Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ Discussion)

Post by Jd- »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Jd- wrote: Edited title, just in case newcomers come by and--
Is this really necessary? Why don't you rewrite the subject as "is Akai really dead? episode XXX case discussion" so everyone knows it is a discussion about an old case, not the recent stuff.
Absolutely necessary. Not everyone has caught up to 491+, and it seems a little reckless to have "is Akai really dead?" being the topic title. I considered adding "(491+ discussion)" but didn't feel it changed the game too much. Re-writing it while still including "Akai" doesn't solve the problem, though. Most people who see a topic with "Is **SPOILERS** really dead?" will enter for two reasons: 1) They feel they are far enough along in the anime to be comfortable with a discussion of the sort or 2) just really don't care for spoilers, thus the warning.

Anyone who randomly comes by and sees the most recent topic under General Discussion asking whether a character they may not even be familiar with yet (as in, someone who has only recently gotten into the series/started to watch it consistently from the beginning) is dead could, well... spoil a significant plotline for them.

I'll alter the title a little more, I suppose, but the "Akai" = out.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead?

Post by sstimson »

Chekhov, Did I need to start a why is Akai alive and Akemi Dead?

three points

1)Akai shots were point blank. Akemi was shot from across the room
2) Akai was shot twice. Not sure about Akemi but I know she was not shot in the head.
3) Akemi was seconds ' dead ' when help arrived. Akai was not only looking lifeless but blown up as well when help might have been going by.

I know you are going to say because of the story, but I think if you are going to say Akemi is dead, then Akai must be as well
If you were to change your mind and say Akemi might still be alive then I would agree Akai might also be alive.

But if I need to I will poke holes in your theory. I know we already had part of this discussion and even you admitted that you must dispend belief since I did prove in real life you can not use blanks that way without real chance of death if not serious injury.
Last edited by sstimson on July 13th, 2010, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by xpon »

even for manga reader like me.. the answer is UNCLEAR!
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead?

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

pofa wrote: This may have been explained at some point, but I wonder why Jodie checked the fingerprints of the body in the car against the ones on Conan's cell phone rather than running them through the FBI database (wouldn't Akai's prints be in there)?

I guess if Chekhov's theory is true, Gosho might not have wanted those prints run against Akai's in the database. :P Or is there some reason why Jodie wouldn't have been able to access the database or why Akai's prints wouldn't have been there?
She didn't have access to the body and its fingerprints to check against a file since it was in police custody. I'm going to guess the police would notice if someone had dusted the print on the phone already, which she wouldn't do because she is pretending Akai is unrelated to the FBI and was some random person she met in this situation. The phone makes for a convenient source of prints and a better story than another object which has Akai's right hand fingerprints on it. She had no reason to suspect the print on the phone was a fake.

She suspected at first Shuu did a switch.
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sstimson wrote: Chekhov, Did I need to start a why is Akai alive and Akemi Dead?
I feel like I'm being followed... How is Akemi relevant to this again? In any case, Akemi is certainly dead. She died in Conan's arms right up close where Conan can see, smell, hear, and touch her. This is worlds apart from fooling someone over a camera in the dark. Also she was at the shipyard and outside when shot. Most importantly, there is no evidence of any tricks what-so-ever in Akemi's death. In Akai's death, we have the disappearing bloodtrails, the unnatural actions, and Okiya/Scar Akai. Assuming something without evidence leads to false conclusions at a fairly high rate.
sstimson wrote: in real life you can not use blanks that way without real chance of death if not serious injury.
The important word here is "chance", not "guaranteed" death. This doesn't mean the pair wouldn't gamble on those chances. The only thing that is certain is that Gin would have killed Kir if she didn't follow through with shooting Akai and the FBI and CIA would have lost their best source of Org Intel. The above plan to fake Akai's death wasn't foolproof, Gin could have given Kir a gun that she didn't have the right caliber blanks for, or demanded she shoot him with the full clip, or something like that. Akai, Kir, and Conan took the risk anyway.
Also consider that Kir probably would have killed Akai for real if the plan wasn't looking like it would work out. The reason I think this is because Conan probably heard the news about one body being found in the matching truck, examined at Jodie's reaction, and then checked the serial number of the phone to see if it had been changed. While hearing the news about the incident and checking Jodie's reaction would be enough to verify that the plan partially worked, Conan would only need to check the serial number to make sure the police kept it as evidence: i.e. the phone fingerprint matched the body fingerprint. If it didn't match, his original phone would have been returned and would equal a "plan failed, Akai really died".
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on July 27th, 2010, 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by pofa »

I see. So it was addressed and I just forgot. Thanks. :)
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Dragonxxslayer »

Nicely thought out theory Chekhov!
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by sstimson »

[quote="Chekhov MacGuffin"]
Someone finally made an “is Akai dead?â€
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Nyarl »

sstimson wrote: Time for hole number one. Gin is clearly shown to stay put until the Police car is heard. He is watching from the back. He would see if Akai moved before the police. It is possible again not shown, but while Gin is watching the back door another BO agent could be watching from a safe location the front. If that is so then Akai can not move without being seen by the BO
Uh, Gin was focused on the video feed from the camera on Rena, Gin was too far away and it was too dark for him to see much directly. Even the anime has gotten to the point where Gin thinks he could have been tricked. You can't just claim there were other spotters, either. Gin even said Akai has a "good nose" and could notice them unless they were watching from far away. He was interested in minimizing the chance Akai would notice the trap, not maximizing the ability to confirm the death.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

I also agree to chekhovs theory :)

But you wrote that
Jodie and the FBI don't know Conan has two phones.
Well, dunno about the whole FBI, but jodie should know that conan has 2 phones, right? Since she was with him while he took out 2 phones because he didn't know which one was ringing. And Jodie said that he is like a "double agent" (or something similar) which was a tip for conan about the haido park i think.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by kentasaiba »

Hmmmm. But Takagi still found fingerprints on the burned corpse. If Bourbon would check them, he would get Kusudas fingerprints and knows Akai is alive. (Would he probalby had done).
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Nyarl wrote:
sstimson wrote: Time for hole number one. Gin is clearly shown to stay put until the Police car is heard. He is watching from the back. He would see if Akai moved before the police. It is possible again not shown, but while Gin is watching the back door another BO agent could be watching from a safe location the front. If that is so then Akai can not move without being seen by the BO
Uh, Gin was focused on the video feed from the camera on Rena, Gin was too far away and it was too dark for him to see much directly. Even the anime has gotten to the point where Gin thinks he could have been tricked. You can't just claim there were other spotters, either. Gin even said Akai has a "good nose" and could notice them unless they were watching from far away. He was interested in minimizing the chance Akai would notice the trap, not maximizing the ability to confirm the death.
This. Regarding the possibility of other spotters, you got to prove they exist before you can dispute someone else's evidence with them. Pure speculation doesn't cut it. That's generally how the burden of proof goes.
Kleene Onigiri wrote: I also agree to chekhovs theory :)
But you wrote that
Jodie and the FBI don't know Conan has two phones.
Well, dunno about the whole FBI, but jodie should know that conan has 2 phones, right? Since she was with him while he took out 2 phones because he didn't know which one was ringing. And Jodie said that he is like a "double agent" (or something similar) which was a tip for conan about the haido park i think.
The double agent thing probably refers to her saying Conan has a split personality which about Conan's personality doing a 180 when he is talking over the phone to Ran. You are right about the phones though, she may have seen both, and he said he has two cells later.
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Even so, she didn't ask Conan for the other one though just to be safe, so I assume she hasn't thought about which of Conan's phones Akai's prints was on yet. I'll fix the theory to reflect this.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by scineram »

Scar Akai is Bourbon. Okiya is Okiya. Akai is shinderü.
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by sstimson »

Ok You did not like hole one. Well her is hole two.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
The basic summary of the plan to fake Akai's death goes like this: Mizunashi Rena will meet Akai and will pretend to shoot him. To make it look realistic, blank cartridges and blood packets with small detonators will be used. Akai will pretend to die and fall down in the truck. When Rena leaves after placing the small bomb, Akai places Kusudu Rikumichi's body in his place and exits the truck. Meanwhile Jodie will have the one of Conan's two cellphones that has Rikumichi's fingerprints on it. She will think they are Akai's and when she goes to validate the identity of the body with the police, it will match Rikumichi's fingerprints and she will be fooled into thinking Akai died.

Now the details...
After the shenanigans with Kusudu Rikumichi, Akai and Conan went to talk to Rena after getting Eisuke to "wake her up". After that, they had the chat about wanting Rena to sneak back into the org and received her promise to cooperate and return to the Org, and began to formulate a plan on how to reimplant Rena without them rejecting her. At that point, Akai figured that even with the return Rena plan, it was likely the Org wouldn't trust Rena and would require her to do some task to regain the boss's trust. Akai, who has experience in the Org, probably guessed the task might be to kill him and decided to prepare appropriately to be safe. This would be the time frame when the plan to fake Akai's death was formulated.
while it is possible they planned for a shooting, What if instead Gin had decided to kill him another way. Were they prepared for every way?

What if Gin had insisted on Kir Injecting Poison into Akai shot body, would the plan have allowed for that? Yes I know you are going to say no evidence of that happening. But you do not see every second. So it could have been there. You say the BO is very careful. Are you lieing to us when you say that? Why would the BO NOT make certain beside any doubt that one of their greatest foes was dead. Why would they leave even a chance. You said that Gin is not suicidal. Well in order for you to be right, he would have to be. And the BO being this fallible make one wonder how they keep in business so long. Gin is way to careful to let this happen. The only way this could happen is if he wanted it to, and you said else where HE is not trying to bring down the BO. When if you are right, then not only has Gin drop to the level of Vodka as far as smarts, but Gin now has and he must know not just one Bullet but two headed to end the BO. Also while Kir might have been allowed a choice of where to shot the first shot, she had no choice in any other shots. Also why did Kir not remove the Hat on Akai. That would make sure there would be no way to miss and kill him. And if because she wanted him alive, when why did Gin not insisted on it?
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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Abs. »

If things didn't go according to plan, Akai likely would have let himself be killed by Kir anyway.

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Re: Is **SPOILERS** really dead? (491+ discussion)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

sstimson wrote: Ok You did not like hole one. Well her is hole two.
You mean I decided that hole one was irrelevant because you couldn't prove its existence.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: while it is possible they planned for a shooting, What if instead Gin had decided to kill him another way. Were they prepared for every way?
No. I said as much before. I think if the plan went that wrong, Hidemi really would have killed Akai per reasons I explained above. To Akai and Hidemi's credit, they designed the plan so they could have a decent chance of predicting Gin's actions correctly and thus minimizing the chance the plan wouldn't work and Hidemi would have to really kill Akai. 

The rest of your post is irrelevant because it is speculation. Can you prove the poison exists? Nope, so it doesn't count as evidence and therefore I don't care. I hope you will get tired of me saying this because I am really trying to encourage you to switch your arguments to ones entirely based on provable evidence because then more people might seriously consider your theories if you base them on hard evidence.
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