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We all know Sharon/Chris Vineyard took the Apotoxin 4869, but isn't that supposed to kill people? So was Vermouth supposed to die or something? Or did she know that it reduced your age and just took a risk?

TheMagic wrote: We all know Sharon/Chris Vineyard took the Apotoxin 4869

No we don't. So far it's only a theory since nothing was said about that yet. (like any other sub plot that was ever in Detective Conan  )

As far as we can tell, she could also have gathered the dragon balls and wished to become younger.  8)

"We all know..." ?

Unless I really missed something, we haven't gotten any explanation for Vermouth's appearance. I have my own crazy theory about that, anyway.

And besides, Gin says that it's the first time it was used on humans when he gives it to Shinichi. I know there are a lot of backers for this theory, but (unless I missed something big) we don't have any proof of it.

Redmage wrote: And besides, Gin says that it's the first time it was used on humans when he gives it to Shinichi. I know there are a lot of backers for this theory, but (unless I missed something big) we don't have any proof of it.

Gin also said that Sherry and Kogoro work together 
Gin doesn't know everything and he thinks it's just a poison that should kill people and it doesn't look like he is aware of the side effects of the drug.

Redmage wrote: "We all know..." ?

Unless I really missed something, we haven't gotten any explanation for Vermouth's appearance. I have my own crazy theory about that, anyway.

And besides, Gin says that it's the first time it was used on humans when he gives it to Shinichi. I know there are a lot of backers for this theory, but (unless I missed something big) we don't have any proof of it.

There's no proof that she took it, and in fact it's nearly impossible since Ai had only recently created it, thus even if she had taken it and survived she'd be a child too; and no, you're not the only one with that crazy theory. I think she used the Pandora too, although I turned my crazy theory into a 90-chapter fanfic with a 21-chapter sidefic If you're not intending to read it or have read it, the summary is thus:
Long story short, she didn't take the Apoptoxin. She couldn't have.

mangaluva wrote:

Redmage wrote: "We all know..." ?

Unless I really missed something, we haven't gotten any explanation for Vermouth's appearance. I have my own crazy theory about that, anyway.

And besides, Gin says that it's the first time it was used on humans when he gives it to Shinichi. I know there are a lot of backers for this theory, but (unless I missed something big) we don't have any proof of it.

There's no proof that she took it, and in fact it's nearly impossible since Ai had only recently created it, thus even if she had taken it and survived she'd be a child too; and no, you're not the only one with that crazy theory. I think she used the Pandora too, although I turned my crazy theory into a 90-chapter fanfic with a 21-chapter sidefic If you're not intending to read it or have read it, the summary is thus:

Spoiler:

The Pandora legend could not have survived on its own for ten thousand years. There were no written records ten thousand years ago, and it could never have survived accurately as an oral tradition- the Christian Bible is a prime example of how warped stories can grow when passed along as an oral tradition. However, if someone had found the Pandora legend ten thousand years ago and gained immortality, they could keep the legend intact by repeating it as an eyewitness. Vermouth and Anokata were the ancient tribespeople who discovered Pandora and acheived immortality; ten thousand years later, Anokata is a criminal master of the world but Vermouth is resenting her long life and the evil he propagates. They lost the Pandora a long time ago and he intends to find it so that his immortality can be sustained; she wants it destroyed so that they can die.

Hence her unaging and status as Anokata's favourite.

Long story short, she didn't take the Apoptoxin. She couldn't have.

to be fair, I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the apoptoxin that says "turns you into a 5 year old", it just causes a large amount of de-aging and conan/shiho happened to be around the same age when they took it. So if Vermy took it, she could just turn somewhat younger perhaps.

Although I'm just more of a fan of the idea that she just ages well + maybe got plastic surgery, who knows.

Akonyl wrote: Although I'm just more of a fan of the idea that she just ages well + maybe got plastic surgery, who knows.

Why, it is so obvious! She's an american actress, they ALL get plastic surgery.

Akonyl wrote: So if Vermy took it, she could just turn somewhat younger perhaps.

did you just give a cute nickname to an assassin  :o

hey now, assassins need love too

Let me make a list of my thoughts on this subject...

1) No evidence suggests that Vermouth took APTX, though I believe she did.

2) APTX was in development probably before Shiho. She just "completed" it. Remember... there is rarely if ever just a single person working in a lab. Usually a team works on a drug. So she was just part of the team, which is why they have tons and tons of data on it. Consider this... IF Shiho was the only person working on it... she would be able to remember key elements and reconstruct her research in a fair amount of time. She can't which lends to the idea that there are others working on it.

3) Shiho didn't "recently" finish it... It was finished for a while and was going through testing. It was recently cleared for use. There is a BIG difference.

4) It is possible Vermouth with her rank had access to the research and noticed that there was age reducing properties. She could have used her disguising techniques until then.

5) THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THE B-ORG AND THE ORG IN MAGIC KAITO! Gosho has stated this. He even made it a point to change the code names. I don't remember what code name system they used in MK, but it was not alcohol. So the Pandora theory is impossible. Unless Gosho makes the Pandora Jewel a key point of both, which seems unlikely.

mangaluva wrote: There's no proof that she took it, and in fact it's nearly impossible since Ai had only recently created it, thus even if she had taken it and survived she'd be a child too; and no, you're not the only one with that crazy theory. I think she used the Pandora too, although I turned my crazy theory into a 90-chapter fanfic with a 21-chapter sidefic If you're not intending to read it or have read it, the summary is thus:

Ah! I remember reading that. It was a good ride, and I totally meant to review after I'd collected my thoughts, and it looks like I forgot. ::coughs:: Sorry!

Kor wrote: Gin also said that Sherry and Kogoro work together 
Gin doesn't know everything and he thinks it's just a poison that should kill people and it doesn't look like he is aware of the side effects of the drug.

I'm not saying that Gin knows everything, but I do think there's a difference between him making a guess about Sherry & Mouri and him restating what he was told by his superiors about a poison.

Yes, I realize that opens the field yet to "Well, they didn't have to tell him the truth!" I'm just saying.

kyuuketsuki wrote: 2) APTX was in development probably before Shiho. She just "completed" it. Remember... there is rarely if ever just a single person working in a lab. Usually a team works on a drug. So she was just part of the team, which is why they have tons and tons of data on it. Consider this... IF Shiho was the only person working on it... she would be able to remember key elements and reconstruct her research in a fair amount of time. She can't which lends to the idea that there are others working on it.

3) Shiho didn't "recently" finish it... It was finished for a while and was going through testing. It was recently cleared for use. There is a BIG difference.

4) It is possible Vermouth with her rank had access to the research and noticed that there was age reducing properties. She could have used her disguising techniques until then.

Those are definitely possibilities that make sense. We certainly don't have proof one way or the other. I guess it comes down partially to a timeline that we don't know enough about. But now that I think about it, what we do know seems to mesh. She was still keeping up the appearance of Sharon one year previous to the series, when Shinichi, Ran, and Yukiko ran into her in New York—she might not have taken the drug yet, since it probably wasn't done yet.

kyuuketsuki wrote: 5) THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THE B-ORG AND THE ORG IN MAGIC KAITO! Gosho has stated this. He even made it a point to change the code names. I don't remember what code name system they used in MK, but it was not alcohol. So the Pandora theory is impossible. Unless Gosho makes the Pandora Jewel a key point of both, which seems unlikely.

Has he said that? Shoot. It seems a little hard to believe that there are two large-scale organizations willing to operate alongside one another in one city, but not out of the realm of possibility. I wasn't without my doubts that they were the same group anyway: like you said, the code names in MK (e.g., Snake) and the fact that they don't seem to make black such a uniform are problematic.

Still, the Sharon connection is, to me at least, rather enticing. And I was encouraged by the fact that Kaito is still clearly searching for something—even going so far as to mention that to Conan, which he'd never done to anyone as far as I can recall. It made me wonder if it was going to be important at all. Possibly not, but a Kid fan can hope...

kyuuketsuki wrote: 5) THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THE B-ORG AND THE ORG IN MAGIC KAITO! Gosho has stated this. He even made it a point to change the code names. I don't remember what code name system they used in MK, but it was not alcohol. So the Pandora theory is impossible. Unless Gosho makes the Pandora Jewel a key point of both, which seems unlikely.

He said that? Damn. Bizarre, though. You'd think two major underground gangs would clash. You know how territorial these things can be. If one wasn't working for the other, you'd think there'd be dead trenchcoats all over the place.

Yup, Gosho said the whole plot would be too confusing, too much to handle so he decided that MK and DC will not merge so to say.

Redmage wrote: Those are definitely possibilities that make sense. We certainly don't have proof one way or the other. I guess it comes down partially to a timeline that we don't know enough about. But now that I think about it, what we do know seems to mesh. She was still keeping up the appearance of Sharon one year previous to the series, when Shinichi, Ran, and Yukiko ran into her in New York—she might not have taken the drug yet, since it probably wasn't done yet.

Of course then comes the question whether she intended to take the drug and knew its effects already. By the time she met Shinichi and Ran, her "daughter" Chris was said to be with "bad people" for 10 years. This means that Sharon had to made up his daughter much earlier. Which would mean that she took that APTX that early. Well, for me that would be the most likely scenario.

Then again it seems like she was much involved with the organisation earlier, her parents' death and her husbands fake death could be some kind of proofs of that. Also she said no angel has smiled on her, not even once, and God never appreciates hard working people, which would strengthen the idea of Sharon being originally a CIA/FBI/whatever spy, who gave up her family in order to complete the mission. I cannot recall who's idea s the Sharon the spy,, it was probably one of the top brains, either Nyarl, Shinichi1977, Kosagi... er... sorry about that I forgot it. ^^"

Why did she do it, if she did? If she is a spy, I think the answer would be obvious, if not then maybe her vanity motivated her, or the Boss' pressure. There are many-many uncertain things in the story and their numbers are not decreasing at all. _._

mangaluva wrote:

kyuuketsuki wrote: 5) THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN THE B-ORG AND THE ORG IN MAGIC KAITO! Gosho has stated this. He even made it a point to change the code names. I don't remember what code name system they used in MK, but it was not alcohol. So the Pandora theory is impossible. Unless Gosho makes the Pandora Jewel a key point of both, which seems unlikely.

He said that? Damn. Bizarre, though. You'd think two major underground gangs would clash. You know how territorial these things can be. If one wasn't working for the other, you'd think there'd be dead trenchcoats all over the place.

I personally guess that 1. they are clashing nowhere close to Beika and 2. they have plenty of less important members of the organizations to attack the other while the important codename members do more important stuff

Remember Vermouth's quote: "If you [Shiho] want to blame someone, blame your parents who took over this foolish research." (434) - this implies the research has been going on even longer than when Shiho’s parents started on it. Haibara did say "Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century." (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation)

It isn't clear whether Vermouth suddenly deaged in one go like APTX might cause, or if she stopped aging like Jodie suggested. The one known fact is that she appeared to be in her twenties or thirties twenty years ago when she killed Jodie's parents and that she appears to be the same age twenty years later. The question is whether Vermouth is skilled enough to layer disguises as shown when Sharon takes off the mask of the police officer Radish Redwood. I doubt the Sharon disguise require a full mask, some wrinkles around the eyes would be the majority of it. The issue is whether a disguise on top of a disguise would disrupt the one underneath completely.

Here is an off-the-wall theory. What if Vermouth was the original researcher? She negotiated with the boss and switched emphases and Haibara's parents took over. The medical knowledge would explain how she could pull of disguising as Araide. She seems to know something about basic medicine given she worked as the school nurse (457-459), attempted to take care of Haibara's fever, and managed the take care of the patients despite encouraging them to seek help elsewhere. I think it would be hard to wing that sort of thing.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: The issue if whether a disguise on top of a disguise would disrupt the one underneath completely.

Please see Hattori Heiji, the Invisible Man/Kudou Shinichi.