Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[PT]

Oh right, you guys killed Satou.

I suppose, but it didn't actually set you guys back too much, unlike when you were lovers with Commi and it screwed the BO up several times. (Then again, different games, who knows what's gonna happen, etc, etc.)

I see your point though, and it would depend on how we change arresting, I guess.

[pofa]

Akonyl brought up several things I wanted to mention. The detention thing should have been obvious, but I had already told Kirby three days in the PM before I realized what that meant. So yeah, let's change the wording there.

Question: If a traveler who is not in Japan gets lynched, what happens? Does the whole lynch fail, or does the person with the next many votes get lynched? Are the votes shown? (Because it'd be pretty obvious what happened then.) Same for if the lynch target gets APTX'd, does anyone still get lynched?

Kir had both SI and I this round because I forgot to change it, though I know there was debate about that beforehand.

Balancing with the criminal, still dunno. breva found the BO quite quickly and was therefore a help, though she could just as easily have killed a bunch of them.

Can deduction/spy be investigated? The rules say yes, so I did too. But there is no target.

Also, something random: I'm thinking we might want to not let Vermouth disguise as Jirokichi anymore. It occurred to me this round that if they had both Vermouth/Jirokichi and Akemi, the BO could find and kill the whole police force within a few phases by giving people gems and then stealing them every night, then killing the contacted officer. Or else modify the "Jiro contacts an officer" thing.

[PT]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Jiro's role says he can't be a disguise. Lemme double check, but I think I looked into that early in this round when Parkur told me blurf was Jirokichi.

Edit:

Jirokichi Suzuki, old fartExperienced Explorer, Veteran Adventurer, and Eccentric Multimillionaire
Night action: Give Gem
Interrogation: Not BO
Scent: No
Disguise: No
Items: Gems. Lots of them
Observe: Adult
If one of his Gems gets stolen, he will get into contact with Nakamori, so they can bring down Kid together.

[pofa]

Oh, wow. Then I misread. I guess that's fine then.

blurf/Parkur, why didn't you correct me on that when I told you that either of you could be in disguise? >_<

[PT]

I even corrected Parkur on that. >.< He was wondering if blurf was Vermouth, and I was like "No, he can't be." And Parkur's like "pofa said he could!" XD

[Akonyl]

I see your point though, and it would depend on how we change arresting, I guess.

yeah, I'm not all that sure either. Maybe let us APTX imprisoned people?

Question: If a traveler who is not in Japan gets lynched, what happens? Does the whole lynch fail, or does the person with the next many votes get lynched? Are the votes shown? (Because it'd be pretty obvious what happened then.) Same for if the lynch target gets APTX'd, does anyone still get lynched?

lynch votes, at least in previous rounds, haven't "leaked down" to the person with the second most votes. In round 13, nom got lynched the same day she was arrested, so there was no lynching that day. The same should probably apply to travelers and APTXed people.

Edit: Also Akai's Vengeance ability sort of alludes to this, as he can be APTXed and "lynched" the same day, setting off his ability.
Edit2: Although, for travelers it might be best to have it copycat a Voice Of Reason and not show the votes, otherwise it would out the person as being a traveler immediately.

Balancing with the criminal, still dunno. breva found the BO quite quickly and was therefore a help, though she could just as easily have killed a bunch of them.

I'm still not a huge fan of the whole criminal thing, tbh. As it stands now, it pins too much stake on finding the criminal in the first place, rather than finding out other peoples' identities.

Can deduction/spy be investigated? The rules say yes, so I did too. But there is no target.

if it can be, I think it'd be good to have it be something like "Akonyl deduces something about PT" and if PT is in the spying/deduction list, a true would be returned. But, several ways this could be done.

Also, something random: I'm thinking we might want to not let Vermouth disguise as Jirokichi anymore. It occurred to me this round that if they had both Vermouth/Jirokichi and Akemi, the BO could find and kill the whole police force within a few phases by giving people gems and then stealing them every night, then killing the contacted officer. Or else modify the "Jiro contacts an officer" thing.

Eh, I'd say let her disguise as Jiro, but add a clause that says something like "Because Vermouth is not suicidal, she likes to stay away from the police and thus will not contact them when her gems are stolen."

RM: Nevermind about that then. :V

[PT]

yeah, I'm not all that sure either. Maybe let us APTX imprisoned people?

Ehh... dunno how I feel about that. Though I suppose it could work. (I did notice the use of the word "us" there, though. *lynches Ako on Day 1 in Round 22* )

lynch votes, at least in previous rounds, haven't "leaked down" to the person with the second most votes. In round 13, nom got lynched the same day she was arrested, so there was no lynching that day. The same should probably apply to travelers and APTXed people.

I'm pretty sure we poisoned breva in the same phase she would've been lynched in Round 16 and it ended up with nobody being lynched that day, too.

[Akonyl]

yeah, I'm not all that sure either. Maybe let us APTX imprisoned people?

Ehh... dunno how I feel about that. Though I suppose it could work. (I did notice the use of the word "us" there, though. *lynches Ako on Day 1 in Round 22* )

it seems like a bit of a "meh" solution to me as well, but of any of the solutions it'd probably have the least impact on the game. The thing it'd have the most impact on would be Eri's lawsuit (when you're sure enough they're town, they may be APTXed already), however now that she has cross-investigate and VoR she's pretty powerful as-is.

[xpon]

btw.. 7 BO + 1 Criminal who work with the BO is far more dangerous then 13 BO !!!!!!!!!!!

[Schillok]

btw.. 7 BO + 1 Criminal who work with the BO is far more dangerous then 13 BO !!!!!!!!!!!

But as long as the criminal does not cooperate with the BO it is much more dangerous for both sides. The question is of course: How did Breva find out who the BO are (seemingly before the rest of the town)?

yeah, I'm not all that sure either. Maybe let us APTX imprisoned people?

Ehh... dunno how I feel about that. Though I suppose it could work. (I did notice the use of the word "us" there, though. *lynches Ako on Day 1 in Round 22* )

it seems like a bit of a "meh" solution to me as well, but of any of the solutions it'd probably have the least impact on the game. The thing it'd have the most impact on would be Eri's lawsuit (when you're sure enough they're town, they may be APTXed already), however now that she has cross-investigate and VoR she's pretty powerful as-is.

Which is why I suggest changing Eri anyway. Cross-examine is already a good ability that could be her only action and still make her good. Let us at least remove VoR from her.
I guess poisoning in prison is the easiest thing to solve a townie getting arrested to become unkillable. Though... a traveler stying abroad is exactly the same. I don't think it is necessary to remove that tactical possibility from the town. And seriously: Most of the time, how many would trust an arrested player they know nothing about? I think the punishment of losing a townie who won't b able to influence the game in any way except for coordinating townies (losing his/her actions and vote) in the process should be fair enough.
Also, this strategy was not enough for the town to win last game. So it is nothing that requires immediate attention.

I'm still not a huge fan of the whole criminal thing, tbh. As it stands now, it pins too much stake on finding the criminal in the first place, rather than finding out other peoples' identitities

Well, it is up to the GM. Having criminals in the list of available roles does not do anything if the GM simply decides not to use them (and not tell anyone). However, it is true that they can make a game very swingy - which might lead to an exciting or a very one-sided game. Imagine Breva killing Kleene during day 2 the last game (just like Anokata got killed day2 3 games ago)...
But in the end, it is a personal taste/distaste thing.

Akonyl brought up several things I wanted to mention. The detention thing should have been obvious, but I had already told Kirby three days in the PM before I realized what that meant.  So yeah, let's change the wording there.

I said it in the game thread already: I think we should change detention completely. People did not like the idea of giving Akai and ability that discombobulates and protects at the same time (as his only ability beside vindicate). Here we have an ability that discombobulates and heals AND frightens AND protects from APTX for 3 phases. On Satô, who can already investigate 3 and arrest normally as well.
I don't think it makes for a good play. If Akonyl were a townie he would be pretty much out of the complete last game, without any chance. Without even knowing WHY he was arrested. (As Bourbon at least he knew what happened.) It helped hiding that many townies (myself included) played badly last game but a single ability should not be able to do that.

If we keep detention the way it is now... I don't think it would be a good idea. You can be sure that if I become Satô, I would discomb-frighten-heal at any possible chance, no matter of the target. And I would use my other abilities to play "normally" as well.


part 2 following soon.

[xpon]

how about if the Criminal won, the BO and Town LOSE!

[Schillok]

Alright, some things from after this round:

-Arrest: As I've stated before, but it was dismissed as a "well has that ever happened?" thing: I think there should be some clause to keep from crime-townies being arrested solely to do stuff from jail. The fact that it's a crime is supposed to be a drawback, not a buff. Though, I'm not sure what.

It is still a drawback. Making a buff out of it is very hard. The question is if it is really worth the effort. Also, the BO could do to pretend doing exactly the same.

-Kir:After looking at Schillok's list of Betrayal info, I realized that Betrayal as it stands is a little too random in how good it is. The majority of the actions that it randomly picks up are things like "Gin slandered someone", "Vodka discombobbed someone", "Chianti observed someone", etc. All of these do little more than say "Gin/Vodka/Chianti is in the game", because these are all abilities that the BO members are going to be using nearly every night. However, the killing action betrayal will tell you something like "Gin killed on Night 1", which is immensely more useful, as not only is it an action not used every night by every member, but a crime that you know the target of fairly certainly because the dead people are revealed in the phase change post. So, if you have someone in mind who "may be Gin", and you know Gin killed on Night 2, and that on Night 2, Akonyl died, you can Special Investigate " killed Akonyl on Night 2", giving you a much higher chance to find the actual crime which you can arrest him for.

I'm not saying that's overpowered or anything, but instead I think that Kir should perhaps have some way of making Betrayal not as random, as Kir could easily get a lot of "dud" betrayals one game and multiple "killing" betrayals the next game and be much better. And I'd hate to be Kir and only get get duds.

I am okay with the way it is. Finding out that "BO X is in the game" is good enough for a passive ability. (Remember that Kir also has Special Investigate OR Investigate 1.)
Also - it helped me determining that Yurikochan was in deed Kaito Kid, since Akemi stole during night 3 when she was arrested already. So in the moment it is an ability that tells you "BO X is in the game and was not hindered using his/her ability". Though, I would like to extend the list of what betrayal can find out. I think finding which ability Calvados copied should be no problem. Also Anokata blaming someone. Maybe even see the abilities gained by a disguise of Irish or Vermouth.
A bit randomness is okay. In the end, it is more of a powerful "bonus" to her Special Investigate power.

Things I was thinking would be sweet before the round, in the form of role suggestions:

Pisco: I never really liked bribe as an ability for Pisco, though it's good for Natsuki I guess. Anyway, rather than having Bribe, Pisco would become:

Spoiler:

Pisco, Mafia Eraser
Night action: Erase Body or Erase Evidence
Interrogation: BO
Scent: Yes
Disguise: No
Items: Gun, Car-keys, Alcohol
Observe: Adult

Erase Body = Erase in its current incarnation, one-time use ability when he's not killing, etc.

Erase Evidence = Basically anti-blame.
- Pisco may erase any crime happening this night.
- Pisco can only erase each type of crime once ( can't erase Gin slandering himself on Night 1 and erase Calvados slandering Shinichi on Night 2 )
- An erased crime still goes through, however any investigations or arrests on it will return false/fail.
- Only crimes with targets can be erased, so you can't erase "Vermouth disguises as Eri on Night 1".
- May only be used if Pisco is not using Erase Body the same night. (just clarification :V)

This solves my issue with Pisco of being a semi-sniper (but better in a way), along with going along with his theme a bit more and I recall some people saying that the police were too powerful last round so this would perhaps alleviate that a bit.

Don't like it. I think it does exactly the wrong thing. The town is supposed to find crimes
Yeah, Gin interrogated, investigated slandering himself and stake-outed is supposed to get caught by that combination. Beside, if the the BO knows that much already they could just kill the interrogator. Or use one of the other tricks possible. (Did you know what would happen if another BO with the suitcase uses it to "Slander Gin"? Or what happens if Aonkata blames "the investigator slanders Gin"?) There are ways out of it...

Though, I must admit the "bribe" abilities is nothing I am particularly fond of either. It sure has its uses but flavor-wise it is really weird. As town you have no way to defend against it and as BO you don't want to waste it. It also solves the problem of "unkillable" townies (if in jail or abroad). Though, that would mean the BO has to have Pisco and still not haven used it.
Erasing identities and wills is pretty useful already, though obviously not enough for a BO role. But erasing traces of crimes is something we should avoid.
Failed arrests despite perfect reasoning about a BOs crime, stake-out becoming more useless, investigating crimes becoming less reliable and the impact on some other abilities would be huge. Would deduce succeed if the killer was erase-evidenced? Would Betrayal be able to notice the crime? Will face-pinching still work? Will arresting for a disguise work? What about house-search on a disguised player? House-search in general?
I don't think it is worth it. Beside, when playing a townie: After having confirmed all their possible crimes and not finding anything, I want to be able to trust the player. And not have to worry about the chance of a role in the game that will most likely erase-evidence the current killer of the night each time anyway.

Toichi: A new role that is largely unnecessary, but I think would be neat:

Spoiler:

Toichi Kuroba, Master of Disguise
Night action: White Magical Suitcase of Disguise
Night action: Grand Disguise
Interrogation: Not BO
Scent: No
Disguise: No
Items: Gun, Car-keys, Glasses?, Headgear + items from disguise
Observe: Adult (except when disguised)

White Magical Suitcase of Disguise: Sorta like the Black Suitcase.
- Each night, Toichi can choose a character who he wants to disguise as. Any character is valid, as long as they're a valid disguise choice.
- That night, Toichi counts as being disguised as that character and can hand in any actions that character could, and also holds their item list.
- Toichi, though disguised, cannot be investigated for these disguises and they will all return false.
- Toichi can't have the same item stolen twice (if he has a schoolbook stolen as Kobayashi, as Shinichi he would have nothing to steal)
- These handed in actions act like Black Suitcase actions, in that they can be investigated as being true but won't actually do anything.

Grand Disguise:
- The phase that Grand Disguise is used, all actions handed in by Toichi will have their intended effect, as in a normal disguise.
- Grand Disguise can only be used once. Grand Disguise cannot be stopped in any way, taking effect before any other actions, including arrest.
- Toichi cannot perform arrests, House Searches or Detentions with Grand Disguise.

The purpose would basically be that he pretends to be a role so that he gets the BO to blow an APTX on him, while not being overpowered in his ability to disguise at whim by only actually being able to have one night of actual actions. Don't really expect him to go in the game as-is that way, but throwin him out there

[/quote]

Sounds interesting. Though, I would suggest he keeps the disguise even during the day so the Detective Boys also get fooled by him. Though, I wonder what would happen if he copied Kazuha that way... will fake accompany give feedback to its target?
Good thing you added the "legal disguise" clause, because we don't want to have him copy a BO or criminal and kill someone, right?
Of course there are a few more things that should be considered:
1) Will he also benefit from the passive abilities of townies? Meaning: Kir's Betrayal, James FBI-leader (Getting 2 actions of his subordinates and/or knowing the number of FBI agants in the game) and Akais vengeance?
2) While disguised as police, would he able to get in contact with Jirokichi if a Gem was stolen?
3) What would happpen if Nakamori face-pinched him? (I would say he should be arrested, Nakamori was hunting him 10 years ago anyway.)


Otherwise, since he is dead I think the GM should not use him too often. It also seems to be a rather complicated role. I wouldn't mind playing him but I am not sure if he is a choice for new player...

how about if the Criminal won, the BO and Town LOSE!

No. The game is about the conflict between town and BO. I don't think anyone would want the game to end because Okuda randomly killed his target during day 2. Or the BO losing when they killed all police (because they have to to win) and not reducing the number of remaining townies below their own number.

[xpon]

then how to prevent BO + Criminal?

or how about the BO can report anyone as criminal and made the criminal arrested and then the BO get reward.. like extra APTX or anything!

[Schillok]

then how to prevent BO + Criminal?

or how about the BO can report anyone as criminal and made the criminal arrested and then the BO get reward.. like extra APTX or anything!

Nah, the town is supposed to catch the criminal, not the BO. The BO should only worry about not getting one of their own killed by him/her. Like poor Tequila in the manga.

Also, it can't be prevented by the GM otherwise. The ratio of BO VS town is the only way to adjust. Which is hard, so I can understand why a GM would rather not use criminals in his/her game.

[xpon]

so if i am criminal... i just need to say in the thread this: "contact me please... i am criminal"