Akai (SPOILERS)

[sstimson]

And just when is this trap supposed to have sprung?  After they kill Scar Akai?

If I were the FBI/CIA and setting a trap, I'm pretty sure I would have apprehended the gathered BO BEFORE they killed my bait.

Unless my bait was a sacrificial lamb, in which case I would be guilty of entrapment and accessory to murder, etc.  In a foreign country, no less.

But to close the trap the bait must be taken. Maybe this Akai is a robot. ( Just kidding )

[Abs.]

Both Scar Akai and Kir are robots?  Okay, sure, that'd work.  Except no one goes to jail for killing a robot.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Spoiler: quoted stuff

next question is why even have Bourbon at all. He would like so many others be after Hairaba. He is not after Akai since as far as the BO is concerned Akai is DEAD. We know this  since Kir is still walking and breathing. Letting loose another Agent and getting that leaked is going to make it harder to find her as a target known to be hunted for will go further underground.

And why would this phantom agent decide to look like Akai? As the FBI believes Akai is dead, anyone looking like him is going to draw attention to him and he is going to be suspect. The FBI will be watching him very closely. That would make his job of finding Hairaba that must harder.

No unless Bourbon is trying to get a look at more FBI agent, this makes no sense.If by some chance Akai were to be alive, the police answering the emergency call would know. Also as he would need a contact to help him, some in the FBI would also know. No the Bo pretending to be Akai does not make sense. Also if Conan had not interfered, the BO would have tried to kill him. That only leaves two possibles Either Akai is alive but does not know who he is and so most would still think him dead as he has not reported in. This would mean he would be out of it and while he might be able to avoid the bomb, he would not be with it enough to move a body to take his place. He would be a walking clay pigeon and with out protection could die easy as no one has reason to protect him and so the Bo waits for their moment and this time he is killed for real with no one finding out about it for possibly days as he is alone.

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=83087#p83087

Let me ask you a question. Your an FBI agent.You have as your job tonite to protect a Bait agent. Then you hear something that makes it clear that your Job is over for the day. Do you show to all that I am an FBI agent and this was a trap. or at that moment do you decide to act like a normal person and act on the anomonument? It is clear that your job and chance for the person you are trying to trap to take the bait is gone.

I myself would act like a normal person. After all the chance for the bait to be taken is gone, and the Bait is safe. Best if I do not give the game away so we can try again at a later date. If those Agents are like me then your statement about them just being normal people comes undone. The thing is the way it worked out we may never know. But as I see it, it is a better way to tell the story.

"The sniper has the agent in sight, at my mark we... Wait, they are giving out 100 bucks in coupons? Forget the mission, those dress shoes I saw on sale would look fabulous at a funeral!" - Abs. that was for you

Chekhov, I would find it interesting to know why the FBI did not set up an agent like Sherry and walking them around.

I don't think anyone in the BO would actually think Sherry would be stupid enough to walk around in public. They'd smell the trap a mile away. Thus it wouldn't work.

I did it an earier post your blood trails must have been done by Kir.

And I rebutted your point by telling you the art doesn't support what you said, and that Kir wiping the blood off Akai's face doesn't make any sense, and thus you need to come up with a better explanation.

Are you going t suggest that with Gin and the BO watching she turned away so the fake could be set up.

Yes, she walked over to the bonnet of the car to go fiddle with the bomb, giving Akai time to perform the body swap.

That would have earned her a bullet.

She did it anyway and she is still alive.

Now normally in this case would mean roll the car off a cliff and make it look like an accident.  But note in this case , that did not happen. After shooting him they used a bomb. Make after using the bomb they planned to make it look like accident. But I think as the BO left a lot of evidence behind ( see earier post for a partial list)

The police were coming. Gin didn't have time to order Kir to do anything complicated. I wish you would read my posts more carefully because I explained this once already.

he might have decided to show his enemy so last respect and clean him up a little before blowing him up. That way no one but Kir who knows wouldd kill her even without orders that his softness got out. It does happen in real life. Rival show sorrow when the other passes on and miss them. I think this cleanup up meant more then the bomb.  

You are completely misreading Gin's character.

[Abs.]

"The sniper has the agent in sight, at my mark we... Wait, they are giving out 100 bucks in coupons? Forget the mission, those dress shoes I saw on sale would look fabulous at a funeral!" - Abs. that was for you

<3 

[sstimson]

Spoiler: quoted stuff

next question is why even have Bourbon at all. He would like so many others be after Hairaba. He is not after Akai since as far as the BO is concerned Akai is DEAD. We know this  since Kir is still walking and breathing. Letting loose another Agent and getting that leaked is going to make it harder to find her as a target known to be hunted for will go further underground.

And why would this phantom agent decide to look like Akai? As the FBI believes Akai is dead, anyone looking like him is going to draw attention to him and he is going to be suspect. The FBI will be watching him very closely. That would make his job of finding Hairaba that must harder.

No unless Bourbon is trying to get a look at more FBI agent, this makes no sense.If by some chance Akai were to be alive, the police answering the emergency call would know. Also as he would need a contact to help him, some in the FBI would also know. No the Bo pretending to be Akai does not make sense. Also if Conan had not interfered, the BO would have tried to kill him. That only leaves two possibles Either Akai is alive but does not know who he is and so most would still think him dead as he has not reported in. This would mean he would be out of it and while he might be able to avoid the bomb, he would not be with it enough to move a body to take his place. He would be a walking clay pigeon and with out protection could die easy as no one has reason to protect him and so the Bo waits for their moment and this time he is killed for real with no one finding out about it for possibly days as he is alone.

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=83087#p83087

Problem with that is the bullet the Bo almost put in his head. Are you saying that the BO is so dumb that this could happen?

Gin: When He goes out kill him! Ok, he dead and we just found out he is Bourbon. Gin- time to go into hiding.

Why would the BO shoot their guy. That should kill your idea. But if he was either an FBI trap, or Akai as an FBI trap ( a very remote possibly ) or a mind less Akai, that would make sense. Time for you to Tell all:

WHY WOULD THE BO ORDER THE DEATH OF A MAJOR AGENT OF THEIRS LIKE BOURBON??

Let me ask you a question. Your an FBI agent.You have as your job tonite to protect a Bait agent. Then you hear something that makes it clear that your Job is over for the day. Do you show to all that I am an FBI agent and this was a trap. or at that moment do you decide to act like a normal person and act on the anomonument? It is clear that your job and chance for the person you are trying to trap to take the bait is gone.

I myself would act like a normal person. After all the chance for the bait to be taken is gone, and the Bait is safe. Best if I do not give the game away so we can try again at a later date. If those Agents are like me then your statement about them just being normal people comes undone. The thing is the way it worked out we may never know. But as I see it, it is a better way to tell the story.

"The sniper has the agent in sight, at my mark we... Wait, they are giving out 100 bucks in coupons? Forget the mission, those dress shoes I saw on sale would look fabulous at a funeral!" - Abs. that was for you

not surprising you got your timing wrong again.

It happens like this That message is going out to all who can hear it. This does include normal persons. Remember part of the FBI job in this case to to try to get the Non Agents out of the trap area. Once that message lots of people will be coming. You should realize then as so as that message is heard, The Cheese has left the trap and your job for the night is over your Fake is now in a wall of people and there is no way for him to be any more in danger. If you stay, you are in danger of getting trampled to death. But if you wish, stay at your post and I will make sure to goto your funeral. Also maybe the BO will not catch on that this was a trap and we can reset. Of course you kind of died in the line of duty

Chekhov, I would find it interesting to know why the FBI did not set up an agent like Sherry and walking them around.

I don't think anyone in the BO would actually think Sherry would be stupid enough to walk around in public. They'd smell the trap a mile away. Thus it wouldn't work.

I did it an earier post your blood trails must have been done by Kir.

And I rebutted your point by telling you the art doesn't support what you said, and that Kir wiping the blood off Akai's face doesn't make any sense, and thus you need to come up with a better explanation.

Are you going t suggest that with Gin and the BO watching she turned away so the fake could be set up.

Yes, she walked over to the bonnet of the car to go fiddle with the bomb, giving Akai time to perform the body swap.

you still do not get it. This was a BO trap. Would the BO be so careless about removing a major thorn in their side. Is there any reason not to think   that there more agents then just what we see there. And that is the key if other agents watching and in position they will see all. There is no chance for Akai to even move in this case. And your trick will not work. Also Vodka is there to be I am sure an extra pair of eyes. And he should be watching it direct not on the screen like Gin. I am sorry, but your suggestion make the BO look so completely dumb that if they were always this dumb, the real question becomes why were they not stopped long ago. Face this fact if the BO is smart then Akai is dead. If the BO is dumb then Akai could be alive. Can you at least agree with that? Of course if you are going with they are dumb, then please look at your answers in my other threat about Hairaba still being BO as you did say that would make them dumb. Then the question becomes which is it?

That would have earned her a bullet.

She did it anyway and she is still alive.

Now normally in this case would mean roll the car off a cliff and make it look like an accident.  But note in this case , that did not happen. After shooting him they used a bomb. Make after using the bomb they planned to make it look like accident. But I think as the BO left a lot of evidence behind ( see earier post for a partial list)

The police were coming. Gin didn't have time to order Kir to do anything complicated. I wish you would read my posts more carefully because I explained this once already.

he might have decided to show his enemy so last respect and clean him up a little before blowing him up. That way no one but Kir who knows wouldd kill her even without orders that his softness got out. It does happen in real life. Rival show sorrow when the other passes on and miss them. I think this cleanup up meant more then the bomb.  

You are completely misreading Gin's character.

I disagree. Was it Gin who said of Akai " he is like a lover you hope never to meet?" Also when Gin saw it was Akai shooting at him, he cleared out fast. That to me shows a great respect. Is there any reason to think this would not continue after Akai's Death?

[Abs.]

The mere fact that the BO sent KIR to kill Akai (instead of Gin doing it himself) indicates that the BO already thought sending Kir, with the threat of death in case of failure, was enough to ensure Akai's death.

[Akonyl]

Problem with that is the bullet the Bo almost put in his head. Are you saying that the BO is so dumb that this could happen?

Gin: When He goes out kill him! Ok, he dead and we just found out he is Bourbon. Gin- time to go into hiding.

Why would the BO shoot their guy. That should kill your idea. But if he was either an FBI trap, or Akai as an FBI trap ( a very remote possibly ) or a mind less Akai, that would make sense. Time for you to Tell all:

WHY WOULD THE BO ORDER THE DEATH OF A MAJOR AGENT OF THEIRS LIKE BOURBON??

it was stated in the file that Gin has absolutely no idea what Bourbon's doing, because Bourbon is a secretive guy:

Spoiler:

So, why would the BO almost shoot their own guy? Because they don't know it's their guy (until possibly the end of the file, depending on what it was Vermouth told Gin).

[sstimson]

The mere fact that the BO sent KIR to kill Akai (instead of Gin doing it himself) indicates that the BO already thought sending Kir, with the threat of death in case of failure, was enough to ensure Akai's death.

First Kir need to be tested before being allowed to return ( they might have started being suspicious after learning Camel lived, meaning her return WAS too easy and the FBI wanted Kir back with the BO.Another reason why I suspect any thing Kir might say.I am sure the BO is still suspicious and keep her around for Feed the Mole reasons. ( In other words misinformation, another reason I believe that Bourbon does not exist. You do not tell your real  plans to someone you are sure is a mole. ) Her even tthink she killed Akai ( yes for a moment we play chekhov game . It this case ever thing happens like Chekhov thinks only the BO gave Kir blanks and she did not know it) They are use the idea that they have proof she killed someone to keep her in line. ( Also Canon remember about the Wolfman in the showdown case )
That is why Kir had to do it ( to be able to prove loyalty and blackmail ).Because of what happened with Camel makes it unlikely the BO would fall for the same trick twice. That would again be a way of the BO being too dumb to live. Same Question: Is the BO dumb or smart? If smart, then Akai is DEAD. If dumb, Then Akai might be alive.

[sstimson]

Problem with that is the bullet the Bo almost put in his head. Are you saying that the BO is so dumb that this could happen?

Gin: When He goes out kill him! Ok, he dead and we just found out he is Bourbon. Gin- time to go into hiding.

Why would the BO shoot their guy. That should kill your idea. But if he was either an FBI trap, or Akai as an FBI trap ( a very remote possibly ) or a mind less Akai, that would make sense. Time for you to Tell all:

WHY WOULD THE BO ORDER THE DEATH OF A MAJOR AGENT OF THEIRS LIKE BOURBON??

it was stated in the file that Gin has absolutely no idea what Bourbon's doing, because Bourbon is a secretive guy:

Spoiler:

So, why would the BO almost shoot their own guy? Because they don't know it's their guy (until possibly the end of the file, depending on what it was Vermouth told Gin).

But you do not think that some in the BO would know and tell their Agent not to kill him. If he is Bourbon then he should know that walking like Akai is asking to have a bullet be put in his head. Why would he take such a chance?

[Akonyl]

Problem with that is the bullet the Bo almost put in his head. Are you saying that the BO is so dumb that this could happen?

Gin: When He goes out kill him! Ok, he dead and we just found out he is Bourbon. Gin- time to go into hiding.

Why would the BO shoot their guy. That should kill your idea. But if he was either an FBI trap, or Akai as an FBI trap ( a very remote possibly ) or a mind less Akai, that would make sense. Time for you to Tell all:

WHY WOULD THE BO ORDER THE DEATH OF A MAJOR AGENT OF THEIRS LIKE BOURBON??

it was stated in the file that Gin has absolutely no idea what Bourbon's doing, because Bourbon is a secretive guy:

Spoiler:

So, why would the BO almost shoot their own guy? Because they don't know it's their guy (until possibly the end of the file, depending on what it was Vermouth told Gin).

But you do not think that some in the BO would know and tell their Agent not to kill him. If he is Bourbon then he should know that walking like Akai is asking to have a bullet be put in his head. Why would he take such a chance?

and that agent letting them know not to kill him may have been Vermouth, as we don't know anything about what she said other than that it was something the boss said due to being cautious.

Also, communication within the organization is obviously flawed, as when Pisco found out about Haibara, he didn't tell anyone about that, either, and ended up taking it to the grave (though it's been a while since I've seen that case). It's not unlikely that Gin went off because he thought he saw Akai, and Bourbon went off to do his own thing, and nobody told either of them what the other person was doing.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

After 3 frikken edit conflicts...

Problem with that is the bullet the Bo almost put in his head. Are you saying that the BO is so dumb that this could happen?
Gin: When He goes out kill him! Ok, he dead and we just found out he is Bourbon. Gin- time to go into hiding.
Why would the BO shoot their guy. That should kill your idea. But if he was either an FBI trap, or Akai as an FBI trap ( a very remote possibly ) or a mind less Akai, that would make sense. Time for you to Tell all: WHY WOULD THE BO ORDER THE DEATH OF A MAJOR AGENT OF THEIRS LIKE BOURBON??

Yes, the Organization almost killed their own agent. Oops. It's a good thing for them that Gin realized his mistake in time.
In the dept store case, Gin told Kir he had no idea what Bourbon was up to and that he didn't like Bourbon much. Gin also said Bourbon was secretive like Vermouth. Basically Bourbon went off and disgusied as Akai to lure out Akai/Sherry the same way Vermouth disguised as Araide without telling anyone about it to go after Sherry. Because Bourbon and Gin are not on the best of terms, Bourbon didn't tell Gin what he was doing. Vodka and whatever agent saw Bourbon at the bank heist/ department store mistook Bourbon's scar Akai disguise for the real deal and informed Gin. Because Gin didn't hear about Bourbon's plan, he didn't know scar Akai was Bourbon and thus came to the Beika dept. store looking to kill the real Akai. Luckily for Bourbon and Gin, when Vermouth told Gin to be careful and Gin got a good look at scar Akai, so he realized his error and called Chianti off.

It happens like this That message is going out to all who can hear it. This does include normal persons. Remember part of the FBI job in this case to to try to get the Non Agents out of the trap area. Once that message lots of people will be coming. You should realize then as so as that message is heard, The Cheese has left the trap and your job for the night is over your Fake is now in a wall of people and there is no way for him to be any more in danger. If you stay, you are in danger of getting trampled to death. But if you wish, stay at your post and I will make sure to goto your funeral. Also maybe the BO will not catch on that this was a trap and we can reset. Of course you kind of died in the line of duty.

The FBI didn't know what Conan's plan was, so it must have been their original plan to let scar Akai walk outside where Chianti could easily pick him off from above. Having lots of people around does not protect someone from a sniper with a bird's eye view. Chianti isn't that bad of a shot - when she fired back at Akai who was 700 yards away, she placed her bullet rather close to him.

Honestly, I can't fathom why you think sending your man out in a crowd of ordinary citizens into the range of a sniper makes sense, much less is a good idea.

Is there any reason not to think   that there more agents then just what we see there. And that is the key if other agents watching and in position they will see all.

There were no other BO agents besides Gin, Vodka, and Kir at Raiha pass that night. Akai came early and scouted out ahead. Additionally, Gin specifically said that Kir had to do it alone because Akai would smell a trap otherwise.

I disagree. Was it Gin who said of Akai " he is like a lover you hope never to meet?"

That was the other guy who wears a suit and hat and commits crimes. :P This is the kind situation where it is good to check the manga before posting something that is extremely silly.

Also when Gin saw it was Akai shooting at him, he cleared out fast. That to me shows a great respect. Is there any reason to think this would not continue after Akai's Death?

He cleared out fast because he was injured to the point where a chest wound caused him to be leaking blood from the mouth, and didn't want the FBI to run up on the roof and nab him.

Let's examine it from another angle. If Gin showed respect to Akai, he would be using polite japanese language to refer to Akai. Japanese language is big on having a zillion different ways to refer to someone politely or disrespectfully and all sorts of degrees in between. Abs. (or someone else fluent in Japanese), how would you characterize the speech Gin uses to refer to Akai?

[sstimson]

Before I reply. I see you avoided the question.
So I will ask it again here.

IS the BO smart or dumb?

[Abs.]

Abs. (or someone else fluent in Japanese), how would you characterize the speech Gin uses to refer to Akai?

Grudging respect and hate, all mixed up into one.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Before I reply. I see you avoided the question. So I will ask it again here. IS the BO smart or dumb?

Smart, even though they fell into a trap because someone smarter than them (Conan) helped plan it.

[Abs.]

What it appears sstimson is postulating is thus:

1. The BO knew, since before Kir was asked to kill Akai, that Kir was a mole.
2. The BO asked Kir to kill Akai, thinking that she would either kill him, or be revealed as a mole.
3. Akai dies.
4. The BO feeds false information about Bourbon to Kir: The name Bourbon, and that he/she is skilled in observation and deduction.
5. The FBI gets this information from Kir.
6. Using this information (?), the FBI decides to trap the BO (somehow) by getting someone to dress up like Akai and walk around town, showing his face to FBI agents Jodie and Camel and startling the hell out of them.
7. The BO find out about this "Akai" and don't kill Kir for 1) being a mole, and 2) conspiring with Akai to fake his death
8. The BO decide to snipe "Akai," setting themselves up in a very conspicuous manner
9. The "Akai" notices the BO sniper and smiles at her (but does not move to avoid being shot), unsettling her and tipping Gin off that he's probably not the real Akai
10. Conan messed up the FBI plan by having everyone go back into the mall.
11. If the FBI plot had worked, Chianti should have still shot "Akai" dead, and then the agents would have swooped in to capture the BO (?)
12. The FBI plot didn't work because the BO didn't open fire on "Akai"

...did I get all that right?

So where does "Bourbon" play in to all of this?  How is it that Kir is still useful to the BO?




At any rate, sstimson pointed something out that I'd forgotten about

Camel's continued undisguised public appearances are 100% detrimental to Kir's cover.