Akai (SPOILERS)

[PT]

You are forgetting that just by being a mole is putting your life at rick.

As for the other the plant is very well protected and again, if I can get most the the Bo, is it worth the sacrifice of maybe a few agents.

When is it time to stopping watching and act? When is it time to stop collecting information and us what you got to bring some members to justice. Do you allow the terrorist to bomb while you learn about how they bomb?

You're right. Being a mole is very dangerous, especially if you get caught. But the FBI wouldn't just say "well, it's okay because she was putting her life at risk anyway."  There are much smarter/less dangerous ways to lure out the BO than to use someone who they think is dead.

The best way to stop the BO is to learn about them. It's kind of a "you can't attack what you can't see" kind of logic. Acting rashly will likely get more people killed than sitting back and waiting would.

And it's still possible to act while gathering information.

[sstimson]

You are forgetting that just by being a mole is putting your life at rick.

As for the other the plant is very well protected and again, if I can get most the the Bo, is it worth the sacrifice of maybe a few agents.

When is it time to stopping watching and act? When is it time to stop collecting information and us what you got to bring some members to justice. Do you allow the terrorist to bomb while you learn about how they bomb?

You're right. Being a mole is very dangerous, especially if you get caught. But the FBI wouldn't just say "well, it's okay because she was putting her life at risk anyway."  There are much smarter/less dangerous ways to lure out the BO than to use someone who they think is dead.

The best way to stop the BO is to learn about them. It's kind of a "you can't attack what you can't see" kind of logic. Acting rashly will likely get more people killed than sitting back and waiting would.

And it's still possible to act while gathering information.

And yet the BO was ready to act. The trap door would close and Bo agents caught in that trap, maybe Gin as well

[Abs.]

As for the other the plant is very well protected and again, if I can get most the the Bo, is it worth the sacrifice of maybe a few agents.

What plant?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Sstimson, your ideas about scar Akai make no logical sense. No one is going to think your idea has any merit whatsoever until you can coherently explain why the FBI would try such a stupid plan that would not only threaten the lives of their own agents, the CIA ally feeding them info about the Org., and random bystanders, and then for some reason keeping their own agents in the dark about it. (Jodie, Camel)

Regarding Akemi and Akai, the comparison you are trying to make by saying if Akai could have faked her death, then Akemi could have faked hers makes about as much sense as saying that if members of the Org. wear suits and hats and commit crimes, then Kaito Kid must be a member of the Org because he wears a suit and hat and commits crimes. As I have already explained multiple times to you in various threads, Akai and Akemi's death situations are completely different and the quality of the evidence suggesting a trick occurred is not comparable.
Which brings me to the last point. You still haven't adequately explained any of the following:

The first and most serious problem by far is the disappearing blood trails on Akai's face and the change in the positioning of the body.

Spoiler: manga pictures

Spoiler: Akai's death from the anime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdAuu4BCuc

Why did these blood trails vanish? It doesn't make sense for Kir to wipe the blood off because she was just going to blow Akai up in a minute or two. Kir wasn't shown it wiping off. So what happened? This isn't an art mistake. Gosho deliberately drew the blood trails this way. Even the anime gets it right. It wasn't changed when this chapter came out in volume. (Gosho does sometimes correct mistakes in volumes - like the positioning of the fingers for the CIA lie detecting grip) Same goes for the way Akai's head "untilted" itself.

There is no artistic evidence Kir touched Akai's face or head. If you reread that section, the only time she leaned in close was to plant the bomb, and when Hidemi planted the bomb, Akai was already switched. (The switch happened when Hidemi moved to the bonnet of the vehicle to fiddle with her detonator, taking her camera off Akai for a few moments.) Even supposing she did touch Akai, Gin and Vodka are watching the whole affair over camera. She isn't supposed to be showing sympathy for the enemy. That would raise suspicion from Gin. Also the police sirens started approaching the moment Kir finished the second shot. Are Gin and Vodka going to let her dawdle playing with Akai's head and wiping blood off when she needs to scram ASAP?

Spoiler: 609 pg 5

http://www.dctp.ws/V59-Reader/V59-1Read/A5.html

Why would Gin want to show respect to his hated enemy when he is ordering that the body be bombed right afterwards? Also the police are coming, Gin doesn't want Kir to stick around where the police might come across the compromising scene and arrest her. She only barely got away from the scene in time. The police came right when she pulled away.

This is effectively a smoking gun for something weird happening because it is difficult to explain. People in the Akai (spoilers) thread already went over this pretty extensively and no one came up with any reasonable ideas that could explain the vanishing blood trails consistent with the idea that Akai actually died from Kir's gunshots.

The second problem is Conan's actions. If the real Akai was dead, Conan would know whose fingerprints were on the cellphone he gave to Jodie and the one she gave the police because Conan would know which cellphone he gave her from the start. It would match the body if it was the one with Akai's prints, or not match the body if it was the other phone. Conan is familiar with police protocol so he knew the police would have to keep his cellphone if it had matching prints. Why would he check the serial number of the cellphone to see if it was different? There is no need to do that because he should know the police kept it if it was the one with Akai's prints, or returned it if it didn't have Akai's prints. There was no reason to actually check. [or even memorize the serial number in the first place] There was a reason to check though if Conan wanted to know the fake death plan worked.

The third is Conan's reaction to the news. When Jodie gave him the cellphone, he thinks of saying something to her and then smiles and decides to wave it off. When Eisuke later brought up the death, Conan continues to be serene, even smirking and thinking "Yeah, it's alright". Conan became buddies with Akai over the course of Red vs. Black. Shouldn't he show more sympathy or concern if Akai really sacrificed himself?

[xpon]

conan know something that we dont know!

[sstimson]

Sstimson, your ideas about scar Akai make no logical sense. No one is going to think your idea has any merit whatsoever until you can coherently explain why the FBI would try such a stupid plan that would not only threaten the lives of their own agents, the CIA ally feeding them info about the Org., and random bystanders, and then for some reason keeping their own agents in the dark about it. (Jodie, Camel)

Regarding Akemi and Akai, the comparison you are trying to make by saying if Akai could have faked her death, then Akemi could have faked hers makes about as much sense as saying that if members of the Org. wear suits and hats and commit crimes, then Kaito Kid must be a member of the Org because he wears a suit and hat and commits crimes. As I have already explained multiple times to you in various threads, Akai and Akemi's death situations are completely different and the quality of the evidence suggesting a trick occurred is not comparable.
Which brings me to the last point. You still haven't adequately explained any of the following:

The first and most serious problem by far is the disappearing blood trails on Akai's face and the change in the positioning of the body.

Spoiler: manga pictures

Spoiler: Akai's death from the anime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdAuu4BCuc

Why did these blood trails vanish? It doesn't make sense for Kir to wipe the blood off because she was just going to blow Akai up in a minute or two. Kir wasn't shown it wiping off. So what happened? This isn't an art mistake. Gosho deliberately drew the blood trails this way. Even the anime gets it right. It wasn't changed when this chapter came out in volume. (Gosho does sometimes correct mistakes in volumes - like the positioning of the fingers for the CIA lie detecting grip) Same goes for the way Akai's head "untilted" itself.

There is no artistic evidence Kir touched Akai's face or head. If you reread that section, the only time she leaned in close was to plant the bomb, and when Hidemi planted the bomb, Akai was already switched. (The switch happened when Hidemi moved to the bonnet of the vehicle to fiddle with her detonator, taking her camera off Akai for a few moments.) Even supposing she did touch Akai, Gin and Vodka are watching the whole affair over camera. She isn't supposed to be showing sympathy for the enemy. That would raise suspicion from Gin. Also the police sirens started approaching the moment Kir finished the second shot. Are Gin and Vodka going to let her dawdle playing with Akai's head and wiping blood off when she needs to scram ASAP?

Spoiler: 609 pg 5

http://www.dctp.ws/V59-Reader/V59-1Read/A5.html

Why would Gin want to show respect to his hated enemy when he is ordering that the body be bombed right afterwards? Also the police are coming, Gin doesn't want Kir to stick around where the police might come across the compromising scene and arrest her. She only barely got away from the scene in time. The police came right when she pulled away.

This is effectively a smoking gun for something weird happening because it is difficult to explain. People in the Akai (spoilers) thread already went over this pretty extensively and no one came up with any reasonable ideas that could explain the vanishing blood trails consistent with the idea that Akai actually died from Kir's gunshots.

The second problem is Conan's actions. If the real Akai was dead, Conan would know whose fingerprints were on the cellphone he gave to Jodie and the one she gave the police because Conan would know which cellphone he gave her from the start. It would match the body if it was the one with Akai's prints, or not match the body if it was the other phone. Conan is familiar with police protocol so he knew the police would have to keep his cellphone if it had matching prints. Why would he check the serial number of the cellphone to see if it was different? There is no need to do that because he should know the police kept it if it was the one with Akai's prints, or returned it if it didn't have Akai's prints. There was no reason to actually check. [or even memorize the serial number in the first place] There was a reason to check though if Conan wanted to know the fake death plan worked.

The third is Conan's reaction to the news. When Jodie gave him the cellphone, he thinks of saying something to her and then smiles and decides to wave it off. When Eisuke later brought up the death, Conan continues to be serene, even smirking and thinking "Yeah, it's alright". Conan became buddies with Akai over the course of Red vs. Black. Shouldn't he show more sympathy or concern if Akai really sacrificed himself?

so you are saying a live and dumb Akai would knowing walking in the open showing him self to others makes sense

but a careful plan where a well protected Agent is set up to look like Akai does not.

WHY?

The first case is a much better chance for bystanders to get hurt. The planned setup where most if not all the 'bystanders' are agents would cut down a great deal any chance of an bystander getting hurt.

Yuo think it that Akai to basiclly say here I am, Shoot me with no possible gain makes sense but the planned trap does not.

Sorry but if you can not see why it makes no sense and to me is a bad story line to use a dead character, bring them back from the dead and set them up to almost get killed again for no possible gain, then in a way you seem like the clay piegon Akai walking and asking to be shot.

Why would you do that as a story teller. Why not hide the character you brought back from the dead, and just before the end reveal that yes the Dead duck is in fact a live duck and is going to to battle.

Alot of those so called evidence could just be part of the misinformation being used to make the BO believe a lie of Akai is alive. As for why see below where I hope I am putting it in to simple enough form for even you to understand.

[sstimson]

ok this is likely to be long.

First question: Is there any question as to why the Bo agents ( Vodka, Gin, Belmont, Etc. ...) need to be caught and arrested?
If you need this explained just ask

Now for how the trap is set up. I will use the word Agents. These maybe either CIA or FBI. I am using this word to cover either group. It is also possible they might work together to set the Trap.

For those who do not understand what a trap is, I will explain. A trap to used to capture an unwanted pest. This can be anything from Rats, Bugs, Rabbits, Etc... A trap is also used to capture animals for zoos and maybe used to also capture food like fish, crabs, Etc. Traps of a different sort can be used to capture people.

A trap works in one of two ways either a trap is set where the pest, person, food item is known to cross like the sticky traps used to trap bugs.The other kind of trap has bait. Bait is something the person, bug, food item, etc is known to want. This can be food, a scent, an item valued by the trappie ( which is again a bug, rat, food item, person, etc. ) This bait is used to bring the trappie into the trap.. Once the trappie has entered the trap, the trap is activated and the trappie is then either caught or killed depending on what kind of result the trapper ( the one setting the trap ) wants. Traps are / were used to capture animals like minks, foxes, bears, etc... for their pelts.

I will now tell you about kinds of traps and how they work

I will start with the hole trap. Anyone who has watched Pokemon's early seasons has seen Team Rocket ( Jesse, James, and their cat Pokemon ) dig a hole they hoped Ash and company would fall in. They did this by digging a hole hopefully deep enough to prevent ash and company from getting out. Next after digging the hole where it was likely ash and company would come, they would then cover it in such a way normally with something covering the hole, and then covering that as well so ash and company do not see the hole. What Team Rocket wanted to happen is ash walks over the trap hole the trap cover gives way and ash and company end up in the hole. When this happens ash and company become trapped.

A trap known as a snare works like the hole trap. This time instead of a hole , a rope or something like a rope is tied to normally a tree in such a way that when the trappie enter the snare ( which is the trap ) normally to get the bait, they will trigger the thing holding the snare down and end up normally upside down with a foot caught in the snare's loop.

Any questions?

Now lets explain how a trap of either the FBI, CIA or both works.

Fist they find a place where they can control as much as possible who comes and goes. There is a good chance they will replace the normal workers with agents. Then they use other agents to act like normal customers. This is the inside part. Every place inside this setup location is watched and the other people besides the FBI agents should be the people they are trying to trap. Doing it this way greatly lowers the change an non agent of getting hurt. This is the inside part. The same kind of thing is also done outside. Agents are set up in hiding to watch where it this case a Bo Agent like for example Gin might go to make his move. These agents normally know who and what to look for and when they see the trappie ( the one they are either trying to catch or kill if necessary ) they let the main ones know. The Main one which in this case might be James Black for example wait for the right time and when ready, close the trap either capturing or killing those who are caught. There is a very high chance of those that get trapped are not going to get away.

The setup is done in such a way that the bait , in this case 'Scar-"Akai"' can only be acted against in one place and again as I noted earlier all location from where the trappie can act are covered. The trappie once they enter the trap are trapped and will not escape very easy. I think the last store bomb case which had scar-Akai in it was a possible trap, as it to me seems that too many FBI characters for example Jodie were at the right place at the right time. And I believe that if Conan had not interfered, a lot of the BO would have been caught. But since they need to be 'caught in the act' and Conan actions prevent the Bo from acting, the FBI was forced to let them go. They might have tried to follow but the BO got away. It is hard to know for sure how many of the customers were real customers and how many were agents. The same might be said for the people outside. But when Conan did his trick, they were forced to act 'normal' as to not give themselves away.

Some asked why not tell people like maybe Jodie about the plan. The answer is that sometimes a plan like this must leave some people in the dark. If you tell too many about your plans and they are personal involved, then they might give the game away by either acting too wrong or by acting too right. Sometimes it is necessary not to tell some people so they will not need to act at all and all their action will be normal and natural. This is best when those person who the trappie ware watching closely  need to act completely natural as to not give the game away.

Also some asked why use the DEAD Akai for this trap. The answer is this. Again using the FBI for this example, but remember that this is also true for the CIA. One thing we knows about the Bo is they Want Akai dead. Please ask if you need to know why. Yes the Bo would also like to get Hairaba, but as she is not a member of the FBI, most would think that using her as bait would be too risky. It is best to us one of their own. The problem is the BO is pretty sure that they killed Akai. Some might say that  this is clear because of the amount of possible evidence  they left behind (parts of the bomb, possible fingerprints on bomb parts ( Kir is not shown wearing gloves ), bullet castings). Also anyone who might have seen either Gin and Vodka in their car and see them park their car, or anyone went by Kir either before arriving or leaving the scene. It is clear from this the BO does not care about their normal hiden and cleaned up methods. They want Akai DEAD. All the above point to this fact. THE FBI know if they can get the Bo to believe that Akai escaped his death, they can use the idea of Akai being alive to trap the BO.

More about the disinformation the FBI and/or CIA used to get the Bo to believe Akai is alive in a different post.

[Abs.]

Well obviously if there was a trap it didn't work.  Since, you know...  The BO got away again.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

so you are saying a live and dumb Akai would knowing walking in the open showing him self to others makes sense
but a careful plan where a well protected Agent is set up to look like Akai does not.
WHY?

I don't understand where you got that. I've been saying scar Akai is Bourbon since the Teito bank heist case came out. Go read the thread if you don't believe me. If scar Akai was the real Akai, the only reason he would walk out in the open would be if he has amnesia, and I don't think scar Akai has amnesia, so I don't think he is the real Akai.

Alot of those so called evidence could just be part of the misinformation being used to make the BO believe a lie of Akai is alive. As for why see below where I hope I am putting it in to simple enough form for even you to understand.

Can you try not to be rude? Sstimson, if you asked anyone on the forum, they will probably tell you that your posts aren't easy to understand.

There are so many problems with your theory, it would take too long for me to point all of them out, so I'll just point out one of the big ones.
If scar Akai was an FBI agent playing bait for the Org, why did the FBI nearly let him get shot? He went outside unexposed while a sniper was pointing at him. Also it was obvious all the people around him were ordinary citizens because they rushed back inside to get coupons. FBI officers on a mission wouldn't do that, and they wouldn't know it was Conan's plan because he didn't tell anyone what he was about to do. Your idea is suggesting that bait FBI agent scar Akai went outside while a sniper had him in his sights while he was surrounding by ordinary citizens, and this was actually an intentional plan. It doesn't take a law enforcement officer to tell you that may be the dumbest idea ever.
As Abs. so eloquently put it:

"LOL let's have the BO kill both one of our own agents AND the CIA guy on the inside LOL  It's okay it's a TRAP LOL"

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Also, you still haven't explained the bloodtrails and Conan's actions. Since this is the "Is Akai dead or not" thread, you should focus on those aspects first.

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[kholoudsafir]

I like Chekhov's theories, but to be fair with sstimson I like to see his/her explanation about Conan's re-actions to Akai's death.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I like Chekhov's theories, but to be fair with sstimson I like to see his/her explanation about Conan's re-actions to Akai's death.

Just to be sure, are you asking Sstimson or me to explain Conan's actions (serial # checking, talking to Jodie) after Akai "died"?

[kholoudsafir]

I like Chekhov's theories, but to be fair with sstimson I like to see his/her explanation about Conan's re-actions to Akai's death.

Just to be sure, are you asking Sstimson or me to explain Conan's actions (serial # checking, talking to Jodie) after Akai "died"?

sorry for not being clear, was asking sstimson, because I read your views about Conan's re-actions, while sstimson did not talk about them, if I am not mistaken.

[sstimson]

Well obviously if there was a trap it didn't work.  Since, you know...  The BO got away again.

The trap did not work because of Conan. He let the bait get away.

I would like to point out that Trap use in Detective Conan is Canon. See the Red Wall Case.

Another trap was set by Jodie ( but they forgot to set a password ) and unset by Vermouth. That one would have caught vermouth if the had a password, so a lookalike who did not give the password would not unset the trap. Since they had no password, Vermouth could act like Jodie and get the trapping officers to go home. Since Vermouth would not have known the password, that would not have worked with one. ( I know unclear any your questions)

Conan and Eri set a trap with a rice dish in the Korogo Guilty Case. ( rivial of Eri gets killed and Korogo is still in the room )

[Abs.]

And just when is this trap supposed to have sprung?  After they kill Scar Akai?

If I were the FBI/CIA and setting a trap, I'm pretty sure I would have apprehended the gathered BO BEFORE they killed my bait.

Unless my bait was a sacrificial lamb, in which case I would be guilty of entrapment and accessory to murder, etc.  In a foreign country, no less.

[sstimson]

so you are saying a live and dumb Akai would knowing walking in the open showing him self to others makes sense
but a careful plan where a well protected Agent is set up to look like Akai does not.
WHY?

I don't understand where you got that. I've been saying scar Akai is Bourbon since the Teito bank heist case came out. Go read the thread if you don't believe me. If scar Akai was the real Akai, the only reason he would walk out in the open would be if he has amnesia, and I don't think scar Akai has amnesia, so I don't think he is the real Akai.

Again Why. I think Boundon is a word to find a leak in the BO. The idea is this you let people you suspect know a certain intel. The one intel that makes it outside will show which one is your leak. After the both the Kir getting hurt case and the capture and death of the spy for the BO in the hospital, I am sure the BO starting think they might have a leak. Bourbon is their way to plug that leak.

next question is why even have Bourbon at all. He would like so many others be after Hairaba. He is not after Akai since as far as the BO is concerned Akai is DEAD. We know this  since Kir is still walking and breathing. Letting loose another Agent and getting that leaked is going to make it harder to find her as a target known to be hunted for will go further underground.

And why would this phantom agent decide to look like Akai? As the FBI believes Akai is dead, anyone looking like him is going to draw attention to him and he is going to be suspect. The FBI will be watching him very closely. That would make his job of finding Hairaba that must harder.

No unless Bourbon is trying to get a look at more FBI agent, this makes no sense.If by some chance Akai were to be alive, the police answering the emergency call would know. Also as he would need a contact to help him, some in the FBI would also know. No the Bo pretending to be Akai does not make sense. Also if Conan had not interfered, the BO would have tried to kill him. That only leaves two possibles Either Akai is alive but does not know who he is and so most would still think him dead as he has not reported in. This would mean he would be out of it and while he might be able to avoid the bomb, he would not be with it enough to move a body to take his place. He would be a walking clay pigeon and with out protection could die easy as no one has reason to protect him and so the Bo waits for their moment and this time he is killed for real with no one finding out about it for possibly days as he is alone.

OR and in my mind this is the most likely he is an FBI trap for the BO. Simple reason for the evidence you mentioned, make the BO believe it failed again. You know that Akai death was a trap, and while you might not see them I am sure there are more BO agents then just Gin and Vodka. I am sure that once Akai entered the Bo's trap, even if Kir had not shot him, he was going to get shot.Read my about post about traps and replace FBI with BO. Once Akai entered he was DEAD. Kir would have been two if she made any funny moves. Back to my idea: Reasons to use A look-a-like Akai as bait. The FBI know the BO wants Akai Dead. They also know the Bo is after Hairaba, but again as I said above, better to use one of their own. Chekhov, I would find it interesting to know why the FBI did not set up an agent like Sherry and walking them around. Is it a case of just did not think of it? Using s Sherry look a like would make an interesting trap. If the BO know Akai is dead, they have no reason to jump at the bait of a fake Akai. They would realize that the Fake Akai is a trap. No step one must be getting the BO to at lease Doubt Akai is dead. That is the reason for your meantioned evidenceto show Akai could be alive to trick the Bo. Which must believe the that for this kind of trap to work.

Alot of those so called evidence could just be part of the misinformation being used to make the BO believe a lie of Akai is alive. As for why see below where I hope I am putting it in to simple enough form for even you to understand.

Can you try not to be rude? Sstimson, if you asked anyone on the forum, they will probably tell you that your posts aren't easy to understand.

There are so many problems with your theory, it would take too long for me to point all of them out, so I'll just point out one of the big ones.
If scar Akai was an FBI agent playing bait for the Org, why did the FBI nearly let him get shot? He went outside unexposed while a sniper was pointing at him. Also it was obvious all the people around him were ordinary citizens because they rushed back inside to get coupons. FBI officers on a mission wouldn't do that, and they wouldn't know it was Conan's plan because he didn't tell anyone what he was about to do. Your idea is suggesting that bait FBI agent scar Akai went outside while a sniper had him in his sights while he was surrounding by ordinary citizens, and this was actually an intentional plan. It doesn't take a law enforcement officer to tell you that may be the dumbest idea ever.
As Abs. so eloquently put it:

"LOL let's have the BO kill both one of our own agents AND the CIA guy on the inside LOL  It's okay it's a TRAP LOL"

Let me ask you a question. Your an FBI agent.You have as your job tonite to protect a Bait agent. Then you hear something that makes it clear that your Job is over for the day. Do you show to all that I am an FBI agent and this was a trap. or at that moment do you decide to act like a normal person and act on the anomonument? It is clear that your job and chance for the person you are trying to trap to take the bait is gone.

I myself would act like a normal person. After all the chance for the bait to be taken is gone, and the Bait is safe. Best if I do not give the game away so we can try again at a later date. If those Agents are like me then your statement about them just being normal people comes undone. The thing is the way it worked out we may never know. But as I see it, it is a better way to tell the story. Your way means that if no Conan actions means Scar-Akai is Dead.

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Also, you still haven't explained the bloodtrails and Conan's actions. Since this is the "Is Akai dead or not" thread, you should focus on those aspects first.

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I did it an earier post your blood trails must have been done by Kir. Are you going t suggest that with Gin and the BO watching she turned away so the fake could be set up. That would have earned her a bullet. I say it again. Gin said "clean up" Now normally in this case would mean roll the car off a cliff and make it look like an accident.  But note in this case , that did not happen. After shooting him they used a bomb. Make after using the bomb they planned to make it look like accident. But I think as the BO left a lot of evidence behind ( see earier post for a partial list) he might have decided to show his enemy so last respect and clean him up a little before blowing him up. That way no one but Kir who knows wouldd kill her even without orders that his softness got out. It does happen in real life. Rival show sorrow when the other passes on and miss them. I think this cleanup up meant more then the bomb.