Okiya Subaru's True Identity
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ShinRan36
- Name: Hilo ^^
Posts: 1204
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
Guys I am sure that Okıya ıs Akaı because Conan would never be so stupıd and say "well he ıs a holmes fan he cant be a bad person". NEVER! he knows that okıya ıs akaı. he cant say ıt to haıbara maybe akaı doesnt allowed haıbara to know thıs.. and thats why haıbara was ın a "bo member ın the near feelıng" because we alll know that akaı was ın the bo.And when Ayumı told conan about the man wıth the burn mark conan get shocked because he thought " wtf?? Okıya ıs Akaı but who ıs the fake akaı??"
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shinichi1977
Posts: 68
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
Very good buildup but dissonant assumptions. Gin never plays games just plain and simply kills people. We don't know if Bourbon does actually exist. Okiya has many traits of Akai but we don't know him enough to state it as a fact, I only assume he is, being left handed, who puts them away in his pocketsConan 48:69 wrote:
Why did Okiya drink Bourbon, the possible answers are:
Nothing, it is just a coincidence
Okiya is the pyromanic who downed Bourbon for good luck before commiting arson, as mentioned by Conan in the beginning File 638.
Okiya is the Black Organization member named Bourbon due to his deduction skill.
Okiya has the big grudge to the Black Organization member named Bourbon. Okiya is possibility from FBI or CIA.
Okiya is Akai Shuichi in disguise. (Many fans hope so)
Okiya is Vermouth in disguise, that why Ai-chan is afraid to him why she saw Okiya for the first time.
If Okiya drinks Sherry instead of Bourbon, then man fans will expect he is Bourbon who are chasing Ai-chan.
No matter what, we will know in the future.
The story I think:
Maybe the story of Okiya/Bourbon going to be identical to Mega Man 7. Mega Man 7 is the debut of mystery robot named Bass, Bass mentioned to Mega Man that he was battling Dr Wily as well. Later, it revealed that Bass was apparently Dr Wily's creation.
Just like Conan trusts Okiya is a good guy, but later when Conan sees that Kudo residence, Agasa residence or Mouri Detective Agency is kaput and Ran or Ai-chan is kidnapped or serious injured by Okiya. And then Gin reveals to Conan that Okiya's true identify is the spy sends by Black Organisation, in order to investigate that did Kudo Shinichi is still alive and where is Sherry. Gin taunts Conan that he knew that Conan/Shinichi is stupid enough to trust Okiya when Okiya just say a little thing about Holmes and treat Okiya as Holmes' fan and let him stay in Kudo residence.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi: the super duper reasoning conglomeration
I thought it might be a good time to post the project I have been working where I have gathered together all the theories everyone has come up with about the identity of Okiya Subaru and systematically went through the arguments and evidence trying to prove that Okiya is Akai Shuuichi. I think I have done a pretty thorough job, but don't hesitate to tell me if I missed something so I can update it and give you credit. Of course, this theory requires Akai Shuuichi to be alive for it to work. If you want plausible theories about how CIA agent Hidemi (Kir) and Akai worked together to fake Akai's death then start reading here. If some images don't show up, it's because the images have been removed by DCTP because the English chapters are out.
Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi: the super duper reasoning conglomeration
See also the Wiki version
Index
[iurl=#Sug]Suggestive evidence that Okiya is Akai[/iurl]
[iurl=#RebBO]Rebuttals of arguments that Okiya is a member of the Black Organization[/iurl]
[iurl=#RebOth]Rebuttals of theories that Okiya is someone else[/iurl]
[iurl=#NotScar]Scar Akai is not the real Akai[/iurl]
[iurl=#Extend]Extended rebuttals concerning any argument that Okiya is not Akai.[/iurl]
Suggestive evidence that Okiya is Akai
Okiya and Akai have similar appearance and habits.
Okiya and Akai have a similar face shape and similar heights. When Ran kicked Okiya's jaw ("Paper Plane" 638), it was clear Okiya was not wearing a mask. Akai looks similar enough to Okiya that a wig and glasses are the only props needed for his disguise. He could have also had his hair straightened and dyed as well. We can't see if Okiya has the Akai-like cheekbone lines due to his hair covering that part of his face. Akai probably wears glasses with an incorrect prescription so he is forced to squint on purpose like Genta's dad did in the "Boar Scroll" case (658-660). Akai and Okiya both share the habit of putting their hands into their pockets.
Also, they both tend to wear long sleeved business-like ensembles with high collars. The high collars may be to conceal some identifying feature or necklace rather than simply being Okiya/Akai's fashion preference because, in chapter 811, Haibara attempted to look under Okiya's scarf to confirm Okiya's identity.
Okiya and Akai are both left handed.
Evidence about Akai's handedness.
Conan trusts Okiya despite Haibara's misgivings.
Conan is paranoid; his trust around Okiya would be out of character for him if there wasn't a good reason for it. He didn't trust Jodie even though he knew that she was probably an FBI agent unless she could prove that Dr. Araide was Vermouth ("The Truth Behind the Mask" 433).
Conan easily lends Okiya the keys to his house. (see the section “A Holmes fan can't be a bad person!”)
Conan trusts Okiya to help in cases that put him in close contact with both Haibara and him, like switching out the gasoline in a container for water to solve a case ("Crackle" 637), or calling him to pick up everyone when Agasa’s car broke down ("Burn" 635), etc…
Also, Conan doesn’t mind the fact that Okiya is around Haibara.
"A Holmes fan can't be a bad person!" - Conan lied to Haibara about why he trusts Okiya ("New Neighbor" 624)
"A Holmes fan can't be a bad person!" - This is a terrible excuse; Conan can’t be serious. There was an entire murder case where all the suspects were Holmes fans ("Holmes Freak Murder Case" 117-121). Conan didn't trust any of them (except Hattori but that’s besides the point). The password for the APTX data in "Reunion With the Black Corps" ("The Bullet from the Past" 241) was “Sherringford” – one of the names Sir Arthur C. Doyle considered for his protagonist before choosing “Sherlock Holmes,” a likely indication that someone in the B.O. is a fan of the detective. Conan’s expression when he lets Okiya stay next door clearly shows he has another reason for why he trusts Okiya ("New Neighbor" 624).
Haibara suspects Okiya to be someone, most likely Dai
During a car chase, Okiya said the line "Don't make that kind of face" which caused Haibara to remember that Moroboshi Dai said something similar to that in the past. After realizing this, Haibara's attitude towards Okiya changes and she begins to think about who he might really be. She allows herself to be alone with him at one point showing that she thinks he is not likely to be harmful to her. When Okiya falls asleep, Haibara takes the opportunity to try to remove his scarf and look at his collar/neck area. This indicates Haibara has decent idea of who might be. Haibara knows Akai fairly well through her sister Akemi, and perhaps more directly as Akai's infiltration mission was to get close to Shiho in order to use her prestige to gain the Organization's trust. Even if Shiho is unaware of the circumstances of Akai's betrayal, she should know from their prior interactions that her sister's lover does not harbor enmity towards her and thus is not dangerous.
Conan seems to know about Okiya’s address despite having never met him. ("Red, White and Yellow" 622) (Thanks, Sandam!)
In the "Red, White and Yellow" case (622-624), Conan seems to recognize the address Okiya was staying at despite never having met Okiya before. This reaction would make sense if Akai told Conan where he was living while in disguise. While Okiya must have lived there long enough though for the kid to recognize his flower watering habits, the passage of time in DC is difficult to judge. Also, Okiya watered the plants everyday when no one else did previously, which means the kid could notice in just a few days when the garden improved.
Ran feels like she has seen Okiya from somewhere. ("Paper Airplane" 638)
Ran feels like she has seen Okiya from somewhere. Ran has met Akai thrice where she can remember: once in New York City ("Golden Apple" 353-354), in a restaurant ("Sato's Engagement Bet" 329), and another time after the "Dark Footprint" arc (379-380). Ran's hunches are also pretty reliable: In the "Shirigami" case (646-651) she acted abnormally around the fake Shinichi despite not consciously knowing the reason.
Okiya hints to Jodie that things may not be as they seem (Quoted word for word from Abs.'s original post on the DC wiki)
When Okiya runs into Jodie at the department store and knocks her down, he tells her, "The division of fault is 50/50. You also bear some of the blame for neglecting to pay attention to your surroundings." It's not a throwaway line. As this occurred during Jodie's chase for "Shuu," aka Scar Akai, one can surmise that Okiya's intention may have been to hint, "I'm right here, you dolt."
"Okiya Subaru", "Moroboshi Dai", and "Akai Shuuichi" are all references to Mobile Suit Gundam character Char Aznable.
The “Akai” (meaning red) part of Akai’s name refers to Mobile Suit Gundam character Char Aznable’s nickname “Red comet.” “Shuuichi” is a reference to the voice actor of Char Aznable, Ikeda Shuuichi (who incidentally became Akai’s voice actor too). Moroboshi Dai, the alias Akai used while he was undercover in the Syndicate, comes from part of Char's real name, Casval Rem Deikun, with "Dei" pronounced as "Dai" (ダイ) in Japanese. In Moroboshi (諸星), the first kanji can be broken up into 言者 which when pronounced as げんしゃ (gensho) sounds very similar to the word for "phenomenon" (genshou). The second character (星) means "star". Moroboshi, read as "Star phenomenon" references falling stars or maybe comets. “Okiya Subaru” is a pun on Char Aznable’s real name which is キャスバル “Kyasubaru” (romanized as 'Casval').
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Aznable
No multi-case character has ever died in Detective Conan.
Despite the otherwise large numbers of dead people, Aoyama Gosho has never killed off anyone who has been around for more than one case, much less a protagonist. The closest Gosho has ever gotten was the death of Matsuda Jinpei in "The Trembling Police Headquarters" arc (V36-5 - V37-1, 366-373), but we knew he was dead going into the story. Gosho has had 600 chapters to set a precedent.
Okiya and Akai use similar expressions. (thanks Abs. and asanez2008)
Both Akai and Okiya refer to the organization members as wolves:
Akai ("Akai's Past" 599)
Okiya ("Silent Clash" 704)
Okiya and Akai both admonish "don't make that kind of face"
Akai ("Clash of Red and Black 602")
Okiya ("Online Client 800")
Moroboshi Dai ("Don't make that kind of face 802")
Rebuttals of arguments that Okiya is a member of the Black Organization
Okiya drinks a bottle of bourbon - Akai likes bourbon whiskey. ("Rescue" 640)
This isn’t definitive evidence and has been misleadingly used to hint that the FBI agent Jodie was Vermouth ("Who Are You?" 34-4 pg 4 (343)). Also FBI agent Camel noted that bourbon is Akai's favorite drink ("The Fated Individual" V65-3 pgs 3-4 (677)).
Okiya is smart and detective-like just like Bourbon - but so is Akai.
According to CIA agent Hidemi (Kir) Bourbon is a smart detective-like fellow who excels at gathering information. Akai is also smart and detective-like too. He managed to find James Black in the "P and A" case (32-8 32-9, 325-326) although we don't know how he did it. In "The Black Organization Versus FBI" arc (V48-10 - 49-4, 500-504), he figured out Mouri Kogoro would be a target well in advance. He noticed Hidemi was faking her coma while she was being kept in a the hospital. He came up with a good plan on how to return Hidemi to the organization. He figured out that Hidemi would likely be asked to kill him after returning to the organization to prove her loyalty and he came up with a plan in advance to realistically fake his death. Elaboration here.
Okiya triggers Haibara's black org senses - Akai does too.
Akai does too although she never explicitly says he does. It isn't surprising since he infiltrated the Black Org. before under the alias Moroboshi Dai where he received the codename Rye and worked under Gin. He freaks out Haibara in the "P and A" case (32-8 - 32-10, 325-327) and also in the "Dark Footprint" arc (38-1 pg pg 383). There were no other agents around both of these times that could cause her to feel the aura.
Conan doesn't want Okiya to learn much about Shinichi - because Conan is paranoid even around friendlies.
Conan hid all his pictures and family albums and told Ran not to talk about Shinichi around Okiya. As stated before, Conan is a paranoid person even when he is pretty sure the people he is cooperating with are friendlies. He didn't trust Jodie right up until Vermouth revealed herself ("The Truth Behind the Mask" 42-9 (433)). Limiting the number of people who know information that could get everyone around you killed is a good idea in general. The syndicate has gotten the better of the FBI in past cases and the org probably spies on the FBI heavily. Thus if it isn’t necessary, Conan would probably prefer the FBI doesn’t know his true identity.
Ran has the feeling she shouldn't talk about Shinichi with Okiya - because Akai is scary. ("Message" 639)
Ran has the feeling she shouldn't talk about Shinichi with Okiya. Akai is a intimidating person – he is described as an evil-eyed man by Conan. ("The Fake Patient" 597)
Also Akai seriously frightened Ran during their first meeting in New York which would lead to negative association. ("Golden Apple" V34-11 - 35-4 353-354) Also, she may be picking up on Akai's curiosity towards Shinichi which simply makes her nervous after Conan warned her about it.
Okiya gave a cryptic answer why his favorite color is black - because Akai worked in the Org. ("Kuroshiro-kun" 623)
Akai worked in the organization as a spy and he probably had to commit quite a few crimes in order to gain enough trust to progress up the Syndicate’s ranks. It’s actually very stressful for undercover spies. It’s no surprise why Akai would hate the color black too. Also Akai is generally a cryptic sort of person.
"Conan is letting Okiya stay at his home to spy on him" - too dangerous for Conan to try.
Haibara told Conan that she thought he was using her as bait in order to spy on Okiya. While the saying goes, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", this is a bloody ridiculous idea because Conan would be putting everyone he cares about in danger. Conan would absolutely not let a potential Black Organization operative live near Haibara since, as neighbors, they have a high chance of meeting. An Org. operative would quickly figure out Haibara was Sherry, and anyone who knows her would be murdered. Also, by letting Okiya live in the house, it is certain that Okiya will find out Shinichi is alive. Conan himself told Okiya that Shinichi was alive when loaning his house keys out. If Okiya were a B.O. agent, that would mean an inevitable death sentence for everyone Conan knows, including Ran, because the B.O. would want to erase everyone who might know Shinichi was still alive and what he was investigating since Shinichi may have left compromising evidence behind. Basically, a B.O. agent living next door who isn’t Vermouth or similar is a death sentence.
Conan previously acknowledged that his house would be one of the best places so spy on Haibara and him from ("The Full Moon and the Trap at the Banquet" V42-5 pg 12 429). It stands to reason that he might consider an ally like Akai living there a bonus despite the risk of Akai figuring out that Conan is Shinichi.
"Conan is making a mistake thinking Okiya is Akai when he isn’t" - not likely.
In general, this theory seems implausible because it depends too much on the idea that Conan is making a really dumb mistake. It would be out of character for Conan. If Conan were to think Okiya might be Akai then clearly Akai had a plan to fake his death with Hidemi’s help. The person impersonating Akai would have had to know Conan was in on it too in order to successfully fool Conan. So far the only B.O. agent known to suspect Conan is Vermouth. In "Silent Clash" (704), it was shown that Okiya is not Vermouth because they both appeared at the same time. Also, there is the basic problem of how did she or any other agent for that matter get the critical information necessary to impersonate Akai as Okiya since Akai, Conan, and Kir planned out everything in secrecy? Also, if an agent besides Vermouth managed to get ahold of this information, then Kir, Conan and Haibara would probably be dead by now.
What was up with that line of Okiya's about "I've known his face..." in 704 (V67-8 pg16)? - it was a secret message for Conan.
It was a message for Conan. Conan knows from what Okiya said that he had seen scar Akai, and Okiya's comments that, "Actually, I happened to see him on that floor. Unfortunately, it seems he wasn't who I thought he was, so I didn't talk to him. I've known his face for a very long time... There's no way I could be mistaken." You can parse his quote this way: "Actually, I happened to see that person who looked like Akai on that floor. This Akai wasn't the real Akai (since I'm the real one), and I didn't confront him. Being the real Akai, this scar Akai is obviously someone else..." Okiya is layering his conversation with a second meaning, confirming there is someone disguising as Akai for Conan's benefit, and Conan is surprised and nervous about the info since scar Akai is someone in disguise, possibly an operative from the Black Organization because they have the necessary information and motives.
Okiya said he had a promise to "her", the promise may be to Akemi
In file 810, Okiya mentioned that he had a promise with "her" that prevented him from forcing Haibara to do things against her will. In file 800, Vermouth stated she had made a promise with Bourbon, which would seem to suggest that Bourbon was Okiya. However, Akemi had left a still unknown PS in her last message to Akai. She had taken a big risk with her robbery mission, so it would be appropriate for Akemi to ask Akai to look after Shiho if the Org betrayed her.
Rebuttals of theories that Okiya is someone else
Okiya is probably NOT a third party/new character
Okiya is unlikely to be a third party because he knows about Conan's tracking glasses and the detective badges. Conan has never used the tracking glasses in front of Okiya. A third party would not be privy to Conan's gadgets. The mechanism to operate Conan's glasses isn't obvious, so only someone who knows about their existence beforehand could recognize the glasses at Agasa's and figure out how to activate the tracking function. Akai Shuuichi could have heard about the glasses in several ways. The first source is when James Black was kidnapped while he had Ayumi's detective badge. Conan used the badge to track down James Black. James was waiting to meet with Akai before he was kidnapped and drove away with Akai after he was rescued. Akai could have also heard about the tracking function from Jodie when Conan chased after Kir to prevent an assassination. Finally, Akai may also know about them from when Haibara borrowed the glasses to find Conan at the shipping yards at the climax of the Vermouth arc. He was present at the time and would have seen Haibara wearing them even though she has never worn glasses when Akai had seen her previously.
Okiya is NOT Kudo Yuusaku.
This is a much stronger theory than the Okiya is a member of the Org theory, but there are some contradictions I can come up with.
1. Okiya is left handed while Kudo Yuusaku appears to be right handed although I haven’t ruled out the possibility of him being ambidextrous.
2. If Okiya was Yuusaku, why would Conan hide information about himself and family albums and the like from his own father? It is pointless because Yuusaku already knows Conan’s secret and probably also knows Haibara's as well given that she was comfortable passing an antidote for Shinichi off to them during the London case. At the very least Yukiko knows.
3. Ran has the feeling she shouldn’t talk about Shinichi in front of Okiya ("Message" V61-9 639). Why would Shinichi’s father, even in disguise, give her those vibes?
4. It seems unusual that Prof. Agasa wouldn’t have felt like he knew Okiya from somewhere considering that Yuusaku is a close friend and old neighbor of his.
5. Okiya gives Haibara the black org vibes. Yuusaku as far as we know was never in the org and it would require a conspiracy on the part of Yuusaku to keep the knowledge of his dark past from his son. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
6. Okiya seems to recognize scar Akai ("The Bomber's Aim" V67-6 702). There is no known connection between scar Akai and Yuusaku although there definitely is one if Okiya is Akai. As in 5 it would require a conspiracy on Yuusaku’s part which to date there is no evidence of.
Okiya is NOT Kaito Kid.
Probably not since there is no evidence suggesting this is the case. Kid doesn't give Haibara the dark vibes in "Kichiemon's Crazy Mansion" case (475-478) or Kirin's Horn case (712-715) when he is disguise or in his full Kaito Kid regalia. In the anime version of the "Purple Nail Heist" (episode 515, manga chapter 61.1-4), Okiya is shown watching the heist on his TV thus solidifying Kaito’s alibi. I hope Gosho might have intervened to prevent such an error.
Scar Akai is not the real Akai
Scar Akai is right handed, not left handed like Akai.
Scar Akai used his right hand to fire a handgun and to hand back a cellphone. It is unlikely scar Akai is simply using his right hand because he injured his left. In the "Teito Bank Heist" ("Shaking Heart" V65-5 679), he easily escaped the duct tape binding his hands, yet probably did not use the same method that Jodie used because there was still duct tape over his mouth. It doesn't make much sense for him to put the duct tape back his mouth again afterwards. Removing the tape with only one hand, especially if he is using his off hand, would be difficult if the robbers are watching him. His eyes were covered so scar Akai couldn't be sure that no one was watching until the robbers pretended to be hostages which would give him only a few minutes to escape. Switching handedness after head trauma does not appear to have been documented in scientific literature. That is not to say Gosho wouldn't consider using head trauma as an excuse to switch handedness, but it means that the concept lacks a precedent.
Scar Akai's behavior does not make sense if he is Akai.
Scar Akai doesn't appear to have lost his memory
If scar Akai is the real Akai, one must assume he either has his memory or he doesn't have it. If he has his memory, Akai would absolutely not wander around in the open since it puts the undercover CIA Hidemi Hondou at risk with no gains to be made from doing so. The Black Organization's actions in the "Thirteen Red Shirts" case (V67.4-8 700-704) demonstrate the danger.
If Akai has amnesia, then it is plausible Akai would walk around in the open without knowing the danger he is in, however scar Akai's actions strongly suggest his memory is still intact. He seems to be stalking the FBI by appearing before them: something he would not do if he had lost all of his memory. Further emphasizing the point, Akai also apparently left a warning message to Jodie on her drink coaster during the events of the thirteen red shirts case. If perhaps scar Akai recognized the FBI a little and felt comfortable enough to leave Jodie a message, it is strange that he would not speak to the FBI agents since Scar Akai is clearly capable of speaking. ("Silent Clash" 704) Scar Akai also appears to recognize Chianti.("Silent Clash" 704) Would you smile at a sniper if you had no idea who you were?
These contradictions are resolved if scar Akai is someone else in disguise as Akai and is trying to gauge from the FBI's reactions whether the real Akai is dead or not
Scar Akai is faking inability to speak in front of the FBI
Scar Akai has avoided speaking in front of the FBI. Jodie assumed he lost his voice at first, but it was later proven that scar Akai is capable of speaking when he returned a phone.("Silent Clash" 704) One may assume that Scar Akai became deaf but this does not explain why when Jodie called out to him and grabbed his arm, he didn't react at all. Deafness contradicts with his correct and prompt compliance with the robber's vocal demands at the Teito bank heist and the bomber's demands at the Beika dept store. If scar Akai was deaf, he wouldn't have been able to solve the red shirts case because he wouldn't have been able to read the receipts from where he was standing to see the time of purchase. Even if scar Akai could lip read, if he was deaf he would not have been able to figure out the bank robbers' plans and know it was safe to remove his duct tape.
A more reasonable explanation is that Scar Akai is not Akai and avoided speaking because he is unable to imitate Akai's voice.
Gin's actions suggest that he doesn't think Scar Akai is the real Akai.
After Gin called Kir in the Thirteen Red Shirts case (700-704), he held a gun to her head for the duration of the stakeout. After Gin observes scar Akai leaving the department store ( "Silent Clash" 704), he gives the order for Chianti to leave, and he lowers the gun from Kir's head. While Gin might not have wanted to shoot Kir with an unsilenced gun in front of a busy department store that is filled with police, if he thought that Kir was a traitor who had helped Akai fake his death, Gin would not have lowered his gun since Kir may attempt to retaliate in some fashion now that her cover has been blown. The lowering of the gun is concession on Gin's part that he knows or strongly suspects scar Akai isn't the real Akai.
If you have any arguments against the theory beyond what is here, please check the common rebuttals thread to see if I have dealt with it already.
Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi: the super duper reasoning conglomeration
See also the Wiki version
Index
[iurl=#Sug]Suggestive evidence that Okiya is Akai[/iurl]
[iurl=#RebBO]Rebuttals of arguments that Okiya is a member of the Black Organization[/iurl]
[iurl=#RebOth]Rebuttals of theories that Okiya is someone else[/iurl]
[iurl=#NotScar]Scar Akai is not the real Akai[/iurl]
[iurl=#Extend]Extended rebuttals concerning any argument that Okiya is not Akai.[/iurl]
Suggestive evidence that Okiya is Akai
Okiya and Akai have similar appearance and habits.
Okiya and Akai have a similar face shape and similar heights. When Ran kicked Okiya's jaw ("Paper Plane" 638), it was clear Okiya was not wearing a mask. Akai looks similar enough to Okiya that a wig and glasses are the only props needed for his disguise. He could have also had his hair straightened and dyed as well. We can't see if Okiya has the Akai-like cheekbone lines due to his hair covering that part of his face. Akai probably wears glasses with an incorrect prescription so he is forced to squint on purpose like Genta's dad did in the "Boar Scroll" case (658-660). Akai and Okiya both share the habit of putting their hands into their pockets.
Also, they both tend to wear long sleeved business-like ensembles with high collars. The high collars may be to conceal some identifying feature or necklace rather than simply being Okiya/Akai's fashion preference because, in chapter 811, Haibara attempted to look under Okiya's scarf to confirm Okiya's identity.
Spoiler: V63-8 660 pg 15
Evidence about Akai's handedness.
Conan trusts Okiya despite Haibara's misgivings.
Conan is paranoid; his trust around Okiya would be out of character for him if there wasn't a good reason for it. He didn't trust Jodie even though he knew that she was probably an FBI agent unless she could prove that Dr. Araide was Vermouth ("The Truth Behind the Mask" 433).
Spoiler: V42-9 pg11
Spoiler: V42-9 pg12
Conan trusts Okiya to help in cases that put him in close contact with both Haibara and him, like switching out the gasoline in a container for water to solve a case ("Crackle" 637), or calling him to pick up everyone when Agasa’s car broke down ("Burn" 635), etc…
Also, Conan doesn’t mind the fact that Okiya is around Haibara.
"A Holmes fan can't be a bad person!" - Conan lied to Haibara about why he trusts Okiya ("New Neighbor" 624)
"A Holmes fan can't be a bad person!" - This is a terrible excuse; Conan can’t be serious. There was an entire murder case where all the suspects were Holmes fans ("Holmes Freak Murder Case" 117-121). Conan didn't trust any of them (except Hattori but that’s besides the point). The password for the APTX data in "Reunion With the Black Corps" ("The Bullet from the Past" 241) was “Sherringford” – one of the names Sir Arthur C. Doyle considered for his protagonist before choosing “Sherlock Holmes,” a likely indication that someone in the B.O. is a fan of the detective. Conan’s expression when he lets Okiya stay next door clearly shows he has another reason for why he trusts Okiya ("New Neighbor" 624).
Spoiler: V60-6 624 pg16
During a car chase, Okiya said the line "Don't make that kind of face" which caused Haibara to remember that Moroboshi Dai said something similar to that in the past. After realizing this, Haibara's attitude towards Okiya changes and she begins to think about who he might really be. She allows herself to be alone with him at one point showing that she thinks he is not likely to be harmful to her. When Okiya falls asleep, Haibara takes the opportunity to try to remove his scarf and look at his collar/neck area. This indicates Haibara has decent idea of who might be. Haibara knows Akai fairly well through her sister Akemi, and perhaps more directly as Akai's infiltration mission was to get close to Shiho in order to use her prestige to gain the Organization's trust. Even if Shiho is unaware of the circumstances of Akai's betrayal, she should know from their prior interactions that her sister's lover does not harbor enmity towards her and thus is not dangerous.
Conan seems to know about Okiya’s address despite having never met him. ("Red, White and Yellow" 622) (Thanks, Sandam!)
Spoiler: V60-3 622 pg 8
Spoiler: V60-5 623 pg 7
Spoiler: V61-8 638 pg13
Spoiler: V35-4
Spoiler: V33-1
Spoiler: V37-8 pg 1
When Okiya runs into Jodie at the department store and knocks her down, he tells her, "The division of fault is 50/50. You also bear some of the blame for neglecting to pay attention to your surroundings." It's not a throwaway line. As this occurred during Jodie's chase for "Shuu," aka Scar Akai, one can surmise that Okiya's intention may have been to hint, "I'm right here, you dolt."
"Okiya Subaru", "Moroboshi Dai", and "Akai Shuuichi" are all references to Mobile Suit Gundam character Char Aznable.
The “Akai” (meaning red) part of Akai’s name refers to Mobile Suit Gundam character Char Aznable’s nickname “Red comet.” “Shuuichi” is a reference to the voice actor of Char Aznable, Ikeda Shuuichi (who incidentally became Akai’s voice actor too). Moroboshi Dai, the alias Akai used while he was undercover in the Syndicate, comes from part of Char's real name, Casval Rem Deikun, with "Dei" pronounced as "Dai" (ダイ) in Japanese. In Moroboshi (諸星), the first kanji can be broken up into 言者 which when pronounced as げんしゃ (gensho) sounds very similar to the word for "phenomenon" (genshou). The second character (星) means "star". Moroboshi, read as "Star phenomenon" references falling stars or maybe comets. “Okiya Subaru” is a pun on Char Aznable’s real name which is キャスバル “Kyasubaru” (romanized as 'Casval').
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Aznable
No multi-case character has ever died in Detective Conan.
Despite the otherwise large numbers of dead people, Aoyama Gosho has never killed off anyone who has been around for more than one case, much less a protagonist. The closest Gosho has ever gotten was the death of Matsuda Jinpei in "The Trembling Police Headquarters" arc (V36-5 - V37-1, 366-373), but we knew he was dead going into the story. Gosho has had 600 chapters to set a precedent.
Okiya and Akai use similar expressions. (thanks Abs. and asanez2008)
Both Akai and Okiya refer to the organization members as wolves:
Akai ("Akai's Past" 599)
Spoiler: V58-2 pg6
Spoiler: V67-8 pg16
Akai ("Clash of Red and Black 602")
Spoiler: V58-5 pg15
Spoiler: V76-5 pg11
Spoiler: V76-7 pg10
Rebuttals of arguments that Okiya is a member of the Black Organization
Okiya drinks a bottle of bourbon - Akai likes bourbon whiskey. ("Rescue" 640)
Spoiler: V61-10 640 pg16
Spoiler: V34-4
Spoiler: V65-3 677 pg3-4
According to CIA agent Hidemi (Kir) Bourbon is a smart detective-like fellow who excels at gathering information. Akai is also smart and detective-like too. He managed to find James Black in the "P and A" case (32-8 32-9, 325-326) although we don't know how he did it. In "The Black Organization Versus FBI" arc (V48-10 - 49-4, 500-504), he figured out Mouri Kogoro would be a target well in advance. He noticed Hidemi was faking her coma while she was being kept in a the hospital. He came up with a good plan on how to return Hidemi to the organization. He figured out that Hidemi would likely be asked to kill him after returning to the organization to prove her loyalty and he came up with a plan in advance to realistically fake his death. Elaboration here.
Okiya triggers Haibara's black org senses - Akai does too.
Akai does too although she never explicitly says he does. It isn't surprising since he infiltrated the Black Org. before under the alias Moroboshi Dai where he received the codename Rye and worked under Gin. He freaks out Haibara in the "P and A" case (32-8 - 32-10, 325-327) and also in the "Dark Footprint" arc (38-1 pg pg 383). There were no other agents around both of these times that could cause her to feel the aura.
Spoiler: V32-9
Spoiler: V38-1
Conan hid all his pictures and family albums and told Ran not to talk about Shinichi around Okiya. As stated before, Conan is a paranoid person even when he is pretty sure the people he is cooperating with are friendlies. He didn't trust Jodie right up until Vermouth revealed herself ("The Truth Behind the Mask" 42-9 (433)). Limiting the number of people who know information that could get everyone around you killed is a good idea in general. The syndicate has gotten the better of the FBI in past cases and the org probably spies on the FBI heavily. Thus if it isn’t necessary, Conan would probably prefer the FBI doesn’t know his true identity.
Ran has the feeling she shouldn't talk about Shinichi with Okiya - because Akai is scary. ("Message" 639)
Ran has the feeling she shouldn't talk about Shinichi with Okiya. Akai is a intimidating person – he is described as an evil-eyed man by Conan. ("The Fake Patient" 597)
Spoiler: V57-11 597 pg5
Okiya gave a cryptic answer why his favorite color is black - because Akai worked in the Org. ("Kuroshiro-kun" 623)
Akai worked in the organization as a spy and he probably had to commit quite a few crimes in order to gain enough trust to progress up the Syndicate’s ranks. It’s actually very stressful for undercover spies. It’s no surprise why Akai would hate the color black too. Also Akai is generally a cryptic sort of person.
Spoiler: V60-4 623 pg7
Haibara told Conan that she thought he was using her as bait in order to spy on Okiya. While the saying goes, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", this is a bloody ridiculous idea because Conan would be putting everyone he cares about in danger. Conan would absolutely not let a potential Black Organization operative live near Haibara since, as neighbors, they have a high chance of meeting. An Org. operative would quickly figure out Haibara was Sherry, and anyone who knows her would be murdered. Also, by letting Okiya live in the house, it is certain that Okiya will find out Shinichi is alive. Conan himself told Okiya that Shinichi was alive when loaning his house keys out. If Okiya were a B.O. agent, that would mean an inevitable death sentence for everyone Conan knows, including Ran, because the B.O. would want to erase everyone who might know Shinichi was still alive and what he was investigating since Shinichi may have left compromising evidence behind. Basically, a B.O. agent living next door who isn’t Vermouth or similar is a death sentence.
Spoiler: V60-5 624 pg15
Spoiler: V65-6 680 pg5
Spoiler: V42-5 pg 12
In general, this theory seems implausible because it depends too much on the idea that Conan is making a really dumb mistake. It would be out of character for Conan. If Conan were to think Okiya might be Akai then clearly Akai had a plan to fake his death with Hidemi’s help. The person impersonating Akai would have had to know Conan was in on it too in order to successfully fool Conan. So far the only B.O. agent known to suspect Conan is Vermouth. In "Silent Clash" (704), it was shown that Okiya is not Vermouth because they both appeared at the same time. Also, there is the basic problem of how did she or any other agent for that matter get the critical information necessary to impersonate Akai as Okiya since Akai, Conan, and Kir planned out everything in secrecy? Also, if an agent besides Vermouth managed to get ahold of this information, then Kir, Conan and Haibara would probably be dead by now.
What was up with that line of Okiya's about "I've known his face..." in 704 (V67-8 pg16)? - it was a secret message for Conan.
Spoiler: V67-8 704 pg16
Okiya said he had a promise to "her", the promise may be to Akemi
Spoiler: V77-4 810 pg16
Spoiler: Clash of Red and Black
Rebuttals of theories that Okiya is someone else
Okiya is probably NOT a third party/new character
Okiya is unlikely to be a third party because he knows about Conan's tracking glasses and the detective badges. Conan has never used the tracking glasses in front of Okiya. A third party would not be privy to Conan's gadgets. The mechanism to operate Conan's glasses isn't obvious, so only someone who knows about their existence beforehand could recognize the glasses at Agasa's and figure out how to activate the tracking function. Akai Shuuichi could have heard about the glasses in several ways. The first source is when James Black was kidnapped while he had Ayumi's detective badge. Conan used the badge to track down James Black. James was waiting to meet with Akai before he was kidnapped and drove away with Akai after he was rescued. Akai could have also heard about the tracking function from Jodie when Conan chased after Kir to prevent an assassination. Finally, Akai may also know about them from when Haibara borrowed the glasses to find Conan at the shipping yards at the climax of the Vermouth arc. He was present at the time and would have seen Haibara wearing them even though she has never worn glasses when Akai had seen her previously.
Spoiler: V72-4 755 pg14
This is a much stronger theory than the Okiya is a member of the Org theory, but there are some contradictions I can come up with.
1. Okiya is left handed while Kudo Yuusaku appears to be right handed although I haven’t ruled out the possibility of him being ambidextrous.
Spoiler: V6-1 51 pg 2
Spoiler: V41-4_417_pg11
4. It seems unusual that Prof. Agasa wouldn’t have felt like he knew Okiya from somewhere considering that Yuusaku is a close friend and old neighbor of his.
5. Okiya gives Haibara the black org vibes. Yuusaku as far as we know was never in the org and it would require a conspiracy on the part of Yuusaku to keep the knowledge of his dark past from his son. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
6. Okiya seems to recognize scar Akai ("The Bomber's Aim" V67-6 702). There is no known connection between scar Akai and Yuusaku although there definitely is one if Okiya is Akai. As in 5 it would require a conspiracy on Yuusaku’s part which to date there is no evidence of.
Okiya is NOT Kaito Kid.
Probably not since there is no evidence suggesting this is the case. Kid doesn't give Haibara the dark vibes in "Kichiemon's Crazy Mansion" case (475-478) or Kirin's Horn case (712-715) when he is disguise or in his full Kaito Kid regalia. In the anime version of the "Purple Nail Heist" (episode 515, manga chapter 61.1-4), Okiya is shown watching the heist on his TV thus solidifying Kaito’s alibi. I hope Gosho might have intervened to prevent such an error.
Scar Akai is not the real Akai
Scar Akai is right handed, not left handed like Akai.
Scar Akai used his right hand to fire a handgun and to hand back a cellphone. It is unlikely scar Akai is simply using his right hand because he injured his left. In the "Teito Bank Heist" ("Shaking Heart" V65-5 679), he easily escaped the duct tape binding his hands, yet probably did not use the same method that Jodie used because there was still duct tape over his mouth. It doesn't make much sense for him to put the duct tape back his mouth again afterwards. Removing the tape with only one hand, especially if he is using his off hand, would be difficult if the robbers are watching him. His eyes were covered so scar Akai couldn't be sure that no one was watching until the robbers pretended to be hostages which would give him only a few minutes to escape. Switching handedness after head trauma does not appear to have been documented in scientific literature. That is not to say Gosho wouldn't consider using head trauma as an excuse to switch handedness, but it means that the concept lacks a precedent.
Scar Akai's behavior does not make sense if he is Akai.
Scar Akai doesn't appear to have lost his memory
If scar Akai is the real Akai, one must assume he either has his memory or he doesn't have it. If he has his memory, Akai would absolutely not wander around in the open since it puts the undercover CIA Hidemi Hondou at risk with no gains to be made from doing so. The Black Organization's actions in the "Thirteen Red Shirts" case (V67.4-8 700-704) demonstrate the danger.
If Akai has amnesia, then it is plausible Akai would walk around in the open without knowing the danger he is in, however scar Akai's actions strongly suggest his memory is still intact. He seems to be stalking the FBI by appearing before them: something he would not do if he had lost all of his memory. Further emphasizing the point, Akai also apparently left a warning message to Jodie on her drink coaster during the events of the thirteen red shirts case. If perhaps scar Akai recognized the FBI a little and felt comfortable enough to leave Jodie a message, it is strange that he would not speak to the FBI agents since Scar Akai is clearly capable of speaking. ("Silent Clash" 704) Scar Akai also appears to recognize Chianti.("Silent Clash" 704) Would you smile at a sniper if you had no idea who you were?
Spoiler: V68-5 704 pg5
Spoiler: V68-5 704 pg12
Scar Akai is faking inability to speak in front of the FBI
Scar Akai has avoided speaking in front of the FBI. Jodie assumed he lost his voice at first, but it was later proven that scar Akai is capable of speaking when he returned a phone.("Silent Clash" 704) One may assume that Scar Akai became deaf but this does not explain why when Jodie called out to him and grabbed his arm, he didn't react at all. Deafness contradicts with his correct and prompt compliance with the robber's vocal demands at the Teito bank heist and the bomber's demands at the Beika dept store. If scar Akai was deaf, he wouldn't have been able to solve the red shirts case because he wouldn't have been able to read the receipts from where he was standing to see the time of purchase. Even if scar Akai could lip read, if he was deaf he would not have been able to figure out the bank robbers' plans and know it was safe to remove his duct tape.
A more reasonable explanation is that Scar Akai is not Akai and avoided speaking because he is unable to imitate Akai's voice.
Gin's actions suggest that he doesn't think Scar Akai is the real Akai.
After Gin called Kir in the Thirteen Red Shirts case (700-704), he held a gun to her head for the duration of the stakeout. After Gin observes scar Akai leaving the department store ( "Silent Clash" 704), he gives the order for Chianti to leave, and he lowers the gun from Kir's head. While Gin might not have wanted to shoot Kir with an unsilenced gun in front of a busy department store that is filled with police, if he thought that Kir was a traitor who had helped Akai fake his death, Gin would not have lowered his gun since Kir may attempt to retaliate in some fashion now that her cover has been blown. The lowering of the gun is concession on Gin's part that he knows or strongly suspects scar Akai isn't the real Akai.
Spoiler: V68-5 File 704 pg13
If you have any arguments against the theory beyond what is here, please check the common rebuttals thread to see if I have dealt with it already.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on June 10th, 2013, 12:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Akonyl
- Community Hero
Posts: 4200
Re: Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi– the super duper reasoni
[quote="Chekhov MacGuffin"]
"Okiya Subaru" and "Akai Shuuichi" are both references to the name "Char Aznable".
The “Akaiâ€
"Okiya Subaru" and "Akai Shuuichi" are both references to the name "Char Aznable".
The “Akaiâ€
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Posts: 2684
Re: Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuuichi– the super duper reasoni
It's not a reference to Gundam, but "Takagi Wataru" is named after his voice actor ... Takagi Wataru. And there are plenty of references to classic literature. Beika ward = Baker ward from Baker Street. Haido Ward from "Jekyll and Hyde" and/or Hyde park, Teimzu river is the River Thames in London. Mouri Kogoro from Moriarty and Kogoro Akechi... Those are the easy ones. I think we have a topic about puns in DC already. Try looking for it in the general discussion section...Akonyl wrote: unless other characters are also references to gundam >_>
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on August 4th, 2009, 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AgOkami
Posts: 213
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
After reading your post there, Chekhov, I finally made up my mind. There's absolutely nothing there I can disagree on.
And about file 702:
I guess we'll find out everything within a month or two.
And about file 702:
Spoiler:
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Nyarl
- Lost Detective
Posts: 670
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
However, the Org. would probably at least wait until they could kill Shin'ichi before they kill Ran and Kogoro if they thought he were alive and would expose himself eventually. If they figure it's only Kogoro using Conan as a go between to help the FBI then the Mouri family is dead that much sooner. It would be a desperate delaying tactic when he thinks he's already in a near hopeless situation. Also, I still haven't seen a good reason why Akai's warning that the Org. wouldn't ignore Conan helping the FBI magically stopped applying when Kusuda died. Surely Org. spotters could photograph Conan fiddling with the flower pot bomb right alongside Jodie and James, and Gin seeing that would be just as bad for the Mouri family as thinking Shin'ichi were alive, worse because then they'd have no reason to delay killing them. Conan really is either that reckless or that desperate, or IMO Aoyama was just sloppy not thinking to have Conan disguise himself.Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Conan is letting Okiya stay at his home to spy on him.
While the saying goes keep your friends close and your enemies closer, this is a bloody ridiculous idea because Conan would be putting everyone he cares about in danger. There is no way that Conan would let a potential B.O. agent live near Haibara since, as neighbors, they have a high chance of meeting. A syndicate agent with any observational talent would figure out Haibara was Sherry. Anyone who knows her would probably be murdered. Also, by letting Okiya live in the house, it is certain that Okiya will find out Shinichi is alive. Conan himself basically told Okiya that Shinichi was alive when loaning his house keys out. If Okiya were a B.O. agent, that would mean an inevitable death sentence for everyone Conan knows, including Ran, because the B.O. would want to erase everyone who might know Shinichi was still alive and what he was investigating since Shinichi may have compromising left hints or the like. Basically, a B.O. agent living next door who isn’t Vermouth or similar is a death sentence.Conan previously acknowledged that his house would be one of the best places so spy on Haibara and him from. It stands to reason that he might consider an ally like Akai living there a bonus despite the risk of Akai figuring out that Conan is Shinichi.Spoiler:Spoiler:
All the person would need to know was Akai's planned fake identity from forged ID papers found where Akai was staying. The Org. agent wouldn't necessarily need to know the informants who also knew about a potential ID change (hopefully some, or it would be a waste of time, obviously), he/she would just co-opt the identity and wait for any informants to reveal themselves (and possibly any spies in the Org. by which intentionally leaked codename the informant tells "Akai" to watch out for, ie "Bourbon"). Conan would fool himself because there *was* a plan to fake Akai's death, because he doesn't really know Akai all that well, because he knew where Akai planned to stay in his new ID, and because he'd misinterpret Haibara's reactions as familiarity with Rye (though I'll grant it would be sensible for them to use some pass-phrase code Akai wouldn't be foolish enough to write down just so someone like Vermouth could easily co-opt the cover ID...) Heh, of course, some evidence for the idea would've been niceConan is making a mistake thinking Okiya is Akai when he isn’t
In general, this theory seems implausible because it depends too much on the idea that Conan is making a really dumb mistake. It would be out of character for Conan. If Conan were to think Okiya might be Akai then clearly Akai had a plan to fake his death with Hidemi’s help. The person impersonating Akai would have had to know Conan was in on it too in order to successfully fool Conan. So far the only B.O. agent known to suspect Conan is Vermouth. It is unlikely that Conan would be tricked again by Vermouth so easily. Also throughout most of the Red vs. Black arc, she has been shown with Gin rather than wandering off by herself where she could have disguised herself to eavesdrop. This presents the basic problem of how did she get the critical information necessary to impersonate Akai as Okiya since Akai, Conan, and Kir planned out everything in secrecy? Any agent other than vermouth has the same problem too. Also if an agent besides Vermouth managed to get ahold of this information, then Kir, Conan and Haibara would be dead by now.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
Assuming, that the Okiya was an agent and found out that Shinichi was alive, but didn't know Conan was Shinichi, the org might reasonably consider delaying killing everyone around Shinichi until they got more of a feel for the situation. However, once it becomes clear that Shinichi isn't stopping by regularly, there is a pretty good chance that they would use Kogoro or especially Ran to lure Shinichi out from hiding so they can kill him. And again, they may very well kill Ran and Kogoro even though the Mouris don't know many specifics if only for the reason they had been fronting for someone who was investigating the org. The death penalty might not be immediate, but it is pretty likely considering Kogoro has already been under suspicion.Nyarl wrote: However, the Org. would probably at least wait until they could kill Shin'ichi before they kill Ran and Kogoro if they thought he were alive and would expose himself eventually. If they figure it's only Kogoro using Conan as a go between to help the FBI then the Mouri family is dead that much sooner. It would be a desperate delaying tactic when he thinks he's already in a near hopeless situation. Also, I still haven't seen a good reason why Akai's warning that the Org. wouldn't ignore Conan helping the FBI magically stopped applying when Kusuda died. Surely Org. spotters could photograph Conan fiddling with the flower pot bomb right alongside Jodie and James, and Gin seeing that would be just as bad for the Mouri family as thinking Shin'ichi were alive, worse because then they'd have no reason to delay killing them. Conan really is either that reckless or that desperate, or IMO Aoyama was just sloppy not thinking to have Conan disguise himself.
Also, they would definitely investigate Professor Agasa, the neighbor who is a close friend of Shinichi. That would lead them to Haibara and assuming they could figure out the obvious, that is a very quick death sentence for anyone Haibara has been in contact with, likely extending to the Mouris as well. Heck, allowing a B.O. agent to live near Haibara at all is hugely risky since she is the surest vector to get everyone killed if they recognize her. Conan couldn't ignore that risk. He was ridiculously lucky the B.O. agent that found them out the first time (Vermouth) decided not to pursue the matter because she has her own agenda and ways of operating.
Ignoring Vermouth's knowledge, and possibly scar Akai in the bank heist affair, there has been only once incident we know about where Conan was documented by the Org as potentially helping the FBI and put under suspicion. That's the Org vs. FBI case where Conan kicked a soccer ball into the window to stop Chianti and Korn from shooting Mouri. He was nearly shot for it. Since then no one else connected with the B.O. has shown any interest in killing Conan, so we might be able to assume that Conan helping the FBI is still a secret. (I'm ignoring scar Akai for now) Also, while agents certainly could have photographed Conan with the rigged flowerpot, there is no proof they actually did do it. Conan could be more cautious, but the level of recklessness he displays is an order of magnitude lower than inviting a suspected enemy who could kill everyone you care about into your house where he will almost certainly learn dangerous secrets.
I figure Conan would have planned a "secret handshake" with Akai so he could identify who Akai was on meeting him to prevent exactly what you are describing. That's what I suspect the Holmes quote was for. I have no proof, but I think Conan planned with him, "When we meet, quote a line from Holmes so I'll know it's you." I doubt that Akai would have included that bit of knowledge in any of his identity papers. Also no one else in the FBI we know of is in on this. Akai is pretty darn careful, and the B.O. would have to be ridiculously lucky to stumble across Akai's planned forged identity. Assuming Akai is about at the same level as Conan, he would notice for sure if someone broke in and went through his papers - as long as he wasn't killed after finding this out, he would definitely inform Conan.Nyarl wrote: Conan is making a mistake thinking Okiya is Akai when he isn’t
All the person would need to know was Akai's planned fake identity from forged ID papers found where Akai was staying. The Org. agent wouldn't necessarily need to know the informants who also knew about a potential ID change (hopefully some, or it would be a waste of time, obviously), he/she would just co-opt the identity and wait for any informants to reveal themselves (and possibly any spies in the Org. by which intentionally leaked codename the informant tells "Akai" to watch out for, ie "Bourbon"). Conan would fool himself because there *was* a plan to fake Akai's death, because he doesn't really know Akai all that well, because he knew where Akai planned to stay in his new ID, and because he'd misinterpret Haibara's reactions as familiarity with Rye (though I'll grant it would be sensible for them to use some pass-phrase code Akai wouldn't be foolish enough to write down just so someone like Vermouth could easily co-opt the cover ID...) Heh, of course, some evidence for the idea would've been nice
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on August 4th, 2009, 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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shinichi1977
Posts: 68
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
Even if Okiya Subaru is Akai Shuichi, Shinichi could never agree on any sign to recognize each other if he were ever to resurface. Okiya can't know about Kudo Shinichi because whoever he is, if captured would spell the beans. But Okiya Subaru does know that Edogawa Conan helps the police and Shinichi leaves it by that. He has to because if he really is Akai he would break his cover to contact Camel and have Conan removed, and he does not want to take that risk (alas, that also would be the end of DC, too)
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soratothamax
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Posts: 899- Contact:
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
For some reason I can't believe that Okiya is Shuichi. Okiya might be another CIA member or another FBI member, or even an ex-FBI member, but I can't see him being Shuu. It's strange. But then again, I fee he's very well acquainted with Ai Haibara in some way...do you think Shuu will ever meet up with Ai again? Man, Ai was involved with all the big people in the BO......
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Nyarl
- Lost Detective
Posts: 670
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
I think Gin has more reason to suspect Conan's direct involvement than just the Kir incident. He said it himself during the Itakura incident that an adult couldn't hide in the lockers. Vodka's spotters reported a child entering the station. Conan was breathing heavily before Gin started to open his hiding spot, and we already saw Gin play dumb after hearing his target once before (yes, he also found another hair, but the warm disk was also pretty solid proof the "fox"/"fox's kid" was still there). Maybe too much of a stretch without more evidence, but I think the only reason there wasn't a bad end right there was Conan passed out long enough to get lost in a crowd later, rather than get followed back to Agasa or Mouri.Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Ignoring Vermouth's knowledge, and possibly scar Akai in the bank heist affair, there has been only once incident we know about where Conan was documented by the Org as potentially helping the FBI and put under suspicion. That's the Org vs. FBI case where Conan kicked a soccer ball into the window to stop Chianti and Korn from shooting Mouri. He was nearly shot for it. Since then no one else connected with the B.O. has shown any interest in killing Conan, so we might be able to assume that Conan helping the FBI is still a secret. (I'm ignoring scar Akai for now) Also, while agents certainly could have photographed Conan with the rigged flowerpot, there is no proof they actually did do it. Conan could be more cautious, but the level of recklessness he displays is an order of magnitude lower than inviting a suspected enemy who could kill everyone you care about into your house where he will almost certainly learn dangerous secrets.
Of course, at that point it would just be some vague "cunning fox" using some "kid", but I think Gin should have eventually learned that Kogoro was involved in the investigation of Itakura's death. I think there has to be something we don't know holding Gin back from targeting Kogoro again after they (thought they) took care of Akai. IMO, there's just too much linking Kogoro/Conan to the incidents with the trackers that even if Gin figured Akai were the "fox", he'd still figure that Kogoro knew too much. (Maybe not wanting to scare Sherry away is what's keeping Kogoro alive... But, they didn't hesitate to kill Akai who was also a likely suspect for being Sherry's "knight".)
I also wonder if Vermouth only left the Cool Guy/Angel/Sherry pics out for Jodie to see, or if Kir/whoever else went in on Org. business had a chance to see them...
Anyway I agree that by now a loyal Org. agent in Okiya's position should have reported enough for Gin/the Boss to figure things out all the way down to Conan being Shin'ichi (Pisco/Vermouth can't be the only ones who know enough about the Miyano research to see through Haibara). Just defending my ideas as not being that bad
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Blaze of Glory
Posts: 40
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
I think the reason he hasn't gone back to targeting Mouri is because he thinks he's under the FBI's protection and doing anything to chaotic will go against the Black Organization bosses wishes and draw too much to their organization. Like Gin everyone in the Black Organization is to conduct themselves in a cool and calm and calculative way. If Gin went on with gut instinct then he'd suffer the same fate as Pisco and Tequila. The Organizations members have to make sure that the information they're given is correct and there are no surprises will they pursue the target. As Gin mentioned Conan is a "fox" and a fox can be anywhere and at the same time nowhere. As Conan is trying to expose them they have to expose him. Currently, they're both somewhat even Conan has some knowledge of their organization while Gin has nothing but a hunch to on that is interfering with the BO's illegal activities. Now, that Conan has the ball in his court, it's only a matter of time until Gin reclassifies him as a bigger threat to the organization and decides to eliminate him.Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Of course, at that point it would just be some vague "cunning fox" using some "kid", but I think Gin should have eventually learned that Kogoro was involved in the investigation of Itakura's death. I think there has to be something we don't know holding Gin back from targeting Kogoro again after they (thought they) took care of Akai. IMO, there's just too much linking Kogoro/Conan to the incidents with the trackers that even if Gin figured Akai were the "fox", he'd still figure that Kogoro knew too much.
From the last chapter Gin's calm and collected facade seems to be melting away and is starting to draw a suspicion to all the strange interferences from the FBI and Conan in Beika city. To put it short and simple of his knowledge of Conan? Yes, with this new chapter he is Very
VERY
VERY close to finding out as long as Conan keeps a low profile
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dany
- Community Hero
Posts: 83
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
I think Okiya is Yusaku Kudo for many reasons:
- He lives in his own house
- Conan can recognize his father easily and thus trust him
- Okiya has good relationship with Agasa
- Conan doesn't want his privacy to be exposed to Ran/ And his privacy with Ran to be exposed to his father
- Okiya is a Holmes fan
- Okiya has great deduction skills
- He wears glasses
- He knows Ran and doesn't to fight his son's girlfriend even if he could
-...
- He lives in his own house
- Conan can recognize his father easily and thus trust him
- Okiya has good relationship with Agasa
- Conan doesn't want his privacy to be exposed to Ran/ And his privacy with Ran to be exposed to his father
- Okiya is a Holmes fan
- Okiya has great deduction skills
- He wears glasses
- He knows Ran and doesn't to fight his son's girlfriend even if he could
-...
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KaitoKid0
- Banned.
Posts: 216- Contact:
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
i also thought it could be his daddany wrote: I think Okiya is Yusaku Kudo for many reasons:
- He lives in his own house
- Conan can recognize his father easily and thus trust him
- Okiya has good relationship with Agasa
- Conan doesn't want his privacy to be exposed to Ran/ And his privacy with Ran to be exposed to his father
- Okiya is a Holmes fan
- Okiya has great deduction skills
- He wears glasses
- He knows Ran and doesn't to fight his son's girlfriend even if he could
-...
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Blaze of Glory
Posts: 40
Re: Okiya Subaru's True Identify
After the end of this chapter I just can't bring myself to think of Okiya as Akai Shuichi or a completely new character in all. That weird smile just makes him even more suspicious and makes me think of him as a BO member.