Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

[Blaze of Glory]

Okay, I'm convinced Okiya isn't Bourbon however I won't completely let go of suspicion in case he might pull a fast one on us in the future. So now I'm thinking that it might be Eisuke who is the BO member.

Problems if "Bourbon Eisuke" is bad
1)It would require a tortuous trainwreck of logic to explain Eisuke's behavior between the org vs. the FBI and the red vs. black arcs. It would be unbelievable. I will make the assumption that he hasn't ratted out Hidemi because she is his sister. I suppose you can explain the reason why he hasn't turned Conan or Haibara in yet is because he has a crush on Ran and turning in the shrunken teens would mean Ran will likely get killed. ... But if Eisuke suspected Conan from near the get go, why would he have waited on turning them in before he had developed attractions to Ran?

Probably to confirm his suspicions of Conan being Shinichi so he doesn't make a mistake that will end up with him facing Gin's wrath.

2)Why would Bourbon hate Akai? After all, Akai got himself apparently killed in order to save Hidemi. If Eisuke were Bourbon, he should be grateful.

Because he's trying to pump information out of Kir and  have him placed under surveillance as well as be put in the witness protection program.

3)Would the org trust the son of a CIA agent?

They're able to trust the daughter of a CIA agent so I don't see them not being able to trust the son.

4)Wouldn't his sister know that he was in the org and inform everyone about it? She is a protagonist after all...

It's like Gin said "Bourbon is secretive and no one knows where he is or what he's doing. That pretty much describes Eisuke when the story is no longer focusing on him or he's not in Conan or Ran's site.

5)Conan doesn't feel like he would have that type of personality (snake nail hammer case). He would would have to be a ridiculously good actor...

Vermouth is and look how easily she fooled everyone. 

Excluding Conan he pretty much fooled everyone into believing that he's an idiot.

Case closed

[IvanM]

It have to be Sonoko, as Gin shoots in Movie 5 on her, he stops after he noticed she wan't Sherry. But normaly he would kill all witnesess.

movies arent a part of the manga plot 

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Problems if "Bourbon Eisuke" is bad
1)It would require a tortuous trainwreck of logic to explain Eisuke's behavior between the org vs. the FBI and the red vs. black arcs. It would be unbelievable. I will make the assumption that he hasn't ratted out Hidemi because she is his sister. I suppose you can explain the reason why he hasn't turned Conan or Haibara in yet is because he has a crush on Ran and turning in the shrunken teens would mean Ran will likely get killed. ... But if Eisuke suspected Conan from near the get go, why would he have waited on turning them in before he had developed attractions to Ran?

Probably to confirm his suspicions of Conan being Shinichi so he doesn't make a mistake that will end up with him facing Gin's wrath.

Gin doesn't mind a false positive or two, evidenced by the fact that he ordered Chianti to shoot Conan while they were targeting Kogoro in the Syndicate vs. the FBI arc. Conan behaved suspiciously, and that was enough to make him a target, despite being a kid. And again it is worthwhile to repeat that Eisuke's actions would be very hard to explain in a way that is consistent with him being a bad guy in the org.

2)Why would Bourbon hate Akai? After all, Akai got himself apparently killed in order to save Hidemi. If Eisuke were Bourbon, he should be grateful.

Because he's trying to pump information out of Kir and  have him placed under surveillance as well as be put in the witness protection program.

I am a bit confused... Are you saying Eisuke has made up the story about hating Akai so that he can protect him?

3)Would the org trust the son of a CIA agent

They're able to trust the daughter of a CIA agent so I don't see them not being able to trust the son.

Hidemi Hondou is infiltrating the organization under the codename Mizunashi Rena. They do not know she is the daughter of Ethan Hondou, the CIA agent. They would probably kill her if they found that out. As I mentioned above, Eisuke used his real name and the org would definitely find out he was related to the infiltrator Ethan Hondou. I would imagine they would be extremely hesitant to take him in. Also he was raised by CIA agent friends of Ethan Hondou. That would make his participation in the org even less likely.

4)Wouldn't his sister know that he was in the org and inform everyone about it? She is a protagonist after all...

It's like Gin said "Bourbon is secretive and no one knows where he is or what he's doing. That pretty much describes Eisuke when the story is no longer focusing on him or he's not in Conan or Ran's site.

I suppose it is possible that Eisuke could have managed to tap dance around his sister, but I find it difficult to believe. What if the boss or some other agent ordered them to work together on a task? It's a rather risky plan in general.

5)Conan doesn't feel like he would have that type of personality (snake nail hammer case). He would would have to be a ridiculously good actor...

Vermouth is and look how easily she fooled everyone. 

Excluding Conan he pretty much fooled everyone into believing that he's an idiot.

True, this isn't a particularly strong argument and you have a point that he is a lot more sly than he looks. The idea just feels wrong though.

----

I see this theory on par with ones like "maybe Agasa is the boss of the org." It's practically impossible to disprove, but explanations as to why the character has been pretending all this time and working against themselves are going to be contrived and artificial. It would be awful writing at the wallbanger level. I just don't see Gosho doing something this bad; it isn't his style.

[Blaze of Glory]

Gin doesn't mind a false positive or two, evidenced by the fact that he ordered Chianti to shoot Conan while they were targeting Kogoro in the Syndicate vs. the FBI arc. Conan behaved suspiciously, and that was enough to make him a target, despite being a kid. And again it is worthwhile to repeat that Eisuke's actions would be very hard to explain in a way that is consistent with him being a bad guy in the org.

Let me reiterate what I meant to say was so that he could find out who the little " sly fox as cunning as a detective" as Gin described who is nosing around their organization.

I am a bit confused... Are you saying Eisuke has made up the story about hating Akai so that he can protect him?

No, what I'm saying is that he blames Akai for trying to get his sister to flip to their side and wants to kill him. Also if I recall correctly as he told Conan he hates being restricted and the idea of being restricted because of the "witness protection program" offends him.

They do not know she is the daughter of Ethan Hondou, the CIA agent. They would probably kill her if they found that out. As I mentioned above, Eisuke used his real name and the org would definitely find out he was related to the infiltrator Ethan Hondou. I would imagine they would be extremely hesitant to take him in. Also he was raised by CIA agent friends of Ethan Hondou. That would make his participation in the org even less likely.

From what I've gathered here's how I see things that perhaps they're being used as toys

Eisuke is dedicated to the organization due to their goal of "raising the dead" believing it could bring back his parents

While Hidemi is the direct opposite and working strictly with the CIA to bring the downfall of the Organization

Gin did the same thing to Shiho Miyano and there's no doubt that he'll do it again.

I suppose it is possible that Eisuke could have managed to tap dance around his sister, but I find it difficult to believe. What if the boss or some other agent ordered them to work together on a task? It's a rather risky plan in general.

The boss of the BO probably ordered Gin to play the siblings as chumps and have them work but not be aware of what the other is doing. As Gin said moments before he killed Shiho "those are the organizations ways"

[Eve]

I agree... phail
Bourbon can be Okiya, but Okiya=Akai (ftw); maybe Akai managed to rejoin the BO w/o being found out

I have definitely mentioned this somewhere else on this board, but I can't recall where.

But, I think it's fairly obvious that Akai can Okiya or Okiya can be Bourbon, but the chances of Akai being Bourbon is highly unlikely. I don't think Gosho'd repeat that line of Akai sneaking into the Org. one more time, nor do I think the Black Org. would be that.. well, stupid, to let their greatest enemy walk into their turf and play the same cards again.

Akai being Okiya is safe assumption, from all hints given by Conan; like, when he heard from Eisuke that "something seemed to have happened in the FBI" and Conan smirks saying that everything's fine; he lets "Okiya" just stay at his house having known him for a day max...

Yes, he takes extra precaution to make sure that no traces of "Shinichi" are left behind at his house when he lets Okiya stay there, which seems awkward to me too, wherein the whole theory of Akai=Okiya crumbles in my eyes (what purpose would Conan have to hide Shinichi's identity from Akai, I'm not so certain... but maybe he's being cautious?)

The Okiya=Bourbon theory... well, this is obvious, because it's what Gosho wants us to believe! xD

But I honestly don't think that Akai could be Bourbon, after all that Akai has already pulled as Rye in the Organization, I'm thinking they're not going to ever let their guard down, again. We can tell this by their suspicions of Kir after she returns, too, so... That's why I can't believe our precious Shuu-kun (and I think everyone is convinced that he's alive) could be Bourbon.

But hey, who knows? It's Gosho, after all. He's the master .

It'd be hilarious if we all over think this and Okiya is just Okiya...

well, we'll get into a new arc in 5 more days (hopefully), guess we'll proceed on letting the master take the stage

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Let me reiterate what I meant to say was so that he could find out who the little " sly fox as cunning as a detective" as Gin described who is nosing around their organization.

You may have missed my point. Gin wouldn't get angry if Eisuke bumped someone off because he was suspicious and then later found out it was a mistake. Gin has already approved of Conan's assassination once before. Eisuke proving Conan is Shinichi is overkill, proving he worked with the FBI is enough. In fact, hanging around Shinichi would mean Eisuke is risking his identity unnecessarily. (If eisuke actually had something to hide...)

No, what I'm saying is that he blames Akai for trying to get his sister to flip to their side and wants to kill him. Also if I recall correctly as he told Conan he hates being restricted and the idea of being restricted because of the "witness protection program" offends him.

Hidemi Hondou is on the FBI's side and was always on the FBI's side. Akai never convinced her to switch ever, so that reason for hating Akai doesn't work.

From what I've gathered here's how I see things that perhaps they're being used as toys
Eisuke is dedicated to the organization due to their goal of "raising the dead" believing it could bring back his parents
While Hidemi is the direct opposite and working strictly with the CIA to bring the downfall of the Organization
Gin did the same thing to Shiho Miyano and there's no doubt that he'll do it again.

First off, the organization would never in their right minds knowingly allow a CIA agent to infiltrate them. They have taken great pains to eliminate all the traitors so far. (except Vermouth but she is a weird case...) Also the goal of the organization might not be raising the dead. It could be immortality or something else. There is a discussion thread on this already if you look for it. And Shiho Miyano only became a traitor because the org. killed her sister. She may have left for a different reason later, but based on what we know she was a relatively loyal agent up until Akemi died. Thus, I fail to see how the Gin and Sherry example is relevant here. Their situation is rather different.

The boss of the BO probably ordered Gin to play the siblings as chumps and have them work but not be aware of what the other is doing. As Gin said moments before he killed Shiho "those are the organizations ways"

I think you mean Akemi instead of Shiho.

I'm too lazy to go through the whole ~100 chapter arc and come up with reasons proving that Eisuke is not a bad guy. Here is one page to start with...

Spoiler:

If you really want me to go through the whole bloody thing and make a list of points as to why Eisuke is not in the Organization I will try, but only after you reread the arc yourself first...

[Kor]

a while ago I came up with a theory that I never believed for a second but thought it would be amusing if it happened. but when Gin started to talk of how Bourbon hates Akai it was obvious to me that it wouldn't happen...not that it had better chance before that anyway.

my stupid theory which I never believed for a second (because I think that Bourbon is scar Akai) is - Kogoro is Bourbon

After the FBI vs the B.O. case (episode 425) Gin checked up on Kogoro a few times (in order to see if Kogoro was innocent as Vermouth said) and thought that a great detective like him can be useful to the organization so he talked him into joining and get a lot of money. Kir said that Bourbon is good at gathering information, a detective like person. so it was amusing to think that maybe Gin (who also falls for the "sleeping Kogoro") was interested in him.

but obviously it was stupid. You don't need to have a mind like Gin's in order to see that Kogoro is an idiot, yet apparently every character in this show doesn't see that.

[Akonyl]

but obviously it was stupid. You don't need to have a mind like Gin's in order to see that Kogoro is an idiot, yet apparently every character in this show doesn't see that.

well to be fair, gin isn't exactly in a privileged position when it comes to observing kogoro. His knowledge of him probably only extends to the newspaper and TV saying that kogoro is an amazing detective, and since he hasn't seen any of kogoro's deductions himself he can't exactly make his own opinion.

[Blaze of Glory]

Eisuke proving Conan is Shinichi is overkill, proving he worked with the FBI is enough. In fact, hanging around Shinichi would mean Eisuke is risking his identity unnecessarily. (If eisuke actually had something to hide...)

Then explain why the police haven't managed to figure out Conan's true identity? So if he doesn't have anything to hide mind explaining why he hasn't accepted the comfortable protection of the FBI? Or why he hasn't accepted help from law enforcement like his sister?

First off, the organization would never in their right minds knowingly allow a CIA agent to infiltrate them. They have taken great pains to eliminate all the traitors so far. (except Vermouth but she is a weird case...)

Right ,right I guess that the reason why Ethan Hondou managed to infiltrate the org.

Also the goal of the organization might not be raising the dead. It could be immortality or something else.

You're generalizing

Until we figure  it out the answer is still up in the air.

She may have left for a different reason later, but based on what we know she was a relatively loyal agent up until Akemi died. Thus, I fail to see how the Gin and Sherry example is relevant here. Their situation is rather different.

I meant it's the same as the one billion-yen case the org is keeping Hidemi and Eisuke around for the sake of obtaining what they want. You know like.. how Gin promised Akemi that he'd let her and Shiho out of the organization if she got one billion yen. The only difference is that Hidemi is trying to bring them down while Eisuke is apart of it because he wants to try and help his sister get out of the org. like Akemi tried to do for her and Shiho or he wants to help them in accomplishing their goal of "raising the dead".

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Then explain why the police haven't managed to figure out Conan's true identity? So if he doesn't have anything to hide mind explaining why he hasn't accepted the comfortable protection of the FBI? Or why he hasn't accepted help from law enforcement like his sister?

Eisuke probably didn't want to accept the W.P.P. for similar reasons as Haibara. The witness protection program means changing your name, changing where you live and never returning, and never contacting the people from your past again. Read about it on Wikipedia. Basically Eisuke decided that he didn't want to run away and to retain the capacity to help. In the meanwhile, he went to the US which I think was a concession to his sister to stay safe for the time being. (Hidemi did ask Akai to give Eisuke a note asking him to join the WPP and stay safe). Eisuke seems too young now to join the CIA although he could be genuinely interested in joining. The police are not relevant to this discussion...

You're generalizing
Until we figure  it out the answer is still up in the air.

I never said immortality was the answer. We don't know the purpose of the org's research. I am "generalizing" for a good reason; to prematurely say it's making zombies is shortsighted. Go to this thread if you want to see discussion on the B.O.'s research.

Also if you want to keep discussing Eisuke like this you should move the discussion over to the "Is Eisuke is a B.O. member thread."

[AICHAN]

New theorie, Bourbon is someone with great deductions skills, maybe someone unexpectet like...

Spoiler:

hey,who's that girl? a detective? ???when did she appear?

[Obscure]

New theorie, Bourbon is someone with great deductions skills, maybe someone unexpectet like...

Spoiler:

haha . no . that's unlikely .  i liked her . --> spoiler of the ep. she appeared in

Spoiler:

too bad she took someone's life , if she didnt she would be such a great charcter

New theorie, Bourbon is someone with great deductions skills, maybe someone unexpectet like...

Spoiler:

hey,who's that girl? a detective? ???when did she appear?

ya she is a detective , more like was . mm.. she appeared at an episode where all high school detectives were stuck in a deserted island, they are too many heiji episodes , if i remmember which one , ill  be sure to tell you .

The location of the black photograph?? 


i thought she was arrested?

i thought so too? . did she appear at an episode again after the deserted island episode?

[Vylash]

after the most recent manga its pretty obvious that okiya is bourbon

[Eve]

New theorie, Bourbon is someone with great deductions skills, maybe someone unexpectet like...

Spoiler:

haha . no . that's unlikely .  i liked her . --> spoiler of the ep. she appeared in

Spoiler:

too bad she took someone's life , if she didnt she would be such a great charcter

New theorie, Bourbon is someone with great deductions skills, maybe someone unexpectet like...

Spoiler:

hey,who's that girl? a detective? ???when did she appear?

ya she is a detective , more like was . mm.. she appeared at an episode where all high school detectives were stuck in a deserted island, they are too many heiji episodes , if i remmember which one , ill  be sure to tell you .

The location of the black photograph?? 


i thought she was arrested?

i thought so too? . did she appear at an episode again after the deserted island episode?

I was wondering about her too... I mean she appeared in the keyhole which proven to have featured characters that will appear/mention in more than one case... yet not really, which reminds me of that new Osaka girl in Conan's class, why featuring such small role? Is Gosho planning something?

[Obscure]

if she was bourbon, i'll force myself into thinking that the boss is nothing but a pervert, just look how many BO womens we have already!

dont force yourself , here are all the female and male members and ex-members of BO:

Male:
Gin
Vodka
Korn
Numabuchi Kiichiro
bourbon
Tequila
calvados
pisco
Generic
Rye
Arrack

Female
Kir
Vermouth
Akemi
sherry
chianti

about tequila and arrack i don really know if there women or men , since i didnt read the chapters they were in.

you shouldn't force yourslef now, the number of women in BO is little  .