Togop wrote:I did once for fun start from chapter 852 going 10 cases back and I remember I managed to find a flaw in most. I can't do it now as I don't remember those cases anymore (I did remember back then, because I read everything from Kudo Yusaku's cold case to chapter 852 in one go).
Anyway, I could find these examples:
Spoiler:
In the pickpocket case, if some random person could just make a pickpocket pickpocket them, the police would have done that long ago and caught the pickpocket (we're talking about a know and searched for pickpocket)
In the case about the food contest, I can't help but wonder why would the culprit lock the body in the fruit container? Doing something that nobody else can do certainly doesn't help him avoid suspicion. I understand when a trick provides a culprit with an alibi, but when it provides everyone alive with an alibi while also making it obvious it's not a suicide, that alibi is automatically busted.
The case before, the elevator suicide, it is hard to synchronize the four videos perfectly, but theoretically possible. Still, unless that woman who was supposed to witness the suicide was a ticking clock, I don't see how can you make the elevator go up exactly when she was waiting for it. If you're early, she would not witness anything. If you're late and she calls the elevator before you send it up, the elevator doors will open on the floor of the witness and the trick will be ruined right away.
The case with the tennis was more or less OK, but why didn't Conan wake up from the sound the murderer make when they committed the murder? And what was that strong vase that didn't break into a person's skull?
On the mystery train, the BO plotline, while it was reasonable to assume that Kaito Kid would have been on that train and be able to pose as Miyano Shiho, could Conan really bet her life on such a guess? Maybe he had a backup plan, but for completeness and consistency of the story we should hear what that backup plan was.
Ah, yes, and how did they put an unidentifiable body in the car that exploded so that the BO would not figure out Sherry is still alive?
Spoiler:
Look the only major flaws there have been were that they didn´t show the decapitated head being found and the current case water level was too high during the explanation... Rest of them are small things like eyes not being covered or anything during the contact lense case and small things like that
There were no flaws with the 4 tablets the case was so obvious. It´s just that the characters didn´t see it because it happened so fast and was distracting. but the right arm was clearly way too off from the body and made it so obvious it was tablets being used. There was no need for them to be 100% synched in the first place.
Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.
Well my unpopular opinion about Conan would be that the movies 12-15... Terrible atleast 11 had a real movie feeling in it
Nothing much to say about the manga as if everything has not already been discussed through thousands of times
Togop wrote:I did once for fun start from chapter 852 going 10 cases back and I remember I managed to find a flaw in most. I can't do it now as I don't remember those cases anymore (I did remember back then, because I read everything from Kudo Yusaku's cold case to chapter 852 in one go).
Anyway, I could find these examples:
Spoiler:
In the pickpocket case, if some random person could just make a pickpocket pickpocket them, the police would have done that long ago and caught the pickpocket (we're talking about a know and searched for pickpocket)
In the case about the food contest, I can't help but wonder why would the culprit lock the body in the fruit container? Doing something that nobody else can do certainly doesn't help him avoid suspicion. I understand when a trick provides a culprit with an alibi, but when it provides everyone alive with an alibi while also making it obvious it's not a suicide, that alibi is automatically busted.
The case before, the elevator suicide, it is hard to synchronize the four videos perfectly, but theoretically possible. Still, unless that woman who was supposed to witness the suicide was a ticking clock, I don't see how can you make the elevator go up exactly when she was waiting for it. If you're early, she would not witness anything. If you're late and she calls the elevator before you send it up, the elevator doors will open on the floor of the witness and the trick will be ruined right away.
The case with the tennis was more or less OK, but why didn't Conan wake up from the sound the murderer make when they committed the murder? And what was that strong vase that didn't break into a person's skull?
On the mystery train, the BO plotline, while it was reasonable to assume that Kaito Kid would have been on that train and be able to pose as Miyano Shiho, could Conan really bet her life on such a guess? Maybe he had a backup plan, but for completeness and consistency of the story we should hear what that backup plan was.
Ah, yes, and how did they put an unidentifiable body in the car that exploded so that the BO would not figure out Sherry is still alive?
Spoiler:
Look the only major flaws there have been were that they didn´t show the decapitated head being found and the current case water level was too high during the explanation... Rest of them are small things like eyes not being covered or anything during the contact lense case and small things like that
False. Some of these flaws make tricks unusable. But as it become apparent from the rest of your post, you haven't really read mine carefully.
There were no flaws with the 4 tablets the case was so obvious. It´s just that the characters didn´t see it because it happened so fast and was distracting. but the right arm was clearly way too off from the body and made it so obvious it was tablets being used. There was no need for them to be 100% synched in the first place.
I mentioned sync in one sentence. In the rest of the paragraph about that case I was talking about a completely different flaw - the difficulty to time the pushing of the button of the elevator, and the risk that the person supposed to witness the suicide may call the elevator before you push the button.
Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.
Boots and tranqualizer wouldn't have worked, because he didn't have an escape route. If you actually have a reliable backup plan, I'd be glad to hear it; but since one isn't obvious, failing to mention it is a flaw.
Well my unpopular opinion about Conan would be that the movies 12-15... Terrible atleast 11 had a real movie feeling in it
Nothing much to say about the manga as if everything has not already been discussed through thousands of times
Togop wrote:I did once for fun start from chapter 852 going 10 cases back and I remember I managed to find a flaw in most. I can't do it now as I don't remember those cases anymore (I did remember back then, because I read everything from Kudo Yusaku's cold case to chapter 852 in one go).
Anyway, I could find these examples:
Spoiler:
In the pickpocket case, if some random person could just make a pickpocket pickpocket them, the police would have done that long ago and caught the pickpocket (we're talking about a know and searched for pickpocket)
In the case about the food contest, I can't help but wonder why would the culprit lock the body in the fruit container? Doing something that nobody else can do certainly doesn't help him avoid suspicion. I understand when a trick provides a culprit with an alibi, but when it provides everyone alive with an alibi while also making it obvious it's not a suicide, that alibi is automatically busted.
The case before, the elevator suicide, it is hard to synchronize the four videos perfectly, but theoretically possible. Still, unless that woman who was supposed to witness the suicide was a ticking clock, I don't see how can you make the elevator go up exactly when she was waiting for it. If you're early, she would not witness anything. If you're late and she calls the elevator before you send it up, the elevator doors will open on the floor of the witness and the trick will be ruined right away.
The case with the tennis was more or less OK, but why didn't Conan wake up from the sound the murderer make when they committed the murder? And what was that strong vase that didn't break into a person's skull?
On the mystery train, the BO plotline, while it was reasonable to assume that Kaito Kid would have been on that train and be able to pose as Miyano Shiho, could Conan really bet her life on such a guess? Maybe he had a backup plan, but for completeness and consistency of the story we should hear what that backup plan was.
Ah, yes, and how did they put an unidentifiable body in the car that exploded so that the BO would not figure out Sherry is still alive?
Spoiler:
Look the only major flaws there have been were that they didn´t show the decapitated head being found and the current case water level was too high during the explanation... Rest of them are small things like eyes not being covered or anything during the contact lense case and small things like that
False. Some of these flaws make tricks unusable. But as it become apparent from the rest of your post, you haven't really read mine carefully.
There were no flaws with the 4 tablets the case was so obvious. It´s just that the characters didn´t see it because it happened so fast and was distracting. but the right arm was clearly way too off from the body and made it so obvious it was tablets being used. There was no need for them to be 100% synched in the first place.
I mentioned sync in one sentence. In the rest of the paragraph about that case I was talking about a completely different flaw - the difficulty to time the pushing of the button of the elevator, and the risk that the person supposed to witness the suicide may call the elevator before you push the button.
Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.
Boots and tranqualizer wouldn't have worked, because he didn't have an escape route. If you actually have a reliable backup plan, I'd be glad to hear it; but since one isn't obvious, failing to mention it is a flaw.
Well my unpopular opinion about Conan would be that the movies 12-15... Terrible atleast 11 had a real movie feeling in it
Nothing much to say about the manga as if everything has not already been discussed through thousands of times
Spoiler:
If taking a risk makes the trick unusable then i´m mickey mouse. A vase not breaking? Lol.
Rush in and out guns blazing
Whatever believe what you will but note this has nothing to do with this thread to begin with... When theres a trick that should not be possible it´s not about opinions anymore as long as you have the proof to back up your claim
Maybe take it to chapter discussion thread instead or something.
Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.
Spoiler:
I don't like to resort to meta arguments, but Kid's only role in that case was to provide a solution to the problem. The only plan Conan presented was the one which involved Kid. Also, speculating what Conan would have done isn't an argument, since this is purely a speculation based on your imagination.
If there are no consequences to Conan's actions and Kid's involvement, then it was one of the lazier ways Gosho chose to resolve a B.O. encounter.
Also, you're implying Conan had another plan but still chose to risk Kid's life or to make him involved in some way.
If taking a risk makes the trick unusable then i´m mickey mouse. A vase not breaking? Lol.
We can have a discussion without being so snarky.
Whatever believe what you will but note this has nothing to do with this thread to begin with...
Togop said he thinks some of the latest cases were flawed. That's an opinion. Someone asked for examples and he provided some examples. You decided to argue against his examples and he replied.
There's nothing wrong with such a discussion here.
Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.
Spoiler:
I don't like to resort to meta arguments, but Kid's only role in that case was to provide a solution to the problem. The only plan Conan presented was the one which involved Kid. Also, speculating what Conan would have done isn't an argument, since this is purely a speculation based on your imagination.
If there are no consequences to Conan's actions and Kid's involvement, then it was one of the lazier ways Gosho chose to resolve a B.O. encounter.
Also, you're implying Conan had another plan but still chose to risk Kid's life or to make him involved in some way.
If taking a risk makes the trick unusable then i´m mickey mouse. A vase not breaking? Lol.
We can have a discussion without being so snarky.
Whatever believe what you will but note this has nothing to do with this thread to begin with...
Togop said he thinks some of the latest cases were flawed. That's an opinion. Someone asked for examples and he provided some examples. You decided to argue against his examples and he replied.
There's nothing wrong with such a discussion here.
I doubt we want to continue discussing about something like that anyway. Would flood and derail the thread completely if we were to talk about every single case with flaws in detail
Im not against his/her opinion either because Shonen tend to be packed with flaws from a single panel to few pages chapter after chapter
First off, people, let's remember that this is the General Discussion board, so spoiler box manga stuff, please.
Spoiler: About the pickpocket case
The murder weapon was made of only coins and a shoelace, so it doesn't require her to have been specifically looking for the pickpocket. Even if she was, she could have known what the pickpocket looked like and hid it from the police in order to be able to get revenge. True, there's no surefire way to make yourself be pickpocketed, but you can make yourself look more vulnerable, and if she's desperate enough to kill then she could come back often and hope to be pickpocketed again.
Spoiler: Mystery Train
I really didn't see Kid being in the Mystery Train arc as a plot device. In the very first file, it's mentioned that Kid would be having a heist on the train, and those kinds of details rarely go unused. Plus, the clues to find out who was Kid were all there, and he would obviously be able to disguise as Sherry because it's been established that he can disguise as anyone at any time. While Kor says that Kaito had no effect on the plot, his personality did in fact have a huge effect on the plot, which most people don't seem to notice. It's just one line: "This storage hold is full of explosives." If it wasn't for this one line, Amuro still would have split the cars and the explosives still would have went off, but Akai never would have had to step in to separate the cars. That alone is a huge difference, as it obviously makes Amuro reopen the investigation into Akai. So, whether or not you actually like Kid is up to you, but I don't think it's fair to call his use in the file a plot device (I'm assuming in this case you're talking about deus ex machina)
Pmofmalasia wrote:
First off, people, let's remember that this is the General Discussion board, so spoiler box manga stuff, please.
All of the above posts contained spoiler tags. Dunno why when you quoted my post the spoiler tags disappeared. (Unless there's a bigger problem here of people not seeing certain tags.
Togop wrote:I did once for fun start from chapter 852 going 10 cases back and I remember I managed to find a flaw in most. I can't do it now as I don't remember those cases anymore (I did remember back then, because I read everything from Kudo Yusaku's cold case to chapter 852 in one go).
Anyway, I could find these examples:
Spoiler:
In the pickpocket case, if some random person could just make a pickpocket pickpocket them, the police would have done that long ago and caught the pickpocket (we're talking about a know and searched for pickpocket)
In the case about the food contest, I can't help but wonder why would the culprit lock the body in the fruit container? Doing something that nobody else can do certainly doesn't help him avoid suspicion. I understand when a trick provides a culprit with an alibi, but when it provides everyone alive with an alibi while also making it obvious it's not a suicide, that alibi is automatically busted.
The case before, the elevator suicide, it is hard to synchronize the four videos perfectly, but theoretically possible. Still, unless that woman who was supposed to witness the suicide was a ticking clock, I don't see how can you make the elevator go up exactly when she was waiting for it. If you're early, she would not witness anything. If you're late and she calls the elevator before you send it up, the elevator doors will open on the floor of the witness and the trick will be ruined right away.
The case with the tennis was more or less OK, but why didn't Conan wake up from the sound the murderer make when they committed the murder? And what was that strong vase that didn't break into a person's skull?
On the mystery train, the BO plotline, while it was reasonable to assume that Kaito Kid would have been on that train and be able to pose as Miyano Shiho, could Conan really bet her life on such a guess? Maybe he had a backup plan, but for completeness and consistency of the story we should hear what that backup plan was.
Ah, yes, and how did they put an unidentifiable body in the car that exploded so that the BO would not figure out Sherry is still alive?
Spoiler:
Not sure about the rest of your examples, but I completely agree about the Mystery Train. This resolution wasn't well thought out, and Kaito Kid was just a device to conveniently solve the problem. The worst offense is that apparently Gosho later said in an interview that Kaito Kid won't be appearing in any more B.O. cases, so what was the point in including him in the first place (besides serving as a solution to a problem)?
Spoiler:
Speaking specifically about the mystery train, I don't get why you're upset that Gosho used Kid in the solution of the case, I mean Conan knew he would've been there and wanted to make use of that, and regarding what u said about "an unidentifiable body, I don't think there was one in the first place, if u would recall, Amuro relayed to Vermouth that he saw with his eyes that Shiho was inside the cabin that exploded, so Vermouth confirmed to Gin Sherry's death, and as Vermouth is a high rank in the BO, I don't think Anokata would order anyone to confirm what she said.
Actually, he didn't. This is exactly why I'm upset.
Spoiler:
Kid was supposed to steal a jewel that would be exhibited the next time the train ran. He could only conjecture he would be there to examine the train and plan the strike, and while such a conjecture would be reasonable, I don't think it's good enough to bet Haibara's life on.
Actually, he didn't. This is exactly why I'm upset.
Spoiler:
Kid was supposed to steal a jewel that would be exhibited the next time the train ran. He could only conjecture he would be there to examine the train and plan the strike, and while such a conjecture would be reasonable, I don't think it's good enough to bet Haibara's life on.
Spoiler:
I get your point, but, as it has been stated, that the train will run twice(this time, and the month after). So it was almost certain that Kid will come to explore the place of his next appearance, it wouldn't need someone smart to guess that, I mean even Sonoko knew he would be there(File 818). Regardless, I can understand ur point that Conan shouldn't have bet on that.
Akai Shuuichi wrote:Conan knew he would've been there.
Actually, he didn't. This is exactly why I'm upset.
Kid was supposed to steal a jewel that would be exhibited the next time the train ran. He could only conjecture he would be there to examine the train and plan the strike, and while such a conjecture would be reasonable, I don't think it's good enough to bet Haibara's life on.
I get your point, but, as it has been stated, that the train will run twice(this time, and the month after). So it was almost certain that Kid will come to explore the place of his next appearance, it wouldn't need someone smart to guess that, I mean even Sonoko knew he would be there(File 818). Regardless, I can understand ur point that Conan shouldn't have bet on that.
I'd be more worried about Conan not being able to pick out Kid in time. What if Kid went as one of the preparation staff and did the majority of the investigation ahead of time? As far as Conan knew, the BO on board might have executed their plan right away, before he could find Kid. Conan got pretty distracted by the actual murder, so if the suspects didn't include Kid, his plan would have gone south quickly.
The whole train thing seems stupidly artificially lucky for Conan's side. Conan had no idea who might have seen the video (Bourbon did pass the video on) or who among the BO would act. Perhaps the only thing that would be predictable would be the BO sending someone in to confirm that Sherry was on board. After that, anything goes, including potentially sacrificing the confirming agents (which Gin almost did). Conan didn't know the plan the BO would use. For all Conan knew, the BO might have messed with the tracks 15 minutes out of the station in order to violently derail the train, act as first responders, and kill Sherry among the survivors. Or the agents could have gassed the train with sarin or some other poison and worn gasmasks after confirming Sherry was on board. It was pure luck the "best" two agents were the ones who boarded, and their plan also included stopping the Gin and Vodka from executing their more destructive plan which was conveniently set to go off at the end of the trip. Even if Conan thought Vermouth might come because it was Sherry being targeted, and she might be sympathetic if she saw Conan on board with Ran and all his friends, is Vermouth really that trustworthy? There is a real chance that Vermouth may not be able to act because of Gin and the boss's plans.
If Conan or Akai behaved realistically, they would have called in a bomb threat to cancel the whole trip and thwart whatever plan the BO might have had. It is not worth putting Ran and friends aboard a potential deathtrap.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 3rd, 2014, 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chek, about the "realistic behavior of the two bullets" part, you DID say to follow plot-logic in such cases and plot logic dictated the entire train case...............................
I am a geek~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am a flirt!
I love mysteries!
I love comics~
Conan-chandesune wrote:Chek, about the "realistic behavior of the two bullets" part, you DID say to follow plot-logic in such cases and plot logic dictated the entire train case...............................
I agree that following plot logic is a good thing, put I contend your assumption "plot logic dictated the entire train case."
Following plot logic would be saying it's okay to accept Vermouth has an aging problem because APTX exists and already demolished the-people-should-age-normally presumption. Boarding the train is ignoring common sense (and not boarding is a perfectly valid common sense option) for the sake of making drama. For all of Conan's words about not wanting to put Ran in danger, he sure ignored them this time. It's not like practical solutions don't exist in DC, Sera already attempted to reach a safe practical end in the Mouri Agency Hostage Crisis by getting the hostage taker shot, and damn the case anyway.
The main problem with the train case I think is that Conan went out of character in terms of how he managed it. He didn't know all the risks, and instead of trying to mitigate them as best he can like he usually does (See him locking Haibara in the basement in the Vermouth arc and stirring up the crowd around Scar Akai) he decided to risk his loved ones. Furthermore the crux of his plan relied on nabbing and forcing Kaitou Kid, one of Conan's strongest and most unpredictable opponents, to cooperate. It's like Conan KNEW that it was going to be Vermouth and Bourbon only and there would time to stop the train before something else bad happened to it. Precognitive Conan is not plot logic.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 3rd, 2014, 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chek, about the "realistic behavior of the two bullets" part, you DID say to follow plot-logic in such cases and plot logic dictated the entire train case...............................
Spoiler:
I agree that following plot logic is a good thing, put I contend your assumption "plot logic dictated the entire train case."
Following plot logic would be saying it's okay to accept Vermouth has an aging problem because APTX exists and already demolished the-people-should-age-normally presumption. Boarding the train is ignoring common sense (and not boarding is a perfectly valid common sense option) for the sake of making drama. For all of Conan's words about not wanting to put Ran in danger, he sure ignored them this time. It's not like practical solutions don't exist in DC, Sera already attempted to reach a safe practical end in the Mouri Agency Hostage Crisis by getting the hostage taker shot, and damn the case anyway.
The main problem with the train case I think is that Conan went out of character in terms of how he managed it. He didn't know all the risks, and instead of trying to mitigate them as best he can like he usually does (See him locking Haibara in the basement in the Vermouth arc and stirring up the crowd around Scar Akai) he decided to risk his loved ones. Furthermore the crux of his plan relied on nabbing and forcing Kaitou Kid, one of Conan's strongest and most unpredictable opponents, to cooperate. It's like Conan KNEW that it was going to be Vermouth and Bourbon only and there would time to stop the train before something else bad happened to it. Precognitive Conan is not plot logic.
Spoiler:
You are right about the other parts. I was only referring to boarding the train part as you mentioned in the above post.
I am a geek~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am a flirt!
I love mysteries!
I love comics~
People's "unpopular opinions" about Detective Conan make mine feel petty. I just kinda think after watching a fair amount of other animes and then going back to watch more recent episodes of DC that the animation quality seems a bit lower. Oh well lol.
