Political Discussion Topic

[Callid]

As you might have read, I live in Germany and therefore do not watch any American news station (Al Gore was first mentioned around the 900^th lesson, btw).
Of course you can simply deny any figure and every statistic that does say that there's a global warming, but if, as you said, the earth is cooling down, then how do you explain the shrinking of pole ice and other glaciers around the world? Or do you just want to tell me that the earth is getting cooler, but the mountains are getting wormer? And how do explain the increase of forest fires (just to stay to the topics where facts can't be denied)?
It may be that some figures of A.G. were exaggerated (although I doubt that), but global warming does definitely take place and its developments are terrifying and will probably be a danger to humanity in 50 years.
Why do you think all of the states (except for the USA of course) signed at Kyoto? Why do you think all parties in Germany agree about the danger of global warming? Why do you think all those states are that worried about global warming if it doesn't exist? Are all those politicians of about 200 states of the world blinded - by one party from the USA?
Do you really believe that?

Let's tackle this one by one
1. The polar ice caps: the polar ice caps are BLOCK OF ICE submerged in water, go home, get a big container, fill it up with water, freeze it, then put the big block of ice in freezing cold water, it may not melt right away but it WILL MELT that's what happens when ice is submerged in anything, it's going to melt
2:Increase in forest fires: you can attribute that to 2 things, stupidity, and local climate, most forest fires are caused by man, which throws 1/2 of your argument out of the window, the other half is caused by local things like humidity and dry brush, by your theory since it's "Global" warming, forest fires should be erupting all across the globe but at least here in the U.S you only see forest fires in California and that's because those morons won't get rid of all that dry brush
and to conclude this whole global warming thing is just a big scam made to find an excuse to tax companies and businesses, the entire world is jumping on board for one reason, what government wouldn't want to find another crappy excuse to tax people

1.
If it is that way, why are they still there? They had millions of years to melt away, but we are still able to see them. The effect does also account for any glaciers in the mountains, how do you explain this? And, as you might not now, the bulk of Antarctic ice is on solid ground. After all the Antarctic is the seventh continent, don't forget this. And a lot of the polar ice is located in Greenland, also solid ground, but is melting as well!
And, by the way, if the temperatures are below zero, ice located in water won't melt to a certain deep but instead the water will freeze (that is what happens to every small lake or puddle in the winter). The reason why water does not completely freeze is just because water at 4°C is heavier then water at 1°C, so the water of 4°C sinks to the ground while only the upper parts of the sea freeze (or do you want do deny physics now?).

2.
Of course there have to be two things getting together to form a forest fire (ff): a dry forest and a high temperature. And of course ff can't develop where one of them is missing. So we will never have ff in Scandinavia or in the desert, and also we will not have dangerous ones in total humid areas (you know what humid means? If not, look it up in Wikipedia...), but if we concentrate on the areas remaining, we will recognize that surprisingly many emerge, much more than usual. If you, for example, concentrate on Spain or Greek, you will realize that the number, endangerment and area covered have all risen.
And, by the way, the greatest wildfire in the USA between 1997 and 2007 was in Alaska, 2004.

And the last one is almost funny. Germany has almost no taxes on pollution yet, but spends 1,5 billion Euros (so about 2 billion dollars) in environment protection. So the greenhouse effect means a loss to the state of Germany, not a win.

[hakkaino7]

I'm still waiting for Chaosangel to say that physics is also a scam...  :o

...
And, by the way, the greatest wildfire in the USA between 1997 and 2007 was in Alaska, 1994.
...

yeah... right...

Spoiler:

wait.. did I just diss both sides?  ???

Oh and btw... I also think global warming, or if not some other thing-that's-going-to-ruin-the-earth that is caused-by-human-which-uses-up-and/or-destroys-most-resources-here-on-earth is true.

If you want to think that it's all a scam by al gore then do so... but don't go acting like
"Wee I'm burning plastics and rubber and littering and doing things that will cause that global warming thing made up by al gore... it's okay since its all a scam and my grandchildren won't suffer because of it"

[Kor]

Obama is really a great presindent much better than a portuguese prime minister José Socrates in one of the speaches he said
"Para uma país mais justo, para um país mais pobre"
Translation: "For a fairer country, for a poorer country"

What prime minister says this about his country.

Obama is no better, going around and apologizing for the U.S, calling us arrogant and everything

The rest of the world thinks that way(me too^^), so it's perhaps not a bad idea...
And if that's bad, Germany has to have terrible presidents for 60 years now. Every one of them complained about our own faults in history, can you imagine that?

I know of another country that complains about germany's out faults in history every year (though I don't know if you are referring to the same thing)  ::) though I despise that because usually I see it as something against the germans. If I wasn't a half german, maybe I wouldn't think that way. In the "holocaust day" (as we call it) it's the same thing every year (in my high school years I've already had enough from it, especially since we learned the same thing in our history classes) they just say "the nazis did this and the nazis did that" since you are a child, without even thinking for a moment that little kids can't understand the whole thing throughly and so, these kids grow up with the thinking that they should hate the germans. Because of my german heritage I was called nazi on occasions. It beats me how far it can go, but it's a proof that something just isn't right about the way that they teach about the nazis.
More to say, once in a kids' program in the kids' channel, someone said "those cursed germans." and I was like "DON'T YOU MEAN NAZIS??? WHY TO INCLUDE ALL OF THEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME OF THEM ARE JEWISH LIKE YOU!!!"
And not only then, but in history class I sometimes found myself fighting against the teacher about other related things...
I like Germany much more than I like Israel. Which is odd, I've been living in Israel almost all my life yet I can't appreciate this country, its army, its education and many other things...

Regarding our president (not much of a job since the prime minister is more important), he is very very very very old. last year in my senior year, he came to the city and lectured for an hour or so and he just kept talking on and on and on and on. He was saying things like "don't listen to your teachers, don't listen to your parents, do what you think..." and I thought that it suppose to be the opposite. I'm sure he meant that each one of us should have his own opinion, but shouldn't we listen to those who know better than us regarding life? (It's a guy who spent all his life as a politician and attempts many times to be a prime minister, after our last president made a little crime (think the israeli version of Klinton), that guy became the president...)

[Akonyl]

Let's tackle this one by one
1. The polar ice caps: the polar ice caps are BLOCK OF ICE submerged in water, go home, get a big container, fill it up with water, freeze it, then put the big block of ice in freezing cold water, it may not melt right away but it WILL MELT that's what happens when ice is submerged in anything, it's going to melt
2:Increase in forest fires: you can attribute that to 2 things, stupidity, and local climate, most forest fires are caused by man, which throws 1/2 of your argument out of the window, the other half is caused by local things like humidity and dry brush, by your theory since it's "Global" warming, forest fires should be erupting all across the globe but at least here in the U.S you only see forest fires in California and that's because those morons won't get rid of all that dry brush
and to conclude this whole global warming thing is just a big scam made to find an excuse to tax companies and businesses, the entire world is jumping on board for one reason, what government wouldn't want to find another crappy excuse to tax people

oh gee I can't believe you just said that.
1) why yes, ice will melt in a cup in your house, good job on that bit of science. But it's not because water melts ice, it's because your house isn't freezing cold. I assure you that an ice cube will melt regardless of whether or not it's in water. Considering that the polar ice caps have been around for millions of years, it's safe to say that they don't melt much, due to the overall temperature in polar regions being sub-freezing. For the melting of the icecaps at this rate to be "normal", the icecaps would have had to been placed there sometime recently, which fyi, they weren't.
2) yes, people do create some forest fires, but most of the ones that people end up worrying about are caused by nature. If it was started by man, there's a very high chance it would be caught early and not be a problem, the big problems arise when a fire starts in the wilderness and gets to unmanageable sizes before it's spotted. And no, fires should not be erupting all across the globe, because many places that are hot are also more humid. Just because the warming is global doesn't mean that every place on earth has become so hot and dry as to be a good climate for wildfires. Also, saying that California is a bunch of morons for "not clearing out all the dry brush" is a pretty moronic statement on its own. You can't just clear out the forests and call it a day.

Whether global warming is happening or not isn't really up for debate. What is up for debate is whether it's mostly caused by man or not (although I believe a large part is, I can't definitively prove that). Also, don't discount the "1/4 of a degree" that you say people might account for. We are the human race, we've been everywhere on this earth in all ranges of temperatures, we're basically the definition of versatile. Many species, especially cold-blooded and aquatic ones, don't have anywhere near the versatility we do and 1/4 matters a lot to them.

[Key-chan]

its amazing how my post about the noble prize led to the discussion about global warming 

It is. But then again, we just all love to talk about how the world is doomed, don't we? It's only human nature

XDDD

[bluekaitou1412]

its amazing how my post about the noble prize led to the discussion about global warming 

It is. But then again, we just all love to talk about how the world is doomed, don't we? It's only human nature

XDDD

Doom topic is exciting.

[Callid]

I'm still waiting for Chaosangel to say that physics is also a scam... 

...
And, by the way, the greatest wildfire in the USA between 1997 and 2007 was in Alaska, 1994.
...

yeah... right...

Spoiler:

wait.. did I just diss both sides? 

Oh and btw... I also think global warming, or if not some other thing-that's-going-to-ruin-the-earth that is caused-by-human-which-uses-up-and/or-destroys-most-resources-here-on-earth is true.

If you want to think that it's all a scam by al gore then do so... but don't go acting like
"Wee I'm burning plastics and rubber and littering and doing things that will cause that global warming thing made up by al gore... it's okay since its all a scam and my grandchildren won't suffer because of it"

I corrected it. It was 2004 of course. By the way the fire is named Taylor Complex Fire. And of course it's on Wikipedia^^

[see above]

oh gee I can't believe you just said that.
1) why yes, ice will melt in a cup in your house, good job on that bit of science. But it's not because water melts ice, it's because your house isn't freezing cold. I assure you that an ice cube will melt regardless of whether or not it's in water. Considering that the polar ice caps have been around for millions of years, it's safe to say that they don't melt much, due to the overall temperature in polar regions being sub-freezing. For the melting of the icecaps at this rate to be "normal", the icecaps would have had to been placed there sometime recently, which fyi, they weren't.
2) yes, people do create some forest fires, but most of the ones that people end up worrying about are caused by nature. If it was started by man, there's a very high chance it would be caught early and not be a problem, the big problems arise when a fire starts in the wilderness and gets to unmanageable sizes before it's spotted. And no, fires should not be erupting all across the globe, because many places that are hot are also more humid. Just because the warming is global doesn't mean that every place on earth has become so hot and dry as to be a good climate for wildfires. Also, saying that California is a bunch of morons for "not clearing out all the dry brush" is a pretty moronic statement on its own. You can't just clear out the forests and call it a day.

Whether global warming is happening or not isn't really up for debate. What is up for debate is whether it's mostly caused by man or not (although I believe a large part is, I can't definitively prove that). Also, don't discount the "1/4 of a degree" that you say people might account for. We are the human race, we've been everywhere on this earth in all ranges of temperatures, we're basically the definition of versatile. Many species, especially cold-blooded and aquatic ones, don't have anywhere near the versatility we do and 1/4 matters a lot to them.

You said almost the same way I did. It seems we totally agree about it. That about the quarter of a degree (°F or °C, by the way?) is also very true (yes, I forgot that. After all, it was 1:00 Army Time in my time zone when I was writing that post...). If you do live in the USA I'm very relieved. If people like you exist there, then there's still hope for this world (just to stress that doom thing everyone is so happy about^^).

I know of another country that complains about germany's out faults in history every year (though I don't know if you are referring to the same thing)  though I despise that because usually I see it as something against the germans. If I wasn't a half german, maybe I wouldn't think that way. In the "holocaust day" (as we call it) it's the same thing every year (in my high school years I've already had enough from it, especially since we learned the same thing in our history classes) they just say "the nazis did this and the nazis did that" since you are a child, without even thinking for a moment that little kids can't understand the whole thing throughly and so, these kids grow up with the thinking that they should hate the germans. Because of my german heritage I was called nazi on occasions. It beats me how far it can go, but it's a proof that something just isn't right about the way that they teach about the nazis.
More to say, once in a kids' program in the kids' channel, someone said "those cursed germans." and I was like "DON'T YOU MEAN NAZIS??? WHY TO INCLUDE ALL OF THEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME OF THEM ARE JEWISH LIKE YOU!!!"
And not only then, but in history class I sometimes found myself fighting against the teacher about other related things...
I like Germany much more than I like Israel. Which is odd, I've been living in Israel almost all my life yet I can't appreciate this country, its army, its education and many other things...

Regarding our president (not much of a job since the prime minister is more important), he is very very very very old. last year in my senior year, he came to the city and lectured for an hour or so and he just kept talking on and on and on and on. He was saying things like "don't listen to your teachers, don't listen to your parents, do what you think..." and I thought that it suppose to be the opposite. I'm sure he meant that each one of us should have his own opinion, but shouldn't we listen to those who know better than us regarding life? (It's a guy who spent all his life as a politician and attempts many times to be a prime minister, after our last president made a little crime (think the israeli version of Klinton), that guy became the president...)

I was just proofing wrong that a president that is not denying (or even pointing towards) the faults of his own country in history is not bad president (most likely it's just the other way around). Isreal may think that the Germans are evil. That's nothing to surprise me (actually I wanted to use a special German verb here (jmd. etwas nicht verdenken können), but there is no English equivalent).
But of course it's not right to extend that to all German, especially those of nowadays, because Germany is now very contra-antisemitism, much more than any other nation. For example the Federal Bank Director was fired a few days ago because he talked about "headscarf girls" in a speech about the lacking will of immigrants to integrate in society.
You do not face any problems when you take a very liberal, progressive, left (do you say so in English as well?) position, but if you choose the other side, you mustn't go any further than the middle of the political spectrum* (that would be the democrats in the USA) or you may have to fear for your job (especially if you say something aloud in publicity and are of a high office, just like in the example above), as long as you're of German origin. If you aren't (or are Jewish), you mustn't fear anything, of course.

* I'm referring to the political spectrum in most countries of the world. The German political spectrum ends at this point, of course (accounting only electable parties).

[Vylash]

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

[Akonyl]

You said almost the same way I did. It seems we totally agree about it. That about the quarter of a degree (°F or °C, by the way?) is also very true (yes, I forgot that. After all, it was 1:00 Army Time in my time zone when I was writing that post...). If you do live in the USA I'm very relieved. If people like you exist there, then there's still hope for this world (just to stress that doom thing everyone is so happy about^^).

I was referring to F, as I'm guessing that's what chaosangel was referring to, as I don't have the figures myself. And yeah, I'm in the USA, so maybe the world won't spontaneously explode just yet.

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

it's pretty easy to slap the label of "cult" on things you don't like. Yeah, there are super hippies who are admittedly pretty weird, but that doesn't mean that the message they're pushing is necessarily bad.

As to "replacing God with the earth"... I don't exactly want to turn this into a religious topic too, so I'll just say: We need to take care of the Earth more than we have to take care of God. I think he's doing pretty well.

[Vylash]

You said almost the same way I did. It seems we totally agree about it. That about the quarter of a degree (°F or °C, by the way?) is also very true (yes, I forgot that. After all, it was 1:00 Army Time in my time zone when I was writing that post...). If you do live in the USA I'm very relieved. If people like you exist there, then there's still hope for this world (just to stress that doom thing everyone is so happy about^^).

I was referring to F, as I'm guessing that's what chaosangel was referring to, as I don't have the figures myself. And yeah, I'm in the USA, so maybe the world won't spontaneously explode just yet.

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

it's pretty easy to slap the label of "cult" on things you don't like. Yeah, there are super hippies who are admittedly pretty weird, but that doesn't mean that the message they're pushing is necessarily bad.

As to "replacing God with the earth"... I don't exactly want to turn this into a religious topic too, so I'll just say: We need to take care of the Earth more than we have to take care of God. I think he's doing pretty well.

When you see people changing their entire lifestyle, (giving up toilet paper, putting farmers out of work, trying to push their agenda on everyone) there are some people who just want to protect the earth, but when you see environmental terrorists who threaten people with violence if they use too much water (especially in my state) it's pretty hard to deny that something is wrong there

[Akonyl]

You said almost the same way I did. It seems we totally agree about it. That about the quarter of a degree (°F or °C, by the way?) is also very true (yes, I forgot that. After all, it was 1:00 Army Time in my time zone when I was writing that post...). If you do live in the USA I'm very relieved. If people like you exist there, then there's still hope for this world (just to stress that doom thing everyone is so happy about^^).

I was referring to F, as I'm guessing that's what chaosangel was referring to, as I don't have the figures myself. And yeah, I'm in the USA, so maybe the world won't spontaneously explode just yet.

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

it's pretty easy to slap the label of "cult" on things you don't like. Yeah, there are super hippies who are admittedly pretty weird, but that doesn't mean that the message they're pushing is necessarily bad.

As to "replacing God with the earth"... I don't exactly want to turn this into a religious topic too, so I'll just say: We need to take care of the Earth more than we have to take care of God. I think he's doing pretty well.

When you see people changing their entire lifestyle, (giving up toilet paper, putting farmers out of work, trying to push their agenda on everyone) there are some people who just want to protect the earth, but when you see environmental terrorists who threaten people with violence if they use too much water (especially in my state) it's pretty hard to deny that something is wrong there

well yeah, ecoterrorists are bad people, but that's less the fault of the green movement than their complete insanity. I mean, the majority of terrorists use religion and righteousness as a justification for their actions ( 9/11 and such), and religion has been used countless times in history to justify massacres, but I don't think that means that religion is inherently evil. The whole changing of lifestyle and pushing of agendas is done by religious people too, so I can see what you mean by replacing God with the Earth, but I fail to see why this is somehow more wrong when done for the earth than when done for God (if in fact that's what you were trying to say, if not then nevermind).

[Kor]

Isreal may think that the Germans are evil.

Israel in a whole, would never think that germany is evil...they have too much to lose from thinking that way  besides, Germany is better than Israel...

But of course it's not right to extend that to all German, especially those of nowadays, because Germany is now very contra-antisemitism.

I know that and you know that, the problem is that they know that but still decide to tell the "story" like germany is the villain and make little kids think that germans are evil people.
I usually don't befriend with people with such an opinion on germany, but I do have a friend who swore to never go to germany (even though last summer he did, but not because he changed his opinion.  ) this is how the conversation goes with him.
me: why won't you go to germany?
him: because they were responsible for the holocaust
me: the nazis were responsible for the holocaust
him: and the nazis were german
me: you know that there are no longer nazis, right?
him: yes
me: then why won't you ever go there?
him: because their not good people
me: and what have they ever done to you?
him: nothing, but because of them there was the holocaust.

it's like talking to a wall. He is a smart person, but yet he doesn't want to realize that the germans of now or not the germans of "then". The only friends I have from germany aren't even jewish and they are good people and fun to be with of course...
So if a smart person feels that way, there's something awfully wrong with the way they teach about the holocaust (at least in the early grades) and some Israeli steriotype parents who can't think for themselves and teach their children that everybody hates us.
When my german grandmother will die and I'll inherit her two apartments in munich and all her money, I'm moving the hell out of here! (I can open to discussion why I don't like my grandmother but it's pretty boring...)

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

Since god doesn't exist and earth does exist (I have proof!!!) I think it is better to take care of the earth than taking care of god... *hides from religious people*

[Kor]

Isreal may think that the Germans are evil.

Israel in a whole, would never think that germany is evil...they have too much to lose from thinking that way  ;D besides, Germany is better than Israel...

But of course it's not right to extend that to all German, especially those of nowadays, because Germany is now very contra-antisemitism.

I know that and you know that, the problem is that they know that but still decide to tell the "story" like germany is the villain and make little kids think that germans are evil people.
I usually don't befriend with people with such an opinion on germany, but I do have a friend who swore to never go to germany (even though last summer he did, but not because he changed his opinion.  :-\) this is how the conversation goes with him.
me: why won't you go to germany?
him: because they were responsible for the holocaust
me: the nazis were responsible for the holocaust
him: and the nazis were german
me: you know that there are no longer nazis, right?
him: yes
me: then why won't you ever go there?
him: because their not good people
me: and what have they ever done to you?
him: nothing, but because of them there was the holocaust.

it's like talking to a wall. He is a smart person, but yet he doesn't want to realize that the germans of now or not the germans of "then". The only friends I have from germany aren't even jewish and they are good people and fun to be with of course...
So if a smart person feels that way, there's something awfully wrong with the way they teach about the holocaust (at least in the early grades) and some Israeli steriotype parents who can't think for themselves and teach their children that everybody hates us.
When my german grandmother will die and I'll inherit her two apartments in munich and all her money, I'm moving the hell out of here! (I can open to discussion why I don't like my grandmother but it's pretty boring...)

It seems to me that this whole "green movement" has become a cult or a religion, at least in my country you actually have people trying to replace God with the earth, i'm all for conserving water, energy, and electricity, but when the government starts telling me how much water and electricity i can use and then taxing me if i go over (that's essentialy what cap and trade is) that's where i have a problem

Since god doesn't exist and earth does exist (I have proof!!!) I think it is better to take care of the earth than taking care of god... *hides from religious people*

You moron!

it was just a joke...I should have put smilies to clarify that...
I say these things like 10 times a day but I guess that I forget that there are people who are sensitive about such things.

[Vylash]

You moron! you have to put smilies so people know it's a joke! 

[Kor]

You moron! you have to put smilies so people know it's a joke! 

I agree on that one