Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

[Kogorou]

Sure go ahead but you could join too

[eworm]

I expected you to join, sstimson... With your sharp eye for details we'd be able to create a perfectly fair mystery. Isn't it better than critiquing it afterwards?

[Kogorou]

I totally agree with that
Anyway back to learning

[sstimson]

Sure go ahead but you could join too

Explaining my self again? Ok, While I am not great at creating riddles, I am great at taking them apart and explaining why that part does not work. I like fair riddles as you both know with all necessary details out in the open. And maybe I am right, in that most of my questions of yours and eworms were fair questions, right? Also K looking over a riddle and questioning if it would work, should be part of the creating process, and therefore an indirect join?  ;D

I expected you to join, sstimson... With your sharp eye for details we'd be able to create a perfectly fair mystery. Isn't it better than critiquing it afterwards?

See my statement above. But yes it is better to beta(?) the riddle and get the problem parts out of it before the riddle hits main stream. That way, it is fair, right?  :)

Also for the riddle up at the moment

-------------------------------------
Water and stones or Months
-------------------------------------

Water is offen seen as the color blue

March - Aquamarine (also note aqua sp I believe for water and marine -Def ma·rine/məˈrēn/
Adjective: Of, found in, or produced by the sea: "marine plants"; "marine biology".
also the color of light blue

September - Dark Blue - Sapphire

December - Blue -Turquoise

----------------------------------
Fire and stones or Months
----------------------------------

Red is offen the color used for fire

January - Dark Red - Garnet

July - "Ruby" Red - Ruby

----------------------------------------
Fire and Star Signs or Months
----------------------------------------

Note while some Star signs might deal with fire Ex: Archer with fire arrows, none do it directly

-----------------------------------------
Water and Star Signs or Months
-----------------------------------------

February - Water Bearer

March - Fish ( which live in water )

And Remembering the Color part and stone name, March becomes a strong possibly for the water part of the riddle
( Sign - Fish, Color - Light Blue, Stone - Aquamarine ( two water words in the name) )

Interesting - Jaspar the Tran. stone of March is normal red and that might be part of the "approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace" as I explained above aquamarine is water and jaspar fire. I now know March, either the stone or month, plays a major part of this riddle.

One Final note, while some stones are of the fire color, only one I have found so far might have fire in its name. That woukld be a "fire" opal.

[eworm]

Explaining my self again? Ok, While I am not great at creating riddles, I am great at taking them apart and explaining why that part does not work. I like fair riddles as you both know with all necessary details out in the open. And maybe I am right, in that most of my questions of yours and eworms were fair questions, right? Also K looking over a riddle and questioning if it would work, should be part of the creating process, and therefore an indirect join?  Grin

So what you mean is you could join us but you don't want to actually "create" the riddle, only watch if we don't do anything unfair?

[sstimson]

Part of the process but leaving the creative ideas to others. But glad to help make sure the riddle / mystery flows right (like it would be real  world possible, logical) and fair. I guess being indirectly part of the "create" part but without creative ideas. Does that explain it better?

By the way Riddle at hand

Spoiler:

1.What kind of stone is Kid seeking?

I sure it must be an aquamarine
as for why, first the riddle note

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace. It is one of the three that is a section of the twelve. Seek not tradition but that of modern days. My candle has begun to melt so its light has begun to fade from its brightest.

next line two of the hint

The stone is either associated with a sign of the zodiac or is likely a birthstone.

First thing is this part " Seek not tradition but modern". Well, the hint had two columns tradition and modern. The note seems to suggest we look only at modern stones.
next the phase "approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace" Jasper (trad) to Aquamarine (modern). Jasper is red the color of fire. Aquamarine is light blue the color of water. March's Star sign is Aquarius, a bearer of water. The stone of march is an Aquamarine. The word Aqua is a light blue color and is used often for water. Marine plants are plants that live in water. But there is a word play as well. These three words "fire beneath water". Beneath can also be written as under. That makes this part " fire under water". which could also be phased as under fire, water" As I already said Water could be Aqua. Now for the under fire part. Marine is also a soldier who could be "under fire". And notice the word marine is after aqua or under. See why I think the stone KID is seeking almost must be a Aquamarine.

[Kogorou]

Actually I have to admit that I know nothing about that stones
I just picked up some books I have and read them.
Well I am working on the solution now

[Suutashi]

Part of the process but leaving the creative ideas to others. But glad to help make sure the riddle / mystery flows right (like it would be real  world possible, logical) and fair. I guess being indirectly part of the "create" part but without creative ideas. Does that explain it better?

By the way Riddle at hand

1.What kind of stone is Kid seeking?

I sure it must be an aquamarine
as for why, first the riddle note

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace. It is one of the three that is a section of the twelve. Seek not tradition but that of modern days. My candle has begun to melt so its light has begun to fade from its brightest.

next line two of the hint

The stone is either associated with a sign of the zodiac or is likely a birthstone.

First thing is this part " Seek not tradition but modern". Well, the hint had two columns tradition and modern. The note seems to suggest we look only at modern stones.
next the phase "approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace" Jasper (trad) to Aquamarine (modern). Jasper is red the color of fire. Aquamarine is light blue the color of water. March's Star sign is Aquarius, a bearer of water. The stone of march is an Aquamarine. The word Aqua is a light blue color and is used often for water. Marine plants are plants that live in water. But there is a word play as well. These three words "fire beneath water". Beneath can also be written as under. That makes this part " fire under water". which could also be phased as under fire, water" As I already said Water could be Aqua. Now for the under fire part. Marine is also a soldier who could be "under fire". And notice the word marine is after aqua or under. See why I think the stone KID is seeking almost must be a Aquamarine.

Spoiler: Text has been made transparent

Nope, that's not it. You need to find a solution that fits all of the clues not just some of them. I've mentioned that change is an important clue so try to see how that may have something to do with the answer.

[eworm]

The Thread is in a coma again? It's the second time already, Suutashi, your riddle seems really troublesome

---
About Project:Mystery - me and Yuri-chan made a little use of the EtherPad and you can say we tested it. It appears five people writing at once may end up quite messy. And so I figured two options:

Option A - we reduce the Riddling Five to the Riddling Three. That would be me, Kogorou and Yuri-chan. As simple as that. Let's remember it's the first time we do something like this, so we are testing the waters. If we learn something in the process, we'll be able to create the Project: Mystery 2nd Edition, an even better one.

Option B - we act a bit differently and instead of meeting at once, we visit the EtherPad document occasionally. The documents don't disappear, so we can slowly create The Ultimate Riddle by just visiting, writing our ideas and commenting on the other's ideas. If we happen to meet - all the better.

Right now it seems like Option A makes more sense, seeing as the people don't seem interested    Well, we can add more people even after starting... Thoughts?

[sstimson]

Well the process should be writing review revising review etc until as some say it passes muster.I be glad to made sure your riddle is actually solvable. We do not want to riddle to be solvable in more then one way after all. and it should be logical and possible. It should have all elements necessary to solve it there. But I do see a possible problem. more on that later

@ Suutashi - your riddle I believe fall in the solvable in more then one way class. Both my and Kogorou possible solutions are valid and you need to explain why they do not work, not just say they do not work.

And as for the change element

Spoiler:

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace. It is one of the three that is a section of the twelve. Seek not tradition but that of modern days. My candle has begun to melt so its light has begun to fade from its brightest.

Spoiler:

First thing is this part " Seek not tradition but modern". Well, the hint had two columns tradition and modern. The note seems to suggest we look only at modern stones.
next the phase "approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace" Jasper (trad) to Aquamarine (modern). Jasper is red the color of fire. Aquamarine is light blue the color of water. March's Star sign is Aquarius, a bearer of water. The stone of march is an Aquamarine. The word Aqua is a light blue color and is used often for water. Marine plants are plants that live in water. But there is a word play as well. These three words "fire beneath water". Beneath can also be written as under. That makes this part " fire under water". which could also be phased as under fire, water" As I already said Water could be Aqua. Now for the under fire part. Marine is also a soldier who could be "under fire". And notice the word marine is after aqua or under. See why I think the stone KID is seeking almost must be a Aquamarine.

Part One

Spoiler:

I seek change

We are going to start using that phase to say a change of seasons in this case winter to spring and that month is March

see here for the following quote

Meteorological seasons are reckoned by temperature, with summer being the hottest quarter of the year and winter the coldest quarter of the year. Using this reckoning, the Roman calendar began the year and the spring season on the first of March, with each season occupying three months. In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina, an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[7] Therefore, in meteorology for the Northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December.

during the last moment

More on the above idea. The last season of the year in winter. The CHANGE is from the last season to the first

I may catch my breath

More evidence of the season change being from winter to spring. In winter you can see your breath and maybe even catch it. It is also one of the best seasons for CATCHING colds.

before escaping the approaching fire

Note the stone of March for Tradition is a Jasper. It is a red stone, and since red is used for fire, it could be though of as the Fire Gemstone of March. But there is that  word "CHANGE" we are changing from the Tradition to the Modern. The modern stone for March is an aquamarine.

beneath water's protective embrace

Note as I say in my earlier "wrong" answer aqua = water and marine =water. The changes are from the fire to the water, winter to spring, and tradition to modern. Water puts out fire, and is used for burns from fire to cool then down. The is also a change from the season of 'death' to the season of 'rebirth'. Being in water prevents fire from burning you.

It is one of the three

I believe we are still talking seasons here. Two have been mentioned, winter and spring and as we are going from fire to water, the third season should be fall. Fall has bright leaves, some of which are red, the color of FIRE. When winter comes, snow may carpet the landscape. Snow is a form of WATER vapor. The date of his thief is made up of these three seasons.

that is a section of the twelve

The twelve of the number of months in a year. Note that each season is made up of three months

Seek not tradition but that of modern days

This part was already talked about in this section before escaping the approaching fire

My candle has begun to melt

This part is interesting. I found this web site.

Red Candles ( Fire Color )

Red:
Energy, vitality, and strength, health, passion, sex, love, protection, fire, fertility, fast action, strength, potency, lust, blood, Physical love and passion, courage, warmth, energy, attraction, magnetism, desire, action, physical strength, power, willpower.
Strengthens magnetism in a ritual, creates Ram and Scorpio energies.

Blue Candles ( Water Color )

Blue:
Communication, truth, peace, calm, loosing weight, wisdom, understanding, protection, harmony, inspiration, truth, patience, health and happiness, luck, communication, loyalty, peaceful, cooling, contentment, healing, idealism, harmony, devotion, meditation,

Notice Red candle part talks about two star signs RAM and SCORPIO. The last is interesting for reasons that will be explained later.

so its light has begun to fade from its brightest



The picture above shows the brightness color of the flame ( but not the hottest ) is the white. The next color would be yellow.
Now for why the Candle part is interesting. Remember this part

Ram and Scorpio energies.

Well, Scorpio is the star sign for November. The yellow topaz is the stone for November. And as we just showed yellow would be the color of the next brightest part of the flame.

And that is part one of this "solution"

Part two

Spoiler:

Let us look at the water color stones that are modern ( Blue ). Why blue? Well we are changing from red (fire) to blue (water).

March - Aquamarine - Light Blue

September - Sapphire - Dark Blue

December -Turquoise - Blue

As KID STOLE March's stone and a date has three parts: Day, Month, Year. Well we have three blue stones, but one of those the KID took, we need a replacement, and the last part of KID's note suggest one - November.
September is the ninth month and December the 12th. November is the 11th. That gives us our three parts: 9, 11, 12. But there is the question of order. As the last clue was for the Yellow Topaz, next to brightest part of a flame., We will make that the year 2011. That leaves the day and month. So is it 9 - 12 or is it 12 - 9. Well remember we are going from fire to water. September is a Fall month. December a Winter month. The day of the thief should be Monday, September 12 2011. And he will be stealing a Aquamarine.

And yes, You already said that is the wrong answer. Now it is time to show WHY.

@Eworm - I would have replied earlier, but I was working on this.

And just for fun with one change to Kogorou answer. His answer is as follows

Spoiler:

The three stones in question:
January(1)   Garnet                                           Garnet (red)
February(2) Amethyst                                    Amethyst(purple)
March(3)      Aquamarine                            Aquamarine(blue)

Figured out from:
Seek not tradition but that of modern days.

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace.
Leads us to:
ç

[Suutashi]

Well the process should be writing review revising review etc until as some say it passes muster.I be glad to made sure your riddle is actually solvable. We do not want to riddle to be solvable in more then one way after all. and it should be logical and possible. It should have all elements necessary to solve it there. But I do see a possible problem. more on that later

@ Suutashi - your riddle I believe fall in the solvable in more then one way class. Both my and Kogorou possible solutions are valid and you need to explain why they do not work, not just say they do not work.

And as for the change element

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace. It is one of the three that is a section of the twelve. Seek not tradition but that of modern days. My candle has begun to melt so its light has begun to fade from its brightest.

First thing is this part " Seek not tradition but modern". Well, the hint had two columns tradition and modern. The note seems to suggest we look only at modern stones.
next the phase "approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace" Jasper (trad) to Aquamarine (modern). Jasper is red the color of fire. Aquamarine is light blue the color of water. March's Star sign is Aquarius, a bearer of water. The stone of march is an Aquamarine. The word Aqua is a light blue color and is used often for water. Marine plants are plants that live in water. But there is a word play as well. These three words "fire beneath water". Beneath can also be written as under. That makes this part " fire under water". which could also be phased as under fire, water" As I already said Water could be Aqua. Now for the under fire part. Marine is also a soldier who could be "under fire". And notice the word marine is after aqua or under. See why I think the stone KID is seeking almost must be a Aquamarine.

Part One

I seek change

We are going to start using that phase to say a change of seasons in this case winter to spring and that month is March

see here for the following quote

Meteorological seasons are reckoned by temperature, with summer being the hottest quarter of the year and winter the coldest quarter of the year. Using this reckoning, the Roman calendar began the year and the spring season on the first of March, with each season occupying three months. In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina, an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[7] Therefore, in meteorology for the Northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December.

during the last moment

More on the above idea. The last season of the year in winter. The CHANGE is from the last season to the first

I may catch my breath

More evidence of the season change being from winter to spring. In winter you can see your breath and maybe even catch it. It is also one of the best seasons for CATCHING colds.

before escaping the approaching fire

Note the stone of March for Tradition is a Jasper. It is a red stone, and since red is used for fire, it could be though of as the Fire Gemstone of March. But there is that  word "CHANGE" we are changing from the Tradition to the Modern. The modern stone for March is an aquamarine.

beneath water's protective embrace

Note as I say in my earlier "wrong" answer aqua = water and marine =water. The changes are from the fire to the water, winter to spring, and tradition to modern. Water puts out fire, and is used for burns from fire to cool then down. The is also a change from the season of 'death' to the season of 'rebirth'. Being in water prevents fire from burning you.

It is one of the three

I believe we are still talking seasons here. Two have been mentioned, winter and spring and as we are going from fire to water, the third season should be fall. Fall has bright leaves, some of which are red, the color of FIRE. When winter comes, snow may carpet the landscape. Snow is a form of WATER vapor. The date of his thief is made up of these three seasons.

that is a section of the twelve

The twelve of the number of months in a year. Note that each season is made up of three months

Seek not tradition but that of modern days

This part was already talked about in this section before escaping the approaching fire

My candle has begun to melt

This part is interesting. I found this web site.

Red Candles ( Fire Color )

Red:
Energy, vitality, and strength, health, passion, sex, love, protection, fire, fertility, fast action, strength, potency, lust, blood, Physical love and passion, courage, warmth, energy, attraction, magnetism, desire, action, physical strength, power, willpower.
Strengthens magnetism in a ritual, creates Ram and Scorpio energies.

Blue Candles ( Water Color )

Blue:
Communication, truth, peace, calm, loosing weight, wisdom, understanding, protection, harmony, inspiration, truth, patience, health and happiness, luck, communication, loyalty, peaceful, cooling, contentment, healing, idealism, harmony, devotion, meditation,

Notice Red candle part talks about two star signs RAM and SCORPIO. The last is interesting for reasons that will be explained later.

so its light has begun to fade from its brightest



The picture above shows the brightness color of the flame ( but not the hottest ) is the white. The next color would be yellow.
Now for why the Candle part is interesting. Remember this part

Ram and Scorpio energies.

Well, Scorpio is the star sign for November. The yellow topaz is the stone for November. And as we just showed yellow would be the color of the next brightest part of the flame.

And that is part one of this "solution"

Part two

Let us look at the water color stones that are modern ( Blue ). Why blue? Well we are changing from red (fire) to blue (water).

March - Aquamarine - Light Blue

September - Sapphire - Dark Blue

December -Turquoise - Blue

As KID STOLE March's stone and a date has three parts: Day, Month, Year. Well we have three blue stones, but one of those the KID took, we need a replacement, and the last part of KID's note suggest one - November.
September is the ninth month and December the 12th. November is the 11th. That gives us our three parts: 9, 11, 12. But there is the question of order. As the last clue was for the Yellow Topaz, next to brightest part of a flame., We will make that the year 2011. That leaves the day and month. So is it 9 - 12 or is it 12 - 9. Well remember we are going from fire to water. September is a Fall month. December a Winter month. The day of the thief should be Monday, September 12 2011. And he will be stealing a Aquamarine.

And yes, You already said that is the wrong answer. Now it is time to show WHY.

@Eworm - I would have replied earlier, but I was working on this.

And just for fun with one change to Kogorou answer. His answer is as follows

Spoiler:

The three stones in question:
January(1)   Garnet                                           Garnet (red)
February(2) Amethyst                                    Amethyst(purple)
March(3)      Aquamarine                            Aquamarine(blue)

Figured out from:
Seek not tradition but that of modern days.

I seek change during the last moment I may catch my breath before escaping the approaching fire beneath water's protective embrace.
Leads us to:
ç

[eworm]

@sstimson

@ Suutashi - your riddle I believe fall in the solvable in more then one way class. Both my and Kogorou possible solutions are valid and you need to explain why they do not work, not just say they do not work.

You're asking why your answer is wrong. It's wrong because it's wrong. Kaitou Kid seeks a different jewel, he plans to strike on different day - and you can't complain to him, saying he has to act the way you think he should. Sure, it's better to have a riddle with one possible answer only - but it's a code. Everybody can interpret it differently. You need to find the correct way to look at it, that's it.

[sstimson]

@Eworm well to your above comment, a little of yes and no. From his hint, I see there is more to it, And I kinda understand why I missed the answer.

But my other comment still stands. Think of it this way. Detective  Conan is able to remove one of the normal suspects, but two remain. His problem is the evidences is strong for both the remaining suspects and both had means and motive. But the crime scene clearly shows only one could have done it. Conan is like me. Two possible answers have shown themselves. And You are also right only one could have done it. What I did by asking why was like checking the where about of our suspects. And once you know the why then, and only then can you make progress in the case. Like I said, in his hint, he explained the WHY. And I thank him for that.

[Suutashi]

@Eworm well to your above comment, a little of yes and no. From his hint, I see there is more to it, And I kinda understand why I missed the answer.

But my other comment still stands. Think of it this way. Detective  Conan is able to remove one of the normal suspects, but two remain. His problem is the evidences is strong for both the remaining suspects and both had means and motive. But the crime scene clearly shows only one could have done it. Conan is like me. Two possible answers have shown themselves. And You are also right only one could have done it. What I did by asking why was like checking the where about of our suspects. And once you know the why then, and only then can you make progress in the case. Like I said, in his hint, he explained the WHY. And I thank him for that.

Sstimson, I have told you and Kogorou when you were wrong and that should have been enough. When you were told that the answer you gave was incorrect you should have looked into other possible solutions. Also, when you and Kogorou gave your answers I gave you another hint. The part about Detective Conan being able to eliminate normal suspect I've been doing that each time an incorrect answer is given. If you read what I said about your last answer you would realize that I eliminated several possible answers and that's not counting what was typed in beige text. As for the

Suutashi - your riddle I believe fall in the solvable in more then one way class. Both my and Kogorou possible solutions are valid and you need to explain why they do not work, not just say they do not work.

thing. I told you this before and I'll say it again.

Spoiler:

You need to find a solution that fits all of the clues not just some of them. I've mentioned that change is an important clue so try to see how that may have something to do with the answer.

[sstimson]

@Eworm well to your above comment, a little of yes and no.

From his hint, I see there is more to it, And I kinda understand why I missed the answer.

But my other comment still stands. Think of it this way. Detective  Conan is able to remove one of the normal suspects, but two remain. His problem is the evidences is strong for both the remaining suspects and both had means and motive. But the crime scene clearly shows only one could have done it. Conan is like me. Two possible answers have shown themselves. And You are also right only one could have done it. What I did by asking why was like checking the where about of our suspects. And once you know the why then, and only then can you make progress in the case.

Like I said, in his hint, he explained the WHY. And I thank him for that.

Sstimson, I have told you and Kogorou when you were wrong and that should have been enough. When you were told that the answer you gave was incorrect you should have looked into other possible solutions. Also, when you and Kogorou gave your answers I gave you another hint. The part about Detective Conan being able to eliminate normal suspect I've been doing that each time an incorrect answer is given. If you read what I said about your last answer you would realize that I eliminated several possible answers and that's not counting what was typed in beige text. As for the

Suutashi - your riddle I believe fall in the solvable in more then one way class. Both my and Kogorou possible solutions are valid and you need to explain why they do not work, not just say they do not work.

thing. I told you this before and I'll say it again.

Spoiler:

You need to find a solution that fits all of the clues not just some of them. I've mentioned that change is an important clue so try to see how that may have something to do with the answer.

Read please the  above Bold Print.

One problem with your riddle is this: There should only be ONE completely right answer. All other answers should be provable wrong and why. Another way to try and explain this was a what if. What if my earlier riddle about the Diamond and the Ice had a different answer. What if the answer was for example a transporter beam put it there. And that was the answer. Yet someone like you said the clasp broke. It would be the wrong answer, but could it be proven to be the wrong answer? Well if I said ( and note again this is for example purpose only ) the clasp after the fact looked brand new then maybe. It sometimes is very important what is NOT MENTIONED. Just using what you have and nothing else can leave solution HOLES, where other possiblibilties enter.

Back to your riddle.  Two points, one of the reasons KID leaves note is he wants others at the scene when he borrows the things he is after, Note that in the KID's first DC note, the police completely missed understood its meaning. Only Conan was at the right place at the right time. I sure KID in his notes is playing a game. It like this: How hard can I make my messages so who I want to show up does without spelling it out for them. Note in that note as well, the same note as figured out in two completely different ways. Most of KID's later notes were easier puzzles so he can make sure he gets his audience. Yes the note will in the end show what KID did mean like in the first note. The trick is to be like Conan and figure out its TRUE meaning. Point number two is to find the right balance between spelling it all out and making it so hard no one shows up.

I can see but only because of your clue what I need to add to my solution. And while we are wrong to your way of thinking, We are not completely wrong until KID does his thing elsewhere. These are possible answers. And I did show you in long detail that I did indeed

find a solution that fits all of the clues not just some of them

Spoiler:

I now know two more things. One, a change of seasons is important. And as for part two I feel KID is more likely to used FIXED months.

The Japanese Part of your riddle I leave to Kogorou. My solution was completely logical. but your fire to water part is strange unless you go backwards as you showed it goes water to fire, not the other way around.

Yes at the moment both Kogorou and myself are like the police in the first encounter. It is possible KID may do his show this time on the stage to an empty theater.