Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

Tho Takagi and Chiba would be seem even weaker then? :V

I don't think it would make the FBI better than takagi/chiba, because they can still arrest which is a pretty big deal, and I think arrest is generally more useful than observe.

[Kleene Onigiri]

True that. Personally I like stake-out But not everyone does :V


Also had an idea:
Cross-examine and interrogation are the same keywords. (when investigated).
Also, cross-examine gets a "true" or "false" result.

Slander just works on interrogate so far. But I think  we could extend it on cross-examine.
So, when a person gets slandered, and that person didn't do a crime yet, the result will be "true" instead of "false" when cross-examined.

[Dus]

Cross-examine is generally less useful than interrogate though (especially initially), which it makes up by being more reliable - and one reason why I introduced it was, that it made blame more useful, since you can "slander" cross-examine with blame.

[Kleene Onigiri]

True, but that's just for town.
If you have a BO that did a crime, you can't fix it with blame :x
You can erase the crime for that night. But once someone did a crime, erasing a crime in the current phase won't help.

Was just a idea tho. It's not a necessary change XD

[Akonyl]

I think cross-examine's fine enough as-is, we don't need two ways to muddle an ability just one person has. Cross-examine doesn't necessarily get a BO anyway, in the cases of bourbon/snipers who haven't killed anyone yet (or a tequila who hasn't frightened or killed).

Edit:
Also, another suggestion which I was thinking of adding into my round, but may as well just suggest now, now that CTU's round is over:

I think that Bribe-killing should be re-introduced as a one-time-use Black Suitcase action. So:
Black Suitcase
- Role with that action: Anokata or BO Leader
- Day action
- During each day the Leader (also, next highest-ranked BO in case Leader dies or is arrested) can decide to give the "Black Suitcase" to any player (even himself). He can also choose a substitute in case that player is killed/arrested.
- Has to give it to someone, otherwise no one will recieve the Black Suitcase
- During the next night the receiver can pretend to use any existing Night ability. However, the player will never get a result for that action. ("Heal" won't heal the target)
- The player can use his real ability (for example Slander) and a fake ability (for example Investigate 5 or Heal etc.) in the same night.
- If the player is discombobulated, the Black Suitcase action will fail as well as any other Night actions. Meaning the investigation of that fake action will come out as "False".
- The player will be notified, that he was discombobulated, even if he doesn't have a real night ability.
- Alternately, if someone holding the Black Suitcase is assigned to perform the night killing, they may instead use the Bribe ability by throwing all the (probably counterfeit :V) money inside at the GM. This may only be used once per game, and a player using the Black Suitcase to perform a Bribe-killing can't use the BS to fake any other actions that night.

basically, I think that Bribe's pretty useful for the game (as it solves the problem of overly-talkative jailbirds and travelers), but I disagreed with Pisco having it because it was too crucial of an ability for the BO, as it should be something they always have access to. This would fix that, so it's a good idea imo.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Sounds nice xD

Imo, it's quite a strong ability, and the BO would be able to have it always (regardless if they have pisco or not). So maybe they can't give out the BS the next day after they used bribe too? But the day after that one pause.

(so if they use bribe on night 2, Day 2 they can't give out the BS. But they can give out the BS on day 3 again.)

[Akonyl]

I'm not sure that limitation would really be necessary, as they already need to sacrifice the BS for that night, along with having to basically choose the murderer the day beforehand if they want to do the bribe killing, which could go badly if that person gets in hot water and ends up being checked or something.

also, we were trying to make the BO strong anyway earlier, so that we can have games with fewer than the typical 1/3-1 BO, and I think this does that pretty well in a way that isn't dependent on any one BO role being in the game.

[Dus]

I like the idea. But I would argue that it might be a good idea to make the BS completely unusable afterwards, so that using bribe becomes a bit of a sacrifice for the BO.

[Jd-]

I'm not sure I get it. So they could do either one? I don't really see the necessity for that.

I played as Jodie yesterday, and I gotta tell you: She and Camel really need this boost. It's not even that big of one, but they really just need this little bit. Having just Observe is only so useful, and it's pretty much useless after a certain point in the game.

[Dus]

Come to think of it, I've never been Jodie/Camel iirc. And observe is probably a lot more useful for the BO. But I've never been a huge fan of stake-out. And I remember observe as being quite useful for us in round 14.

[Akonyl]

I'm not sure I get it. So they could do either one? I don't really see the necessity for that.

I played as Jodie yesterday, and I gotta tell you: She and Camel really need this boost. It's not even that big of one, but they really just need this little bit. Having just Observe is only so useful, and it's pretty much useless after a certain point in the game.

I wouldn't say that it's useless (especially if you're told that there's no vermouth), but they're probably sub-par right now. Observe is basically an interrogate that nets you trustworthy people (children/teenagers), but when it gives you an Adult result it's not very helpful at all.

As for destroying the BS because of bribe: I thought of that, but I think that hinders them a bit too much to the point where they would typically avoid ever using it.

Again, the point is that we're supposed to be making the BO more powerful, which was the reason for giving Gin double-slander, the snipers abilities to blend in, bribe for pisco, etc. A more powerful BO means that you can have an equally fearsome group with less members, which I'm pretty sure we're aiming for. The 1/3-1 formula that we're typically using now pans out in one of three scenarios:
1) A BO win that happens on Day 4 because the BO need to kill so few people to win
2) A lengthy, balanced game
3) A lopsided town win that still takes half a month because you have to get rid of so many BOs

and more often than not, games seem to be options 1 or 3 most of the time, not option 2. If the number of BOs is reduced, but the strength of the BO is increased, lopsided wins won't be as obscenely short/long, and the game will have more phases that actually matter rather than having everything decided in the first two days.

Come to think of it, I've never been Jodie/Camel iirc. And observe is probably a lot more useful for the BO. But I've never been a huge fan of stake-out. And I remember observe as being quite useful for us in round 14.

round 14 should also never be used as a reference to any rules changing, ever

[Schillok]

round 14 should also never be used as a reference to any rules changing, ever

Hey, I was the GM that round! And while the POs for BO did not work out so well for the ones doing it (ohh, and despite the game ending in scenario 3) I think I made some good changes and additions that are still used in the recent rounds. Those are mainly new characters (Kobayashi, Yukiko, Asami) and changes to existing roles and characters that are still in effect now (revenge, new first aid, accompany) as well as refining some new mechanics like"injured" etc.
Sure, some things only made sense that round, some things are purely optional for the GM but otherwise I think it was a good step in evolving the game.


Now to the other changes:
First of all, I am always for making it possible to play with less BO for the same chance for both sides to win.

Jodie and Camel should perhaps be changed to having "Observe OR Stake-Out" rather than just Observe. This would put them a little closer to Takagi/Chiba, and make them a little more useful.
As far as this making it harder for Chianti to pretend to be Jodie, they're both investigated as the same thing anyway, and Korn already has this problem if he tries to pretend to be takagi/chiba, as he can't arrest so it would be good to make chianti closer to korn.

I think this is a good idea. I never played Camel or Jodie so I have no first-hand experience how good they are, but I always considered them kind of straight-forwards. Their ability seems useful and simple, like a perfect role for a new player to have to get accustomed. Giving them a bit more options (I consider stake-out t o be weaker as well) should be fine.
The biggest deal is for Chianti and Korn anyway. So far Chinati was sooooo much more useful for the BO, with this change they are finally (almost) equal again.
Not sure if they are too equal now, meaning they would play identical, but if I were BO I wouldn't mind having two snipers that can observe or stake-out. As mentioned before, observing is very useful for the BO.

- Alternately, if someone holding the Black Suitcase is assigned to perform the night killing, they may instead use the Bribe ability by throwing all the (probably counterfeit :V) money inside at the GM. This may only be used once per game, and a player using the Black Suitcase to perform a Bribe-killing can't use the BS to fake any other actions that night.

basically, I think that Bribe's pretty useful for the game (as it solves the problem of overly-talkative jailbirds and travelers), but I disagreed with Pisco having it because it was too crucial of an ability for the BO, as it should be something they always have access to. This would fix that, so it's a good idea imo.

Well, I would suggest the following change for bribe: It no longer erases its target. It is an unstoppable kill, but if the BO wants to keep the will, they must have Pisco either doing the killing or assisting in removing the body.
It would also finally make Natsuki (who also bribes) more similar to the other criminals. Next time the BO might consider waiting a bit longer before contacting a criminal. Because if there is Natsuki in the game doing so might expose their own members...
Also, the town could be talked into letting the criminal live a bit longer if he/she convinces them that he is Natsuki.

Otherwise: Having an unstoppable killing once in the game should be okay. Of course it decreases the usefulness  of the defensive roles again, but that should be an acceptable trade for giving the BO a final chance to kill a well-protected player.

True that. Personally I like stake-out But not everyone does :V


Also had an idea:
Cross-examine and interrogation are the same keywords. (when investigated).
Also, cross-examine gets a "true" or "false" result.

Slander just works on interrogate so far. But I think  we could extend it on cross-examine.
So, when a person gets slandered, and that person didn't do a crime yet, the result will be "true" instead of "false" when cross-examined.

Having cross-examine and interrogate share the same keyword sounds good to me. And while we are already at it: Can we remove Eris "Voice of Reason"? She already has a unique ability and has lawsuit as an additional - though situational - bonus. Also, it would make her closer to Kogoro, who also has 2 abilities (interrogate, which is weaker than cross-examine until he becomes sober (and even then the abilities are similar), and analayze which is stronger than lawsuit (usually) but requires him to be sober as well).

However: The bane of cross-examine is blame. And of course the townies that commit crimes. And Piscos new erase ability. I don't think we should also add slander to that, Gin is already good enough the way he is right now.

[Akonyl]

I'm fine with making Bribe no longer erase targets, as it would indeed help take the focus of games with criminals away from the "the BO must find the criminal quickly" playstyle they have now, and it's not part of its primary reason.

As for Eri: I still don't think she should necessarily have VoA taken from her. Lawsuit has still yet to be a useful ability, with the only times it's been used resulting in the person being APTXed or re-arrested so that they weren't APTXed, which would leave her solely with Cross-Examine, which I believe is worse than actual interrogate. So, Cross-Examine/Lawsuit/VoA still sounds fine to me. Options don't always equal usefulness.

If anything, maybe make the rules say "VoA may only be used once per game", in the case of Kobayashi + Eri being in the same game, imo.

Also: It already is the same keyword as interrogate, that wasn't part of kleene's suggestion

[Kleene Onigiri]

Yeah, it's the same keyword already But it's just stated in the keyword section. So adding it into the ability description from cross-examine and interrogation would be good XD

I like that bribe no longer erases targets and wills. That was a reason why I wanted to give a greater penalty than akonyl suggested. But if it doesn't kill and erase the target for 100% anymore, akonyls penalty is enough for the BS/bribe killing

Problem I see with removing VoR for Eri is, that once VoR is used, it's obvious that Kobayashi is in the game. And Kobayashi is already a good target for APTX with the knowledge that someone can heal+panties stolen :V
Tho someone was also APTX as Araide, because there was no VoR used in the game for long and we knew that that person can heal :x

I thought of giving VoR only to Kazuha maybe. Since she's kinda a role used for Votes and such anyway.

[Akonyl]

I like that bribe no longer erases targets and wills. That was a reason why I wanted to give a greater penalty than akonyl suggested. But if it doesn't kill and erase the target for 100% anymore, akonyls penalty is enough for the BS/bribe killing

I hope you mean "if it doesn't both kill and erase the target for 100% anymore", because it still kills the target 100% of the time.

Problem I see with removing VoR for Eri is, that once VoR is used, it's obvious that Kobayashi is in the game. And Kobayashi is already a good target for APTX with the knowledge that someone can heal+panties stolen :V
Tho someone was also APTX as Araide, because there was no VoR used in the game for long and we knew that that person can heal :x

I thought of giving VoR only to Kazuha maybe. Since she's kinda a role used for Votes and such anyway.

it might make a bit of sense, but I think Kazuha is good as she is. She's basically a healer who not only gets to heal a target, but also lands a penalty to the BO if she does.