Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

[sstimson]

Ok You did not like hole one. Well her is hole two.

You mean I decided that hole one was irrelevant because you couldn't prove its existence.

while it is possible they planned for a shooting, What if instead Gin had decided to kill him another way. Were they prepared for every way?

No. I said as much before. I think if the plan went that wrong, Hidemi really would have killed Akai per reasons I explained above. To Akai and Hidemi's credit, they designed the plan so they could have a decent chance of predicting Gin's actions correctly and thus minimizing the chance the plan wouldn't work and Hidemi would have to really kill Akai.  

The rest of your post is irrelevant because it is speculation. Can you prove the poison exists? Nope, so it doesn't count as evidence and therefore I don't care. I hope you will get tired of me saying this because I am really trying to encourage you to switch your arguments to ones entirely based on provable evidence because then more people might seriously consider your theories if you base them on hard evidence.

Fine you do not care. But the Hat removal part is Important. Why did Gin unless he is a stupid as Vodka, or he wanted Kir to fool him not insisted that Kir remove Akai hat before the head shot. No hat means no way to either block the bullet or get fooled by a possible blood pack.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Time for hole number one. Gin is clearly shown to stay put until the Police car is heard. He is watching from the back. He would see if Akai moved before the police. It is possible again not shown, but while Gin is watching the back door another BO agent could be watching from a safe location the front. If that is so then Akai can not move without being seen by the BO

Uh, Gin was focused on the video feed from the camera on Rena, Gin was too far away and it was too dark for him to see much directly. Even the anime has gotten to the point where Gin thinks he could have been tricked. You can't just claim there were other spotters, either. Gin even said Akai has a "good nose" and could notice them unless they were watching from far away. He was interested in minimizing the chance Akai would notice the trap, not maximizing the ability to confirm the death.

This. Regarding the possibility of other spotters, you got to prove they exist before you can dispute someone else's evidence with them. Pure speculation doesn't cut it. That's generally how the burden of proof goes.

I also agree to chekhovs theory
But you wrote that

Jodie and the FBI don't know Conan has two phones.

Well, dunno about the whole FBI, but jodie should know that conan has 2 phones, right? Since she was with him while he took out 2 phones because he didn't know which one was ringing. And Jodie said that he is like a "double agent" (or something similar) which was a tip for conan about the haido park i think.

The double agent thing probably refers to her saying Conan has a split personality which about Conan's personality doing a 180 when he is talking over the phone to Ran. You are right about the phones though, she may have seen both, and he said he has two cells later.

Spoiler:

Even so, she didn't ask Conan for the other one though just to be safe, so I assume she hasn't thought about which of Conan's phones Akai's prints was on yet. I'll fix the theory to reflect this.

Wasn't this a plot from conan+Akai? She didn't want his phone for the fingerprints but to make a phone call, because conan sabotaged jodies phone (like you wrote).
So she didn't care what phone she would get from him at that moment she received it.

Then she wanted to compare akais fingerprints with that of the body in the van. At that moment she remembered that she got the phone that Akai touched with his right hand. And since she was in shock/surprised by the news that Akai is supposed to be dead she didn't think about the 2nd phone and whether she got the right phone with his fingerprints on it or not.

And on the other hand, Conan wanted to call a friend (agasa) and Akai stopped him in that moment. I would assume that since conan was in "conan mode" he would use the conan cell phone to call that friend and not the shinichi cell phone.

Ok You did not like hole one. Well her is hole two.

You mean I decided that hole one was irrelevant because you couldn't prove its existence.

while it is possible they planned for a shooting, What if instead Gin had decided to kill him another way. Were they prepared for every way?

No. I said as much before. I think if the plan went that wrong, Hidemi really would have killed Akai per reasons I explained above. To Akai and Hidemi's credit, they designed the plan so they could have a decent chance of predicting Gin's actions correctly and thus minimizing the chance the plan wouldn't work and Hidemi would have to really kill Akai. 

The rest of your post is irrelevant because it is speculation. Can you prove the poison exists? Nope, so it doesn't count as evidence and therefore I don't care. I hope you will get tired of me saying this because I am really trying to encourage you to switch your arguments to ones entirely based on provable evidence because then more people might seriously consider your theories if you base them on hard evidence.

Fine you do not care. But the Hat removal part is Important. Why did Gin unless he is a stupid as Vodka, or he wanted Kir to fool him not insisted that Kir remove Akai hat before the head shot. No hat means no way to either block the bullet or get fooled by a possible blood pack.

I guess there wasn't enough time to order Kir to remove the hat. Because right after Akai was shot and Gin and Vodka was grinning about his death, the police came nearer. So there was no time so Gin ordered Kir to remove evidence and to flee instead of anything else.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Fine you do not care. But the Hat removal part is Important. Why did Gin unless he is a stupid as Vodka, or he wanted Kir to fool him not insisted that Kir remove Akai hat before the head shot. No hat means no way to either block the bullet or get fooled by a possible blood pack.

Kir and Akai used a psychological trap on Gin. Gin was the one who ordered Kir to shoot Akai in the head. How is it possible to fake something that Gin decided only by himself on the spot? That's the beauty of the mind trick.

[Detective Tommy]

Don't know if this was stated, I think the scar is a burn scar.
From when the truck blew up.

[sstimson]

Fine you do not care. But the Hat removal part is Important. Why did Gin unless he is a stupid as Vodka, or he wanted Kir to fool him not insisted that Kir remove Akai hat before the head shot. No hat means no way to either block the bullet or get fooled by a possible blood pack.

Kir and Akai used a psychological trap on Gin. Gin was the one who ordered Kir to shoot Akai in the head. How is it possible to fake something that Gin decided only by himself on the spot? That's the beauty of the mind trick.

Why do you avoid by questions? Either Gin is a complete Fool for not making sure his greatest enemy is Dead Which he could have done by telling Kir to remove the hat before shooting him in the head

or

He really wants Akai alive and is only pretending to want him dead.

It does not matter if they was a 'trick' played on him or not.

These next statements come from you http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=112747#p112747

Before I begin let's make several reasonable assumptions which are all supported by canon material:
1) The boss is not an idiot. He is very cautious as Vermouth stated. Therefore he would not be reckless and make decisions where the risks outweigh the benefits. The boss would also not do things that have no meaning or purpose.
2) The organization’s MO is one that tries to maintain the Org’s secrecy: leave as little evidence behind as possible (or get rid of all witnesses), use methods which minimize the chance of failure, and don't allow situations that would publicly reveal them.
3) The organization does not want to destroy itself. (Vermouth excluded)

Question 1 - Why would the Boss use Gin to remove Akai. Gin is too personally involved and therefore the chance for failure is greater. If the Boss did that, then that would mean Contradiction1a! Org Mo failure and boss is an idiot.

Question 2 - Does Gin really Hate Akai or is just play acting. If playing acting, then that would explain why Gin did not remove any chance of being fooled and allowed himself to be fooled by Kir. But if Gin is not play acting and is not stupid, then why did he not remove all chance of Akai surviving by ordering Kir to remove the Hat before shooting. That might a total of what ten seconds?

Question 3 - and it Gin did allow akai and kir to fool him then Contradiction1b! Major Org MO failure. as well as Contradiction4b! ... the Org is trying to destroy itself. Yet you said "3) The organization does not want to destroy itself. (Vermouth excluded) In this case you need to include Gin right?

Question 4 - Why does Gin break and destroy your rule 2 above?

These clearly show from your own words that by not making sure Akai is dead all the above Contradiction to your above rules. are your rules right or is your theory wrong. If your rules are wrong then you need to remove your Contradiction from the thread this came from

[conan_ai]

Wow there seems to be a lot of talk going on here..

Anyway I think the Akai with the scar has something to do with Bourbon. (Edit by Jd-: Spoilers. This is for anime-only fans. Keep that in mind since this topic is for general discussion~)

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Sstimson, you seem to be missing the point of the mind trick entirely. The point is that Gin doesn't realize he was manipulated in that situation. Before you call him stupid for falling for it, realize that this is actually a sophisticated technique that is difficult to recognize when played well.

Finally, consider the following. If Gin wanted Kir to remove Akai's hat, that means Gin must have thought that the gunshots could be faked somehow. If he suspected that in the first place, why would he decide to have Kir shoot Akai with a handun while Gin is watching through a video camera in the dark far away from the action - excellent circumstances for gunshots to realistically be faked? Obviously, Gin didn't think the gunshots were going to be faked or he would have picked another scenario for Kir to kill Akai in where this wasn't so possible.

It seems here we are reaching the limits of Gin's insight. He's a smart guy, but even he isn't infallible and can walk into traps like the rest of the detectives in this series do.

[sstimson]

Sstimson, you seem to be missing the point of the mind trick entirely. The point is that Gin doesn't realize he was manipulated in that situation. Before you call him stupid for falling for it, realize that this is actually a sophisticated technique that is difficult to recognize when played well.

Finally, consider the following. If Gin wanted Kir to remove Akai's hat, that means Gin must have thought that the gunshots could be faked somehow. If he suspected that in the first place, why would he decide to have Kir shoot Akai with a handun while Gin is watching through a video camera in the dark far away from the action - excellent circumstances for gunshots to realistically be faked? Obviously, Gin didn't think the gunshots were going to be faked or he would have picked another scenario for Kir to kill Akai in where this wasn't so possible.

It seems here we are reaching the limits of Gin's insight. He's a smart guy, but even he isn't infallible and can walk into traps like the rest of the detectives in this series do.

That is all fine and good. But you are forgetting something. This is a test of Kir. Now if it is only a test of if she is willing to act like she is willing to kill that is one thing. But Gin is already suspicious of Kir. If he was not, why the test? And if he is already suspicious, then it still comes downs to two options. Either the results really did not matter, In which case Gin does not care or not if he is fooled. Or he expects to be fooled and played along for Feeding the Mole reason.

This is the real question. Why did Gin do it as he did? If He believes Kir is a fake, like the scene seems to suggest or there would be no test, then why, if he really wants Akai dead, did he not do more to insure it? He seems to be way too careless with someone he must suspect. Sorry to tell you this but if your crazy theory is right, then GIN wanted to be fooled and is play acting. It is too much out of character for him not to be. Remember Almost catching Conan, He stopped for some reason, again almost like he wanted Conan to get away otherwise his character would have searched EVERY locket in the building where Conan was.

Another example. Instead of just shooting Korogo and the Kids, he stalls, like he almost knows what will happen next. Maybe in reality he is another trying to bring down the Organization like Vermouth.  

[Maruku]

I've been reading this and other theories off and on as I continue to show the anime to my fiance. Because I'm too lazy to use quotes (lol), I'll just mention that Chekhov has a good point in all he's said especially on the point of Gin being a human. He's not perfect, and even though he's careful, him using the video camera likely settled his mind against the idea of a fake killing/trap. Not only that, asking someone to remove their target's hat before assassinating them is a very odd request, don't you think? I understand you may not agree with Chekhov's theory, but the points you're bringing up are very random and are very unlikely occurrences (in real life and a realistic anime [minus APTX]). Even a cautious, intelligent person is very unlikely to think to request such a thing. I'll repeat, the camera was his security against a fake assassination, if I had to guess.

Finally, a theory is just that: a theory. He's not stating this is exactly what happened, but to me, and many others, it's a pretty logical, honest-to-the-facts, and HIGHLY probable telling of what actually happened. We'll only know for sure when Gosho wants us to. Anyway, sorry if I rambled in that.

[Eve]

Well.... Since I've rewatched some eps, and took some screencaps, I'm posting them here if they can be of good use ^^
*it's from the anime, but since it's the main story plot line, I doubt Gosho or anime screenplay writer would want to change anything

Spoiler:

A pretty conveniently black windowed van passed by that took Kir's attention


Convenient accident


Kir's "It worked out this well..."



Akai not even remotely surprised

Conan asked Jodie to talk to him later, conveniently slipped her his phone... then gave the lamest excuse
   


previously: Akai's actions:

Stopped James from contacting anyone:


What he said to stop James: "counting on you"



Worried James when Akai said that:


James after:



Some caps of the scene:
Police arrived:


News people, and scene




James Really detailed reaction:


Even shot down this logical question:





Conveniently thought of something:

Which Jodie conveniently has the answer for:

Which Akai touched conveniently with with whole thumb finger

Funny he grabbed it because conan proposed to get Dr. Agasa involved, something he would never do


James's words to Jodie:


Result and Takagi's words:



Implications?


James in Jodie's car to rub it in:




Vermouth was send to check on Jodie?



Conan's reaction:



Akai's words previously:


Kir's moments:





Jodie's "someone needs to protect that girl, FBI can't because we'll be found out" line:





Okiya's thinking pose


Holmes?




And... done

[Detective Alohran]

Today I just catched up to the episode (again, but now watching every episode one by one) in which the burned Akai appears in the 13 red t-shirts case. It made me create this theory about Akai=Okiya and Bourbon=Burned Akai, and I NEEDED to check it somewhere. Happily, I found this thread and saw that my thoughts and deductions fitted, and also re-checked some of the old episodes to check some of the details here mentioned.

Just wanted to pinpoint to something:
[quote="Chekhov MacGuffin"]
    The second and perhaps more serious problem is using blanks at a close range. Although blanks lack the bullet part, the weapon will still discharge a cloud of hot gas that will burn in close range. Also, if the blank has a wad of paper or the like instead of a bullet or if there is shrapnel in the gun, it can be propelled out at high speed and be lethally driven into the body at close ranges. Akonyl pointed out that “crimped blanksâ€

[NiderMine]

Sstimson, you seem to be missing the point of the mind trick entirely. The point is that Gin doesn't realize he was manipulated in that situation. Before you call him stupid for falling for it, realize that this is actually a sophisticated technique that is difficult to recognize when played well.

Finally, consider the following. If Gin wanted Kir to remove Akai's hat, that means Gin must have thought that the gunshots could be faked somehow. If he suspected that in the first place, why would he decide to have Kir shoot Akai with a handun while Gin is watching through a video camera in the dark far away from the action - excellent circumstances for gunshots to realistically be faked? Obviously, Gin didn't think the gunshots were going to be faked or he would have picked another scenario for Kir to kill Akai in where this wasn't so possible.

It seems here we are reaching the limits of Gin's insight. He's a smart guy, but even he isn't infallible and can walk into traps like the rest of the detectives in this series do.

That is all fine and good. But you are forgetting something. This is a test of Kir. Now if it is only a test of if she is willing to act like she is willing to kill that is one thing. But Gin is already suspicious of Kir. If he was not, why the test? And if he is already suspicious, then it still comes downs to two options. Either the results really did not matter, In which case Gin does not care or not if he is fooled. Or he expects to be fooled and played along for Feeding the Mole reason.

This is the real question. Why did Gin do it as he did? If He believes Kir is a fake, like the scene seems to suggest or there would be no test, then why, if he really wants Akai dead, did he not do more to insure it? He seems to be way too careless with someone he must suspect. Sorry to tell you this but if your crazy theory is right, then GIN wanted to be fooled and is play acting. It is too much out of character for him not to be. Remember Almost catching Conan, He stopped for some reason, again almost like he wanted Conan to get away otherwise his character would have searched EVERY locket in the building where Conan was.

Another example. Instead of just shooting Korogo and the Kids, he stalls, like he almost knows what will happen next. Maybe in reality he is another trying to bring down the Organization like Vermouth. 

Gin otherwise didn't consider removing the hat as a concern because later after being killed he predicted based on his limits that will look in details in the body to make sure that he really killed .
Therefore , removing the hat is out of nature to do it .

[Commi-Ninja]

(Psst... This topic is a year and a half old.  No need to revive it.  Unless, of course, you're a gravedigger, but that's up to you.)