Re: question about file 700

[soratothamax]

So the entire 'Miyano' family was intruding upon the BO's funding?

What would have happened when the BO discover that they had used their facilities and resources for their own personal gain? Technically.

I remember in the Locked Bathroom murder case Ai's father said he found someone to sponsor his project. That could've been the BO, though it's not for certain.The BO felt his "ideas on science" were insane and called him "mad scientist". I think they thought he was insane because he wanted to create a drug that would raise the dead. That's a pretty insane idea.

It's just a possibility.  ;D I'm sure if the Miyanos did use anything resources on their funding, the BO saw some benefit in it....though it could be the reason the parents are dead now....

[xGinx]

I think they thought he was insane because he wanted to create a drug that would raise the dead. That's a pretty insane idea.

Mmmmm, sounds like Gosho's stealing CAPCOM's ideas >:( jk

[soratothamax]

I think they thought he was insane because he wanted to create a drug that would raise the dead. That's a pretty insane idea.

Mmmmm, sounds like Gosho's stealing CAPCOM's ideas >:( jk

lol Does seem a bit familiar.....lol jk with ya!

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

No, that's what she said they were called. She had no reason to lie about it.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying.

I thought you were trying to say before that Ai lied about her parent's nicknames being "Hell Angel" and her father "Mad Scientist". I think she was telling the truth about this... so... moving on.

But then again, I think the BO THINKS they know what the project was that Ai's father was trying to produce, but they don't really know. If some of the BO was using it to kill people, like Gin and vodka, they probably thought Ai's father was creating a weapon, and didn't recognize such affects as shrinking or de-aging, otherwise Gin and Vodka wouldn't have used it on Shinichi to kill him. Obviously Gin and Vodka didn't know about the project.

Based on the info in the official character guide, Gin is an executive member equal to Vermouth in ranking (although not the favorite.)  He would know the project's goal. Shiho herself said she didn't intend to make a poison (that would leave no trace), so it was likely that her supervisors noticed this useful side effect of the incomplete drug and decided to start using it as a poison while the research continued.

[soratothamax]

But then again, I think the BO THINKS they know what the project was that Ai's father was trying to produce, but they don't really know. If some of the BO was using it to kill people, like Gin and vodka, they probably thought Ai's father was creating a weapon, and didn't recognize such affects as shrinking or de-aging, otherwise Gin and Vodka wouldn't have used it on Shinichi to kill him. Obviously Gin and Vodka didn't know about the project.

Based on the info in the official character guide, Gin is an executive member equal to Vermouth in ranking (although not the favorite.)  He would know the project's goal. Shiho herself said she didn't intend to make a poison (that would leave no trace), so it was likely that her supervisors noticed this useful side effect of the incomplete drug and decided to start using it as a poison while the research continued.

But if Gin knew about the useful side effect of de-aging or shrinking....then he would've guessed that Shinichi could possibly shrink instead of die...so does that mean Gin already knows Shinichi and Sherry's identity, and that he knew that Shinichi could possibly be alive?

Sherry herself probably intended to make a youth drug, but I'm sure while during tests, it would have to have minor set-backs like killing the animals that she tested on instead of shrinking them, causing her to do further tests. While it was incomplete, I guess Gin could've used it as a killing weapon instead. She said most of them died, but there was a special side-effect, which is why she said she marked Shinichi down as "dead" instead of shrinking, because it interested her. If Gin knows about the project, would he have believed that all the people who used the drug were dead? Why would he give Shinichi something that possibly wouldn't kill him?

Probably to Gin, shrinking is an absurd thought....

But it's possible. sure.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

But if Gin knew about the useful side effect of de-aging or shrinking....then he would've guessed that Shinichi could possibly shrink instead of die...so does that mean Gin already knows Shinichi and Sherry's identity, and that he knew that Shinichi could possibly be alive?

Knowing the goal of the project is different than knowing all the details of the data collected so far. Gin may not know about the shrinking side effect. It isn't clear if anyone besides Sherry knows that one of her mice shrank.

Also Abs., what happened to those critiques you had? I still want them if you are willing to put them down in ink pixels...

[soratothamax]

But if Gin knew about the useful side effect of de-aging or shrinking....then he would've guessed that Shinichi could possibly shrink instead of die...so does that mean Gin already knows Shinichi and Sherry's identity, and that he knew that Shinichi could possibly be alive?

Knowing the goal of the project is different than knowing all the details of the data collected so far. Gin may not know about the shrinking side effect. It isn't clear if anyone besides Sherry knows that one of her mice shrank.

Also Abs., what happened to those critiques you had? I still want them if you are willing to put them down in ink pixels...

True, true....so true. I get what you're saying. Makes sense.

[Abs.]

Also Abs., what happened to those critiques you had? I still want them if you are willing to put them down in ink pixels...

Had gotten about 70% through with it before people actually started replying to this thread and derailing my trains of thought.    Don't worry, it still exists and I'll finish it and post it up soon enough.

[Kite]

Thought it might be interesting to give my thought on some parts ... Hope you don't mind.

Black Org Boss knowns and Speculation

Personality/Background
3) Uses alcoholic codenames.
4) The organization uses clever codenames, passwords, etc. based on mysteries and history. If the boss is behind the naming scheme then perhaps the boss has an interest in detectives and mysteries.

I wonder why they actually use alcoholic code names. It has no relation whatsoever to crows or Nanatsu no ko, and as you said in the fourth point, they usually use mystery or history codes. You could get away with a possible preference towards mystery and history from the boss, but I think it's too easy to just say he's interested in alcoholic beverages as well, and just decided to give them those code names. It looks too random in my eyes, like a kid would play around and randomly appoint some names to his/her followers. Besides, I have the impression the BO members get those names because their personality somehow correlates to the beverage.

Boss’s opinions/relations
1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he/she allows her some independence and overlooks some of her potentially dangerous behavior. It’s confusing why Vermouth is the boss’s favorite when she actively engages in behavior which is encouraging the syndicate’s downfall - like protecting Conan and allowing Ai to escape. I have a hard time believing the boss could not see her traitorous intent. Obviously Vermouth has some characteristic that makes up for her actions. (The failure to age possibility?) At the same time the leader can also command the absolute respect of a wildcard like Gin who vocally despises traitors. Why would Gin follow a person who tolerates rogue agents like Vermouth? All of this makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal. Whatever the reason, the boss clearly knows people well enough to balance these contradictory personalities and their agendas successfully.

Don't forget nobody in the organization, aside from Vermouth and Kir, knows about Conan. I don't think they even know she let Haibara run free, since Calvados killed himself. And he was the only one alive 'till then who knew who Sherry was, except for Vermouth. Since the BO seems to STILL be looking for Sherry, not knowing she's shrunk, Vermouth certainly didn't tattle about her to the boss or anyone else (which is a feat, since she only promised Conan to give up on Sherry. Which means only SHE couldn't look for her, but she could still report about her to the boss).

So count that all together, and all the BO knows is the fact that Vermouth rampaged a bit, without any clear result. She made Vodka go to a halloween party (without any explanation apparently -> ch. 429 p. 11, and where a fake Kudou Shinichi appeared), was defeated by Akai, and denied any knowledge about Shinichi (in other words: she made Vodka go on that boat trip for no apparent reason at all, as far as Gin & Vodka know. And that fake Shinichi was purely 'coincidence'). She reported to the boss via sms, but apparently didn't say who Sherry was (otherwise Haibara would've been caught long ago). All the boss replied to her sms was that she'd gotten too much freedom. Makes me wonder, what DID she report about? A plan about her trying to get Akai on her own by using Jodie?

Anyway, what I wanted to say is: I don't think Gin sees her as a possible traitor. Not much to conclude that anyway from his point of view. Plus Gin is a very paranoid man and distrusts literally everyone, since he even threatened to kill his partner Vodka when he went to get a disk without telling Gin. (ch. 383 p. 9-10) And even if Gin noticed Vermouth's traitorous inclinations, every good organization is ought to have such members, the important thing is to keep them in check so they never give in to those inclinations. And as far as the BO knows, Vermouth never did, they probably don't even know that she wants to have them destroyed. It would probably come as a huge surprise to them, seeing as Vermouth does excellent work (information gathering about Kir's whereabouts, her assassination of Jodie's parents, ...) aside from her little so-called "secrets".

Stuff about the Black Org in General

Black Org’s goal
I’m favoring the idea that immortality or anti-aging is one of the ultimate goals of the organization.

"We can be both God and Devil since we are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time" Vermouth (380.13)

I don't really understand how that quote and the immortality/anti-aging theory are connected. I'm afraid I missed the explanation somewhere. What's confusing me is the fact that you have to see the quote as one entirety, and it seems to me everyone is focusing too much on either the "raising the dead" part (= immortality) or the "against the stream of time" part (= anti-aging). Even though I don't really call raising dead people being immortal (more zombie-like, heh). And even though I don't have a decent explanation for it myself.  :P But maybe that's because it's ridiculously late over here already, because I remember thinking about it once and having created some theory, but I can't remember anymore what it was at all.


Well, I'll continue this another time, otherwise I won't have to go to bed at all. And I'd like to have slept a bit.
Ah, there's also a part about Asaga's (girl)friend further down, since that one was one of the most intriguing things on my mind. ^_^

/edit: change of plans. I'm currently experiencing the biggest disadvantages of living in a dorm. Everyone went out and came back bit by bit with a lot of noise during the night, and after that my neighbour decided to invite her boyfriend to sleep over and now they're merrily watching some idiotic series on the computer with the sound turned on. Next time I see her, I'll hyping kill her veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly by inviting her to the zoo and throwing her in the cage of the bears. I hear bears start with your extremities, so that should be a slow and painful death, enough to satisfy me.
Plus my computer is having issues as well. I really need to clear the dust out of it.
Anyway, let's get on with it.

Individual characters


Info and speculation on Vermouth/Chris Vineyard
This behavior is definitely not like normal black org behavior. She could be held “hostageâ€

[soratothamax]

Thought it might be interesting to give my thought on some parts ... Hope you don't mind.

Black Org Boss knowns and Speculation

Personality/Background
3) Uses alcoholic codenames.
4) The organization uses clever codenames, passwords, etc. based on mysteries and history. If the boss is behind the naming scheme then perhaps the boss has an interest in detectives and mysteries.

I wonder why they actually use alcoholic code names. It has no relation whatsoever to crows or Nanatsu no ko, and as you said in the fourth point, they usually use mystery or history codes. You could get away with a possible preference towards mystery and history from the boss, but I think it's too easy to just say he's interested in alcoholic beverages as well, and just decided to give them those code names. It looks too random in my eyes, like a kid would play around and randomly appoint some names to his/her followers. Besides, I have the impression the BO members get those names because their personality somehow correlates to the beverage.

Boss’s opinions/relations
1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he/she allows her some independence and overlooks some of her potentially dangerous behavior. It’s confusing why Vermouth is the boss’s favorite when she actively engages in behavior which is encouraging the syndicate’s downfall - like protecting Conan and allowing Ai to escape. I have a hard time believing the boss could not see her traitorous intent. Obviously Vermouth has some characteristic that makes up for her actions. (The failure to age possibility?) At the same time the leader can also command the absolute respect of a wildcard like Gin who vocally despises traitors. Why would Gin follow a person who tolerates rogue agents like Vermouth? All of this makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal. Whatever the reason, the boss clearly knows people well enough to balance these contradictory personalities and their agendas successfully.

Don't forget nobody in the organization, aside from Vermouth and Kir, knows about Conan. I don't think they even know she let Haibara run free, since Calvados killed himself. And he was the only one alive 'till then who knew who Sherry was, except for Vermouth. Since the BO seems to STILL be looking for Sherry, not knowing she's shrunk, Vermouth certainly didn't tattle about her to the boss or anyone else (which is a feat, since she only promised Conan to give up on Sherry. Which means only SHE couldn't look for her, but she could still report about her to the boss).

So count that all together, and all the BO knows is the fact that Vermouth rampaged a bit, without any clear result. She made Vodka go to a halloween party (without any explanation apparently -> ch. 429 p. 11, and where a fake Kudou Shinichi appeared), was defeated by Akai, and denied any knowledge about Shinichi (in other words: she made Vodka go on that boat trip for no apparent reason at all, as far as Gin & Vodka know. And that fake Shinichi was purely 'coincidence'). She reported to the boss via sms, but apparently didn't say who Sherry was (otherwise Haibara would've been caught long ago). All the boss replied to her sms was that she'd gotten too much freedom. Makes me wonder, what DID she report about? A plan about her trying to get Akai on her own by using Jodie?

Anyway, what I wanted to say is: I don't think Gin sees her as a possible traitor. Not much to conclude that anyway from his point of view. Plus Gin is a very paranoid man and distrusts literally everyone, since he even threatened to kill his partner Vodka when he went to get a disk without telling Gin. (ch. 383 p. 9-10) And even if Gin noticed Vermouth's traitorous inclinations, every good organization is ought to have such members, the important thing is to keep them in check so they never give in to those inclinations. And as far as the BO knows, Vermouth never did, they probably don't even know that she wants to have them destroyed. It would probably come as a huge surprise to them, seeing as Vermouth does excellent work (information gathering about Kir's whereabouts, her assassination of Jodie's parents, ...) aside from her little so-called "secrets".

Stuff about the Black Org in General

Black Org’s goal
I’m favoring the idea that immortality or anti-aging is one of the ultimate goals of the organization.

"We can be both God and Devil since we are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time" Vermouth (380.13)

I don't really understand how that quote and the immortality/anti-aging theory are connected. I'm afraid I missed the explanation somewhere. What's confusing me is the fact that you have to see the quote as one entirety, and it seems to me everyone is focusing too much on either the "raising the dead" part (= immortality) or the "against the stream of time" part (= anti-aging). Even though I don't really call raising dead people being immortal (more zombie-like, heh). And even though I don't have a decent explanation for it myself.  :P But maybe that's because it ridiculously late already over here, because I remember thinking about it once and having created some theory, but I can't remember it at all.



Well, I'll continue this another time, otherwise I won't have to go to bed at all. And I'd like to have slept a bit.
Ah, there's also a part about Asaga's (girl)friend further down, since that one was one of the most intriguing things on my mind. ^_^

Spoiler: not yet checked

Individual characters

Info and Speculation on Gin
Gin shows remarkable loyalty to the boss of the org, but pretty much no one else including (especially) Vermouth. Maybe he has some loyalty for Vodka as a lackey but Gin still pointed his gun at him.

Why does Gin hate Sherry so much and obsess over hunting her down?
Theories related to this must account for…
1) He clearly knows her personality very well as he can anticipate her movements despite having rather different lines of work. They clearly have a connection outside of their professions to account for knowing each other so well. They must have spent lots of time together if Gin can identify her from a single hair with conviction.

Possible relationships that appeal to the author’s plot tendencies that could account for their behavior include
1. He either crushed on her or had a romantic relationship with her. (This would make for a nice foil of the Shuuichi-Akemi relationship but the age difference is a bit overboard) A potential con is that this would make his desire to kill her seem very bitter. Also he doesn’t seem like the type of person who values others and forms emotional attachments to people.
  a. Another category of this may be that Gin liked Akemi instead, but she liked Shuu, leading to romantic frustration on his part. Gin could have easily gotten details on Ai from Akemi who probably talked about her sister a lot.
2. He may have grown up within the org as well and they may have had a friendly childhood relationship that became sour when their personalities diverged. This idea is appealing since they know so much about each other and utilizes the oft-used childhood friends plot device. It also explains why they know each other well despite having rather different adult jobs. Again, the age difference may be problematic.
  a. Another category of this may be that Gin was childhood friends with Akemi instead. Gin could have easily gotten details on Shiho from Akemi who probably talked about her sister a lot.
  b. Gin could have been friends of the parents, although he seems like he would be a bit young barring Vermouth-like aging wonkiness.
3. Her research would have helped someone he cares for deeply or something like that and he is pissed that she ran away. Gin or someone important to Gin trusted Shiho and he felt her actions betrayed that person. This idea has appeal because Gin has vocalized his abhorrence of traitors.
  a. The opposite case: although currently there is no indication of this, Gin may hate the research that Shiho worked on and by extension her, similar to Vermouth.
4. She represents someone to him.
5. She knows Gin’s weakness and that makes him unhappy.
6. He is just being fanatically loyal to the org and eliminating threats.
7. He’s just psycho.
Has Gin has been to Germany because he got his Porsche from there? I also wonder why Gin seems to tolerate Vodka, as the latter has less aptitude and tends to get caught in traps more easily. Maybe Vodka makes up for the fact that Gin has issues remembering people and faces. Gin is left handed (304)

Info and speculation on Vermouth/Chris Vineyard
Vermouth is the boss’s favorite which grants her some independence. She also appears not to age or have de-aged over some period of time. This effect and her possible resentment of it may have caused her to dislike Ai. She doesn’t seem to like the research that Ai and her parents engaged in, calling it “foolish.â€

[Kite]

Gave me alot to think about....How do you people remember all of these files at the top of your head? I often forget which file it existed in.... The exact numbers that is....Tell me your secrets

We all have excellent memory and an IQ above 120 8)

Nah, seriously, I just look it up on onemanga. As if I could remember the chapter numbers and the pages, I can't even remember where I last left the piece of paper on which I had written what I absolutely can't forget. XD

[soratothamax]

Gave me alot to think about....How do you people remember all of these files at the top of your head? I often forget which file it existed in.... The exact numbers that is....Tell me your secrets

We all have excellent memory and an IQ above 120 8)

Nah, seriously, I just look it up on onemanga. As if I could remember the chapter numbers and the pages, I can't even remember where I last left the piece of paper on which I had written what I absolutely can't forget. XD

lol interesting....

Checkov...come on fess up whats your secret?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Don't forget nobody in the organization, aside from Vermouth and Kir, knows about Conan. I don't think they even know she let Haibara run free, since Calvados killed himself. And he was the only one alive 'till then who knew who Sherry was, except for Vermouth. Since the BO seems to STILL be looking for Sherry, not knowing she's shrunk, Vermouth certainly didn't tattle about her to the boss or anyone else (which is a feat, since she only promised Conan to give up on Sherry.

Sorry, I was vague. I'm not saying the boss knows about Conan and Ai being kids. What I meant is that I think the boss would realize that it is within Vermouth's personality to harbor sympathies or engage in behavior which is counterproductive to the org. Basically the boss would notice he doesn't command her complete devotion.

I don't really understand how that quote ("We can be both God and Devil since we are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time" Vermouth (380.13) ) and the immortality/anti-aging theory are connected. I'm afraid I missed the explanation somewhere. What's confusing me is the fact that you have to see the quote as one entirety, and it seems to me everyone is focusing too much on either the "raising the dead" part (= immortality) or the "against the stream of time" part (= anti-aging).

I took it in a metaphorical sense: clawing back the long-gone past from the effects of time going by. When I first read the line, the "the dead" immediately appealed to cellular senescence. Taking the quote literally never occurred to me until Agasa mentioned zombies explicitly. Yes, my mind is strange.

As for Vermouth and the cat, the woman using English strongly was a strong indicator in my book. I figured the reason the face of the woman was avoided is because Vermouth was still Sharon at this time and the Vermouth-Sharon thing wasn't revealed until the showdown arc.
Good point about the three person meal.

Later Edit:

I wonder why they actually use alcoholic code names. It has no relation whatsoever to crows or Nanatsu no ko, and as you said in the fourth point, they usually use mystery or history codes. You could get away with a possible preference towards mystery and history from the boss, but I think it's too easy to just say he's interested in alcoholic beverages as well, and just decided to give them those code names. It looks too random in my eyes, like a kid would play around and randomly appoint some names to his/her followers. Besides, I have the impression the BO members get those names because their personality somehow correlates to the beverage.

On a similar note I made the following observation: Tottori prefecture’s symbol is derived from the first mora in Japanese for "と" combined with the picture of a flying bird, and symbolizes peace, liberty, and the advancement of the Tottori prefecture. It was enacted in 1968 to celebrate the 100th year from the first year of the Meiji Era. The symbol is black colored.

I thought this might be a source for the link between the crow symbolism and Kurayoshi/Tottori. The other crow origin I thought about was the eight-span crow from Japanese myth.
I thought there was something in the official guidebook about why Gosho chose alcohol codenames ... I used to have a scan of it bookmarked, but I don't have it anymore...

[soratothamax]

It does seem like there are a lot of hints throughout DC that point toward de-aging, or living for eternity. Lke even Shiho's name means "Eternal Youth and Beauty".

[Kleene Onigiri]

[...]
I thought there was something in the official guidebook about why Gosho chose alcohol codenames ... I used to have a scan of it bookmarked, but I don't have it anymore...

Well, I though Gosho used alcohol codenames, because alcohol isn't rotting/aging like other consumer goods (non alcoholic drinks or food etc.). But instead it is getting even better with time (wine fore example).
That would also hint towards the "de-aging" or "eternal youth" theory.

Well I never saw that official guidebook, so I don't know what was said there about the codenames.