Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
The biggest question for me would be why would Atsushi had to fake his death? The same goes to Elena, if she's alive.
Edit: @AICHAN: This would be very shocking and interesting, if Atsushi would betray his own family. I really like the theory of him being the boss, because it would be very shocking. I mean, who would expect that Atsushi ordered to kill both of his daughters? However, as a BO's member, it would be interesting too, if he's alive. I agree, I want to know more about Ai's parents and what Elena meant by 'have to leave' honestly I don't think she meant 'die', but she planned to go somewhere in fact. Gosho said in interview that
Spoiler:
immortality is not Bo's goal
. However, if Atsushi's Rum, then it could be connected.
could it be that this person is someone called chris vineyard and is vermouth's boy (since chris can be male or female) who succeeded the first boss (vermouth's husband)?
greenlight1994 wrote:could it be that this person is someone called chris vineyard and is vermouth's boy (since chris can be male or female) who succeeded the first boss (vermouth's husband)?
It's doubtful. Chris Vineyard and Sharon Vineyard are both identities created by Vermouth and are actually the same person.
A highly possible theory for Miyano Atsuishi to be the Anokata. In file 434, Vermouth says to Haibara, "If you want to blame, blame your parents who took over this foolish research." Maybe she meant Atsuishi being the Boss?
We believe in ordinary acts of bravery, in the courage that drives one person to stand up for another. ~Dauntless Manifesto, Divergent by Veronica Roth
Apparently, the world is not a wish-granting factory. ~Augustus Waters, The Fault in Our Stars by John Green
There is actually the flaw in the theory of Atsushi being the boss, even though it would be so interesting for him to be the boss. Atsushi was the childhood friend of Dejima. In file 423, page 10, Dejima said, "I was Prof. Miyano's childhood playmate. I haven't met him for 30 years already. Dejima was 54 in the current time line and since he was Atsushi's childhood playmate, I will assume their age is either the same or there is only small difference, so Atsushi, 30 years ago would be 24 years old; he could be little older/younger.
The project started 50 years ago, so the boss started the organization, then. Atsushi would be 4 years old, then. There is a possibility that Atsushi's father is the boss. All right 'crazy' theory just came to my mind. Atsushi's father is the boss and 50 years, he either shrank or stopped aging. Atsushi was aware of his father condition and 20 years after his father shrank/stopped aging, Atsushi started to work on the project. Like I said, before, Atsushi should be 24 years old, maybe little older or younger, so it would be right age for him to start the project. Before that, Atsushi could do the right research.
Atsushi could be Rum, then as it was mentioned Rum's close to the boss.
If I would have to choose between Atsushi's dad being shrank or stop aging, I would say stop aging. If the boss shrank, then IMO the boss should consider that Shiho escaped from the organization, because she shrank, at least. I know it sounds ridiculous, but if the boss shrank and his goal is to create the drug, which allow him to age again, then he should take into the account that there is the possibility to create the drug which would shrink, but then again I don't know what exact words the boss heard after Shiho escaped. He could be just told she escaped without mentioning about handcuffs not being open. I actually wonder how Gin and others explained to each other about handcuffs being closed; Shiho opening the handcuffs and and closing them again?
The other thing that bother me is that Elena on her tapes to Shiho said, "My lab mates are getting really excited about it, they say it's like a dream drug." It doesn't sound like they creating the drug, which would make one person to age again, though on the other hand creating the drug which would allow you to age again after your aging being frozen or stop your aging would be definitely worth to call a 'a dream drug'. You can control the time of how long you live that actually reminds of what Ai said in file 191 page 11, "You can't complain about time going by. If anyone tries to change it life will punish them". She could refer to what happened to her and her parents. They all tried to create the drug that messed up with the time. There could actually two types of drugs: one making a person to stop aging and the other would allow you to age again, for example, someone at age of 25 would take the drug, which allow him to stop aging and after 5-10 years, he take the drug, which allow him to age again, so people wouldn't notice that that person stopped aging. That someone may repeat this thing again, for example, at the age of 50, then basically that someone has 10-20 extra years of living, which allow him to do more things in life time. Though, it could be just one drug, which slower down your aging process, but then again people would notice if someone would age slower, I think.
I also want to confirm one thing from the Gosho's interview. I will use spoiler box for it.
Spoiler:
Gosho said in the interview that the immortality is not BO's goal. Did he say that youthfulness and longevity aren't BO's goal, as well? If the longevity is not BO's goal, then I guess the theory above wouldn't work as it is about the drug making people to live longer. I also think, Gosho mentioned in his interview that eternal youthfulness is not BO's goal. If that the case, longevity could work as it is not the same what eternal youthfulness.
Now time to think how Vermouth would fit in this storyline of Atsushi's father being the boss. I will use again the spoiler box, 898 file spoilers:
Spoiler:
Rei said to Vermouth, "To think you are the boss's...". If Vermouth and Atsushi's dad stopped aging at the same time, then I imagine, they were similar age, when they stopped aging.If Atsushi's dad is the boss, then I cannot imagine, Vermouth being his wife and thus being Atsushi's mother and Shiho's grandmother, but who knows.
The same goes with Vermouth's being mother of Atsushi's dad (god, she would be like great-grandmother for Shiho).
We cannot forgot that Atsushi's had to have a wife, so what happened to her? Did she just die at some point or maybe she's Vermouth's in fact.
Of course, Vermouth may have the other relation to the boss than being his mother/wife or Rei wasn't actually going to say, "...you are the boss's mother/wife/daughter/cousin, etc." It could be for example, "...you are the boss' first member, who stopped aging along with him" or something like that. Vermouth could work together with Atsushi's dad on whatever, it caused them to stop aging. I honestly am more into theory Vermouth being related somehow to the boss either being his wife/mother, etc than just be his partner and possibly his childhood friend, as well.
I mentioned already on this forum that I wouldn't like the boss to be some random person. I know Atsushi's dad is not completely random as he is Shiho's grandfather, but still. I was wondering why we didn't see neither Atsushi's nor Elena's faces, if we see the boss' face somewhere, before, then if Atsushi resembles his father, then it could be a big hint about who the boss is and the reason, Gosho haven't shown Elena's face, was because it would be suspicious to show a face of one parent, but not another. However, I don't have idea who of characters we saw before, could be Atsushi's dad and thus boss. If Atsushi's dad stopped aging 50 years ago, then I guess he would be like in his 20s or 30s.
I also start to think that maybe we haven't seen the boss face at all. I didn't read all novels of Sherlock Holmes, besides 'Study in Scarlet', but didn't Moriarty and Sherlock meet only in one novel? Maybe, Gosho wants to do the same thing and Conan may first meet the boss in the last volume.
soul_dreamer wrote:There is actually the flaw in the theory of Atsushi being the boss, even though it would be so interesting for him to be the boss. Atsushi was the childhood friend of Dejima. In file 423, page 10, Dejima said, "I was Prof. Miyano's childhood playmate. I haven't met him for 30 years already. Dejima was 54 in the current time line and since he was Atsushi's childhood playmate, I will assume their age is either the same or there is only small difference, so Atsushi, 30 years ago would be 24 years old; he could be little older/younger.
The project started 50 years ago, so the boss started the organization, then. Atsushi would be 4 years old, then. There is a possibility that Atsushi's father is the boss. All right 'crazy' theory just came to my mind. Atsushi's father is the boss and 50 years, he either shrank or stopped aging. Atsushi was aware of his father condition and 20 years after his father shrank/stopped aging, Atsushi started to work on the project. Like I said, before, Atsushi should be 24 years old, maybe little older or younger, so it would be right age for him to start the project. Before that, Atsushi could do the right research.
Atsushi could be Rum, then as it was mentioned Rum's close to the boss.
If I would have to choose between Atsushi's dad being shrank or stop aging, I would say stop aging. If the boss shrank, then IMO the boss should consider that Shiho escaped from the organization, because she shrank, at least. I know it sounds ridiculous, but if the boss shrank and his goal is to create the drug, which allow him to age again, then he should take into the account that there is the possibility to create the drug which would shrink, but then again I don't know what exact words the boss heard after Shiho escaped. He could be just told she escaped without mentioning about handcuffs not being open. I actually wonder how Gin and others explained to each other about handcuffs being closed; Shiho opening the handcuffs and and closing them again?
The other thing that bother me is that Elena on her tapes to Shiho said, "My lab mates are getting really excited about it, they say it's like a dream drug." It doesn't sound like they creating the drug, which would make one person to age again, though on the other hand creating the drug which would allow you to age again after your aging being frozen or stop your aging would be definitely worth to call a 'a dream drug'. You can control the time of how long you live that actually reminds of what Ai said in file 191 page 11, "You can't complain about time going by. If anyone tries to change it life will punish them". She could refer to what happened to her and her parents. They all tried to create the drug that messed up with the time. There could actually two types of drugs: one making a person to stop aging and the other would allow you to age again, for example, someone at age of 25 would take the drug, which allow him to stop aging and after 5-10 years, he take the drug, which allow him to age again, so people wouldn't notice that that person stopped aging. That someone may repeat this thing again, for example, at the age of 50, then basically that someone has 10-20 extra years of living, which allow him to do more things in life time. Though, it could be just one drug, which slower down your aging process, but then again people would notice if someone would age slower, I think.
I also want to confirm one thing from the Gosho's interview. I will use spoiler box for it.
Spoiler:
Gosho said in the interview that the immortality is not BO's goal. Did he say that youthfulness and longevity aren't BO's goal, as well? If the longevity is not BO's goal, then I guess the theory above wouldn't work as it is about the drug making people to live longer. I also think, Gosho mentioned in his interview that eternal youthfulness is not BO's goal. If that the case, longevity could work as it is not the same what eternal youthfulness.
Now time to think how Vermouth would fit in this storyline of Atsushi's father being the boss. I will use again the spoiler box, 898 file spoilers:
Spoiler:
Rei said to Vermouth, "To think you are the boss's...". If Vermouth and Atsushi's dad stopped aging at the same time, then I imagine, they were similar age, when they stopped aging.If Atsushi's dad is the boss, then I cannot imagine, Vermouth being his wife and thus being Atsushi's mother and Shiho's grandmother, but who knows.
The same goes with Vermouth's being mother of Atsushi's dad (god, she would be like great-grandmother for Shiho).
We cannot forgot that Atsushi's had to have a wife, so what happened to her? Did she just die at some point or maybe she's Vermouth's in fact.
Of course, Vermouth may have the other relation to the boss than being his mother/wife or Rei wasn't actually going to say, "...you are the boss's mother/wife/daughter/cousin, etc." It could be for example, "...you are the boss' first member, who stopped aging along with him" or something like that. Vermouth could work together with Atsushi's dad on whatever, it caused them to stop aging. I honestly am more into theory Vermouth being related somehow to the boss either being his wife/mother, etc than just be his partner and possibly his childhood friend, as well.
I mentioned already on this forum that I wouldn't like the boss to be some random person. I know Atsushi's dad is not completely random as he is Shiho's grandfather, but still. I was wondering why we didn't see neither Atsushi's nor Elena's faces, if we see the boss' face somewhere, before, then if Atsushi resembles his father, then it could be a big hint about who the boss is and the reason, Gosho haven't shown Elena's face, was because it would be suspicious to show a face of one parent, but not another. However, I don't have idea who of characters we saw before, could be Atsushi's dad and thus boss. If Atsushi's dad stopped aging 50 years ago, then I guess he would be like in his 20s or 30s.
I also start to think that maybe we haven't seen the boss face at all. I didn't read all novels of Sherlock Holmes, besides 'Study in Scarlet', but didn't Moriarty and Sherlock meet only in one novel? Maybe, Gosho wants to do the same thing and Conan may first meet the boss in the last volume.
as long as there is a drug that controls aging in this matter, even atsushi could be the boss!!!(so u missed a point there) And I doubt Rei was gonna say anything about freezed aging, since that would open a new way of thinking to him and might help in on figuring out conans identity and shiho's survival!!! otherwise, nice ideas on the whole BO goal discussion! !! ^^
I still think that them literally raising the dead would be too much unreal stuff and unrelated to the whole Aptosis research(that is about growth hormones and stuff rather than anything about resurrection).
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
If Atsushi would be able to control his aging, then why he would need to start BO in the first place, to create more of this drugs, if we assume that he had no longer information about whatever it made him to stop aging/shrinking.
The other thing that coming to my mind is Atsushi shrank 50 years ago to the age of a child, but he ages normally. However if that the case and if Vermouth also shrank, then shouldn't she age normally like Atsushi. Or maybe they both aging but very slow.
I'm still seeing flaws in Atsushi being the boss, but I won't exclude this idea.
About Rei: If he would say to Vermouth, for example, you're the boss' wife and if Rei knows that BO started 50 years ago, then shouldn't he find weird that Vemouth is the wife of an old man. Rei doesn't know who the boss is, but if he knows when BO started to work on the project, then it wouldn't be hard to figure out how roughly old the boss would be. Of course, it would be different if Vermouth is daughter/granddaughter. I personally doubt that. I think that the boss is half-Japanese, at least and if Vermouth would be the boss' daughter, then she should have some Japanese features, I think.
I actually thinking that the BO may simply work on one drug, which slower the aging and thus extend the lifespan. I think people still could fool others with their age. I met the woman, who was 50 years old and I would never said she's 50. She looked like 30 for me. If we assume that the drug slower your aging process twice, then if someone would take the drug at age 20, then at age 40, he would be 30, but she/he still could tell others that she/he is still 40. However, after 50 years, that person should be 70 years, but she/he would be 45, which I guess, it would be harder to deceive others with your aging, but who knows.
The other thing I wonder, whom Elena and her lab mates wanted this drug for? From her tapes, it didn't sound like the drug would be just for one person (the boss), but more people could benefit from it.
If the boss and Vermouth stopped aging, then maybe Elena and Atsushi founded this fascinating. However, they knew that not being able to age would actually bring more harm than good. They worked on the drug that would allow Vermouth and the boss to age again, but at the same time, they wanted to create the drug would expand the lifespan. Vermouth said to Ai, "Don't hate me, hate your foolish parents for starting this experiment". She could mean that they started to work on the experiment that would expand people's lifespan. Vermouth may hate Ai's parents, because they used her and the boss' condition of not aging to start this project, maybe they even used Vermouth for their experiment.
However, if that the case, then why Vermouth hates the project of extending the lifespan and the boss is all right with it, otherwise, he wouldn't allow Miyano's to work on this project. Well maybe he just wanted to age again and he didn't mind the project, because in the end it would allow him to age.
I also don't think it's raising the dead. However, I still cannot explain to my self the 'Since we're trying to raise the dead' part from Vermouth's quote. The first part is, "We can be of God and the Devil", could imply to how they want to control the age. I mean after all God decides when you die (If you believe in God of course), so being able to control how long you live by extending your lifespan you you could say you are both God and the Devil, because no one has such power, but them.
The last part of the quote is 'against the stream time', which could imply to how this project can make people live longer and thus they're going against the stream of time as they live longer than they normally would.
I only have the problem with the middle part, "We're trying to raise the dead". The only thing that comes to my mind is that it could refer to the years that a human wouldn't be able to live, if they age normally, for example if humans' lifespan would be 80 years old, then they would die at that age, but if they would be able to expand their lifespan, then they would get this extra years of living. "Raise the dead" could mean that raise the dead time of a humans' lifespan.
Of course Vermouth told this quote to Itakura, who was ordered to work on some program. We don't know if it is the same project as Miyano or not, but IMO these two projects should have some connection with each other, at least. I'm really interested what was the purpose of this program.
When we read Vermouth's quote about raising the dead and Itakura's quote about how he won't finish this project for the sake of humanity, it seems that they really talking about raising the dead. It might not be raising someone from the dead, who is dead for long time, but it could basically raising someone from the dead, who just died and their body didn't start decomposing, yet. However what would be the point of raising from dead? To take control over the Japan if not the world. Well it would mean that the boss is another of those freaks, who want to control the world.
I wouldn't say the age of the project is really that good of an indicator of who the boss could or couldn't be. The boss may be a Pisco-aged person who has run the Organization for more than 50 years, true, but the Organization could just as easily have gone through several changes of leadership over that period of time with a younger member taking over as the new boss following the death or overthrow of the previous one without the need to justify it with anti-aging shenanigans.
As far as Atsuchi, I doubt he's the original boss; if he is the boss now, he became it much later. I also do not think his father is involved at all. 30 years ago, he was an unpopular scientist whose research nobody took seriously. Dejima said that after he found somebody to sponsor him, he cut ties with everybody, moved to an unknown research facility, and gave away his father's house. As Haibara points out and I'm inclined to believe, this behavior seems like this is the point at which he joined the Organization.
I also can't see the Organization simply giving away the boss's house to civilians. In the unlikely event that they did, they'd have Organization members hanging around the place for some time after, but nothing suspicious was noted until Atsuchi visited with his family under Organization surveillance ten years later.
I don't mind if the boss would turn out to be an old man, but honestly, I would prefer the boss to be just one person without any changes of leadership or either the first boss was grandfather/father of someone we know and now the boss is their son. It's of course if we assume that the boss is a male.
I really hope that the boss will be someone we would never expect to be and if the boss is not the character we know, then there could be something interesting about the boss, at least, for example, he's related to Vermouth and he's stuck in the child form. Though, I would still prefer the boss to be a character we know.
soul_dreamer wrote:I don't mind if the boss would turn out to be an old man, but honestly, I would prefer the boss to be just one person without any changes of leadership or either the first boss was grandfather/father of someone we know and now the boss is their son. It's of course if we assume that the boss is a male.
I really hope that the boss will be someone we would never expect to be and if the boss is not the character we know, then there could be something interesting about the boss, at least, for example, he's related to Vermouth and he's stuck in the child form. Though, I would still prefer the boss to be a character we know.
gosho said that if the producer or something had published, aired, the full detail of the story script, during the vermouth arc, or something that gosho had sent, the fans might've been able to figure out who the boss is....does he mean that we would know if the boss is fe/male/child/old or could he have meant his whole identity? If so, it would mean that the boss has really been fully introduced by name at least, for us to be able to figure out his identity!!!!
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
Yes, I've also heard about it. Gosho said in one of his interview that he gave the full name somewhere in the manga, though we don't know is the boss appeared in the person.
I remember someone suggesting Karasuma Renya as the boss since he is the only person who has 'crow'(karasu) in his name.
And in some fic I read, the boss was the fake-blind old man from the Night Baron case. I don't remember his name anymore...
Didn't Gosho say sometime that the Organization also has an official name but if he were to tell it, we'd know who the boss is? So shouldn't we take a look on the owners/heirs of some big companies? We got a lot of them in the first twenty volumes...
The Eleventh Doctor wrote:Never ignore coincidence. Unless you are busy. Then always ignore the coincidence.
The Org had some sort of hangout at the top of the Daikoku (written with the kanji "big black", 大黒) Building in the Mantendo case. The surname Daikoku appears later in the register in the Mermaids case (again 大黒, which has been also read as Ōguro, another valid reading, cf. the Viz manga), as the name Rentaro Daikoku. I don't think this is a coincidence.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke
