Okiya Subaru's True Identity

[Suutashi]

Okiya is probably NOT a third party/new character
Okiya is unlikely to be a third party because he knows about Conan's tracking glasses and the detective badges. (755.14) Conan has never used the tracking glasses in front of Okiya. A third party would not be privy to Conan's gadgets. The mechanism to operate Conan's glasses isn't obvious, so only someone who knows about their existence beforehand could recognize the glasses at Agasa's and figure out how to activate the tracking function.
Akai Shuuichi could have heard about the glasses in several ways. The first source is when James Black was kidnapped while he had Ayumi's detective badge. Conan used the badge to track down James Black. James was waiting to meet with Akai before he was kidnapped and drove away with Akai after he was rescued. Akai could have also heard about the tracking function from Jodie when Conan chased after Kir to prevent an assassination. Finally, Akai may also know about them from when Haibara borrowed the glasses to find Conan at the shipping yards in climax of the Vermouth arc. He was present at the time and would have seen Haibara wearing them even though she has never worn glasses when Akai had seen her previously.

You forgot one other thing: what his apparent reason was for watching Agasa's house at the time was. The curry he supposedly made too large of a batch of. This is a guy who lives alone and spends most of his time working on the thesis needed to get his doctorate. What business does he have making such a huge batch of curry even if it was an accident? This would have taken time and money he likely doesn't have. So is that the real reason he was watching the house all that time; so that all that curry didn't go to waste? Plus how did he even know that any of the house's occupants and visitors would even like curry? It would be funny to find out how much this guy knows of Conan's love of curry. All is right in the world (Conan's world that is) when Conan has curry.

Scar Akai is not the real Akai

Scar Akai is right handed, not left handed like Akai.
Scar Akai used his right hand to fire a handgun and to hand back a cellphone. It is unlikely scar Akai is simply using his right hand because he injured his left. In the "Teito Bank Heist" ("Shaking Heart" V65-5 679), he easily escaped the duct tape binding his hands, yet probably did not use the same method that Jodie used because there was still duct tape over his mouth. It doesn't make much sense for him to put the duct tape back his mouth again afterwards. Removing it with only one hand, especially if it's his off hand, would be difficult especially if robbers are watching you. (His eyes were covered so scar Akai couldn't be sure that no one was watching until the robbers pretended to be hostages which would give him only a few minutes to escape.) Switching handedness after head trauma does not appear to have been documented in scientific literature. That is not to say Gosho wouldn't consider using head trauma as an excuse to switch handedness, but it means that the concept lacks a precedent.

It is not at all unusual for someone who is left-handed to be brought up to be right-handed. A person who is left-handed is often taught to write right-handed and do most any other task right-handed. There are a number of reasons why that is the case but I'm not getting into that. Also you might want to look into the 'Clock Tower Heist' in the Magic Kaito manga and the 'Iron Tanuki Case' in Detective Conan. Kid ends up using his left hand to fire his card gun during the Clock tower heist and Jirokichi swaps dominate hand use during the Iron Tanuki Case.

[Akonyl]

You forgot one other thing: what his apparent reason was for watching Agasa's house at the time was. The curry he supposedly made too large of a batch of. This is a guy who lives alone and spends most of his time working on the thesis needed to get his doctorate. What business does he have making such a huge batch of curry even if it was an accident? This would have taken time and money he likely doesn't have. So is that the real reason he was watching the house all that time; so that all that curry didn't go to waste? Plus how did he even know that any of the house's occupants and visitors would even like curry? It would be funny to find out how much this guy knows of Conan's love of curry. All is right in the world (Conan's world that is) when Conan has curry.

Is there anyone in the conan world that doesn't like curry? I think whenever it's brought up, people are always like "wooo curry!" or at the very least, they eat it.

And maybe he intended to make too much in the first place, he just doesn't wanna admit that he wants to spend time with em all.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

You forgot one other thing: what his apparent reason was for watching Agasa's house at the time was.

Okiya is watching Agasa's house to protect Ai. Remember Bourbon is lurking out there and maybe Vermouth as well. (Akai doesn't know about Conan's deal with her.) The curry thing was probably an excuse as you pointed out.

It is not at all unusual for someone who is left-handed to be brought up to be right-handed. A person who is left-handed is often taught to write right-handed and do most any other task right-handed.

It doesn't matter, as Akai is obviously left handed and chooses to do things south paw style. Ditto with Okiya. I made a list of which hand Akai used in the manga every time he did something. In the NY case, Akai had his handgun set to left hand draw, so he seems to handle handguns left handed.

There are a number of reasons why that is the case but I'm not getting into that. Also you might want to look into the 'Clock Tower Heist' in the Magic Kaito manga and the 'Iron Tanuki Case' in Detective Conan. Kid ends up using his left hand to fire his card gun during the Clock tower heist and Jirokichi swaps dominate hand use during the Iron Tanuki Case.

The Jirokichi thing was done on purpose to fool Conan, Kogoro, and the police into thinking he was Kaito Kid part of the time in order to buy the real Kid time to rescue Lupin, so that situation doesn't count. Kaito Kid didn't have much choice of hand in the Clocktower heist since he was standing on a clock hand flat against the clock face and couldn't easily turn around without falling off/going off balance. That said, Kid can probably use both hands well because he is a magician and needs to be skilled with both hands to perform tricks and also mimic left handed individuals.
Everyone around scar Akai had their eyes duct taped. Why risk shooting with your off-hand through a crowd of people - difficult shot conditions- who can't see you anyway?

[Dus]

You forgot one other thing: what his apparent reason was for watching Agasa's house at the time was. The curry he supposedly made too large of a batch of. This is a guy who lives alone and spends most of his time working on the thesis needed to get his doctorate. What business does he have making such a huge batch of curry even if it was an accident? This would have taken time and money he likely doesn't have. So is that the real reason he was watching the house all that time; so that all that curry didn't go to waste? Plus how did he even know that any of the house's occupants and visitors would even like curry? It would be funny to find out how much this guy knows of Conan's love of curry. All is right in the world (Conan's world that is) when Conan has curry.

Is there anyone in the conan world that doesn't like curry? I think whenever it's brought up, people are always like "wooo curry!" or at the very least, they eat it.

And maybe he intended to make too much in the first place, he just doesn't wanna admit that he wants to spend time with em all.

I think it's safe to assume that every Japanese child likes curry. Just like you wouldn't expect an American child to go "WTF, I HATE pizza "
To be honest, i believe his story about havind made curry. He may have done that either to establish his persona as the friendly next-door-PhD-candidate.

And while it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Akai would probably be able to shoot with his right hand: There was absolutely no need for him to do so in that situation.




I'm afraid I'll have to double-post because I do want Chekhov to read this:

Someone posted something in the German forum that made me doubt the Shuichi=Subaru theory.

Inner voices.
When we hear/read someone's thoughts in DC then they're always in their own voice. Conan thinks with Shinichi's voice (not sure about Ai) and Kid and Vermouth always think with their own voice.
When Vermouth was disguised as Araide we never heard her think and neither did we ever hear Kid think when we didn't know his disguise yet (the thought bubbles have given his identity away, in fact).

We have heard Subaru's thoughts at least twice so far. I'm not sure about the Anime and I haven't checked the manga personally either, but I've always wondered why Shuichi was able to disguise his voice anyway. Well, he can't, apparently. (Neither can Bourbon)

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned it here, but the fact that Subaru's face seemed familiar to Ran works AGAINST this theory as well. Ran has only seen him 2 or 3 times, his disguise must be crap if she saw through the disguise. So why would Shuichi be so stupid and venture into a place where several BO members are about, who all are familiar with his face? He may not have known that beforehand and he certainly made an effort not to be seen by them, but he really shouldn't be out and about if his disguise is crap.

Why did Ran recognize his face then? Where did he see him?
In the New York case (Again I can't double-check this at the moment) Ran saw Shuichi who was there in a car. He got off the car on the right. So unless it's a Japanese model, he must have had a driver. Possibly Subaru.

Speaking of drivers: Subaru could also have picked up Shuichi. And he arrived with lights flashing and sirens wailing (you can get that at the black market). That's why the police arrived at the perfect time and even if Gin saw him there, it wouldn't be strange of a cop to check the remains of a burned car.

Anyway, here's the link to her full theory (German): http://detektivconan-forum.com/index.php?page=Thread&postID=52763#post52763

P.S.: Do you have any relatives in Germany, Chekh?

[Kor]

I'm afraid I'll have to double-post because I do want Chekhov to read this:

Someone posted something in the German forum that made me doubt the Shuichi=Subaru theory.

Inner voices.
When we hear/read someone's thoughts in DC then they're always in their own voice. Conan thinks with Shinichi's voice (not sure about Ai) and Kid and Vermouth always think with their own voice.
When Vermouth was disguised as Araide we never heard her think and neither did we ever hear Kid think when we didn't know his disguise yet (the thought bubbles have given his identity away, in fact).

We have heard Subaru's thoughts at least twice so far. I'm not sure about the Anime and I haven't checked the manga personally either, but I've always wondered why Shuichi was able to disguise his voice anyway. Well, he can't, apparently. (Neither can Bourbon)

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned it here, but the fact that Subaru's face seemed familiar to Ran works AGAINST this theory as well. Ran has only seen him 2 or 3 times, his disguise must be crap if she saw through the disguise. So why would Shuichi be so stupid and venture into a place where several BO members are about, who all are familiar with his face? He may not have known that beforehand and he certainly made an effort not to be seen by them, but he really shouldn't be out and about if his disguise is crap.

Why did Ran recognize his face then? Where did he see him?
In the New York case (Again I can't double-check this at the moment) Ran saw Shuichi who was there in a car. He got off the car on the right. So unless it's a Japanese model, he must have had a driver. Possibly Subaru.

Speaking of drivers: Subaru could also have picked up Shuichi. And he arrived with lights flashing and sirens wailing (you can get that at the black market). That's why the police arrived at the perfect time and even if Gin saw him there, it wouldn't be strange of a cop to check the remains of a burned car.

Anyway, here's the link to her full theory (German): http://detektivconan-forum.com/index.php?page=Thread&postID=52763#post52763

P.S.: Do you have any relatives in Germany, Chekh?

The thinking with your real voice part:
For all I care, the manga is what we should rely on. There are no voices in the manga, so I don't see this as much of an evidance. Also, let's assume that Gosho told the anime team what his plans are with Okiya, why then would they give Okiya an Akai's thinking voice? That would be an obvious give-away. I doubt Gosho has done something like that because everyone can leak information now days, and I don't think the author will tell about potential twists like that.

[Dus]

Hearing some-one think has been an obvious give-away in the past (for Kid). So if Gosho wanted to avoid that the way to do it would be not to show Subaru's thoughts at all.
The whole point isn't about the anime, but that if Shuichi is Subaru, then we have seen the thoughts of someone that is in disguise. In the past, this has only happened if we already knew they were in disguise.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Couldn't reply sooner.  :-\

Inner voices.
When we hear/read someone's thoughts in DC then they're always in their own voice. Conan thinks with Shinichi's voice (not sure about Ai) and Kid and Vermouth always think with their own voice.
When Vermouth was disguised as Araide we never heard her think and neither did we ever hear Kid think when we didn't know his disguise yet (the thought bubbles have given his identity away, in fact).

This isn't really a proof because it's a stylistic difference. If you think about it, it doesn't really mean anything that one character got to "think aloud" and another character didn't. If Araide/Vermouth had an "open thought", it would be done using Araide's speech style so as not to ruin the mystery.
Gosho will allow us to hear disguised character’s voices so long as what they are thinking can be considered in character for their disguise. (And thus wouldn't throw the mystery) A perfect example of this is Kudo Yuusaku in the kidnapped Conan case. (V6-1) We heard him “think aloud” about noticing gum being in the keyhole because it is in character for both his disguise, Night Baron Black Org member, and his actual self. This is the first example I could dig up, and I haven’t crosschecked all the appearances of Kid or Vermouth to see if we never hear their thoughts while in disguise as stated by the OP.

We have heard Subaru's thoughts at least twice so far. I'm not sure about the Anime and I haven't checked the manga personally either, but I've always wondered why Shuichi was able to disguise his voice anyway. Well, he can't, apparently. (Neither can Bourbon)

Because talking out-loud to himself would be awkward? Shuuichi must be able to alter his voice a little, enough to not tip Jodie and Ran off.

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned it here, but the fact that Subaru's face seemed familiar to Ran works AGAINST this theory as well. Ran has only seen him 2 or 3 times, his disguise must be crap if she saw through the disguise. So why would Shuichi be so stupid and venture into a place where several BO members are about, who all are familiar with his face? He may not have known that beforehand and he certainly made an effort not to be seen by them, but he really shouldn't be out and about if his disguise is crap.

It works for the theory because Akai as Subaru is not wearing a mask. Ran demonstrated that with a hard contact kick. Subaru's disguise is simple, but enough to give a different impression. Ran didn't actually recognize who he was (despite her feelings) and neither did Jodie, his FBI investigator ex-girlfriend. That's proof the disguise works well enough for casual interaction. Subaru goes to places with BO because he is worried about Jodie being stalked by someone from the BO and what the Org.'s intentions are.

P.S.: Do you have any relatives in Germany, Chekh?

I think I have some distant ones, but I don't know them.

[KainTheVampire]

I still don't believe in this theory! >__<
Akai is too cool to be Bourbon!

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I still don't believe in this theory! >__<
Akai is too cool to be Bourbon!

That would be Akai = Okiya, not Bourbon. Bourbon is that guy running around with the burn and the hat.
Don't worry, that little thread of irrationality you cling to will one day snap and you too will be assimilated into the masses of Okiya is Akai believers.

[Dus]

Couldn't reply sooner. 

Idem

This isn't really a proof because it's a stylistic difference. If you think about it, it doesn't really mean anything that one character got to "think aloud" and another character didn't. If Araide/Vermouth had an "open thought", it would be done using Araide's speech style so as not to ruin the mystery.
Gosho will allow us to hear disguised character’s voices so long as what they are thinking can be considered in character for their disguise. (And thus wouldn't throw the mystery) A perfect example of this is Kudo Yuusaku in the kidnapped Conan case. (V6-1) We heard him “think aloudâ€

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

You may already know that by now, but not only were Araide's thoughts heard when he had returned to the school, but his thoughts were actually heard when Vermouth was disguised as him: In Vermouth's voice. This was probably to make the readers think that Jodie is Vermouth because she was also present.

I probably should have phrased it like "characters can have their thoughts aloud so long as it doesn't ruin the mystery, either by using their natural voices and making it ambiguous who is the thinker, or by using their disguised voice provided the thought doesn't give away the identity of who is speaking and keeps in character with the disguise."

Still, the thing about the Night Baron is interesting. You wouldn't happen to remember if he had Yusaku's voice in the anime?

This argument technically doesn't work because it relies on the anime, but for what it was worth it was the freaky night baron voice.

I see a clear logical fallacy here. Your argument is that Shuichi must be able to alter his voice because Subaru is Shuichi and Subaru's voice is different from Shuichi's. I, on the other hand, say that we have no evidence whatsoever that Shuichi is capable of doing that. If he were a master of disguise, like Kid, Vermouth, or Yukiko, then one would assume that the FBI would have used that to their advantage or would at least be aware of it. In fact, the only people in DC who are able to alter their voices without any gadgets are the aforementioned three people. All of them were in close contact with Toichi Kuroba.

And I say it doesn't take an acting career to disguise one's voice a little. Assuming Okiya is Akai, Akai doesn't have to mimic a voice, he just has to make up a voice that is different than his own which is a much easier endeavor. (Before anyone brings up how different they sound from one another in the anime, the anime voices hare not canon) Also, if we consider his connections to one Kinoshita Fusae who may have had one Magician father Kinoshita Yoshiro, Akai may have learned something from her. It's a problem that we don't have evidence that Shuuichi has/had training in that area, but he has the motive to practice a lot and after stalking Vermouth for so long with Jodie, I would imagine he has looked into how Vermouth manages to change her voice like that.

She didn't really recognize Shuichi when she met him in Japan either, did she? And if a girl who only met you twice not knowing where  to place your face is enough for you to say your disguise works, then you're being suicidal.

First time (Sato's engagement) no because Ran had the memory blocked out, second time (phone booth) yes because she recalled the memory. Also, Ran has consistently been characterized as somehow knowing things mysteriously. Examples include the Shiragami case (Makoto != Shinichi), the magicians meeting case (Conan outside in snow and she feels she must go and check), and the very first case (Shinichi not coming back). I can probably come up with a bunch of other examples about Ran's magic intuituion.

Who did you think wrote the note on the beer mat? Bourbon or Subaru?

I honestly don't know. My hunch is that it was Okiya who had made the observation she was being stalked and wanted her to clear out. The BO arriving and the bomb cases were just coincidence.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the immaculate timing of the police, who made it possible to give Shuichi that small window of opportunity when the switch must have occured.

An obvious setup. I haven't decided if the police were in on it too (I don't like the idea of that many people being involved) or just the person in the accident, but there was an accomplice involved. My feeling is that it would be Kinoshita and Billy who were responsible for that one rather than Conan and Agasa or someone else.

I always thought Conan quoting Holmes was the cue for Subaru to recognize him. But it could also have been staged so that Conan would have a "reason" to let him stay in the house.

I think of it as the other way around, it was Akai's tipoff for Conan to recognize him.

[Kor]

First time (Sato's engagement) no because Ran had the memory blocked out, second time (phone booth) yes because she recalled the memory. Also, Ran has consistently been characterized as somehow knowing things mysteriously. Examples include the Shiragami case (Makoto != Shinichi), the magicians meeting case (Conan outside in snow and she feels she must go and check), and the very first case (Shinichi not coming back). I can probably come up with a bunch of other examples about Ran's magic intuituion.

I also intended to point it out. Ran has the powers of a main character (in her case, as you said, magic intuituion). Does episode 345 come as another good example for that?

[Dus]

I probably should have phrased it like "characters can have their thoughts aloud so long as it doesn't ruin the mystery, either by using their natural voices and making it ambiguous who is the thinker, or by using their disguised voice provided the thought doesn't give away the identity of who is speaking and keeps in character with the disguise."

Fair enough, but it's much more usual to hear the original voice. Even if this can't be heard in the manga, usually the thought bubble would be accompanied by a picture of the person in disguise. This rule is often broken with Conan, but I think it's mostly true for other characters - apart from the Night Baron, apparently.

Still, the thing about the Night Baron is interesting. You wouldn't happen to remember if he had Yusaku's voice in the anime?

This argument technically doesn't work because it relies on the anime, but for what it was worth it was the freaky night baron voice.

Interesting, but this was also the first appearance of a character in disguise and ergo before the rule was established (although it was handled that way in MK as well, iirc).

And I say it doesn't take an acting career to disguise one's voice a little. Assuming Okiya is Akai, Akai doesn't have to mimic a voice, he just has to make up a voice that is different than his own which is a much easier endeavor. (Before anyone brings up how different they sound from one another in the anime, the anime voices hare not canon) Also, if we consider his connections to one Kinoshita Fusae who may have had one Magician father Kinoshita Yoshiro, Akai may have learned something from her. It's a problem that we don't have evidence that Shuuichi has/had training in that area, but he has the motive to practice a lot and after stalking Vermouth for so long with Jodie, I would imagine he has looked into how Vermouth manages to change her voice like that.

True, we don't really know how different they sound. But I think it would be hard to disguise his voice so much that Jodie wouldn't recognize it. Or he really did want her to recognize him.

First time (Sato's engagement) no because Ran had the memory blocked out, second time (phone booth) yes because she recalled the memory. Also, Ran has consistently been characterized as somehow knowing things mysteriously. Examples include the Shiragami case (Makoto != Shinichi), the magicians meeting case (Conan outside in snow and she feels she must go and check), and the very first case (Shinichi not coming back). I can probably come up with a bunch of other examples about Ran's magic intuituion.

She probably did recognize him at the phone booth, I concur. I would still say that that wouldn't be enough for her to recognize him in disguise, but you are right about her having magical intuition, so it would still be justified.

I honestly don't know. My hunch is that it was Okiya who had made the observation she was being stalked and wanted her to clear out. The BO arriving and the bomb cases were just coincidence.

I used to be convinced of that as well, but it could have been a part of Bourbon's ploy to let them think Shuichi was still alive.

An obvious setup. I haven't decided if the police were in on it too (I don't like the idea of that many people being involved) or just the person in the accident, but there was an accomplice involved. My feeling is that it would be Kinoshita and Billy who were responsible for that one rather than Conan and Agasa or someone else.

I totally forgot about Kinoshita, it is of course just as possible that it was one of these two.

I think of it as the other way around, it was Akai's tipoff for Conan to recognize him.

Possible but I just assumed that Conan would recognize his disguise.
It coincides nicely with the theory, that Yukiko was supposed to make him a proper mask and Okiya is just a persona he made up on the spot.

[KainTheVampire]

[quote="Chekhov MacGuffin"]
[quote="KainTheVampire"]
I still don't believe in this theory! >____<

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

She probably did recognize him at the phone booth, I concur.

She told Conan he was the FBI officer she saw back in the NY case. Her recognition was a given.

I used to be convinced of that as well, but it could have been a part of Bourbon's ploy to let them think Shuichi was still alive.

Which is why I am not sure, because I can't rule this explanation out either. Of course there is the question of what scar Akai could be "warning" her about. If scar Akai left the message he wouldn't know about Gin and friends or the bomb case either (or Okiya). Maybe he's raising a false alarm? I don't think Bourbon is trying to trick them into thinking that Shuuichi is alive because he already assumes Shuuichi is alive. I think he is trying to ferret out where Shuuichi is.

It coincides nicely with the theory, that Yukiko was supposed to make him a proper mask and Okiya is just a persona he made up on the spot.

No masks were involved as Ran's kick revealed. The sound effect is for "hard contact" which would have destroyed any mask. It's his own face covered up with poofier hair and incorrectly prescribed glasses.