The Truth About the Drug

[sstimson]

I am going to start with a quote from The Body in the Library: A Miss Marple Mystery
By Agatha Christie

"The truth is, you see, that most people - and I don't exclude policeman - are far too trusting for this wicked world.  They believe what is told them. I never do.  I'm afraid I always like to prove a thing for myself."

And so I start anew:

The first thing is this we are told the DRUG kills. But we have never seen it do so. We are told about how the DRUG is suppose to work. And if you are like the "MOST" in the above quote you believe this hook line and sinker.

So Besides Hairaba, Who must know the truth, Has anyone else said that this DRUG kills and if so can you Prove that person used it and it did kill? Also if all they did was say it then, who told them and have they seen it kill?

We know this for a fact. The DRUG WAS TAKEN by Hairaba and Shinichi. This is known by the fact that BOTH reverted to their right ages and we saw it happen. As far as I know, Gin has used it only on one person, Shinichi. Anything else is completely speculation. So as we do not know for a fact the DRUG kills, it becomes likely that Hairaba lied when she said it did. So far she is the only one who said it did. But we need more evidence before we can says that she is telling the truth.

[Kleene Onigiri]

What I can remember:

Haibara said that she tested the drug on rats, and that one rat shrank instead. Not sure if she said that the other rats died or not.

They never tested it on a human before. They wanted to test it on that serial murderer who's name I forgot, but he escaped before they could use it.
The first human that this was tested on was Shinichi who turned into Conan. Gin used it on him in order to kill him without using a gun (because the police was nearby) He said that "this is a new developed drug by the Org that can't be detected in the body" or something similar. So I assume that Gin was told that this drug would kill and that it can't be detected. We don't know who told him that and if that person knew if it was tested or not etc. We don't know if Gin knew more about the drug or not (that it wasn't tested on humans yet for example) It's possible that Gin knew that this drug could fail or that it could shrink someone. Like I said, we don't know it based on manga/anime facts.

Sherry investigated Shinichi and his home after he comsumed the APTX. She noticed that his children cloths were gone but she still marked Kudo Shinichi as "dead". (at least that's what she told Conan)

Haibara said that she took the APTX herself in order to suicide. But she too shrank instead.
We don't know if she lied to Conan or not. She could have taken the APTX knowing that it's not killing but instead shrinking. She could also have taken the APTX and betting on it being either killed or shrinking instead.
But another indicator that she had proof that it's killing rats would be that she felt guilty for developing a drug that kills. So it would mean that some rats did die because of the APTX. But again, Haibara could have lied or wasn't sure herself about the effects of the drug.

[Misztina]

Unless the translation in chapter one is wrong:

Gin: You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff. We haven't tested on humans yet. So this'll be our guinea pig.

When Ai was introduced the whole thing turned upside down a bit, because it looked like as if the poison was tested on several other people who were confirmed dead.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Unless the translation in chapter one is wrong:

Gin: You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff. We haven't tested on humans yet. So this'll be our guinea pig.

Oh, ok xD Didn't check what he really said. Was all based on my memory.

[Abs.]

Unless the translation in chapter one is wrong:

Gin: You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff. We haven't tested on humans yet. So this'll be our guinea pig.

When Ai was introduced the whole thing turned upside down a bit, because it looked like as if the poison was tested on several other people who were confirmed dead.

When Haibara was introduced, some time had passed, and it would have been used on other humans during that time.


The crux of sstimson's argument appears to be:  Directly or indirectly, the only person in the entire manga that has stated that the purpose of the drug was to kill was Haibara.  This includes Gin's statement in File 1 if we assume that Gin only believes such because Haibara told him such.

[sstimson]

"The truth is, you see, that most people - and I don't exclude policeman - are far too trusting for this wicked world.  They believe what is told them. I never do.  I'm afraid I always like to prove a thing for myself."

What I can remember:

Haibara said that she tested the drug on rats, and that one rat shrank instead. Not sure if she said that the other rats died or not.

Read the Above quote again. For true evidence you can not just take ones word for it. She is Biased and would told Conan what she needed for her experiment. Remember he is a

Unless the translation in chapter one is wrong:

Gin: You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff. We haven't tested on humans yet. So this'll be our guinea pig.

When Ai was introduced the whole thing turned upside down a bit, because it looked like as if the poison was tested on several other people who were confirmed dead.

Again based on what she said. We can not just take her word for it. If you are going to say the DRUG kills. Prove It, and not just with Hairaba.

They never tested it on a human before. They wanted to test it on that serial murderer who's name I forgot, but he escaped before they could use it.
The first human that this was tested on was Shinichi who turned into Conan. Gin used it on him in order to kill him without using a gun (because the police was nearby) He said that "this is a new developed drug by the Org that can't be detected in the body" or something similar. So I assume that Gin was told that this drug would kill and that it can't be detected. We don't know who told him that and if that person knew if it was tested or not etc. We don't know if Gin knew more about the drug or not (that it wasn't tested on humans yet for example) It's possible that Gin knew that this drug could fail or that it could shrink someone. Like I said, we don't know it based on manga/anime facts.

If so then it is another BO FAIL. Why would the Org use a UNTESTED DRUG. They could not know for sure if it would kill. It is possible Gin was told the Org had a new poison and it needed testing. so find a guinea pig to test it on.

Sherry investigated Shinichi and his home after he comsumed the APTX. She noticed that his children cloths were gone but she still marked Kudo Shinichi as "dead". (at least that's what she told Conan)

Haibara said that she took the APTX herself in order to suicide. But she too shrank instead.
We don't know if she lied to Conan or not. She could have taken the APTX knowing that it's not killing but instead shrinking. She could also have taken the APTX and betting on it being either killed or shrinking instead.
But another indicator that she had proof that it's killing rats would be that she felt guilty for developing a drug that kills. So it would mean that some rats did die because of the APTX. But again, Haibara could have lied or wasn't sure herself about the effects of the drug.

All this came from Hairaba. I think it likely there may have been only three subjects for the DRUG. As for the mice, it again depends on what the DRUG is really suppose to do. You can not say for a fact it kills.

Unless the translation in chapter one is wrong:

Gin: You can't find any signs of poison on the body with this stuff. We haven't tested on humans yet. So this'll be our guinea pig.

When Ai was introduced the whole thing turned upside down a bit, because it looked like as if the poison was tested on several other people who were confirmed dead.

When Haibara was introduced, some time had passed, and it would have been used on other humans during that time.


The crux of sstimson's argument appears to be:  Directly or indirectly, the only person in the entire manga that has stated that the purpose of the drug was to kill was Haibara.  This includes Gin's statement in File 1 if we assume that Gin only believes such because Haibara told him such.

You got it in one and this raises new questions about the story.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Oh hellow thar misunderstanding.

What I listened in my post are facts what people said to other people. It's like a small summary on the APTX based on what people said in the manga. So it's a fact that Haibara said this and that to Conan. I also said: "We don't know if Haibara lied to Conan or not" or "at least that's what she told conan". So I never said that Haibara tells the truth. I said she could have lied or didn't know it better.
If I wasn't sure about some things, I also said that I'm not sure if it's 100% right. So I said

He said that "this is a new developed drug by the Org that can't be detected in the body" or something similar

I like your theory, that's why I listened that small summary (based on my bad memory XD). So Haibara and Gin could know more or could lie to other people. But there is also no proof based on facts from the manga that they did lie either.

If so then it is another BO FAIL. Why would the Org use a UNTESTED DRUG. They could not know for sure if it would kill. It is possible Gin was told the Org had a new poison and it needed testing. so find a guinea pig to test it on.

He knew Shinichi will be the guinea pig. So testing a untested drug on a human isn't BO fail. Because they did investigate if Shinichi really died  after consuming the drug or not. They didn't find "Shinichi" and it seems they didn't expect him to shrink. According to Haibara, she's the only one that noticed that one rat shrinking. Again, this is according to Haibara. It's possible that she's lying. It's also possible that she doesn't know that someone else noticed that the APTX is shrinking people. The only other people who figured it out are Vermouth and Pisco. Pisco knew it because he saw Haibara. We don't  know how Vermouth figured it out exactly. It's also possible that Gin knows more about the APTX. But there is no concrete evidence that he does know more.

The only fail would be that the BO believes Sherry that Shinichi really died and did not investigate whether she made a false statement or not. But we also don't know if the BO investigated that or not.

[sstimson]

Oh hellow thar misunderstanding.

What I listened in my post are facts what people said to other people. It's like a small summary on the APTX based on what people said in the manga. So it's a fact that Haibara said this and that to Conan. I also said: "We don't know if Haibara lied to Conan or not" or "at least that's what she told conan". So I never said that Haibara tells the truth. I said she could have lied or didn't know it better.
If I wasn't sure about some things, I also said that I'm not sure if it's 100% right. So I said

He said that "this is a new developed drug by the Org that can't be detected in the body" or something similar

I like your theory, that's why I listened that small summary (based on my bad memory XD). So Haibara and Gin could know more or could lie to other people. But there is also no proof based on facts from the manga that they did lie either.

If so then it is another BO FAIL. Why would the Org use a UNTESTED DRUG. They could not know for sure if it would kill. It is possible Gin was told the Org had a new poison and it needed testing. so find a guinea pig to test it on.

He knew Shinichi will be the guinea pig. So testing a untested drug on a human isn't BO fail. Because they did investigate if Shinichi really died  after consuming the drug or not. They didn't find "Shinichi" and it seems they didn't expect him to shrink. According to Haibara, she's the only one that noticed that one rat shrinking. Again, this is according to Haibara. It's possible that she's lying. It's also possible that she doesn't know that someone else noticed that the APTX is shrinking people. The only other people who figured it out are Vermouth and Pisco. Pisco knew it because he saw Haibara. We don't  know how Vermouth figured it out exactly. It's also possible that Gin knows more about the APTX. But there is no concrete evidence that he does know more.

The only fail would be that the BO believes Sherry that Shinichi really died and did not investigate whether she made a false statement or not. But we also don't know if the BO investigated that or not.

The fail i meant is using the drug to KILL. As for Vermouth learning it is like Pisco. Vermouth as Sharon knew the young Shinichi and so could put two and two together.

[Misztina]

The crux of sstimson's argument appears to be:  Directly or indirectly, the only person in the entire manga that has stated that the purpose of the drug was to kill was Haibara.  This includes Gin's statement in File 1 if we assume that Gin only believes such because Haibara told him such.

Oh, I see. Thanks. ^^'

I can see your point and I would welcome some twist in the story-line.

She could have lied, because this is a secret project and it is not wise to gossip around about it. This can mean that even Gin was unaware of the true project of the BO.

The keypoints of BO's aim are:

1. Haibara's quote: "don't rush time, if you do, punishment awaits". Again, she could have lied, but Shinichi also thought that this statement was rather a comment on Ai's project and the BO'S aim, then the actual case.

2. "raise the dead against the stream of time"

3. Software, which shouldn't be finished "for the sake of humanity", it may have connection to the drug

4. A drug that so far turned a 17 year-old into a circa 7 year-old and a circa 20 year-old to a circa 7 year-old.

5. 50 year old project, which now Shinichi is part of:  again according to Haibara, but because she was thinking this, I guess we can count it as truth

[baka1412]

Or it's all could be just Plot-hole made by Aoyama since he clearly stated before that he was not intended the Manga to last this long...

I believe the drug's original property was definitely to kill someone without any trace...

But as the story drags on, and the idea was lagging behind the long lasting story, Gosho made some improvement for the Drug by introducing it as a brand new plot device (Immortality, & Resurrection)

[Nyarl]

Or it's all could be just Plot-hole made by Aoyama since he clearly stated before that he was not intended the Manga to last this long...

I believe the drug's original property was definitely to kill someone without any trace...

But as the story drags on, and the idea was lagging behind the long lasting story, Gosho made some improvement for the Drug by introducing it as a brand new plot device (Immortality, & Resurrection)

Volume 2 already foreshadowed Shiho's existence as Akemi's mysterious sister who was very important person to the Org... I doubt Aoyama didn't also plan her change to Haibara and have an idea about where he was going with the "experimental detective" she was working on when he wrote the files for volume 2.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Just to add stuff to the discussion, we know that Ai suggested the drug was tested on more people after it was used on Shinichi. When Haibara explained that Shinichi's entry was the only unconfirmed one, there was a list of names in the background where the non-Shinichi entries are marked either confirmed or dead. (I forgot the exact word after looking it up once long ago.)

Spoiler:

Also Pisco was told to use the drug if his assassination plot with the chandelier fails, so Gin thinks it kills people at the very least.

[caribou]

i myself don't think that the drug, as first developed by Haibara's parents, was originally intended to kill at all. i'm kind of in the immortality/resurrection camp here, my own opinion is that the drug does kill cells in the body without a trace, possibly hormones that make one age. but in its incomplete form, the drug may end up killing other/vital cells, thus causing death. ANOTHER way is that the drug shrinks body cells - and thus, in a completely science fictionised manga world, makes the body shrink to a younger age as well. But in its incomplete form, the drug shrinks the cells into nothing, hence killing the person.

But: I don't think most of the Org know of the drug's true nature. I don't think Gin knew, I don't know if Haibara herself knew until she saw the results for herself (and, something might have been revealed to her in her mother's tape).

I also can't decide if the Boss knows. i see two possibilities: either he saw and grabbed the Miyanos' research as a way of developing THE perfect poison, or he intended to preserve their original intention and then be the first company in the world to offer youth as a commodity. I like the second possibility better because it's more interesting, but the problem with it is that in THAT case, Haibara should know of the Org's intention from the start. and yet she seemed to have been surprised when that one rat shrank.

[sstimson]

i myself don't think that the drug, as first developed by Haibara's parents, was originally intended to kill at all. i'm kind of in the immortality/resurrection camp here, my own opinion is that the drug does kill cells in the body without a trace, possibly hormones that make one age. but in its incomplete form, the drug may end up killing other/vital cells, thus causing death. ANOTHER way is that the drug shrinks body cells - and thus, in a completely science fictionised manga world, makes the body shrink to a younger age as well. But in its incomplete form, the drug shrinks the cells into nothing, hence killing the person.

But: I don't think most of the Org know of the drug's true nature. I don't think Gin knew, I don't know if Haibara herself knew until she saw the results for herself (and, something might have been revealed to her in her mother's tape).

I also can't decide if the Boss knows. i see two possibilities: either he saw and grabbed the Miyanos' research as a way of developing THE perfect poison, or he intended to preserve their original intention and then be the first company in the world to offer youth as a commodity. I like the second possibility better because it's more interesting, but the problem with it is that in THAT case, Haibara should know of the Org's intention from the start. and yet she seemed to have been surprised when that one rat shrank.

or is a very good little actress! AS for the Drug - I have decided That while the Drug does not kill, its effects might. After all Changing from a older to younger puts a lot of stress on the body that some if not most will not be able to handle.

[kirite]

A note about Gin is that despite being high up in the food chain in the B.O. he doesn't seem to know very much.  At least he doesn't appear to know very much.