anokata/The BO Boss, for that matter) be thinking—with the whole, "first time is random, second time is coincidence, third time is a pattern" thing that Chek mentioned—that she may be more trouble than she's worth? Isn't that reason for you (with how one mistake on Vermouth's part (and it's not going to be a mistake, really, until Ran's realization goes somewhere) makes you not take her seriously, anymore) to not take Gin seriously, anymore?

Wait... back in Contact with the Black Organization (File 380–File 383/Episode 309–Episode 311), Gin bothered to look inside the lockers to see if the person who'd set Vodka up (Shinichi/Conan) was hiding in one of them, but didn't consider that an adult with dwarfism (think Peter Dinklage) could be the one who'd set Vodka up? Isn't that a mistake that should make you not take Gin seriously?

If the bad guys never made mistakes, they'd never lose—Jodie would be dead, the Akais would be dead, Hidemi would be dead, Rei/Tooru would be dead, Shiho/Ai would be dead, Shinichi/Conan would be dead, etc. And if the good guys, also never made mistakes, things would be a true stalemate. Someone's gotta mess up.

And isn't it a skill to capitalize on/take advantage of your enemies' mistakes?

I'd say, at the end of the day, her revealing her boss' mail address to Shinichi/Conan was a far bigger mistake than her calling Ran "angel." To consider the latter mistake to be so big (as you evidently do) is to assume that, because you think Gosho's been messing up, as of late, that he's going to continue messing up until DC concludes. I say wait until all the chips are down and everything's clear. After that, if you say things like, "this wasn't worth it," or "Gosho hasn't had it since 2007 (or 2003, 2004, 2005 or 2006, take your pick)," then that'll just be one of the "sad but true" things/hard truths for you and all the other fans who say things like that, once DC ends.

How about this—if, in that case (File 954–File 957), Ran has to realize that the Azusa who came with Rei/Tooru is Vermouth, the woman who she saved Shiho/Ai from, and you got to decide how Ran would find out, how would you have her find out?
jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:Some thoughts on the case.
Spoiler:
The dead watch thief isn't wearing a watch, but all three suspects are. Makes me think that the accomplice might have actually been the mastermind behind the whole thing and was going after a particular watch, which they took with them. The accomplice did not die, meaning while escaping from the police they had the sense to wear a seat belt. Or maybe they put one on knowing that the car was going to crash and unbuckled the other thief's belt just before the crash.

Yusaku was able to solve the case from a picture of the suspects. This probably means that you can tell which one is the suspect by either the items they were wearing at the time, or the items that they bought at the store.

If the accomplice really did swim out from the car and mix in with the crowd, then their wallet would potentially be wet. Meaning they would have to wrap it in something in some attempt to keep it dry. The best thing to wrap it in would be a shirt, or something like it. This potentially eliminates the third suspect, as he really has nothing to wrap it in from before he went to the shop. His shirt was bought from the store and is still dry. Plus if he was the accomplice, wearing two watches to the scene of a crime where a watch robbery was involved would be a bit stupid if you knew about it in advance. This leaves the other two.

The first suspect's story sounds a bit weird. He claims that his girlfriend pushed him off the boat, but when he came back up for air she was gone? However she left his wallet? Why was his wallet not in his own pocket? In the few seconds it would take to re-orientate himself and emerge from the water, how did he not see or hear her jump into the water and swim away? Ignoring the story, he could have wrapped his wallet in his hoodie (or hid it in the hood) and then swam to shore. He then bought both shirt and pants and created a story to make people think that he was wearing the hoodie at the time it became wet. I noticed that his left hand is firmly clenched, I'm wondering if there may be some kind of bruise there from him bracing himself when the car hit the railing, or hit the water.

However the second suspect also seems like she would be able to do it. If she is wearing a two-piece bathing suit, she could use both her shirt and the cloth wrapped around her waist as a way of keeping a wallet dry. Afterword she could have just put the wet clothing back on. No one would ask any questions because she is soaking wet from swimming. I also noticed that her watch is on the inside of her wrist. I did a bit of research and there are a few reasons for doing so. 1) A lot of people seem to note that wearing it there is a carry over from the past where watch faces were made of crystal and people would do so to prevent from scratching it. 2) Nurses seem to do so because they can see it better while taking pulses. 3) Military seem to wear it that way so it won't reflect light from the sun; and light up and glow in the dark watch faces; both of which can give away their positions. She could be wearing her watch that way so that the light from the sun could not reflect off of it to give away her position while swimming away from the car. When swimming, the watch face on the inside of the wrist would be pointed down towards the sea floor and be less likely to reflect. Both of the other suspects are wearing their watches facing out. Her sandals could have become damaged in the car crash and she could have ditched them in the ocean. If there was a bruise created by the strap when it broke, she may have bought a new pair to cover the bruise.
Spoiler:
Hmm, looks like we have another criminal of unknown gender...

If Fukumizu (the big guy) did it, then he's making up a-whole-nother person... and yet, his girlfriend is clearly shown to us. Has Gosho ever tricked us by showing us a person in a flashback (a person whose appearance is not hidden from us) and then revealing that the person was made up? He's the only one who bought a t-shirt and shorts, and it's strange he'd just leave the raft out there.

If Oami (the thinner guy) did it, he could've just made up the story about why he had to buy that shirt, but it would mean that not only was he wearing swimsuit trunks underneath his original clothes (that got wet when he escaped the car), but that he took off his original clothes before he emerged from the water (after escaping the car)—I suppose one could say he planned on going to the beach, later, after the robbery, so he already was wearing trunks, but that doesn't seem likely. Him having two watches is suspicious... indeed, some would consider this too suspicious, as in red herring suspicious.

Kitamori (the woman) doing it would match Gosho's pattern of having the person people wouldn't typically put at the top of the suspect list (that is, except for the people who've noticed this pattern of his 8-))—in this case, one would expect the dead robber to have a male partner, and especially one whose appearance matched his, making Fukumizu the prime suspect, by that criteria. Thus, Kitamori would be the third suspect, a.k.a., the last person people would expect to be the dead robber's partner. If she is the dead robber's partner, then she would have had to take off her shoes as she escaped the car through the window (if she wasn't wearing sandals for the robbery), then tie up her shirt like that, then somehow end up with that bottom (perhaps she took someone else's towel or turned something of her own into that bottom). Her watch is the most distinctive.

Which brings us to Yusaku's instant solving of the case via pictures of the three suspects. Yukiko didn't tell him about what they'd told the police detective and Shuichi, so it wouldn't be an inconsistency in one of their stories that would lead him to figure it out—it would have to be something only a picture of them, as they are, when it was taken, that would lead him to the truth. 

Besides what they were wearing when the pictures were taken, what would most likely catch Yusaku's eye would be the watches. The watches on Fukumizu's and Oami's left hands look fairly similar, so what he would notice would either be the two watches worn by Oami, or the more distinctive watch of Kitamori's (or he could notice, as you mentioned, that she's wearing it on the inside).

So who do I think the dead robber's partner is?

First choice: Kitamori
Runner-up: Fukumizu
The "Gosho got me" choice: Oami

I wonder if Shuichi and Yusaku will both get it right, or will Shuichi get it wrong—when Yusaku's involved, he's both a provider of clarity, and a corrector or mistakes. I don't see the point of him being involved, here, unless he's going to provide something more to the case.
Maybe I'm a bit vague with my writing but what I want to express is that recently, a lot of mistakes happened in very short time (from Yusaku Cold Case) , unlike in the past (like in Vermouth or Kir arc) where mistakes were random and there were other way to find information. All the mistakes I mentioned is from late Bourbon or Rum arc, which also means a lot of information is from mistakes of enemy. God, that spoils my mood too much. This is supposed to be a detective fiction right. I don't said I demand no mistakes from enemy but too much in short time make me seriously consider Gosho's writing. There should be another way to find information and there should be moments make me feel "Wow, what a deduction". Recently, the only one made me have that feel is Jodie who found the truth about Akai when driving (let alone she realized Subaru is Akai also by Akai's mistake though). Even Bourbon had to realize the Akai's fake death plan (but he deliberately created it so that's somehow different) through Camel divulging Rukuda committed a suicide. I will appreciate more if mistakes happened at few as possible and I don't mind someone important die because that may be interesting to have "Games of Thrones" feeling in DC. You don't know who will die, that will make everything more unpredictable. A mistakes should only happen at critical times when one cannot control the whole situation, not on normal random events where deduction can lead you. Again, this is a detective fiction right?
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k11chi

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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by k11chi »

eros1607 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit vague with my writing but what I want to express is that recently, a lot of mistakes happened in very short time (from Yusaku Cold Case) , unlike in the past (like in Vermouth or Kir arc) where mistakes were random and there were other way to find information. All the mistakes I mentioned is from late Bourbon or Rum arc, which also means a lot of information is from mistakes of enemy. God, that spoils my mood too much. This is supposed to be a detective fiction right. I don't said I demand no mistakes from enemy but too much in short time make me seriously consider Gosho's writing. There should be another way to find information and there should be moments make me feel "Wow, what a deduction". Recently, the only one make me have that feel is Jodie who find the truth about Akai when driving (let alone she realized Subaru is Akai also by Akai's mistake though). Even Bourbon had to realize the Akai's fake death plan (but he deliberately created it so that's somehow different) through Camel divulging Rukuda committed a suicide. And I will appreciate more if mistakes happened at few as possible and I don't mind someone important die because that may be interesting to have "Games of Thrones" feeling in DC. You don't know who will die, that will make everything more unpredictable.
Mistakes are a big part of the genre and something that make it more interesting than perfect villains... If Gosho saw it better to let Rum make a mistake and he's ready to go through (as in has confidence and knows what he's doing) it then I don't see it as a flaw. This guy has been writing in the genre for over 20 years anyway.
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eros1607

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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by eros1607 »

k11chi wrote:
eros1607 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit vague with my writing but what I want to express is that recently, a lot of mistakes happened in very short time (from Yusaku Cold Case) , unlike in the past (like in Vermouth or Kir arc) where mistakes were random and there were other way to find information. All the mistakes I mentioned is from late Bourbon or Rum arc, which also means a lot of information is from mistakes of enemy. God, that spoils my mood too much. This is supposed to be a detective fiction right. I don't said I demand no mistakes from enemy but too much in short time make me seriously consider Gosho's writing. There should be another way to find information and there should be moments make me feel "Wow, what a deduction". Recently, the only one make me have that feel is Jodie who find the truth about Akai when driving (let alone she realized Subaru is Akai also by Akai's mistake though). Even Bourbon had to realize the Akai's fake death plan (but he deliberately created it so that's somehow different) through Camel divulging Rukuda committed a suicide. And I will appreciate more if mistakes happened at few as possible and I don't mind someone important die because that may be interesting to have "Games of Thrones" feeling in DC. You don't know who will die, that will make everything more unpredictable.
Mistakes are a big part of the genre and something that make it more interesting than perfect villains... If Gosho saw it better to let Rum make a mistake and he's ready to go through (as in has confidence and knows what he's doing) it then I don't see it as a flaw. This guy has been writing in the genre for over 20 years anyway.
Yeah, but to simply include mistakes and to include them in interesting ways are different. Mistake good if it happen with convincing reasons, not seemed forced and only for plot advancement. For example, the reaction of Rei to "zero" seemed somehow not reasonable enough. If the one who witnessed was not Conan, but Gin, everything will be different. Rei should be the one who know this more than anyone. Or "zero" has even a deeper meaning meaning to him, we don't know.
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k11chi

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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by k11chi »

eros1607 wrote:
k11chi wrote:
eros1607 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit vague with my writing but what I want to express is that recently, a lot of mistakes happened in very short time (from Yusaku Cold Case) , unlike in the past (like in Vermouth or Kir arc) where mistakes were random and there were other way to find information. All the mistakes I mentioned is from late Bourbon or Rum arc, which also means a lot of information is from mistakes of enemy. God, that spoils my mood too much. This is supposed to be a detective fiction right. I don't said I demand no mistakes from enemy but too much in short time make me seriously consider Gosho's writing. There should be another way to find information and there should be moments make me feel "Wow, what a deduction". Recently, the only one make me have that feel is Jodie who find the truth about Akai when driving (let alone she realized Subaru is Akai also by Akai's mistake though). Even Bourbon had to realize the Akai's fake death plan (but he deliberately created it so that's somehow different) through Camel divulging Rukuda committed a suicide. And I will appreciate more if mistakes happened at few as possible and I don't mind someone important die because that may be interesting to have "Games of Thrones" feeling in DC. You don't know who will die, that will make everything more unpredictable.
Mistakes are a big part of the genre and something that make it more interesting than perfect villains... If Gosho saw it better to let Rum make a mistake and he's ready to go through (as in has confidence and knows what he's doing) it then I don't see it as a flaw. This guy has been writing in the genre for over 20 years anyway.
Yeah, but to simply include mistakes and to include them in interesting ways are different. Mistake good if it happen with convincing reasons, not seemed forced and only for plot advancement. For example, the reaction of Rei to "zero" seemed somehow not reasonable enough. If the one who witnessed was not Conan, but Gin, everything will be different. Rei should be the one who know this more than anyone. Or "zero" has even a deeper meaning meaning to him, we don't know.
Yeah but that's subjective. Conan has never been one to present things in an action packed way. And yes because it was a child shouting zero that made him react that it seems ridicilous, but on the other hand it also has another meaning to it exactly because of that. And I don't think there is any deep meaning to it but instead there are multiple (nickname from childhood&nickname from being part of the secret police).
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Kleene Onigiri
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Re: Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-97X

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

Those mistakes make them human. Especially those mentioned mistakes usually involved "their weakness" aka people they care or love. Like Ran for Vermouth and Shinichi. Sera shouting Mama because she was worried. Haibara turning big in order to save the DBs (i mean, should she let them die?). And she panics and act on a whim when she panics because the BO is involved, which is a mistake, but totally normal because she's supposed to be a human being. Okiya sending a message to Jodie during the red shirt case could also have been a mistake, if the wrong person would have noticed. But he did anyway, because sometimes you need to take risks to save people you care about :P

Also in the earlier episodes Conan makes mistakes too. Like confronting Vodka in the locker room, he thought Vodka would be alone so he can take him on. But Gin appears and Conan was almost caught. Or the reason why he "found" Kir was because his tracker was stuck on her shoe, which almost led to Kogoro getting sniped.
But in those cases, the detectives have to react to their own mistakes and need to try to fix them. This lacks in the current "mistakes", because they don't think they have anything to fix. Like Sera doesn't find it that bad, that Conan knows Mary is her mother. Or Vermouth also doesn't feel threatened that Ran knows that she's that person that called her Angel and so on.

Also, if people fight or play against each other and they are on par, usually, the one that wins is the one that doesn't do as many mistakes or takes advantage of the opponents mistakes.
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