Bourbon / Amuro Tohru's personality, history, and true allegiance

[Jd-]

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Analysis of Instances in which Amuro was "Bad"

• Amuro appeared in public as Scar Akai which drew out Black Organization snipers who head their guns trained on average civilians. (Thirteen Red Shirts)
In this instance: This one, especially, I don't find to be very evil, especially for someone acting with their own interests. In fact, him appearing at the end and essentially taunting Chianti is pretty indicative of his nonchalant attitude toward the Black Organization's interests and is pretty good supporting evidence of him really not being on their side, in the end. He knows that their snipers are highly trained and aren't going to take a shot unless it's at Akai (him), so I don't think he was really pushing any barriers here. The general public wasn't really in any danger at all from the Black Org in this situation. In fact, their entire involvement in this case is entirely centered on Amuro not telling them what he was doing (as is often the case), so you could again say, "This guy really isn't with the evil guys." Whether he's good, bad, or good-bad, he clearly isn't simply on the evil side.

• Amuro doesn't intervene when a suspect he knows to be innocent is half a step from destroying his exonerating evidence because he was testing Kogoro. (Amuro's intro case)
In this instance: I don't see Amuro as being diabolical or anything like that here. He has a bigger mission than just some random crime. Even if the evidence had been destroyed, he would get more information out of that than just seeing this one criminal put behind bars. Ultimately, though, we have to consider that Amuro felt confident that the right criminal would be put behind bars and this was a unique opportunity to get some information. I would say this is something that I could see Akai doing if he were in a similar situation. If anything, this instance is meant to show that Amuro is a litttle more permissive of playing outside the rules to get what he wants than other characters we've met to this point (not including Akai)--a special sort of red herring, to make us think he's evil, when in fact it's just showing that he's "good-bad".

• Amuro noticed that Conan was alone with a murderer and considered that Conan might have been kidnapped, yet said nothing about it until others realized Conan and the murder suspect were gone. (Detctives' Nocturne)
In this instance: I'm going to re-read this case before commenting, as I don't remember the specifics well enough to comment either way. I'll update this afterward.

• Amuro willingly turned over Shiho Miyano's location to the Organization when he could have pretended he never saw it and didn't have to. (Cabin Trap) And once on the train, Amuro was going to violently assault "Shiho" in order to drag her out of the luggage car. (Mystery Train)
In this instance: If my perception of this case holds, I don't think Amuro had any intention of Shiho dying on that train or as a result of being on it, as evidenced by the fact his plan was entirely different from that of the Organization. The Organization's plan would have definitely, 100% killed Shiho but also dozens if not hundreds of civilians if it had succeeded. Instead, his direct intervention in preventing their plan from taking place saved dozens if not hundreds of lives. We don't know what he intended to do once he got Shiho in the helicopter alive, which was not in any plan the Organization even knew of. All of this could have been a way of saving her and helping her to safety or help her fake her death, possibly due to him being indebted to Elena and Akemi. We could be looking at a situation where Akemi asked both Amuro and Akai to watch over her sister, which would be very interesting. Nonetheless, in this case, revealing Haibara's location ultimately led to Amuro immediately acting against the Organization's (supposedly) carefully laid plan, so one can definitely speculate exactly what his end-means were. He clearly did not want to kill dozens of innocents and, most likely (in my view), had no intention of actually hurting Sherry. (For more information, see my other post) At worst, I would say Amuro was fooled by someone in the Organization into thinking the Miyano family is responsible for whatever ills are in his past, but I'm not really inclined toward that.

• Amuro was going to run over an elementary school teacher with his car in order to hospitalize her because it was a convenient strategy to lure out some FBI agents. He could very well have killed the woman who's only crime was being a friend of Jodie's. Keep in mind it wasn't Vermouth's idea because Vermouth didn't know the plan until Amuro explained it later. (Jodie's friend case)
In this instance: I'm really not convinced that Conan is right in this case. If he was, I definitely do not think Amuro intended to kill the poor woman. Way too much evidence would be left behind by this. For all of his careful calculation lately, doing something like this seems very unnecessarily braindead. If he intended to really run her over, I expect the explanation will be something along the lines of him carefully doing so in order to only give her some bruises and maybe a fracture, but something she could fully recover from. To me, this is the only dedicedly evil thing--if true--that Amuro has ever actually done.

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Analysis of Instances in which Amuro was "Good"

• Helps solve various cases, mostly as an assistant to another detective like Conan or Kogoro, but sometimes solo.
In this instance: Amuro has helped put more bad guys behind bars than some of the police officers in the series (a sign!?). To me, Amuro has always seemed like someone who has respect for the rules (or at least the fact they exist) but doesn't really play by them. That doesn't make him bad; it just makes him someone who wants to do the right thing, as he sees it, even if he has to dabble in some bad along the way. Again, that's just how it's always seemed to me, so feel free to debate.

• Rescues Conan from being killed by shooting a hostage taker (Teito bank heist)
• Rescues Conan from a hostage taker by crashing his car. (Detectives' Nocturne)
• Rescues Conan and the Detective Boys when they are trapped in a truck (Cat in truck case)
In this instance: Of course, these are the instances that stick out most of Amuro being a good guy. Promises or not, the fact that he went out of his way to save Conan more than any other character (especially in such a short amount of time) is a pretty good indicator that he's not an evil person. He's not hesitated to do the right thing when faced with these dilemmas in nearly every instance, and has put himself on the line more than once even though he never had to do so.

• Leaves a toothpick at Date's grave on his death anniversary (Takagi Kidnapping)
In this instance: This is one of the biggest clues about Amuro. It could be showing that he is purely good and trained with the police before going undercover, or he could have lost faith in the police after something went wrong. One way or the other, Date clearly had a very defined definition of justice and--by all indications--was emblematic of a great police officer. The fact that Amuro still admires him is pretty telling of how he feels about justice in general, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think he's someone who thinks the world should burn but instead that, maybe, justice isn't so black and white and sometimes you have to do a little more than what's allowed to set things right. That's just my speculation but it's how the character appears, to me.

• Doctors Conan after he gets nailed in the head by a tennis racket (Tennis case)
In this instance: Promise or not, Amuro really didn't have to do this, which I think is really just illustrative of his humanistic nature. He's not a bad guy; he's just a good person who has been through some hard times and sees the world in a different way than most. Seeing a child, especially a promising one, get injured like that led him to help out without any malevolence or ulterior motive in mind.

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My Conclusion:

Amuro has done more perceivable good than outright bad, and what bad he has done seems very ambiguous as to what his actual intentions and end-goals were. In various instances, he has--deliberately or otherwise--directly acted against the interests of the Black Organization and--deliberately or otherwise--placed himself opposite them. One could argue that much of his good comes as a result of a promise to Vermouth or similar motives, but like with the bad, it's all ultimately fairly ambiguous and could be interpreted in different ways.

At this point, I am in the camp of "Amuro is a good guy who may be operating under bad assumptions but will ultimately be revealed to be good".

[k11chi]

The BO isn't any bigger threat than the serial killer in the symphony serial murders and these teens handle these kind of situations no problem. Conan is smart and has legit feats to make us accept that he can outsmart mostly everyone, unlike Light or something that has nothing more than the authors hype backing the character up.

The thing with the bomber sniping case is that the reason behind the bomber being there works as the case... And the thing that can be considered as "wrong" is letting the culprit who murdered the bombers sister go... Sera only thought about "it's better to let the bomber die, rather than announce the culprit, let the culprit get killed by the bomber and then let the bomber die". Why? Because the situation was out of her capabilities... Not Shinichis who wasn't even there. The only reason they didn't try to snipe the dude until like 5 panels later was because the cops had some kind of trust in Shinichi apparently.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I just can't be that positive about Bourbon's character Jd-. I assess those instances differently from you. At best I think "Rei-kun" will be a bad guy with goodish tendencies who may get a chance at redemption (with redemption implying he is starting on the bad side). Even if he is redeemed, I don't think it will erase what he did, or is about to do in these next few chapters while he is consumed by thirst for Shuuichi's blood.

Spoiler: Recap of what I think about Amuro's history and how that affects his current personality and knowledge

In the expectations for 900 thread.

We'll probably have more Amuro flashbacks running up to 900 which will give clues to this PSIA mess because Gosho usually likes to send those in clusters, and he favors dishing out clues about people's pasts and motivations right before clashes so Conan can get a disarming deduction monologue in later.

We'll no doubt find out Amuro isn't a very bad guy, even if he is involved in the Organization. Amuro's reason for hating Akai and the FBI will be very sensible, if those were the actual facts. Naturally there will be a few things Amuro has misunderstood, probably because he was lied to. Shuu and Conan will clear some of it up for him. If Amuro is unlucky, he'll find out Vermouth manipulated him. Either way, he will have to either die or give up on Shuuichi. Maybe his time with Date will figure into this. If Amuro survives and isn't put on a bus, maybe he will become the Black Organization equivalent of Kaitou Kid to Conan, someone on the enemy side who is basically a good guy that gets a kick out of annoying Conan.

For now, given the evidence, I believe Amuro was a good kid raised alongside the Organization and it got to him despite influences like Elena and Date. Chances are whatever is driving him against the FBI (maybe the death of his PSIA parents which orphaned him or something like that) was misrepresented to him. Also, while Shuuichi or another Akai may have done Amuro some real evil, I doubt Akai's/the FBI's action will have been entirely without merit.

I think the upcoming chapters will be largely about Bourbon doing some unpleasant things to Okiya, Conan, Masumi, maybe the Mouris, and whoever else while trying to flush out Shuuichi. I can't see him playing good and getting what he wants. There may come a moment where he makes a choice not to cross a certain line because his conscience reaches him, but the only way he could approach that line in the first place is by being villainous.

Ultimately I think our difference in opinion may have more to do with how we define protagonists and villains. A change of heart doesn't do it for me; I still consider Vermouth a firm villain (albeit one with some good tendencies) even though she has spent a lot of time and effort saving Conan's butt to the detriment of the Organization. I consider Akai to be a protagonist with some dark patches because his heart is in the right place. While getting revenge for Akemi isn't a pure motive, it's not a terrible motive considering he wants to achieve it by bringing down the Organization. Give Shuuichi credit for having the self control to defer an opportunity to kill Akemi's murderer because he is afraid innocent people might be hurt. I don't think Amuro is at that level. For Amuro to become a good guy in my mind, he would have to leave the Organization or else resist/sabotage the majority of its actions from within.

[User 4869]

The mean to getter teacher injured was Conan idea. And could be laziness on Gosho part to not come up with better way. The goal is the same, get the teacher injured. Say run over with a car is a poor, dangerous idea still not enough to rule out his intention to do it differently.

• Returns a phone he probably stole in the first place. (Beika Department Store bomb threat)
• Brings the Mouri family sandwiches (and Yoko concert ticket)The BO paid for (Detectives' Nocturne)

You clearly have you fun here, Chek.

Rescues Conan from a hostage taker by crashing his car. (Detectives' Nocturne)

Send repair bills to BO HQ ofc.

all those things, I'd probably say the most telling indicator of Amuro's human side is his visiting Date's grave and leaving a toothpick there.

Hey, even bad guys love their mama. Even Chianti feel sorry for Calvados.

Akai action result in Calvados and Rikumichi's death

Calvados: He search for every weapon so that Calvados cant commit suicide, he want him alive
Rikumichi: Likely not his intention, Heiji also Ok with murderer committed suicide until Conan changa him. Plot also say we need a body.


I think people really have to noted that Sherry goal is never create poison, its a by-product. She didnt happy they use it for kill, right? Its not worse than create,..gun. Aside from work for evil organization in the first place.

[Jd-]

I would say there are plenty of things we agree on, Chek (specifically what you mentioned in the other topic and replicated here in the spoiler box).

To me, the real villains are those that will, for example, kill indiscriminately in accordance with their affiliation to the Organization without exhibiting any good tendencies in any form. Thus far, we have no evidence that Amuro has killed anyone or is someone who would do so, unlike with a sidekick-type like Vodka who we know would shoot anyone Gin wants. Gin, Vodka, Chianti, and Korn are all examples of true villains: they have no good tendencies that would make us believe there's "something more" to their good/bad placement. Vermouth is still a villain, though she is slightly "more good" than the four mentioned above. Amuro is definitely closer to Conan than is Vermouth, I'm sure we agree on that.

So, on the hierarchy of good and bad characters relative to their interests in the series, we have Gin at one end and Conan at the other. In between those, we have everyone else--some are right beside of Conan, others are right beside of Gin. Sera would of course be on the good side, but not as close to Conan as Ran, given that she believes in other solutions to save lives outside of due process. Akai would be, off-hand, the character I would consider "most bad" of the good characters. He's at least a couple of steps in the "good" direction from the neutral point. With that established, where do we put Amuro? Is he just Akai's opposite on the bad side? Or, is he right at the neutral mark?

For me, all of this comes down to the question of "Is Amuro more good than bad" and, to me, that answer is yes.

I think, when all the chips are down, Amuro will be "good". He definitely is not above some trickery or worrying the protagonists for his means, but I do not believe for one moment that he would ever, for example, inflict some sort of long-term harm on Kogorou, Ran, or any of the kids. Whatever is driving him right now is revenge against Akai: he believes that Akai, and by extension likely the FBI as a whole, is responsible for something. Him being out for blood on that account doesn't make him "bad" to me. As you hypothesized, he may well have been lied to or misled, but that doesn't change that he is inherently good and, when faced with a situation, will do the good thing sooner than the bad. Amuro's mission seems, to me, to be very personally-motivated and doesn't really seem to be motivated at all by the Organization's interests. So far, we've only seen him break rank and do what he wants (not informing Gin and the others he'd be Scar Akai at the shopping mall, going with an entirely different plan in a very major way for the Shiho and Mystery Train situation, etc). That seems like someone who doesn't really particularly believe in what the Organization does but still has his own agenda to work out.

If Amuro is undercover for the PSB or similar organization, is he still bad, or is it something really unprecedented? If he were someone raised by the Organization to be sent into the police to infiltrate them, that would be an interesting story (albeit similar to a certain Oscar-winning film that's a remake of another great movie). With regard to this and the Date thing, there are just too many possibilities. It's one of those things where Gosho could change it anytime and we'd never notice that it changed because not enough has been revealed just yet (though we're getting there, finally). Amuro may have been raised in the Organization, he may have been sent into the police to train with them or infiltrate them, or may have been raised to be a top police officer who could ensure the police never got too close to the Organization, or even to infiltrate them and become a double or triple agent to protect the Org's interests. This is a whole other discussion that could fill numerous pages, so I'll leave that one here for now.

In the end, I think Amuro will be a good person whose bad was done mostly if not entirely due to being misled or for reasons that we can entirely sympathize with; this of course includes him being raised in the Organization but still turning out to be a good person, perhaps akin on some level to Haibara. Whatever those reasons are, we will not see him as a bad guy--certainly not on the level of Gin and not even near the level of Vermouth. He doesn't seem to really believe in anything the Organization is doing or does so far, with the two missions we've observed as wider Organization ops being basically sabotaged by him. I'm not sure if he will go back into the Organization with this eventuality (of, in my view, ultimately being seen as a good-but-misguided person) or if he'll die (a poor ending for such an interesting character), but fact is he definitely knows too much at this point and something will have to happen.

[AICHAN]

I completly agree with JD...let's see what Gosho will do,hoping that he won't kill Amuro...

[Kudo Shinchi]

Well, Gosho's got himself in a tough spot with Amuro. If he kills off Amuro, it would be lame ending to such a great character and not achieve much. If he has Amuro keep silent on what he knows for whatever reason it'll probably come across as needlessly repetitive and pointless. I'm hoping Gosho hasa solution that no one has though of yet.

[ThatLee4]

Amouro is a great type of charactee to have in this type of story. so hard yo figure out but eith so much potential and unexpected development. i be he is an anti villian. in that he is a villian who appears to be good. yet seems to be against villians. having a respect for laws and justic. but also has a more refined self definition of justice himself. willing to be seen as a bad guy in order to break down the greater evil by taunting the good guys to fight harder. and also he is very reckless with himself too as his desire for truth is deepee than self preservation. but yet he is very skilled in varioud areas.

it will be very intresting to see where Gosho goes with this story exploring good and bad and justics with thid anti villian esques Bourbon.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Based on Amuro's past with the Miyanos it seems like he should get along well with them or at least show some allegiance to Elena's memory. Since Conan explicitly pointed out he thought it was strange that Amuro didn't kill Shiho on the train there must be a reason for it. I wonder what Amuro intended to do with her alive? Did he have a deal with someone to fake her escape later? The only problem I have is that Amuro didn't seem as upset as I thought he would be after Shiho "died" if he did intend to save her.

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi. Amuro was suspicious of Akai during the infiltration segment, but Akemi became attached to Akai despite Amuro's warnings/suspicion. When Akai was confirmed FBI, that was the final straw for Amuro who hated seeing Akemi used. FYI Amuro and Akemi are only about 4 years apart. They could have been friends.

[ALAKTORN]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

While I was checking again that post, I noticed you can also add source 5 for “It is mentioned again the boss is not Agasa. (Source 1,6,7)” if you really want to. In my translation I didn’t include that part for some reason, but I remember skipping a few things because everyone was repeating the same stuff and I was bored of it.

[k11chi]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

While I was checking again that post, I noticed you can also add source 5 for “It is mentioned again the boss is not Agasa. (Source 1,6,7)” if you really want to. In my translation I didn’t include that part for some reason, but I remember skipping a few things because everyone was repeating the same stuff and I was bored of it.

He's going to have to link Akemi to it one way or another anyway...

[Jd-]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

I have never really been able to reconcile that denial with the trajectory of Amuro's character arc. It seems counter-productive for the one thing that was pretty assured and would make the most sense is the one thing that is not in any way related to their relationship. I've always wondered if Gosho was just being coy or was going to frame it in such a way that one could say, "Akai and Amuro hate each other, and it's not just because of Akemi." It is possible that Akai and Amuro were just at odds because Amuro suspected him when he got into the Organization or whatnot, but--from what we know so far--that doesn't really seem as compelling as the clear path of tying it into Akemi (a character that, apart from her loosely-explored connection to Akai, doesn't get a lot of play).

Now, we have Amuro talking with Elena in a recent file... and yet, Akemi is still not involved in their "rivalry"? It sure will be interesting to see what he can come up with to match that pretty realistic and interesting prospect in its place, if so.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

While I was checking again that post, I noticed you can also add source 5 for “It is mentioned again the boss is not Agasa. (Source 1,6,7)” if you really want to. In my translation I didn’t include that part for some reason, but I remember skipping a few things because everyone was repeating the same stuff and I was bored of it.

Ah, I forgot it was "nothing to do at all" vs "not a love rivalry".

Also will do on the Agasa thing

[Kor]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

I have never really been able to reconcile that denial with the trajectory of Amuro's character arc. It seems counter-productive for the one thing that was pretty assured and would make the most sense is the one thing that is not in any way related to their relationship. I've always wondered if Gosho was just being coy or was going to frame it in such a way that one could say, "Akai and Amuro hate each other, and it's not just because of Akemi." It is possible that Akai and Amuro were just at odds because Amuro suspected him when he got into the Organization or whatnot, but--from what we know so far--that doesn't really seem as compelling as the clear path of tying it into Akemi (a character that, apart from her loosely-explored connection to Akai, doesn't get a lot of play).

Now, we have Amuro talking with Elena in a recent file... and yet, Akemi is still not involved in their "rivalry"? It sure will be interesting to see what he can come up with to match that pretty realistic and interesting prospect in its place, if so.

I know, right? For once in this series, this conflict pretty much asks for a "love quarrel", and this is the time Gosho decides to avoid his thing? Maybe Gosho thought it would be too obvious, or realized he has already done this thing a couple of times, so he decided to avoid it.
Or maybe Gosho had a better idea.

[PhantomWriter]

I wonder if Amuro's reason for hating Akai is because of what Akai did to Akemi, but not because Amuro loved Akemi.

I thought Aoyama already denied that?

“Akemi has nothing to do with the rivalry between Akai Shuuichi and Amuro Tohru. (Source 1,2,5,6,7)”

I have never really been able to reconcile that denial with the trajectory of Amuro's character arc. It seems counter-productive for the one thing that was pretty assured and would make the most sense is the one thing that is not in any way related to their relationship. I've always wondered if Gosho was just being coy or was going to frame it in such a way that one could say, "Akai and Amuro hate each other, and it's not just because of Akemi." It is possible that Akai and Amuro were just at odds because Amuro suspected him when he got into the Organization or whatnot, but--from what we know so far--that doesn't really seem as compelling as the clear path of tying it into Akemi (a character that, apart from her loosely-explored connection to Akai, doesn't get a lot of play).

Now, we have Amuro talking with Elena in a recent file... and yet, Akemi is still not involved in their "rivalry"? It sure will be interesting to see what he can come up with to match that pretty realistic and interesting prospect in its place, if so.

I know, right? For once in this series, this conflict pretty much asks for a "love quarrel", and this is the time Gosho decides to avoid his thing? Maybe Gosho thought it would be too obvious, or realized he has already done this thing a couple of times, so he decided to avoid it.
Or maybe Gosho had a better idea.

I can understand why he wouldn't look at it from a love quarrel angle. Considering the sheer hatred Amuro has for Akai, there's something much more serious than "I loved a girl but she ran off with someone else, so I hate the guy in question." Amuro isn't that petty, from what I can tell. Whatever happened is an extremely serious matter for Amuro, considering how much work he's put into uncovering if Akai died, how Akai faked his death, and tracking Akai down. Meanwhile, we don't get much of an idea of what Akai thinks of Amuro or whatever it is that caused their rivalry/clashing. He's mostly avoiding being spotted by Amuro to avoid blowing his cover/to avoid putting Kir in danger.

And the wording of that interview makes me think that Akemi doesn't have anything at all to do with the rivalry. Again, I could be wrong, as that's just an impression.