Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 8th, 2011, 11:42 pm

Which one of those clauses did you change?

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » May 8th, 2011, 11:46 pm

that is the riddle put it another way these are your clauses

A=Lying
B=Lying
A=Cure
A=Cure

by changing one of above clauses should make this riddle solvable by logic

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 9th, 2011, 12:48 am

Ah...... I get it.

if that's the case

Spoiler:

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » May 10th, 2011, 6:15 am

AbEgho wrote: Ah...... I get it.

if that's the case
this is the case where one clause has been changed to resault in a solvable puzzle
[glow=red,2,300]Vial "A"[/glow]
[glow=blue,2,300]Vial "B"[/glow]
[glow=red,2,300]Vial A is lying;
vial A has the
antidote[/glow]
[glow=blue,2,300]Vial A is lying;
vial A has the
antidote[/glow]
On vial "A", it says that that the vial itself is lying about the fact that it has an antidote; so vial "A" is lying about lyingâ€”>telling the truth about the antidote.
Vial "B" is confirming such a fact that "A" is lying, ergo "A" has the antidote.
So I should drink Vial "A" to survive

Number 1 you did not show you work, So I will show you why that answer is incorrect

If A and B are both true Yes Drink A
If one of each ( One lie and one truth ) again your example is possible, drink A

BUT If both are lying ( a case like yours above each one true and one lie )
as if the statement that A is lying is true ( he is lying about being the cure, but telling the truth about lying )
same for B ( he is telling the truth - A lying and lying about A being the cure ) then you better drink B

try again

remember my four cases above

A=True A=Cure
A=Lie A=Cure
B=True B=Cure
B=Lie B=Cure

take each and show that only one can be true and the others are false or impossible.

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 10th, 2011, 6:40 am

sstimson wrote: take each and show that only one can be true and the others are false or impossible.

I did that, and that's how I ended up there.
I'll try that again.
This bloody thing shouldn't be such a brain-teaser; I suppose my brain is decaying.

Kogorou · Post by **Kogorou** » May 10th, 2011, 8:59 pm

AbEgho wrote: Aliens have abducted you and then poisened you.
They, however, offered you one chance of survival. If you succeed, you'll get the antidote, and you will, also, be set free.
They want to see how smart you are, so if you pass the test, you'll get back to your normal life, as though nothing had happened.
Their way of testing you is that they gave you two vials (one of which has the antidote, and the other has the same poisen you've been drugged with, earlier).
So one vial will cure you, and one vial will kill you even faster.
Spoiler: Here are the two vials
[img width=480]http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6681/vials.png[/img]
Don't let my masterful editing skills distract you!
So, what will you do?

Why do you use logic here?
You will only mess it up because you can't really figure out which one you have to change

Spoiler:

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 10th, 2011, 9:06 pm

Kogorou wrote:
AbEgho wrote: Aliens have abducted you and then poisened you.
They, however, offered you one chance of survival. If you succeed, you'll get the antidote, and you will, also, be set free.
They want to see how smart you are, so if you pass the test, you'll get back to your normal life, as though nothing had happened.
Their way of testing you is that they gave you two vials (one of which has the antidote, and the other has the same poisen you've been drugged with, earlier).
So one vial will cure you, and one vial will kill you even faster.
Spoiler: Here are the two vials
[img width=480]http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/6681/vials.png[/img]
Don't let my masterful editing skills distract you!
So, what will you do?

Why do you use logic here?
You will only mess it up because you can't really figure out which one you have to change

Spoiler:
There was never a word about that they would take the vials away.
You drink A and wait if you feel worse drink B, if not you are cured.

How do you know the poison is not latent; you think you had been cured, until the next day where you suddenly collapsed. Of course they would have let you believe that they let you free, because, apparently, you were not impressive enough.

Kogorou · Post by **Kogorou** » May 10th, 2011, 9:08 pm

If they wouldn't let me free I would simply make them go to hell with me

But never ever change a fact in a logic riddle.
Edit:
To explain:
Even if you put it into logic:
A: !B ^ A
B: !A ^ A
You will see that it isn't solveable because of !A ^ A = 0.
You don't have another chance than to drink both.

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 10th, 2011, 9:48 pm

Kogorou wrote: You don't have another chance than to drink both.

Yes, to which I say, that was............ the correct answer

eworm · Post by **eworm** » May 11th, 2011, 2:16 am

Jeez Louise, sstimson, this riddle is so weird. It's about creating a riddle. And it's a real pain to read the complicated answers.

Here is the solution:

Spoiler:

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 11th, 2011, 3:37 am

eworm wrote: Jeez Louise, sstimson, this riddle is so weird. It's about creating a riddle. And it's a real pain to read the complicated answers.
Here is the solution:

Spoiler:
The statements are:
A1 - Vial B is lying.
A2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
B1 - Vial A is lying.
B2 - The antidote is in the A vial.

Right now it's impossible to choose one vial and be sure of survival.

The lying statements. Can we change them?
If we change A1 to "Vial B tells the truth", then B1 "Vial A is lying" is true... Which means it isn't... And that makes no sense.
If we change B1 to "Vial A tells the truth:, then A1 "Vial B is lying" is true... Which means it isn't... Again, plain stupid.

Therefore it's obvious we shall change one of the "2" statements. A2 or B2.

What do we get after believing in the statements about lies?

A1 - Vial B is lying.
Therefore:
B1 becomes "Vial A tells the truth".
B2 becomes "The antidote is in the B vial".
But since "A tells the truth", the A2 is true - the antidote is in the A vial. So it's contradictory with the new B2.

B1 - Vial A is lying.
Therefore:
A1 becomes "Vial B tells the truth".
A2 becomes "The antidote is in the B vial".
But since "B tells the truth", the B2 is true - the antidote is in the A vial. It's contradictory again.

Which statement should we change then? B2 for example. If we make it "Vial B has the antidote", then the assumption of vial A lying clears everything: Vial B tells the truth (antidote in B) and A lies (antidote not in A). Everything fits.
But the same could be done with the A2 statement. If we make it "Vial B has the antidote", then the assumption of vial B lying clears everything: Vial A tells the truth (antidote in B) and B lies (vial A doesn't lie and the antidote is in B). It fits.

If we assume "Both vials tell the truth", the whole riddle becomes contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever.
Now let us assume "Both vials are lying". The statements become like this:
A1 - Vial B is telling the truth.
A2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
B1 - Vial A is telling the truth.
B2 - The antidote is in the B vial.

Our goal is to find a statement to change and get a result that is the same for "one vial lies" and "both vials lying", since we don't know how many of the vials lie when solving and have to consider both options.
The first option, as seen above, is to change A2 into "Vial B has the antidote" the whole thing becomes like this:
A1 - Vial B is lying.
A2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
B1 - Vial A is lying.
B2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
It makes sense if we assume vial B is lying (the antidote is in vial B then) - if it was vial A lying, it'd work too, but with a different result (antidote in the A vial). And now, if we assume BOTH are lying:
A1 - Vial B is telling the truth.
A2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
B1 - Vial A is telling the truth.
B2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
It's contradictory, so it's only one vial that's lying.
But since we got two possible answers in "One vial is lying" option, we can't be sure which vial to drink from.

Now, how about changing B2 into "The antidote is in the B vial"? The statements become like this:
A1 - Vial B is lying.
A2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
B1 - Vial A is lying.
B2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
If the A vial was lying, the antidote would be in the B vial. If the B vial was lying, the antidote would be in the A vial. Now the "Both are lying" option:
A1 - Vial B is telling the truth.
A2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
B1 - Vial A is telling the truth.
B2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
It's freaking contradictory again, since we know it's impossible for both vials to contain antidote.

SUMMA SUMMARUM: If we change A1 or B1 statement (the lying ones), the riddle becomes unsolvable and idiotic. If we change A2 statement, we can't be sure which vial contains the antidote (B for B lying and A for A lying). If we change B2 statement - again depending on which one actually tells the truth and which one doesn't, we get different antidote vials. In both cases it's impossible for both vials to lie at the same time.
Therefore it's impossible to make a logical and 100% solvable riddle by changing one statement.

IMPORTANT! I assumed that if, for example, "vial B is lying", BOTH of the B statements are false. I didn't analyse such options as "vial B is lying about this but not about that". It's too much to do and it would be pointless - after all I already proved that there exist two options for both A2-changed and B2-changed riddles.

Quod erat demonstrandum

Well first of all, let me say this:
QUOD ERAT NUMQUAM DEMONSTRANDUM.

Secondly:I can't even begin to describe how egregious your solution looks
Why would you even go with all those unnecessary trials, where you change more than one clause! sstimson's ground rule was:

sstimson wrote: Changing only one clause and leaving the rest alone,

So I'm gonna skip all the trials where you changed more than one clause.

eworm wrote: The first option, as seen above, is to change A2 into "Vial B has the antidote" the whole thing becomes like this:
A1 - Vial B is lying.
A2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
B1 - Vial A is lying.
B2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
It makes sense if we assume vial B is lying (the antidote is in vial B then) - if it was vial A lying, it'd work too, but with a different result (antidote in the A vial)

What doesn't make sense is that you'd assume B is lying and not A, or vice versa; that would, in no way, lead you anywhere.

eworm wrote: Now, how about changing B2 into "The antidote is in the B vial"? The statements become like this:
A1 - Vial B is lying.
A2 - The antidote is in the A vial.
B1 - Vial A is lying.
B2 - The antidote is in the B vial.
If the A vial was lying, the antidote would be in the B vial. If the B vial was lying, the antidote would be in the A vial.

Okay, I see why you dismissed that.

eworm wrote: SUMMA SUMMARUM: If we change A1 or B1 statement (the lying ones), the riddle becomes unsolvable and idiotic. If we change A2 statement, we can't be sure which vial contains the antidote (B for B lying and A for A lying). If we change B2 statement - again depending on which one actually tells the truth and which one doesn't, we get different antidote vials. In both cases it's impossible for both vials to lie at the same time.
Therefore it's impossible to make a logical and 100% solvable riddle by changing one statement.

Trying to dissmis all "possible" solutions and then claiming that the puzzle has no answer, when the riddler himself has stated otherwise, is no way to solve a puzzle

I'm not trying to be harsh here or anything (at least it is not intended), but I am, as you might be, frustrated, too. You might have partially analysed the riddle, but in now way did that lead to the solution

And one last note, the "Q.E.D" is aligned to the right; it is never centered.

eworm · Post by **eworm** » May 11th, 2011, 5:29 am

Secondly:I can't even begin to describe how egregious your solution looks
Why would you even go with all those unnecessary trials, where you change more than one clause! sstimson's ground rule was:
Changing only one clause and leaving the rest alone,
So I'm gonna skip all the trials where you changed more than one clause.

I never changed more than one - I just switched to "what if it was a lie" thing, for my own convenience. For example if there was a statement "B is lying" and the other statement stated that this one was a lie itself, I changed it to "B is telling the truth", just so it'd be easier to analyse the lie case.

What doesn't make sense is that you'd assume B is lying and not A, or vice versa; that would, in no way, lead you anywhere.

That was just an example, I do look into both options later on.

Trying to dissmis all "possible" solutions and then claiming that the puzzle has no answer, when the riddler himself has stated otherwise, is no way to solve a puzzle

Well, what's impossible is impossible. And for me it looks totally impossible. Have you noticed anything wrong with my answer, or something I missed? I don't see any other option, but it's possible I'm mistaken of course.
...
Wait, actually, I think I got it. It is a bit weird though...

Spoiler: SOLUTION

A.E. · Post by **A.E.** » May 11th, 2011, 6:58 am

eworm wrote: I never changed more than one - I just switched to "what if it was a lie" thing, for my own convenience. For example if there was a statement "B is lying" and the other statement stated that this one was a lie itself, I changed it to "B is telling the truth", just so it'd be easier to analyse the lie case.

You sure about that? Take a really careful look at your original post....

eworm · Post by **eworm** » May 11th, 2011, 9:11 am

I took and still don't see any mistake... Maybe I'm just overlooking it, if you could pinpoint where exactly do you see something wrong... Anyway, I've already switched to another solution of mine, as seen in the previous post.

Spoiler: Here it is

Kogorou · Post by **Kogorou** » May 11th, 2011, 2:32 pm

You just can't chance statements -.-
The whole thing is a opposition and can't be solved that way with logic.
Because of this I don't even want to read all your funny answers

I'm thinking about a small riddle right now^^
OKay I'll just take another one:

I come out of the earth I am sold in the market. He who buys me cuts my tail takes off my suit of silk and weeps beside me when I am dead. What am I?

Sorry I don't have that much time lately.
BUt I keep on working on Williams and Borner.
The Title is "Aunt Merry and the World"

It will be finished after eworms next Brain Frying Riddle #4

Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread

Re: Kogorous Riddle Thread and eworms Deduction Thread