A Possible Questionable New theory Hairbaba still Bo?

[Kor]

you're basically saying that the boss can see the exact outcome of certain events and use these outcomes for his plan, but that's impossible. for your theory to succeed, the boss needs to be one of these options:

1) a character that can break the forth wall
2) a character that can predict the future
3) the emperor from Star Wars who foresaw almost everything and his plan worked almost perfectly

Also for your theory to work, the boss can't make any mistake, but that's also impossible. EVERY CHARACTER (whether a hero or a villain) needs to make mistakes. Even Conan makes mistakes....on rare occasions.....very rare occasions.....but he still does.

Actually, I think you don't want to accept that the B.O. makes mistakes and is being threatened by Shinichi.

[Abs.]

People, it's all very simple.  Yuusaku took over the B.O. (from Agasa) shortly after Shinichi got shrank, and is now pulling the strings just to play with his son's mind.  He controls the FBI, CIA, etc. as well, because the FBI and CIA report to the B.O. boss, because the B.O. boss is actually the emperor of the world.  This whole thing was set up so that he can see how long it takes for Shinichi to figure out that his own father is the one behind life, the universe, and everything.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Why would the Boss be a idiot? Why could not this experiment not be done in the wild?

Easy, the boss is an idiot to let Shinichi roam free because it means that Shinichi gets to do all he wants to destroy and expose the B.O. Shinichi is skilled and has already damaged some of the B.O.'s plans and has allied with the FBI and the CIA (although the BO doesn't know that.) Your interpretation about the boss's behavior contradicts with what we know about the boss from the manga: that he prefers not to take chances and prioritizes the secrecy of the Org above the research. (I have a source for that second point if you want it.) It would be out of character for him to let Shinichi wander around freely because there are no benefits.

4) This experiment HAD to be done in the wild. Controlled would not have given the BO the neccessary data.

As a scientist, in this case I can ensure you that number 4 makes no sense. The B.O. wants hard biochemical data on how the drug is effecting his body, they don't want to observe Conan's behavior. If you want hard biochemical data, and you want to do tests and experiments, and most importantly make accurate measurements, it is best to work in a controlled condition in a lab.

For the above two points, in order to resolve the contradiction, please identify specific reasons why the research has to be "done in the wild". ("It wouldn't work in a controlled environment" is an unacceptable answer.)

---

The stuff in the spoiler has already been discussed in the thread earlier.

Spoiler:

Train Case. Again another test, and all parties in on it like the 'victim'. Yes the Bomb did explode, but the question is what would have happened if it was not found in time. The bomb might have only been made to explode by remote control and so there was never any real danger.

This is why I said Occam's razor was important. Please provide evidence that the bomb was actually remote control detonated rather than working exactly how Gin said it would: activated by the cellphone with a ten second countdown. If your theory is true there should be evidence that it is true, otherwise it's a conspiracy theory based on pure speculation..

The Two gunner who shoot at Shinichi MISSED. That Contradiction of 2b.

Please explain. I have no idea what "the Two gunner" means.

The boss is an idiot! His own subordinates tried to kill Shinichi a few times already, so why has he not already ordered them to not kill Conan?
He has or Shinichi would be dead many time over. Again Contradiction of 2b.

We discussed several examples of this already, Pisco for one, Gin for another. Look back over this thread. Remember Occam's razor, all the reasons the B.O. have failed to kill Conan can be explained without invoking a conspiracy that the B.O. knows Conan is Shinichi. Conan escaped because of his own brains, outside help, or pure dumb luck.

Why is the boss doing all the work of investigating Conan himself when he has a whole network of subordinates he can order around to do it for him?  Are you saying that Hairaba is the Boss? She the one doing field research.

What about when before Haibara showed up? Also please refer back to previous posts in this thread where evidence was put forth that the B.O. was actually trying to kill Haibara - not just pretending to try- which doesn't make any sense if she was still loyal. Also remember that Shinichi came to trust her right away, there was no need to try to kill Haibara again and again. Basically Occam's razor on this.

---

And other BO member are brought in as needed for test of Shinichi.
Ever hear of the Xanatos Gambit? I think one of the things is BOSS is doing is playing Speed Chess with Shinichi for likely the same reason KID plays with Shinichi. They need a challenge.

Of course I've heard of those tropes. They don't apply here. The manga has established that the boss is not the Kaito Kid mess-with-your-enemies type. The boss has been characterized as cautious, efficient, and ruthless. The boss does not mess around when getting things done. He prioritizes the secrecy of the Org ahead of the research. If you want to talk in terms of tropes, the boss has read the evil overlord list. If the boss has ever tried to mess with his enemies, please show me the evidence.

Also "test" shinichi? Please. Why do they care about testing Shinichi? It's the drug and Shinichi's physiology they care about. The boss doesn't care how clever Shinichi is, so "testing" Shinichi has no point at all. If you think it does, please explain why the boss cares how Shinichi performs on these various supposed "tests" that have nothing to do with the drug or its effects on Shinichi's body. Remember your explanation should be consistent with the boss's manga personality.

Finally, explain why the boss is allowing Shinichi to wreck with his plans, team up with the FBI and the CIA, and talk about the org to anyone he wants like his father, Heiji, and various other people. Remember the org is supposed to be protecting the secret of its existence. Also explain why Okiya and Rena aren't dead yet since if they are watching Conan, the syndicate should know about their little charade.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Actually, I think you don't want to accept that the B.O. makes mistakes and is being threatened by Shinichi.

Agreed! A very good insight. It cuts to the kor of the issue. /lame pun

Gosho follows classical detective fiction guidelines in his stories. Basically, he gives the reader all the evidence needed, and if the reader is clever enough they can look at it and discover the truth. In the spirit of deductive reasoning, the answer is always the simplest possible solution that can explain all the clues. (That doesn't mean the solution is necessarily simple!) A detective fiction author deeply betrays the readers' trust by allowing a potential solution that explains all the clues to exist, but then snatching it away at the end and forcing upon the readers a more convoluted and unexpected "twist solution" which was never hinted at.
This theory is attempting to impose a more convoluted "twist solution" on DC, which violates detective fiction principles. So far all the facts point to the B.O. not knowing Conan's identity and nothing has occurred so far that cannot be adequately explained by this theory. The whole point of detective fiction is to invite the readers to use a logical and rational approach. After making them do all the work to craft a theory, the author tossing the rational solution out the window in favor of a solution which can only be anticipated by irrational suspicions-with-no-evidence conspiracy is cruel. So I don't think that will happen.

[sstimson]

To save the disagreements on other things and ask question about think that seem to disagree with your below

Before I begin let's make several reasonable assumptions which are all supported by canon material:
1) The boss is not an idiot. He is very cautious as Vermouth stated. Therefore he would not be reckless and make decisions where the risks outweigh the benefits. The boss would also not do things that have no meaning or purpose.
2) The organization’s MO is one that tries to maintain the Org’s secrecy: leave as little evidence behind as possible (or get rid of all witnesses), use methods which minimize the chance of failure, and don't allow situations that would publicly reveal them.
3) The organization does not want to destroy itself. (Vermouth excluded)

This is the Train Case: Chapter 33 Page 13

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

To me a bomb seems like overkill. This seem to disagree with 2a as a train bombed would bring a lot of investigation like who was on the train, who got off where etc. It also seem to disagree with 3 at least Gin and Vodka possibly getting killed cause while the person involved might be able to not do anything stupid with the bomb case, try to image what would have happened if the children on the train decided to play soccer with that case. Also Why Blow up the train? Why not just have their victim just set off the bomb at their home thus putting more distance between the BO and the place where the Bomb will go off? This might also disagree with 2d.

[Abs.]

try to image what would have happened if the detective boys decided to play soccer with that case.

Someone needs to get their canon straight, as the detective boys were not on the train during this case.  Contrary to what the anime will tell you.

[sstimson]

try to image what would have happened if the children on the train decided to play soccer with that case.

Someone needs to get their canon straight, as the detective boys were not on the train during this case.  Contrary to what the anime will tell you.

Fixed. But as this panel shows there were kids on that train

Spoiler:

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

try to image what would have happened if the children on the train decided to play soccer with that case.

Someone needs to get their canon straight, as the detective boys were not on the train during this case.  Contrary to what the anime will tell you.

Fixed. But as this panel shows there were kids on that train

Spoiler:

I think blowing up a train is overkill too, but it certainly does the job of eliminating witnesses and getting rid of the target. As long as it isn't underkill... Note that on that very same page, Vodka worries about accidentally setting off the case like you do, and Gin explicitly comments that the exchangee will be very careful with that case because it was received at great cost.

In any case, before you get too wrapped up in a minor point like this, you should address and provide evidence for the major contradictions:
1) What benefit is there that justifies the risks of getting exposed when the boss is purposefully letting Shinichi run around and make trouble for the BO, team up with the FBI and the CIA, and discuss the org with other people like Heiji, Yuusaku, and the police.
2) Why the research has to be "done in the wild" when controlled lab conditions would be better universally.  ("It wouldn't work in a controlled environment" is an unacceptable answer. Why wouldn't it work?)
3) Why the boss cares how Shinichi performs on various supposed "tests" as you called them that have nothing to do with the drug or its effects on Shinichi's body - while keeping the boss in character.
4) If Shinichi is a valuable test subject, why are they letting him run into cases where he nearly gets killed all the time?
5) Why is the boss allowing his own subordinates to nearly kill Shinichi - as in Pisco, whose bullets we know are real and who shot at the sound of Conan's voice thinking he was there, and Gin who left an exploding briefcase on a train with Shinichi, and Chianti and Korn whom Gin ordered to kill Shinichi.
6) Why is the Org allowing Conan to run into their agents and syndicate missions at all? It doesn't help things since Conan will be bound to interfere. And when Conan is trying mess with the mission, why aren't they compensating or coming up with new plans knowing he is interfering?
7) Why has B.O. actually been trying to kill or ordering someone to kill Haibara more than once -not just pretending to try- which doesn't make any sense if she was still loyal? Also remember that Shinichi came to trust her right away, there was no need to try to threaten Haibara multiple times.
8 ) How can the boss, Gin, Haibara, and the rest of the agents somehow predict all of Shinichi's actions perfectly - even his mistakes and various unpredictable coincidences, unless the Org can control all of Conan's friends, the FBI, the police, everyone in Japan, and has literally paved every meter of Tokyo with bugs and listening devices which somehow the ultraobservent Shinichi has always missed?

[soratothamax]

I remember Abs. had info to suggest that Chris had shown up in front of people before Sharon died. Abs. might have more to say, but it sounds like Chris did give interviews to reporters before Sharon died:

Spoiler:

Ahahahaha I forgot to reply to this thread.  Anyhoo, let's look at Volume 35, File 1:

Spoiler:

Even with that translation ("Far different from my daughter Chris...  Without a trouble she became a successful actress on my coattails..."), it is clear to me that one needs to appear before some people, at least, in order to become a successful actress.

Here's mine:
ç§

[sstimson]

Before I begin let's make several reasonable assumptions which are all supported by canon material:
1) The boss is not an idiot. He is very cautious as Vermouth stated. Therefore he would not be reckless and make decisions where the risks outweigh the benefits. The boss would also not do things that have no meaning or purpose.
2) The organization’s MO is one that tries to maintain the Org’s secrecy: leave as little evidence behind as possible (or get rid of all witnesses), use methods which minimize the chance of failure, and don't allow situations that would publicly reveal them.
3) The organization does not want to destroy itself. (Vermouth excluded)

3) Why the boss cares how Shinichi performs on various supposed "tests" as you called them that have nothing to do with the drug or its effects on Shinichi's body - while keeping the boss in character.

Ok, unfortunately more theory time, this about what might be the real goals of the BO and again it unprovable.

If the KID org and the BO are one in the same then this theory would make sense. They want a Gem who 'tears' grant immortality As the current drug for a few select few does make one younger, this would be a step towards that goal. Now if we assume that to them the quality of life is very important, then they need to make sure this drug side effects if any, would not cause a worse quality of life then if they did not take the drug. This means that the drug can not cause the taker to be forever sick, or forever dumb. With Conan Dumb luck, a side effect of this drug might be a reality modifier. Vermouth would be the one in the controlled environment for their test as I believe that she took the Drug. I am not saying the Drug does change Reality, but for shrinking, but it could.This might explain how conan stays alive when other characters would have died.

Spoiler:

The case where he was stabbed but saved by heiji charm.
The case where he was in the cave and got shot bad. "Lucky" Ran at the time knew who he was and could help.
Akai shooting at Gin at just the right time.
Ran not being killed by other Bo members while protecting Hairaba.
Heiji being found after being pushed off a ship by the killer.
The Train case where in a 15 of a second the bomb allows itself to be kicked without exploding then and there.

Do you need more examples about how this might work?

[soratothamax]

Another question: How did Akai get into the Organization so fast? I know he got to know Akemi, but so what? He became Akemi's boyfriend, and so could now be a part of the BO? How does one become a part of the BO? Do they have to talk to the Boss? Or do they go straight up to Gin and ask? Do they go to a facility and sign a few papers? Or does a member just bring them in and ask for them to join? 

[kkslider5552000]

I like how far sstimson has gone to defend a "Possible QUESTIONABLE" theory

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Ok, unfortunately more theory time, this about what might be the real goals of the BO and again it unprovable.

If the KID org and the BO are one in the same then this theory would make sense. They want a Gem who 'tears' grant immortality As the current drug for a few select few does make one younger, this would be a step towards that goal. Now if we assume that to them the quality of life is very important, then they need to make sure this drug side effects if any, would not cause a worse quality of life then if they did not take the drug. This means that the drug can not cause the taker to be forever sick, or forever dumb. With Conan Dumb luck, a side effect of this drug might be a reality modifier. Vermouth would be the one in the controlled environment for their test as I believe that she took the Drug. I am not saying the Drug does change Reality, but for shrinking, but it could.This might explain how conan stays alive when other characters would have died.

Spoiler:

The case where he was stabbed but saved by heiji charm.
The case where he was in the cave and got shot bad. "Lucky" Ran at the time knew who he was and could help.
Akai shooting at Gin at just the right time.
Ran not being killed by other Bo members while protecting Hairaba.
Heiji being found after being pushed off a ship by the killer.
The Train case where in a 15 of a second the bomb allows itself to be kicked without exploding then and there.

Do you need more examples about how this might work?

Well, the Word of Gosho has decreed the Magic Kaito and the DC men in black are not the same. Other than that, your theory here sounds a lot like the plot of Bleach. If you think DC is a mind screw manga, then pretty much anything can go. I don't think DC is a mind screw manga, but I already explained that above, so I won't rehash.

I'm also not a fan of Vermouth took shrinking pill theory...otherwise she would've known about Sherry and Conan a long time ago, and would've killed Sherry even before Sherry made it to Conan's house when she escaped. In fact, Vermouth would've really suspected that Shinichi was alive.

Vermouth I think knew right off the bat Shinichi was Conan as soon as she saw him at the memorial party. When Sherry first escaped, Vermouth was in America I'm pretty sure. I think you're right that she would have gone and nabbed Ai straight away, but Vermouth had to revise her plan because she found out Shinichi was with Shiho and the FBI were lurking about. She then switched her goal to locating all the FBI agents and also separating Shinichi and Shiho to spare Shinichi.

Another question: How did Akai get into the Organization so fast? I know he got to know Akemi, but so what? He became Akemi's boyfriend, and so could now be a part of the BO? How does one become a part of the BO? Do they have to talk to the Boss? Or do they go straight up to Gin and ask? Do they go to a facility and sign a few papers? Or does a member just bring them in and ask for them to join? 

Probably the same way anyone gets into a life of crime in the real world. I don't really know as I am not a criminal, but I bet reading biographies of someone in the mafia might explain something.

[sstimson]

Ok But the Drug thing by it self is a Mind Screw. Also as You and I mentioned before Blanks CAN kill. A lot the the murder ways alao would not work in real life. So if it is not a Mind Screw Manga, then why does it keeping breaking the rules?

[sstimson]

Another question: How did Akai get into the Organization so fast? I know he got to know Akemi, but so what? He became Akemi's boyfriend, and so could now be a part of the BO? How does one become a part of the BO? Do they have to talk to the Boss? Or do they go straight up to Gin and ask? Do they go to a facility and sign a few papers? Or does a member just bring them in and ask for them to join? 

I had a theory about that ( Yes it is that word again ) They might go to the BO and offer to be MOLES.