New Member Here - A few theories

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

1. Who broke Chekhov?

?? What did I do wrong? I was only trying to ward off the scary rabid pairing people preemptively...

2. I took a few quick snaps of Okiya in the keyhole of volume 60.

Spoiler:

I suppose you can decide for yourself what color that is, and if it's the "real" color of Okiya's hair or not.

Well there is one thing it isn't- pink. Since I assume it was drawn by Gosho it's pretty official. His hair is a little reddish, but less so than Haibara's. It looks about the same as Jodie's.

Spoiler:

[Abs.]

1. Who broke Chekhov?

?? What did I do wrong? I was only trying to ward off the scary rabid pairing people preemptively...

!!
LOL I assumed they had already broken you somehow, judging by that scary Capital Letters tirade.

[soratothamax]

I'm afraid I'll have to see the cover to believe it. I quickly flipped through a couple recent covers and didn't see one which had a colored drawing of Okiya done by Gosho on it. (Note that sometimes the anime animators' art can appear on the covers in color!) As I said before, the easiest way to explain why Ran's kick didn't knock Okiya's wig off is that Akai straightened his hair and dyed it.
The rest of the argument below doesn't relate to whether Okiya is Akai, but I'll respond to it anyway.

That's funny that Akai straightened his hair and dyed it...I would be curious to know why he chose that sort of disguise. It's just funny to me.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

I was trying to say that Gosho knows we expect Akai's character to return, and will make it seem like it's going to return.

I think we are thinking of two different things.
When I talk about "Okiya's character folding its development into Akai", I mean that when a disguised character's identity is revealed, everything we learned about the person while disguised- their actions, attributes, and words- automatically "belongs to" the real identity because they are by definition the same person. Of course, the reader must take into account that the character may have done things they wouldn't normally do as part of the disguise, so the reader has to sort out how much was acting and what was the real person's personality showing through. A perfect in-manga example is Dr. Araide wondering if Vermouth had a genuinely good side or if she only meticulously mimicked the doctor's compassionate personality.
When a character gives up their disguise; they generally lose any reason to continue acting, so they revert back to how they were before. If you liked the way the alias acted, you might be disappointing. Unfortunately, no matter how much you like the disguise's attributes, you can't influence the reality that it was all an act. Similarly, wishing that Okiya was a separate person can't be used as evidence that Okiya and Akai are different people. If I were to compare it to pairings, no matter how much someone likes AixConan, it doesn't change the fact that Shinichi's current primary love interest is Ran. (NO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO HIJACK THE OKIYA THREAD WITH WHO IS BETTER FOR CONAN, WHO WILL CONAN ULTIMATELY END UP WITH, OR WHETHER OR NOT CONAN LIKES AI A LITTLE. IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THIS POINT. IT'S AN OBVIOUS AND UNDEBATABLE FACT THAT RAN IS THE PRIMARY CURRENT LOVE INTEREST AND IF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE YOU ARE DELUDING YOURSELF AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU ANYWAY. THAT IS ALL.)

Well, Vermouth was acting as someone who already had a personality. Araide was already a person who has those qualities. Careful observation of his character made Vermouth act like him. She was imitating a character we knew. IMITATION, That's different than coming up with a whole new personality for a disguise. We could've concluded that Vermouth had a genuine good side during the NEW York case. But we don't know if Vermouth really has a good side or not. She imitated Araide, but didn't act like him really. Anyone can act like someone else with careful observation, especially if she was an actress. But coming up with a whole new character, and acting upon it....that's different. Folding that totally different character into Akai is going to be a difficult thing to do...

you make your theories sound as if they are fact. Who knows. anyone could be disappointed. you might even be. It is not the same as RanxShinichi ending up together, as that is a definite prediction. Okiya being Akai is not definite. It is your theory that isn't proven by Gosho yet.

I'm not using that (me not being able to see Akai as Okiya) as an argument against the theories. But I am stating that if your theory is going to be correct in the future, I'd be very disappointed.

I feel some are wishing and hoping Akai will be Okiya, as that is also not a proven fact. your theories could just as well work toward Bourbon instead of akai, so nothing is definite.

No matter what you think about Gin's personality, you can't change the fact that Gin apparently disguised himself to some unknown degree because he was concerned that the police might be on their way.

It's not that I can't see Akai disguised, but like most characters part of the feds or police work, they don't completely change their look, they just put on a hat, some sunglasses, and a wig....

I feel if Akai put on a wig, it would've come off when Ran kicked him in the face.

The best thing for Akai would've been to drop out of sight and not dress as anyone or be anybody....as the BO probably sense other members as well as Ai does....even if they are disguised.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

That's funny that Akai straightened his hair and dyed it...I would be curious to know why he chose that sort of disguise.

People change their hair all the time. I don't see people laughing at the salons I go to.

I was trying to say that Gosho knows we expect Akai's character to return, and will make it seem like it's going to return.

Scar Akai has already happened.

Well, Vermouth was acting as someone who already had a personality. Araide was already a person who has those qualities. Careful observation of his character made Vermouth act like him. She was imitating a character we knew. IMITATION, That's different than coming up with a whole new personality for a disguise. But coming up with a whole new character, and acting upon it....that's different. Folding that totally different character into Akai is going to be a difficult thing to do...

You already said this once before and I replied to it already. This is completely off base. Bottom of the page

you make your theories sound as if they are fact.

Because I base them on facts and logic unlike the arguments you have made so far.

But I am stating that if your theory is going to be correct in the future, I'd be very disappointed.

I'll preorder the tissues.

Your theories could just as well work toward Bourbon instead of akai

*Facepalm* Are you nuts, where did you come up with that? The red link in my sig has an entire bloody section as to why Okiya isn't Bourbon.

I feel if Akai put on a wig, it would've come off when Ran kicked him in the face.

Third time saying this to you: Akai could have dyed and straightened his hair. Problem solved.

The best thing for Akai would've been to drop out of sight and not dress as anyone or be anybody....as the BO probably sense other members as well as Ai does....even if they are disguised.

There is speculation that Akemi's P.S. to Akai was to watch over Shiho. Even if it isn't, Akai is sticking around to keep an eye on the FBI agents and Jodie (he tailed Jodie to the dept. store). Just because he is in disguise doesn't mean he can't make himself useful subtlety.

[soratothamax]

That's funny that Akai straightened his hair and dyed it...I would be curious to know why he chose that sort of disguise.

People change their hair all the time. I don't see people laughing at the salons I go to.

I was trying to say that Gosho knows we expect Akai's character to return, and will make it seem like it's going to return.

Scar Akai has already happened.

Well, Vermouth was acting as someone who already had a personality. Araide was already a person who has those qualities. Careful observation of his character made Vermouth act like him. She was imitating a character we knew. IMITATION, That's different than coming up with a whole new personality for a disguise. But coming up with a whole new character, and acting upon it....that's different. Folding that totally different character into Akai is going to be a difficult thing to do...

You already said this once before and I replied to it already. This is completely off base. Bottom of the page

you make your theories sound as if they are fact.

Because I base them on facts and logic unlike the arguments you have made so far.

But I am stating that if your theory is going to be correct in the future, I'd be very disappointed.

I'll preorder the tissues.

Your theories could just as well work toward Bourbon instead of akai

*Facepalm* Are you nuts, where did you come up with that? The red link in my sig has an entire bloody section as to why Okiya isn't Bourbon.

I feel if Akai put on a wig, it would've come off when Ran kicked him in the face.

Third time saying this to you: Akai could have dyed and straightened his hair. Problem solved.

The best thing for Akai would've been to drop out of sight and not dress as anyone or be anybody....as the BO probably sense other members as well as Ai does....even if they are disguised.

There is speculation that Akemi's P.S. to Akai was to watch over Shiho. Even if it isn't, Akai is sticking around to keep an eye on the FBI agents and Jodie (he tailed Jodie to the dept. store). Just because he is in disguise doesn't mean he can't make himself useful subtlety.

Just because you are stating this on your observations that you call "facts" and "logic" from the story, when that's just what they are. YOUR observations. doesn't mean it IS a fact that Okiya is Akai. Seeing is Believing, and I'll have to see it to believe it. For all we know the new member could be right.

I know you want to be right, and that's fine. But nothing is fact unless Gosho makes it a fact.

you have all of these observations, that might not even be true. I feel that Gosho developing a character just to make him akai is a bit off for Gosho's work. I've never seen him develop a character just to be a disguise, and give it all new personality and look, but call it a disguise.

If it turns out true, please fed-ex the tissues..... I will be laughing so hard I will cry.

[mangaluva]

1. Who broke Chekhov?

?? What did I do wrong? I was only trying to ward off the scary rabid pairing people preemptively...

2. I took a few quick snaps of Okiya in the keyhole of volume 60.

Spoiler:

I suppose you can decide for yourself what color that is, and if it's the "real" color of Okiya's hair or not.

Well there is one thing it isn't- pink. Since I assume it was drawn by Gosho it's pretty official. His hair is a little reddish, but less so than Haibara's. It looks about the same as Jodie's.

Spoiler:

Ai's been said to be strawberry blonde, so it makes sense that her hair is redder; looks to me more like a normal blond, like Jodie.

Not that this means anything, i'm sure

[Key-chan]

Ai's been said to be strawberry blonde, so it makes sense that her hair is redder; looks to me more like a normal blond, like Jodie.

Not that this means anything, i'm sure

It means that everyone is related *shot*

Just because you are stating this on your observations that you call "facts" and "logic" from the story, when that's just what they are. YOUR observations. doesn't mean it IS a fact that Okiya is Akai. Seeing is Believing, and I'll have to see it to believe it. For all we know the new member could be right.

I know you want to be right, and that's fine. But nothing is fact unless Gosho makes it a fact.

you have all of these observations, that might not even be true. I feel that Gosho developing a character just to make him akai is a bit off for Gosho's work. I've never seen him develop a character just to be a disguise, and give it all new personality and look, but call it a disguise.

Dude...the entire point of DC is to try and figure out the truth before Gosho gives the answer XD Chekhov made his point by listing all the "facts" and "suppositions" and piecing the stuff together. You made yours with your own suggestions. You guys are mainly forcing each other to believe the other's theory is right and being pointlessly stubborn because neither of you are gonna give up until the other says "Fine, I believe you, now stfu" XD (Hey, I'm a stubborn prat too, I know one when I see one- now I'm just hoping you guys aren't easily offended XD)

I won't say you're wrong, I won't say your view of the outcome doesn't stand, but I do want to say that believing Akai and Okiya can't be the same because of their personalities isn't necessarily a solid argument. A good example might be Conan himself: Conan and Shinichi are one and the same, however "Conan" remains just a disguise. You might say that their personalities don't really vary, but Shinichi as Conan is forced to keep up a "cute kiddy act" so that nobody suspects him of being Shinichi. Perhaps Akai is "forced" to act like someone who enjoys things because nobody would suspect Akai to do so. Gin is a very sharp-minded person (he noticed that getting Rena back was "too easy" and that Akai probably had some plan), he'd probably be able to see through Akai in mere seconds if Akai only took on a physical disguise and kept his personality the same.

If we stay in the issue of Akai's personality, he seems to me like he's ready to do anything to take the Organization down, including doing something he'd never do in other circumstances, namely watering plants and being convivial for the sake of disguise.

...Of course, I could just be saying nonsense since I don't have any back-up evidence for my claim here and haven't re-checked anything XD



By the way...

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

  |      |
  |      |
\          /
  \      /
    \  /

[mangaluva]

Ai's been said to be strawberry blonde, so it makes sense that her hair is redder; looks to me more like a normal blond, like Jodie.

Not that this means anything, i'm sure

It means that everyone is related *shot*

And Hakuba is their father XD *joins in front of the firing squad*

Just because you are stating this on your observations that you call "facts" and "logic" from the story, when that's just what they are. YOUR observations. doesn't mean it IS a fact that Okiya is Akai. Seeing is Believing, and I'll have to see it to believe it. For all we know the new member could be right.

I know you want to be right, and that's fine. But nothing is fact unless Gosho makes it a fact.

you have all of these observations, that might not even be true. I feel that Gosho developing a character just to make him akai is a bit off for Gosho's work. I've never seen him develop a character just to be a disguise, and give it all new personality and look, but call it a disguise.

Dude...the entire point of DC is to try and figure out the truth before Gosho gives the answer XD Chekhov made his point by listing all the "facts" and "suppositions" and piecing the stuff together. You made yours with your own suggestions. You guys are mainly forcing each other to believe the other's theory is right and being pointlessly stubborn because neither of you are gonna give up until the other says "Fine, I believe you, now stfu" XD (Hey, I'm a stubborn prat too, I know one when I see one- now I'm just hoping you guys aren't easily offended XD)

I won't say you're wrong, I won't say your view of the outcome doesn't stand, but I do want to say that believing Akai and Okiya can't be the same because of their personalities isn't necessarily a solid argument. A good example might be Conan himself: Conan and Shinichi are one and the same, however "Conan" remains just a disguise. You might say that their personalities don't really vary, but Shinichi as Conan is forced to keep up a "cute kiddy act" so that nobody suspects him of being Shinichi. Perhaps Akai is "forced" to act like someone who enjoys things because nobody would suspect Akai to do so. Gin is a very sharp-minded person (he noticed that getting Rena back was "too easy" and that Akai probably had some plan), he'd probably be able to see through Akai in mere seconds if Akai only took on a physical disguise and kept his personality the same.

If we stay in the issue of Akai's personality, he seems to me like he's ready to do anything to take the Organization down, including doing something he'd never do in other circumstances, namely watering plants and being convivial for the sake of disguise.

...Of course, I could just be saying nonsense since I don't have any back-up evidence for my claim here and haven't re-checked anything XD

All agreed, though. For all we know, Okiya is actually Andy Dufresne, but I feel that the evidence is stronly in favour of Akai. That's just me.

By the way...

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

  |      |
  |      |
\          /
  \      /
    \  /

he's a ninja XDXD

[soratothamax]

Ai's been said to be strawberry blonde, so it makes sense that her hair is redder; looks to me more like a normal blond, like Jodie.

Not that this means anything, i'm sure

It means that everyone is related *shot*

Just because you are stating this on your observations that you call "facts" and "logic" from the story, when that's just what they are. YOUR observations. doesn't mean it IS a fact that Okiya is Akai. Seeing is Believing, and I'll have to see it to believe it. For all we know the new member could be right.

I know you want to be right, and that's fine. But nothing is fact unless Gosho makes it a fact.

you have all of these observations, that might not even be true. I feel that Gosho developing a character just to make him akai is a bit off for Gosho's work. I've never seen him develop a character just to be a disguise, and give it all new personality and look, but call it a disguise.

Dude...the entire point of DC is to try and figure out the truth before Gosho gives the answer XD Chekhov made his point by listing all the "facts" and "suppositions" and piecing the stuff together. You made yours with your own suggestions. You guys are mainly forcing each other to believe the other's theory is right and being pointlessly stubborn because neither of you are gonna give up until the other says "Fine, I believe you, now stfu" XD (Hey, I'm a stubborn prat too, I know one when I see one- now I'm just hoping you guys aren't easily offended XD)

I won't say you're wrong, I won't say your view of the outcome doesn't stand, but I do want to say that believing Akai and Okiya can't be the same because of their personalities isn't necessarily a solid argument. A good example might be Conan himself: Conan and Shinichi are one and the same, however "Conan" remains just a disguise. You might say that their personalities don't really vary, but Shinichi as Conan is forced to keep up a "cute kiddy act" so that nobody suspects him of being Shinichi. Perhaps Akai is "forced" to act like someone who enjoys things because nobody would suspect Akai to do so. Gin is a very sharp-minded person (he noticed that getting Rena back was "too easy" and that Akai probably had some plan), he'd probably be able to see through Akai in mere seconds if Akai only took on a physical disguise and kept his personality the same.

If we stay in the issue of Akai's personality, he seems to me like he's ready to do anything to take the Organization down, including doing something he'd never do in other circumstances, namely watering plants and being convivial for the sake of disguise.

...Of course, I could just be saying nonsense since I don't have any back-up evidence for my claim here and haven't re-checked anything XD



By the way...

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

   |      |
   |      |
\          /
   \      /
     \  /

Hey I realize I'm stubborn, I'm a Taurus what can I say.

I don't disagree with Checkhov's arguments, neither am I trying to make up my own theories. I'm just saying we can't jump on the new member just because it doesn't seem logical at first. Anything is possible. Gosho could be leading us down a goosetrap for all we know.

This was all because I tried to see it the newcomers' way.

And I said that I have to admit that I have never seen Gosho attempt to develop a character just to make him a disguise. That is new to me.

I would also find it hilarious to see Akai behind the mask behind Okiya....it's just hard not to laugh. Akai cooking and watering plants? That's funny. It's funny to imagine, not in a sarcastc way, it really is funny to me to think about.

I'm saying if Akai turns out not to be Okiya, I wouldn't be surprised. If Akai does turn out to be Okiya, I would be surprised, but can see the logic behind it all.


Conan also has interesting climbing skills in his small body, like though he is short, he can climb to the top of a counter really quickly......
He has like super abilities even for some adults his age....

[Key-chan]

Hey I realize I'm stubborn, I'm a Taurus what can I say.

And I'm a Cancer that has no idea what exactly we crabs are all about XD

I don't disagree with Checkhov's arguments, neither am I trying to make up my own theories. I'm just saying we can't jump on the new member just because it doesn't seem logical at first. Anything is possible. Gosho could be leading us down a goosetrap for all we know.

This was all because I tried to see it the newcomers' way.

And I said that I have to admit that I have never seen Gosho attempt to develop a character just to make him a disguise. That is new to me.

I would also find it hilarious to see Akai behind the mask behind Okiya....it's just hard not to laugh. Akai cooking and watering plants? That's funny. It's funny to imagine, not in a sarcastc way, it really is funny to me to think about.

I'm saying if Akai turns out not to be Okiya, I wouldn't be surprised. If Akai does turn out to be Okiya, I would be surprised, but can see the logic behind it all.

Well, Gosho does have to find new ways around things. You'd think that if he didn't we wouldn't be over 700 whooping files due to boredom XD Actually I'm thinking that maybe Gosho might be planning on doing something that nobody would have ever imagined. Like xGinx suggested a few days ago, what if Akai was the disguise and Okiya is the true face? THAT would be a brilliant twist.

Conan also has interesting climbing skills in his small body, like though he is short, he can climb to the top of a counter really quickly......
He has like super abilities even for some adults his age....

Are you kidding me? I'm nearly adult and couldn't jump that high in my life even if I practiced for the next 20 years...XD

[Abs.]

By the way...

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

   |      |
   |      |
\          /
   \      /
     \  /

Elementary, my dear Watsons.  He obviously used his super-shoes, but we didn't get to see the panel where he turned them on.

Also, in response to this thread...

Spoiler:

[xGinx]

By the way...

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

   |      |
   |      |
\          /
   \      /
     \  /

Elementary, my dear Watsons.  He obviously used his super-shoes, but we didn't get to see the panel where he turned them on.

Also, in response to this thread...

Spoiler:

1° - I m not so sure, in the second Episode he jumped all the way to the criminal face to kick him and he didn't have the shoes yet.

2° - What episode are those images from?? (the images from the second spoiler)

[Abs.]

2° - What episode are those images from?? (the images from the second spoiler)

Episode 96, the long one with the magician murder + Yukiko in the countryside with her friend

[xGinx]

2° - What episode are those images from?? (the images from the second spoiler)

Episode 96, the long one with the magician murder + Yukiko in the countryside with her friend

Thanks.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Just because you are stating this on your observations that you call "facts" and "logic" from the story, when that's just what they are. YOUR observations. doesn't mean it IS a fact that Okiya is Akai. Seeing is Believing, and I'll have to see it to believe it. For all we know the new member could be right.
I know you want to be right, and that's fine. But nothing is fact unless Gosho makes it a fact.

Okiya being a third party is completely possible; however, there should be hints in the manga that logically suggest this is the case as there was with Kir for example (the CIA was a third party at the time). You just haven't pointed any out in Okiya's case. You mostly tried to argue that Akai didn't have the personality that would let him disguise as Okiya, yet you didn't offer any evidence to support that your assessment of Akai's character was valid other than basically "I think Akai is like this and that's that." I thought your take on the personalities of Akai and Okiya was flawed and presented logical arguments in opposition to several of your points. None of this means that Okiya isn't a third person. New evidence could come up later to hint this, like mentions of the PSIA for example or Kir relaying there is a new CIA middleman in town. I haven't noticed any good indicators in that direction yet, but I am keeping my eye out..

Dude...the entire point of DC is to try and figure out the truth before Gosho gives the answer XD Chekhov made his point by listing all the "facts" and "suppositions" and piecing the stuff together. You made yours with your own suggestions. You guys are mainly forcing each other to believe the other's theory is right and being pointlessly stubborn because neither of you are gonna give up until the other says "Fine, I believe you, now stfu" XD (Hey, I'm a stubborn prat too, I know one when I see one- now I'm just hoping you guys aren't easily offended XD)

Nah, I'm thick skinned. I will admit I went over the top a little. Most of the people I spend time around IRL eschew feelings or hunches when reasoning unless they have some sort of data or logic to provide a foothold. It's hard for me to understand and communicate effectively with someone who doesn't purge subjective feelings from their arguments. Sorry Sora and Key for making the thread uncomfortable.

Spoiler:

Is anyone else impressed by Conan's super-jump powers?

  |      |
  |      |
\          /
  \      /
    \  /

He should have been a basketball player instead of a soccer/football one. In the last panel he doesn't even have the shoes on.

Spoiler: