Best DC Couple?

[Kodax]

Takagi + Satou!

[Sol Falling]

To get us on the same page, yes I believe Gosho is writing Ran to be the perfect unselfish girl(within realistic human bounds) and that's MY problem, Gosho needs to make Ran as selfish you claim she is, if he does that then "Ran isn't needed" discussions would grow small and maybe the Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her. Would you imagine the discussion generated if an episode aired where Ran actually said "YES" to going out with another guy just to spite Shinichi than the typical "Ran gets a letter/date but she doesn't like the guy or turns out to be a girl" scenario.

lol at the 'Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her'.

I gotta say, if Ran is a 'useless' character then I wonder if Haibara actually contributes anything to non-plot related cases either.  LOL at somebody saying the Shounen Tantei gave Haibara more legitimacy than Ran.  Seriously, lol.

You look at it this way.  Ran rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring Shinichi.  But hey, that's fine.  Haibara rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring the Black Org either.  For the rest of the series--that is, the vast majority of it--Ran and Haibara, just like the rest of the huge cast of characters, essentially play minor side roles beside Conan in the unveiling of the weekly mystery.  You gotta have serious selective vision/memory to think Ran does less in those side roles than Haibara does, though (other way round by far), and you gotta have even narrower tunnel vision if you think the Shinichi element brings any less to DC's narrative table than the Black Org does.

Anyway, I don't really want to debate on this topic, I was just searching for an entry point to this thread.  Ran's usefulness as a character is assumed, any more time spent debating it is a waste (lol and for that matter so is the canonical mutuality/inevitability of ShinRan, those people going "omg Shinichi's feelings could change!!!  It's just a crush" are hilarious).  Why don't you guys move back into the retarded shipping wars over "ConanAi is better writing!!!" so I really have something to talk about.

[Xela]

I may be wrong but it seems to me you just don't plain like Ran . So you have a problem when people try to portray her as a perfect girl even after you claimed yourself that's how Gosho writes her. .

*massive facepalm*
I said he "tries to portray her as perfect". Ran has faults too, although everyone in Conanverse isn´t able to notice or even finds them awesome- as well many people in the fandom. Talk about a Mary Sue.
Ran is not perfect but everyone seems to see her as perfect and declares her to be the "poor, angelic victim".
No miracle that she is easily the character in DC I dislike the most.

To get us on the same page, yes I believe Gosho is writing Ran to be the perfect unselfish girl(within realistic human bounds) and that's MY problem, Gosho needs to make Ran as selfish you claim she is, if he does that then "Ran isn't needed" discussions would grow small and maybe the Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her. Would you imagine the discussion generated if an episode aired where Ran actually said "YES" to going out with another guy just to spite Shinichi than the typical "Ran gets a letter/date but she doesn't like the guy or turns out to be a girl" scenario.

I never questioned that Ran is important to the story. I don´t see why to bring this up in a discussion about the best couple.
Conan+Haibara fanbase respecting her? She´s a manga character. Besides, is just thinking AiCon would be the better relationship "disrespecting" her?
The bolded example: When she would go out with another guy just to spite Shinichi? Is there a reason why it would be wrong to disrespect her?
As I said in an earlier post, she could have easily found out by now that Shinichi is not just having fun and has to deal with a situation that´s even trickier than her´s. To pull something mentioned above with that knowledge just to make him jealous, would not give her character depth or development- it would turn her into an Mary Sue with more overlooked faults, since there would surely be someone who finds that great.

[kkslider5552000]

To get us on the same page, yes I believe Gosho is writing Ran to be the perfect unselfish girl(within realistic human bounds) and that's MY problem, Gosho needs to make Ran as selfish you claim she is, if he does that then "Ran isn't needed" discussions would grow small and maybe the Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her. Would you imagine the discussion generated if an episode aired where Ran actually said "YES" to going out with another guy just to spite Shinichi than the typical "Ran gets a letter/date but she doesn't like the guy or turns out to be a girl" scenario.

lol at the 'Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her'.

I gotta say, if Ran is a 'useless' character then I wonder if Haibara actually contributes anything to non-plot related cases either.  LOL at somebody saying the Shounen Tantei gave Haibara more legitimacy than Ran.  Seriously, lol.

You look at it this way.  Ran rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring Shinichi.  But hey, that's fine.  Haibara rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring the Black Org either.  For the rest of the series--that is, the vast majority of it--Ran and Haibara, just like the rest of the huge cast of characters, essentially play minor side roles beside Conan in the unveiling of the weekly mystery.  You gotta have serious selective vision/memory to think Ran does less in those side roles than Haibara does, though (other way round by far), and you gotta have even narrower tunnel vision if you think the Shinichi element brings any less to DC's narrative table than the Black Org does.

Anyway, I don't really want to debate on this topic, I was just searching for an entry point to this thread.  Ran's usefulness as a character is assumed, any more time spent debating it is a waste (lol and for that matter so is the canonical mutuality/inevitability of ShinRan, those people going "omg Shinichi's feelings could change!!!  It's just a crush" are hilarious).  Why don't you guys move back into the retarded shipping wars over "ConanAi is better writing!!!" so I really have something to talk about.

[TheBlind]

To get us on the same page, yes I believe Gosho is writing Ran to be the perfect unselfish girl(within realistic human bounds) and that's MY problem, Gosho needs to make Ran as selfish you claim she is, if he does that then "Ran isn't needed" discussions would grow small and maybe the Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her. Would you imagine the discussion generated if an episode aired where Ran actually said "YES" to going out with another guy just to spite Shinichi than the typical "Ran gets a letter/date but she doesn't like the guy or turns out to be a girl" scenario.

lol at the 'Conan+Haibara fanbase would start respecting her'.

I gotta say, if Ran is a 'useless' character then I wonder if Haibara actually contributes anything to non-plot related cases either.  LOL at somebody saying the Shounen Tantei gave Haibara more legitimacy than Ran.  Seriously, lol.

You look at it this way.  Ran rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring Shinichi.  But hey, that's fine.  Haibara rarely gets a critical focus except in cases featuring the Black Org either.  For the rest of the series--that is, the vast majority of it--Ran and Haibara, just like the rest of the huge cast of characters, essentially play minor side roles beside Conan in the unveiling of the weekly mystery.  You gotta have serious selective vision/memory to think Ran does less in those side roles than Haibara does, though (other way round by far), and you gotta have even narrower tunnel vision if you think the Shinichi element brings any less to DC's narrative table than the Black Org does.

Anyway, I don't really want to debate on this topic, I was just searching for an entry point to this thread.  Ran's usefulness as a character is assumed, any more time spent debating it is a waste (lol and for that matter so is the canonical mutuality/inevitability of ShinRan, those people going "omg Shinichi's feelings could change!!!  It's just a crush" are hilarious).  Why don't you guys move back into the retarded shipping wars over "ConanAi is better writing!!!" so I really have something to talk about.

LOL at you arriving late to the party. The war between Haibara fans and Ran Fans ended 2 pages back,you missed it, and I was not part of it. Now it seems like you decided to cut out a small portion of my reply in an attempt start it up again(to make yourself look cool?) and it's not going to work. Why? because I like Ran*GASP*, yes I rather see Conan+Haibara but I like Ran and like I said in my other 3 reaaallllly long post (that you decided to ignore in order to post this flame bait) I like Ran as a character and want her in my DC. Plus, from my point of view much of her hate comes from her portrayal as a "perfect" character as Xela is showing .

[TheBlind]

*massive facepalm*
I said he "tries to portray her as perfect". Ran has faults too, although everyone in Conanverse isn´t able to notice or even finds them awesome- as well many people in the fandom. Talk about a Mary Sue.
Ran is not perfect but everyone seems to see her as perfect and declares her to be the "poor, angelic victim".
No miracle that she is easily the character in DC I dislike the most.

..So you are saying even though Gosho is writing a Manga character to be a Mary Sue she isn't because...she's alive?
If she's written as a Mary Sue, then she is one, like you said it's a fictional story, they aren't real. Also, the one constant about Mary Sue characters is that they bring hate upon themselves for being "perfect" (which you are showing right now), which brings us to an infinite loop. You hate her because she's "perfect"(again you words) so you have to find as many flaws as you can to claim she's not perfect which you wouldn't be doing if she wasn't seen as perfect. Nasty loop .

I never questioned that Ran is important to the story.I don´t see why to bring this up in a discussion about the best couple.

I never claimed you stated she wasn't important to the story.

Conan+Haibara fanbase respecting her? She´s a manga character. Besides, is just thinking AiCon would be the better relationship "disrespecting" her?

I find it funny that you mock the respect of a manga character while blatantly parade you hate for one......

The bolded example: When she would go out with another guy just to spite Shinichi? Is there a reason why it would be wrong to disrespect her?
As I said in an earlier post, she could have easily found out by now that Shinichi is not just having fun and has to deal with a situation that´s even trickier than her´s. To pull something mentioned above with that knowledge just to make him jealous, would not give her character depth or development- it would turn her into an Mary Sue with more overlooked faults, since there would surely be someone who finds that great.

First you can hate Ran all you want, it's your opinion. I would be the first on this board support you in your defense of your opinion (as long as it wasn't flame bait or heavily bias and no, I'm not saying this is either of those) if people ganged up on you. Second,I think you are misunderstanding what a Mary Sue is. It's a character that could not do wrong because no matter what situation they are in they escape it perfectly. In DC standards that means "Ran always looking out for others before herself".
Quick Examples: Taking off a shirt her mother gave her because Kazuha had a problem with it, Stating that she would never ask Sonoko for money EVER, jumping onto moving cars without a moments hesitation to save a friend & coming out of it with barely any damage, and running into a forest where many have died but she walks out of it with bandages because her Shinichi was there.

Situations like that make a Mary Sue, which is why people treat her like one and which is why you have a problem with it. I like this Ran but I wouldn't mind her to act a bit more selfish which is what my example was trying to get at. Her going out with someone else to spite Shinichi cannot be Mary Sued because it would show  a selfish side of her and bring damage to the Shi+Ran relationship..so she doesn't escape out of it perfectly. But this can't happen without destroy Ran's character continuty..unless they make her hit her head and act like her opposite for an episode .

...Man defending Ran is Nyarl's job, why am I doing it?
Also so it doesn't get lost in all this discussion, I like Ran a lot as a character & I like Conan+Ai(I'm in a small group )

[Girl19]

Who said Ran is perfect? No one, not even manga characters, can really be perfect.


Edit:

Spoiler:

Back to Genta's Topic..

Actually, I believe that EACH character (heck even Genta) bring something more and different to the story.

Genta is there because Gosho wanted a 6 year old love triangle and because Genta makes every other character seem that much more 3 dimensional by comparison.

And there you go. As I said, every single character has its own role. xD

[TheBlind]

Who said Ran is perfect? No one, not even manga characters, can really be perfect.


Edit:

Spoiler:

Back to Genta's Topic..

Actually, I believe that EACH character (heck even Genta) bring something more and different to the story.

Genta is there because Gosho wanted a 6 year old love triangle and because Genta makes every other character seem that much more 3 dimensional by comparison.

And there you go. As I said, every single character has its own role. xD

Xela is stating that Gosho tries to write her as a perfect character. I say Ran is more like a Marie Sue(character that always has it going for her).

And you are wrong, manga characters can be perfect because they are fictional.

[kirite]

Who said Ran is perfect? No one, not even manga characters, can really be perfect.


Edit:

Spoiler:

Back to Genta's Topic..

Actually, I believe that EACH character (heck even Genta) bring something more and different to the story.

Genta is there because Gosho wanted a 6 year old love triangle and because Genta makes every other character seem that much more 3 dimensional by comparison.

And there you go. As I said, every single character has its own role. xD

Xela is stating that Gosho tries to write her as a perfect character. I say Ran is more like a Marie Sue(character that always has it going for her).

And you are wrong, manga characters can be perfect because they are fictional.

With that said, since they're "characters" they're bound to be interpreted differently.  Even just stating something that happened (Kogoro drinks beer) will result in different interpretations of the character's actions depending on how you read the character in the first place.

*shrug*  So really it's not too surprising to see some people thinking Ran as Marie Sue and some people seeing her as a character with flaws.  It's like how I see Shinichi as a Gary Stu minus the fact that nothing ever goes right for him xD (poor Shinichi).

LOL now that I think about it I think Ran still needs a legion of fanboys in canon to complete her Marie Sue-ness xD.  So far everyone who "liked" her either gave her up immediately, was a killer, was a noob, didn't even like her in the first place and only seemed like it because we're watching the series though Conan, etc... 

and omg Blind and Nyarl must temporary switched bodies .

[Girl19]

And you are wrong, manga characters can be perfect because they are fictional.

I don't think so. Those manga characters are created by humans who aren't perfect; which means, a mangaka can try to make his character perfect at first, but he's bound to make a mistake some time and thus, the character is not perfect anymore. Just like what happened with Ran, she seemed perfect at the beginning, but the story kept dragging and dragging, and now she has many flaws in my opinion.

[Xela]

You hate her because she's "perfect"(again you words) so you have to find as many flaws as you can to claim she's not perfect which you wouldn't be doing if she wasn't seen as perfect. Nasty loop .

Thank you for completely twisting around what I have said.
I don´t "hate" her because she is "perfect". Ran is a character with flaws as anyone else, but when it comes to character interpretation, I found these to be completely overlooked. I´m perfectly fine with the character itself, but everyone seems to have an image of her which is pretty untouchable and heavily influences the interpretation of any other characters she is compared with.

I find it funny that you mock the respect of a manga character while blatantly parade you hate for one...

Oh, come on. Did I say something like "Ran iz soo stupidXP"? The reason why she is not one of my favourite characters lies within the DC-fandom itself. I can´t remember bashing her because of her crying or being often the damsel in mistress, for example, I pointed out in an earlier post that she actually does act selfish and that I cannot grasp the reason behind another action of hers.
As I said: She is still a manga character. The author just writes her like that.

It's a character that could not do wrong because no matter what situation they are in they escape it perfectly. In DC standards that means "Ran always looking out for others before herself".
Quick Examples: Taking off a shirt her mother gave her because Kazuha had a problem with it, Stating that she would never ask Sonoko for money EVER, jumping onto moving cars without a moments hesitation to save a friend & coming out of it with barely any damage, and running into a forest where many have died but she walks out of it with bandages because her Shinichi was there.

Thank you, that´s exactly why I think she´s a Mary Sue.
Another one of the characteristics would be "Everyone likes/loves her", but I guess this could count as an outcome of the things you mentioned. Again, the author. This is why I said "Gosho tries to portray her as perfect".

Situations like that make a Mary Sue, which is why people treat her like one and which is why you have a problem with it. I like this Ran but I wouldn't mind her to act a bit more selfish which is what my example was trying to get at. Her going out with someone else to spite Shinichi cannot be Mary Sued because it would show  a selfish side of her and bring damage to the Shi+Ran relationship..so she doesn't escape out of it perfectly.

My problem is that the majority would still find that to be awesome. Any other character would be labeled as cruel while Ran almost seem to have "the right" to do it. This is what I can´t understand.

[TheBlind]

Thank you for completely twisting around what I have said.
I don´t "hate" her because she is "perfect". Ran is a character with flaws as anyone else, but when it comes to character interpretation, I found these to be completely overlooked. I´m perfectly fine with the character itself, but everyone seems to have an image of her which is pretty untouchable and heavily influences the interpretation of any other characters she is compared with.

Several times you have posted that Gosho tries to write her as perfect and a portion of the fanbase thinks she is perfect, so I don't think I twisted anything. Even in this reply you claim how you have a dislike to those that have an untouchable image of her..

Oh, come on. Did I say something like "Ran iz soo stupidXP"? The reason why she is not one of my favourite characters lies within the DC-fandom itself. I can´t remember bashing her because of her crying or being often the damsel in mistress, for example, I pointed out in an earlier post that she actually does act selfish and that I cannot grasp the reason behind another action of hers.
As I said: She is still a manga character. The author just writes her like that.

I think you missed my point with this one. No matter what the reason, you dislike Ran as you have written in this thread (and THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THAT) but you can't really mock someone for respecting a character(manga/novels/tv/etc) and then with a straight face say you dislike a character. Same goes if you like a character from DC, can't like Shinichi and turn around and say "you adore Genta? He' s a manga character."
Disclaimer: I do NOT adore Genta...covering myself here.

Thank you, that´s exactly why I think she´s a Mary Sue.
Another one of the characteristics would be "Everyone likes/loves her", but I guess this could count as an outcome of the things you mentioned. Again, the author. This is why I said "Gosho tries to portray her as perfect".

At least we are on the same page on this one. I also agree on the Gosho part and like I said before he should stop doing that and I already gave my reasons why.

My problem is that the majority would still find that to be awesome. Any other character would be labeled as cruel while Ran almost seem to have "the right" to do it. This is what I can´t understand.

That would be a moment, if the fanbase gives Ran a free pass on such a "screw you Shinichi" move. Not that I'm doubting you but that would be a fall off you chair moment.

And just to clear this up, I have no idea how this conversation even got here..seriously two Ai+Conan(assuming you are one) fans debating about Ran and I'm on the defending side.

[TheBlind]

With that said, since they're "characters" they're bound to be interpreted differently.  Even just stating something that happened (Kogoro drinks beer) will result in different interpretations of the character's actions depending on how you read the character in the first place.

*shrug*  So really it's not too surprising to see some people thinking Ran as Marie Sue and some people seeing her as a character with flaws.  It's like how I see Shinichi as a Gary Stu minus the fact that nothing ever goes right for him xD (poor Shinichi).

LOL now that I think about it I think Ran still needs a legion of fanboys in canon to complete her Marie Sue-ness xD.  So far everyone who "liked" her either gave her up immediately, was a killer, was a noob, didn't even like her in the first place and only seemed like it because we're watching the series though Conan, etc... 

I don't think so. Those manga characters are created by humans who aren't perfect; which means, a mangaka can try to make his character perfect at first, but he's bound to make a mistake some time and thus, the character is not perfect anymore. Just like what happened with Ran, she seemed perfect at the beginning, but the story kept dragging and dragging, and now she has many flaws in my opinion.

I agree with both of you because perfection in the fictional world is relative( I didn't feel like going into detail the first time). So it's a yes and no answer because a perfect character can exist(you really just have to make them ultimately good and erase every single human flaw) but finding one that comes off perfect to EVERYONE is something that is highly unlikely. Like kirite said it's all about interpretation and like girl19, a "perfect" character will eventually have flaws because people will start looking for them or they will appear over time.

and omg Blind and Nyarl must temporary switched bodies .

Nyarl's probably laughing at me from somewhere.

[Xela]

Several times you have posted that Gosho tries to write her as perfect and a portion of the fanbase thinks she is perfect, so I don't think I twisted anything.

...Yes, exactly- so what´s that to do with my claim that you twisted anything?
I meant that you said I try to find as many flaws as possible in her character because I "hate" her- and I tried to explain that she indeed has flaws (you don´t have to make them up) and my dislike for this character comes from the fact that they are simply overlooked.

Even in this reply you claim how you have a dislike to those that have an untouchable image of her..

Eh... exactly again? That´s the whole point.
I merely want to correct that I don´t dislike anyone for liking a manga character- I think they are just forgetting something on Ran´s part.

I think you missed my point with this one. No matter what the reason, you dislike Ran as you have written in this thread (and THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THAT) but you can't really mock someone for respecting a character(manga/novels/tv/etc) and then with a straight face say you dislike a character. Same goes if you like a character from DC, can't like Shinichi and turn around and say "you adore Genta? He' s a manga character."
Disclaimer: I do NOT adore Genta...covering myself here.

Oh my. I didn´t think someone would have a problem with my "She is a manga charater".
I didn´t intend to mock someone, I just found the sentence "...then Conan+Ai shippers would start to respect Ran" to be...
kinda ridiculous? I mean, they are manga characters. IMO this is taking the whole thing way too serious.

That would be a moment, if the fanbase gives Ran a free pass on such a "screw you Shinichi" move. Not that I'm doubting you but that would be a fall off you chair moment.

I already met a lot of ShinRan-shippers with the motive "Actually, Shinichi is a jerk and doesn´t deserve Ran- but ShinRan is still awesome because she finally gets what she wants" who would even cheer for something like that.
See what I meant? Ran seems to have a "free card" to do anything she wants (as selfish, self-centered and disregarding the feelings of everyone else it may be) and still remains the perfect girl for some people. (Damn you, Gosho. Damn you.)

And just to clear this up, I have no idea how this conversation even got here..seriously two Ai+Conan(assuming you are one) fans debating about Ran and I'm on the defending side.

I don´t see why it would always have to be Ai+Conan and Anti-Ran. I had problems with Ran´s character even before Ai was introduced and I´m not shipping AiCon for it to become canon. It´s pretty clear that it will end with ShinRan and I like AiCon for what it is and not what it could be.

[Soragirl6]

Several times you have posted that Gosho tries to write her as perfect and a portion of the fanbase thinks she is perfect, so I don't think I twisted anything.

...Yes, exactly- so what´s that to do with my claim that you twisted anything?
I meant that you said I try to find as many flaws as possible in her character because I "hate" her- and I tried to explain that she indeed has flaws (you don´t have to make them up) and my dislike for this character comes from the fact that they are simply overlooked.

Even in this reply you claim how you have a dislike to those that have an untouchable image of her..

Eh... exactly again? That´s the whole point.
I merely want to correct that I don´t dislike anyone for liking a manga character- I think they are just forgetting something on Ran´s part.

I think you missed my point with this one. No matter what the reason, you dislike Ran as you have written in this thread (and THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THAT) but you can't really mock someone for respecting a character(manga/novels/tv/etc) and then with a straight face say you dislike a character. Same goes if you like a character from DC, can't like Shinichi and turn around and say "you adore Genta? He' s a manga character."
Disclaimer: I do NOT adore Genta...covering myself here.

Oh my. I didn´t think someone would have a problem with my "She is a manga charater".
I didn´t intend to mock someone, I just found the sentence "...then Conan+Ai shippers would start to respect Ran" to be...
kinda ridiculous? I mean, they are manga characters. IMO this is taking the whole thing way too serious.

That would be a moment, if the fanbase gives Ran a free pass on such a "screw you Shinichi" move. Not that I'm doubting you but that would be a fall off you chair moment.

I already met a lot of ShinRan-shippers with the motive "Actually, Shinichi is a jerk and doesn´t deserve Ran- but ShinRan is still awesome because she finally gets what she wants" who would even cheer for something like that.
See what I meant? Ran seems to have a "free card" to do anything she wants (as selfish, self-centered and disregarding the feelings of everyone else it may be) and still remains the perfect girl for some people. (Damn you, Gosho. Damn you.)

And just to clear this up, I have no idea how this conversation even got here..seriously two Ai+Conan(assuming you are one) fans debating about Ran and I'm on the defending side.

I don´t see why it would always have to be Ai+Conan and Anti-Ran. I had problems with Ran´s character even before Ai was introduced and I´m not shipping AiCon for it to become canon. It´s pretty clear that it will end with ShinRan and I like AiCon for what it is and not what it could be.

Actually I didn't like her when she started crying all the time and I was like what the heck is her character for. But right now I'm crying...so I guess I understand Ran...but why does she always have to cry? She kinda dampens the spirit of the detective story. If Ai wasn't as interesting with Shinchi and just simply was a mourner for a jerk, (I looked up Ran's profile on ivillage and thats what they said she was.) then i wouldn't like Ai too much either. But thank you Goshyo, you actually gave a girl who supposed to be dry more of a personality than Ran.