I minor disagree. Genta is needed to be the strong man ( see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FiveManBand/Anime )kkslider5552000 wrote:Genta is there because Gosho wanted a 6 year old love triangle and because Genta makes every other character seem that much more 3 dimensional by comparison.Girl19 wrote: Actually, I believe that EACH character (heck even Genta) bring something more and different to the story.
Such a thread would be really stupid..Xela wrote: This thread is slowly but steadily turning into "Is Ran important to the story?".
The votes for AixConan are increasing 
You´re already posted in it.ShinRan36 wrote: Such a thread would be really stupid..
This thread is "Best DC Couple" and not "Is Ran impportant for the story?"Xela wrote:You´re already posted in it.ShinRan36 wrote: Such a thread would be really stupid..
Yes there is as your argument is solely based on the belief that the story would of continued on the same path if Ran wasn't in it. Who's to say all those cases and events you listed would be even needed or superior if Ran wasn't used or a different character like Eisuke was inserted in her place as his childhood buddy(also opens the door for yaoi fans..I don't judge). Can't argue for the superiority or inferiority of something when there is nothing to compare it to.Nyarl wrote: Even the main plot would be very different without Ran around. Who would keep Conan involved with Teitan high? Sonoko? Why would Sonoko even associate with him without Ran? That's a pretty important role in the overarching continuity considering how Vermouth and Jodie infiltrated the school. Sure, it could've been contrived so Jodie wasn't a high school teacher or something, but you could handwave any element of any story as "unimportant" if you argue like that. Without Desperate Revival or Chinatown Deja Vu Detective Conan would have a very different storyline, and without Ran those situations would either not have come up in the first place, or certainly would have progressed differently. Even for Halloween Party I doubt Shuuichi could've neutralized Calvados and arrived in time to save Haibara without Ran's distraction, but there {is} probably room for argument there.
Your first point is extremely valid and that is the problem I have with Gosho. Ran is a very capable person that can do many things but it seems like Gosho just keeps reducing her role to "support Shinichi with nice sayings" and "Shinichi is in danger, cry now and worry" roles. Like I argued in the past, Gosho needs to attempt to gradually grow Ran out of the current role she has but instead it seems he's just making her MORE dependent on Shinichi, which is why all the hate for her develops. Ran wasn't built to go this long and Gosho probably didn't think his series would run this long when he made her, so of course she gets overshadowed by the more complex characters but that is on Gosho not Ran, after all she's just following her script.Are you trolling? You think Sonoko could kick through doors and drag people out of burning buildings? Or smash through car windows? Heck, Ran's even saved the "hero" by herself at least twice with her karate, and was certainly not just standing around, passing out, or missing hits during her fights alongside Kyogoku. "Always" isn't just hyperbole when "usually" doesn't even fit, it's just nonsense.
It would be reasonable to say she's superfluous to the story if she were just there to call the cops or to draw out exposition/explanation about the mystery, that is stuff that's truly interchangeable with any character. It's true that's just what she does in quite a few of the stories, but it's true for everyone who isn't Conan, even Haibara, and there are plenty of instances where she's done more than that.
Eh, my argument was precisely that the story would be very different without Ran. Hence declaring her "unimportant" absurd. Folks are free to imagine how much more awesome the story would be without Ran even being there as long as they aren't asserting nonsense to rationalize those aesthetics.TheBlind wrote:Yes there is as your argument is solely based on the belief that the story would of continued on the same path if Ran wasn't in it. Who's to say all those cases and events you listed would be even needed or superior if Ran wasn't used or a different character like Eisuke was inserted in her place as his childhood buddy(also opens the door for yaoi fans..I don't judge). Can't argue for the superiority or inferiority of something when there is nothing to compare it to.Nyarl wrote: Even the main plot would be very different without Ran around. Who would keep Conan involved with Teitan high? Sonoko? Why would Sonoko even associate with him without Ran? That's a pretty important role in the overarching continuity considering how Vermouth and Jodie infiltrated the school. Sure, it could've been contrived so Jodie wasn't a high school teacher or something, but you could handwave any element of any story as "unimportant" if you argue like that. Without Desperate Revival or Chinatown Deja Vu Detective Conan would have a very different storyline, and without Ran those situations would either not have come up in the first place, or certainly would have progressed differently. Even for Halloween Party I doubt Shuuichi could've neutralized Calvados and arrived in time to save Haibara without Ran's distraction, but there {is} probably room for argument there.
Where are you getting that stuff from? Ran seems to be more selfish than that. The times she's shown crying over him I don't remember her being worried about him so much as worried about whether his feelings for her might change, or just because she wants him there with her. (Not arguing that interpretation makes her a "better" character.)"support Shinichi with nice sayings" and "Shinichi is in danger, cry now and worry"
Nyarl wrote:Yes there is as your argument is solely based on the belief that the story would of continued on the same path if Ran wasn't in it. Who's to say all those cases and events you listed would be even needed or superior if Ran wasn't used or a different character like Eisuke was inserted in her place as his childhood buddy(also opens the door for yaoi fans..I don't judge). Can't argue for the superiority or inferiority of something when there is nothing to compare it to.Nyarl wrote: Even the main plot would be very different without Ran around. Who would keep Conan involved with Teitan high? Sonoko? Why would Sonoko even associate with him without Ran? That's a pretty important role in the overarching continuity considering how Vermouth and Jodie infiltrated the school. Sure, it could've been contrived so Jodie wasn't a high school teacher or something, but you could handwave any element of any story as "unimportant" if you argue like that. Without Desperate Revival or Chinatown Deja Vu Detective Conan would have a very different storyline, and without Ran those situations would either not have come up in the first place, or certainly would have progressed differently. Even for Halloween Party I doubt Shuuichi could've neutralized Calvados and arrived in time to save Haibara without Ran's distraction, but there {is} probably room for argument there.
Eh, my argument was precisely that the story would be very different without Ran. Hence declaring her "unimportant" absurd. Folks are free to imagine how much more awesome the story would be without Ran even being there as long as they aren't asserting nonsense to rationalize those aesthetics.
I will admit I was exaggerating for arguments sake but the highlighted portions caught my attention."support Shinichi with nice sayings" and "Shinichi is in danger, cry now and worry"
Where are you getting that stuff from? Ran seems to be more selfish than that. The times she's shown crying over him I don't remember her being worried about him so much as worried about whether his feelings for her might change, or just because she wants him there with her. (Not arguing that interpretation makes her a "better" character.)
It seems to me they have a desperate needy romance/tragedy type relationship, but that applies to both of them, not just Ran. Refusing to go to the U.S. with his parents and let interpol handle things is evidence enough of that on his part. Conan's talk with Haibara about leaving Ran's heart might be evidence he's maturing, but that's just an undeveloped thread so far (from Haibara's thoughts about flowers at the end of that story, it seems just as possible that he needs to learn to bear her tears, that trying to avoid causing emotional pain hasn't really protected Ran from either physical danger or emotional pain).
No, we need another case like The Case of the blackmailing of a Pro Soccer player to remind everyone again how Ran gets when she has been crossed.Meh, I do think Ran needs to be shown saving Conan's ass again, just to remind everyone she isn't just there to be saved in the movies...
You can rebut a claim of "unimportance" by showing how her role was essential to the plot progression. If Ran were actually interchangeable with other existing characters or redundant to the plot you wouldn't need to imagine "Eisuke" coming in to fill the role Ran played, some one already involved in the plot could fill it. Once you start contriving ways for the same milestones in the story to be met without that role at all, whatever character fills it, you might as well be arguing that any element of any story is "unimportant".TheBlind wrote:
No, your argument was that without Ran certain pieces of the plot could not be introduced the same way thus giving her importance (highlighted portions). I explained how those same plot pieces could be introduced just by having Euski as Shinichi's childhood buddy. Then you went on to say certain actions in cases would not be possible if Ran wasn't in it(highlighted again) and I argued you can't possibly know that. What if Shuuchi already had a set plan to neutralize Calvados and Ran's actions made him act carelessly which left Calvados with the gun he used to kill himself. You can't compare to what doesn't exist aka what we don't know.
The Ran we see in the situations where she's actually crying about Shin'ichi, based on her thoughts or what she says to Conan about it. 1.9pp13*, 33.6pp14-15, 37.7pp16-17. If she's crying primarily because she's worried about his safety, she's not mentioning it or thinking it (unless there's an instance I've forgotten). Obviously worry about his safety must be some of it, but from what she actually says and thinks, a lot of it longing.TheBlind wrote:I will admit I was exaggerating for arguments sake but the highlighted portions caught my attention.Where are you getting that stuff from? Ran seems to be more selfish than that. The times she's shown crying over him I don't remember her being worried about him so much as worried about whether his feelings for her might change, or just because she wants him there with her. (Not arguing that interpretation makes her a "better" character.)
???What Ran are you looking at? Is this the same Ran that rushed into the forest haphazardly while crying, begging for a mystical being to show itself so Shinichi can get his memories back?
Oh dear God. Ran does act selfish from time to time, despite how much the author tries to portray her as "perfect".TheBlind wrote:
I will admit I was exaggerating for arguments sake but the highlighted portions caught my attention.
???What Ran are you looking at? Is this the same Ran that rushed into the forest haphazardly while crying, begging for a mystical being to show itself so Shinichi can get his memories back?
I think you are projecting onto Ran, I think we seen enough of Ran to know that she rarely if ever acts selfishly and in a situation where she doesn't talk to Shinichi for a long period of time, she's more likely to worry about him being in danger than him finding a different girlfriend, that's just her nature. Those little daydreams she has about him being with an older woman are just for comic relief so too much shouldn't be read into them. When it comes to Shinichi in serious moments, Ran will always encourage him/be glad that he is safe or worry if she feels he's in danger. If Ran was truly selfish like you said, she would just pick up the phone and tell Shinichi "come back now or don't look for me anymore", making him choose between her and this "case".
I also agree about the dependency being a two way street as at one point Shinichi needs to realize what he's putting Ran through and make a choice like a man which I thought was the talk he had with Haibara but since then things just gone back to normal. Gosho needs to play off that and have Conan make the hard choice of leaving Ran(even if temporarily)
Problem is that those claiming Ran isn't important where using flawed logic as their support and then you tried to argue agaisnt them using the SAME flawed logic. They magically waved Ran out of the story and supported their belief that it would be better with OPINIONS. Then they began to argue their opinions as fact which lead to your entrace in which you tried to show them the error in that but then you also used their same flawed logic when you started to list cases and events that "couldn't" work if Ran wasn't in it. Me pointing out that it could work wasn't an argument for "Ran isn't needed", it was more an argument for neither side can dictate the superioty or inferioty of the story with removing or leaving Ran because it's all speculation and opinions. We don't have "Detective Conan:Ran doesn't exist version" to compare to which means people can argue till this thread reaches 500 pages and nothing would be resolved.Nyarl wrote:You can rebut a claim of "unimportance" by showing how her role was essential to the plot progression. If Ran were actually interchangeable with other existing characters or redundant to the plot you wouldn't need to imagine "Eisuke" coming in to fill the role Ran played, some one already involved in the plot could fill it. Once you start contriving ways for the same milestones in the story to be met without that role at all, whatever character fills it, you might as well be arguing that any element of any story is "unimportant".TheBlind wrote:
No, your argument was that without Ran certain pieces of the plot could not be introduced the same way thus giving her importance (highlighted portions). I explained how those same plot pieces could be introduced just by having Euski as Shinichi's childhood buddy. Then you went on to say certain actions in cases would not be possible if Ran wasn't in it(highlighted again) and I argued you can't possibly know that. What if Shuuchi already had a set plan to neutralize Calvados and Ran's actions made him act carelessly which left Calvados with the gun he used to kill himself. You can't compare to what doesn't exist aka what we don't know.
I'm not sure what you are arguing here but to me it seems like you are saying that when Ran worries, it is more for wanting Shinichi to be close to her (longing) than her actually worried about his safety. Aren't they the same thing, can't it be said the reason she wants Shinichi to be around her is to know that he is safe and having a good time living out his life with her than stuck on some weird "case"? Which wouldn't make her selfish in anyway.Where are you getting that stuff from? Ran seems to be more selfish than that. The times she's shown crying over him I don't remember her being worried about him so much as worried about whether his feelings for her might change, or just because she wants him there with her. (Not arguing that interpretation makes her a "better" character.)
I will admit I was exaggerating for arguments sake but the highlighted portions caught my attention.
???What Ran are you looking at? Is this the same Ran that rushed into the forest haphazardly while crying, begging for a mystical being to show itself so Shinichi can get his memories back?
The Ran we see in the situations where she's actually crying about Shin'ichi, based on her thoughts or what she says to Conan about it. 1.9pp13*, 33.6pp14-15, 37.7pp16-17. If she's crying primarily because she's worried about his safety, she's not mentioning it or thinking it (unless there's an instance I've forgotten). Obviously worry about his safety must be some of it, but from what she actually says and thinks, a lot of it longing.
(Just to nitpick, Ran wasn't crying when she dashed into the forest, she only started crying when she saw the real Shin'ichi.)
* Heh, oops, now that I reread page 14 it is clear alot of it was worry. Still, I think alot of it is just wanting him with her for her sake, especially after he let her know he was alive.
I may be wrong but it seems to me you just don't plain like RanXela wrote:Oh dear God. Ran does act selfish from time to time, despite how much the author tries to portray her as "perfect".TheBlind wrote:
I will admit I was exaggerating for arguments sake but the highlighted portions caught my attention.
???What Ran are you looking at? Is this the same Ran that rushed into the forest haphazardly while crying, begging for a mystical being to show itself so Shinichi can get his memories back?
I think you are projecting onto Ran, I think we seen enough of Ran to know that she rarely if ever acts selfishly and in a situation where she doesn't talk to Shinichi for a long period of time, she's more likely to worry about him being in danger than him finding a different girlfriend, that's just her nature. Those little daydreams she has about him being with an older woman are just for comic relief so too much shouldn't be read into them. When it comes to Shinichi in serious moments, Ran will always encourage him/be glad that he is safe or worry if she feels he's in danger. If Ran was truly selfish like you said, she would just pick up the phone and tell Shinichi "come back now or don't look for me anymore", making him choose between her and this "case".
I also agree about the dependency being a two way street as at one point Shinichi needs to realize what he's putting Ran through and make a choice like a man which I thought was the talk he had with Haibara but since then things just gone back to normal. Gosho needs to play off that and have Conan make the hard choice of leaving Ran(even if temporarily)
Yes, she was begging for Shinichi to get his memories back- but is it said that she does this only for his well-being?
She rarely cares about the Shinichi they found memoryless and pinning at how he isn´t the Shinichi she knows.
I don´t get what´s supposed to be the extreme selflessness about that act.
And "those little daydreams" occure far more often than her worrying about his current situation.
She always demands for him to come back. Even in Volume 47, she imagines him tricking her to be with another woman, although there are loads of hints that he´s in serious trouble and not that happy about his situation either.
I have yet to see a moment where she actually thinks about his possible feelings.
About the italicized: When exactly was that?
Also: He knows what he is putting her trough. I´m not saying that his hesitation to tell her the truth is great, but it´s understandable for me- not like these antics of Ran I mentioned above.
Funny how Shinichi being selfish has to be pointed out every time while Ran being selfish is simply overlooked.
. So you have a problem when people try to portray her as a perfect girl even after you claimed yourself that's how Gosho writes her. .
