Akai (SPOILERS)

[sstimson]

Before I reply. I see you avoided the question. So I will ask it again here. IS the BO smart or dumb?

Smart, even though they fell into a trap because someone smarter than them (Conan) helped plan it.

Ok you said smart. So next question. If there are smart like you said, Then why when would they open the possible of letting their Thorn in their side get away, and not be better prepared. As for Akai might think it is a trap does not hold water, because he knows it is a trap, and I am sure they know that as well.But using only two agents to kill some one is to say a dumb one of making that one is dead. If they are smart like you said they are why not cover their bases more and remove the slim possible of their thorn getting away. As in more agents hidden and watching to make sure the mouse is without question killed?

[Abs.]

In order to make sure someone is dead, one must:

Have at least 10 people shoot the person full of bullets
Then, have at least 10 people inject air bubbles into their bloodstream
Then, have at least 10 people smash the body with sledgehammers
Collect the fragments of the body into 10 separate piles
Burn one pile
Throw another pile into the ocean
Bury the third pile
Cook and have 10 different people eat the fourth pile
Throw the fifth pile into a toxic waste dump
Feed the raw sixth pile to 10 different dogs, all different breeds
Keep the seventh pile locked in an impenetrable vault
Throw the eight pile into acid
Shoot the ninth pile into space
And carry the tenth pile with you at all times in a clear plastic bag.

Only then, can one be sure.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Camel's continued undisguised public appearances are 100% detrimental to Kir's cover.

That's been bothering me for a while now. I suppose he's banking on the fact the BO didn't pay close attention to the person who was driving Kir. To Camel's credit, the windows of the van were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer meaning Vodka didn't get a good idea of what Camel looked like while tailing the van. Camel was also somewhat facing away from the Org when he was playing unconscious after the van wrecked, meaning the org only saw his hair length and body build instead of his face.

[sstimson]

What it appears sstimson is postulating is thus:

1. The BO knew, since before Kir was asked to kill Akai, that Kir was a mole.
2. The BO asked Kir to kill Akai, thinking that she would either kill him, or be revealed as a mole.
3. Akai dies.
4. The BO feeds false information about Bourbon to Kir: The name Bourbon, and that he/she is skilled in observation and deduction.
5. The FBI gets this information from Kir.
6. Using this information (?), the FBI decides to trap the BO (somehow) by getting someone to dress up like Akai and walk around town, showing his face to FBI agents Jodie and Camel and startling the hell out of them.
7. The BO find out about this "Akai" and don't kill Kir for 1) being a mole, and 2) conspiring with Akai to fake his death
8. The BO decide to snipe "Akai," setting themselves up in a very conspicuous manner
9. The "Akai" notices the BO sniper and smiles at her (but does not move to avoid being shot), unsettling her and tipping Gin off that he's probably not the real Akai
10. Conan messed up the FBI plan by having everyone go back into the mall.
11. If the FBI plot had worked, Chianti should have still shot "Akai" dead, and then the agents would have swooped in to capture the BO (?)
12. The FBI plot didn't work because the BO didn't open fire on "Akai"

...did I get all that right?

So where does "Bourbon" play in to all of this?  How is it that Kir is still useful to the BO?




At any rate, sstimson pointed something out that I'd forgotten about

Camel's continued undisguised public appearances are 100% detrimental to Kir's cover.

not sure who you are asking and you forgot something very important. In order to trap the Bo the Bo MUST doubt that Akai is dead. Otherwise this trap will be so clear as to be seen miles away. The Bo again must be fooled into think that Akai is alive. Thiis is where Chekhov evidence comes in this should happen before 6.

Kir is a Feed the Mole. The Bo knows she is a mole so if the plan to do a job In one place, they tell her to be in another so the Fbi will go to the fake address and seem to stop the action there while the real goal is happening somewhere else. Bourbon was used to confirm that Kir is indeed a mole, and I think the BO might have other spies out there, If the BO just killed her that might show they have a mole in the FBI.

[Abs.]

So you are saying that the FBI wanted to make sure the BO knew that Kir was a mole?

[sstimson]

Camel's continued undisguised public appearances are 100% detrimental to Kir's cover.

That's been bothering me for a while now. I suppose he's banking on the fact the BO didn't pay close attention to the person who was driving Kir. To Camel's credit, the windows of the van were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer meaning Vodka didn't get a good idea of what Camel looked like while tailing the van. Camel was also somewhat facing away from the Org when he was playing unconscious after the van wrecked, meaning the org only saw his hair length and body build instead of his face.

And again you miss the important one. same volume page 7. It shows there very clear that the Van window that Kir is in is clear and A Bo agent can clearly see Camel's side profile. Next?

So you are saying that the FBI wanted to make sure the BO knew that Kir was a mole?

You got that wrong. The BO wanted to confirm that Kir is a Mole and used the code word Bourbon to do just that.

[Abs.]

So you are saying that the FBI wanted to make sure the BO knew that Kir was a mole?

You got that wrong. The BO wanted to confirm that Kir is a Mole and used the code word Bourbon to do just that.

However, as you said previously:

In order to trap the Bo the Bo MUST doubt that Akai is dead. Otherwise this trap will be so clear as to be seen miles away. The Bo again must be fooled into think that Akai is alive.

How can the FBI set up a fake Akai and cast doubt on Kir actually having killed Akai without exposing her as a mole to the BO?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

To Camel's credit, the windows of the van were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer meaning Vodka didn't get a good idea of what Camel looked like while tailing the van.

And again you miss the important one. same volume page 7. It shows there very clear that the Van window that Kir is in is clear and A Bo agent can clearly see Camel's side profile. Next?

Did you actually read the pages I linked to? The three vans are identical and Chianti clearly says: "The side windows are tinted so I can't see what is inside." Gosho was letting us see into the van for artistic purposes, the same way he removes bars/other objects from in front of faces when they are looking through them. From the perspective of the BO, they were opaque.

As for Akai might think it is a trap does not hold water, because he knows it is a trap, and I am sure they know that as well.

They don't know that Akai would think it's a trap for sure, because Kir's "I need to leave the Org" story was somewhat plausible. Akai might be suspicious and not show. For the Org, this is the best change to recoup some of the ground they lost after Org vs. FBI. They are willing to sacrifice Kir even if she is loyal because they aren't willing to take the chances of keeping her around if she isn't. However, just killing her without using her would be a waste. Using her as bait to lure out Akai is a step up from total uselessness because it gives the Org the chance to keep a loyal agent, find out if she spilled her guts to the FBI already, and kill a dangerous foe -- Akai.
If the plan to lure out Akai doesn't work, then they'll kill her and be done with it. There's the offchance she might run away with Akai instead, but if she was compromised already, then she had her entire hospital stay to sing to the FBI. In the Org's mind, the damage was already done, and the best option left is to cover their bases. Finding out if Kir was loyal or not is useful info, even if she escapes, because it would mean that they Org could figure out if they had to cover up secrets Kir could reveal to the FBI.
The Org wasn't banking on the "have Kir kill Akai" plan working from the start. It was a lucky break in their perspective that it did.

As in more agents hidden and watching to make sure the mouse is without question killed?

Akai came early and scouted out ahead to make sure there were no additional agents. Additionally, Gin specifically said that Kir had to do it alone because Akai would smell a trap otherwise.

[sstimson]

To Camel's credit, the windows of the van were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer meaning Vodka didn't get a good idea of what Camel looked like while tailing the van.

And again you miss the important one. same volume page 7. It shows there very clear that the Van window that Kir is in is clear and A Bo agent can clearly see Camel's side profile. Next?

Did you actually read the pages I linked to? The three vans are identical and Chianti clearly says: "The side windows are tinted so I can't see what is inside." Gosho was letting us see into the van for artistic purposes, the same way he removes bars/other objects from in front of faces when they are looking through them. From the perspective of the BO, they were opaque.

It is clear where this chapter started that the Driver side window of Camel's van was down. It is possible he might has rolled it up but that is not clear. What is clear is his arm resting in the window frame while he is talking to his boss. This means there is a chance he left it that way. The other side window does look closed, and remember he needs to be able to make a fast exit from that Van. Also the same view is shown of both Vodka from inside and Camel from outside, the other vans do look like all windows are up. This open is the one in question.

As for Akai might think it is a trap does not hold water, because he knows it is a trap, and I am sure they know that as well.

They don't know that Akai would think it's a trap for sure, because Kir's "I need to leave the Org" story was somewhat plausible. Akai might be suspicious and not show. For the Org, this is the best change to recoup some of the ground they lost after Org vs. FBI. They are willing to sacrifice Kir even if she is loyal because they aren't willing to take the chances of keeping her around if she isn't. However, just killing her without using her would be a waste. Using her as bait to lure out Akai is a step up from total uselessness because it gives the Org the chance to keep a loyal agent, find out if she spilled her guts to the FBI already, and kill a dangerous foe -- Akai.
If the plan to lure out Akai doesn't work, then they'll kill her and be done with it. There's the offchance she might run away with Akai instead, but if she was compromised already, then she had her entire hospital stay to sing to the FBI. In the Org's mind, the damage was already done, and the best option left is to cover their bases. Finding out if Kir was loyal or not is useful info, even if she escapes, because it would mean that they Org could figure out if they had to cover up secrets Kir could reveal to the FBI.
The Org wasn't banking on the "have kill Akai" plan working from the start. It was a lucky break in their perspective that it did.

I am not trying to play dumb to day but that makes no sense. Remember this: First she is in the hosiptal. Then the Bo learns where she is. Next the She lets herself leave from the FBI  and get rescued from the BO and now want to leave to return. If that is the case Why
1) did she tell the Bo she knocked her driver out
2) allow herself to be resuced. Why not pretend to be dead like Camel might have done?

You say it is plausible. And now I ask how.

Bo view of things

If Kir is lying and she is a plant, then her Asking for help to leave to the FBI will make no sense and they will know it is a trap
If Kir is telling the truth, her asking for safety will make no sense since as far so far as the BO knows she just helped kill the agent who was helping her. If she really wanted to escape she would not have done that. So the FBI again will see it is a trap.

Either way the BO should know the FBI will see this as a trap.

The only thing I can see is they hope they can get Kir to think she killed Akai. But that raises the next question is why did Akai KNOWING it is a trap come, and to the BO way of think it can only be to keep her alive. But if the FBI is willing for  one of the better Agent to enter a trap, there must be a very good reason. Either Akai loved Kir, and maybe you can come up with evidence of that or, She is an FBI mole. Now the next question comes into play. Why would the Bo allow a known FBI mole to enter their ranks. By her shooting Akai she proves this as she should have shown more feeling if she loved him. And as I said earlier, it can only be for Feed the Mole reasons. If you will admit to my reasoning then this is the one way Akai could walk away. The Bo knowing Kir is a mole and her shooting Akai should prove this, Then the BO also knows his death will be faked. It is possible that the Bo helped fake it and looked the other way though other scenes seem to say otherwise. This is the only way I can see for the BO to be smart and still let Akai get away.

As in more agents hidden and watching to make sure the mouse is without question killed?

Akai came early and scouted out ahead to make sure there were no additional agents. Additionally, Gin specifically said that Kir had to do it alone because Akai would smell a trap otherwise.

And you are saying he scouted so good, he missed Gin. And if he missed Gin why not other agents. But see above for why an FBI agent would know this is a trap. If you need the FBI way of thinking just ask

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

It is clear where this chapter started that the Driver side window of Camel's van was down. It is possible he might has rolled it up but that is not clear.

Camel is not an idiot. Of course he rolled it up.

I am not trying to play dumb to day but that makes no sense. Remember this: First she is in the hosiptal. Then the Bo learns where she is. Next the She lets herself leave from the FBI  and get rescued from the BO and now want to leave to return. If that is the case Why
1) did she tell the Bo she knocked her driver out
2) allow herself to be resuced. Why not pretend to be dead like Camel might have done?
If Kir is telling the truth, her asking for safety will make no sense since as far so far as the BO knows she just helped kill the agent who was helping her. If she really wanted to escape she would not have done that. So the FBI again will see it is a trap.

1 and 2 at once) Because a hypothetical-loyal-to-the-BO Mizunashi Rena thought that the BO would welcome her back, not be suspicious about how she escaped.

If Kir is lying and she is a plant, then her Asking for help to leave to the FBI will make no sense and they will know it is a trap

That is wrong. The FBI could easily believe it (they might suspect a trap but take the risk anyway) and would want the chance to get information from the hypothetical-loyal-to-the-BO Kir. There is even a specific name for a kind of person who deserts their former ally because staying with their ally is too dangerous or doesn't match their ideals anymore: a turncoat.

As in more agents hidden and watching to make sure the mouse is without question killed?

Akai came early and scouted out ahead to make sure there were no additional agents. Additionally, Gin specifically said that Kir had to do it alone because Akai would smell a trap otherwise.

And you are saying he scouted so good, he missed Gin. And if he missed Gin why not other agents. But see above for why an FBI agent would know this is a trap.

Akai was scouting out for snipers or any other operatives who would be able to interfere with the meeting and would need time to set up and get prepared for an ambush. Gin and Vodka timed their arrival from some point far away so that it would arrive right as the meeting started and thus they would not be caught by Akai's search. However, the drawback to that plan is that Gin and Vodka cannot interfere should things go bad because they don't have time to set up and have to drive all the way around to reach Akai and Kir's vehicles. If Kir walked over to Akai's car and jumped in (a hypothetical defection method), Gin and Vodka would not be able to catch them.

[itsashleylove]

i think akai is alive~ because of the appearances mysteriously appearing in parts.
then again, i wonder how he managed to fake his death from Kir.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

i think akai is alive~ because of the appearances mysteriously appearing in parts.
then again, i wonder how he managed to fake his death from Kir.

Story D has a Theories and Facts Reference Area for information like this. It's worth a solid look.

[Shuuichi Akai]

i think akai is alive~ because of the appearances mysteriously appearing in parts.
then again, i wonder how he managed to fake his death from Kir.

Story D has a Theories and Facts Reference Area for information like this. It's worth a solid look.

That is long!

[rira]

This "Akai dead or alive" has been creating an unsure condition.
But if we looked back, the key is only based on one, yes one single question:
"Did FBI ever told Conan about Akai's death?"
I'm sure, you (the same as me) who rread carefully about DC will say "never!"
Yes, FBI never told Conan about what happened in Raiha Falls (Akai being shot)
Why I ask this question?
Now let's think, if FBI never told Conan, normally Conan will think that everything's alright, that nothing happened to Akai, he still alive. Then, Conan won't feel weird about the appearance of Akai (remember, he doesn't know that Akai is dead).
But why...why when Jodi told him that Scar Akai appeared in department store, he seems shocked?
Why? In his knowledge, everything's OK, nothing happened to Akai, but why he shocked about Scar Akai's appearance?
The answer is, Conan knows about what happened in Raiha Falls.
Who told him? Only FBI and The Black Organozation who know about Raiha Falls (police and the other only know that it's an exploding car accident), and FBI never told him.
The logical answer is because Raiha Falls is a set up made by Conan, Akai, and Kir to fake Akai's death.
This answering the question why Conan shocked about Scar Akai's appearance, because that's is out of the plan.
Akai shouldn't appear, if he did so the set up plan will be destroyed.
Hten who's Scar Akai?
Nothing else, he's BO Spy (might be Bourbon). 

[Commi-Ninja]

If I'm not mistaken, Chekhov has got this same idea in more detail somewhere, though I'm too lazy to find out where it is.

I will say, though, that Conan is pretty intuitive, and it probably wouldn't be difficult for him to figure out that the FBI thought Akai was dead, whether he had made such a plan with Akai or not.
-Chekhov isn't lazy!-