Mafia Mafia Mafia! Pt. 2! (Game 4: Town wins!)

[xpon]

now we can considering to have a third party.....

[Tanner-kun]

now we can considering to have a third party.....

ya party.

[Schillok]

On a second thought... the power to find out the roles of other players combined with their trust could make them eerily powerful. I assume it is possible to talk with all the players during the day. If the DB just learned about the role of a BO and they tell everyone... would that not make everyone vote for that person?

In that case I would suggest a slight modification in their day-power: Instead of interrogation they would merely be questioning their target. So instead of "BO" or "non-BO" they could for example only get the answer "Suspicious" or "Not Suspicious". Not only BO are suspicious, but also the FBI. The other people would freely speak about who they are and what their job is towards the children, they would therefore be not suspicious.
That should weaken their power a little bit.     

, Only power they would have is knowing who the other two are. Giving three little kids the power to investigate and "interogate" in a town being plagued by killers is just ludicrous....LUDICROUS I SAY!

But only that knowledge would make playing them boring. Great, you can cooperate with 2 other players, but what can you do? Nothing, except influencing the lynch voting. Compared to all the other roles which all do something this roles would not be interesting.

There are possible modifications though...

• At the beginning of the game they are aligned with one of the detectives/police officers. That player can share the results of his/her investigation with them, allowing them to form a team in which they can do something. Though that would mean increasing the size of people knowing their role by another one.
• They have to befriend such a person with their special ability: All three together decide for one player they try to befriend.
  If it is BO or FBI they fail. They can try another player the next day.
  If it is a detective or officer they will learn his/her identity and can get in contact via PM him/her. If it is Vermouth in the role of a detective/officer they will befriend her, believing her assumed role. (lol, bad luck.  )
  I am not sure what should happen if they meet one of the other townfolks. Also fail? Befriend that person instead? (Ran abilities makes a poor friend to associate with... While Agasa would be great since he has 3 trustworthy targets for his bowtie now that could otherwise not investigate.)
• Align them with a random townperson in the beginning. Or one from the following list: Conan, Ai, Agasa, Takagi, Satô, Yumi, Okiya or Vermouth/Kaito Kid if he/she plays one of these roles.

If 4 people knowing identities is too much remember that it would also be possible to just have 2 DB in the game. Their role would be similar to Sonoko - just with the advantage of knowing more people and the disadvantage of not learning the attackers identity like Sonoko does for her friend. 

[Akonyl]

now we can considering to have a third party.....

imo, as far as rule changing goes I'd say we should stick with what we have and just maybe add extra roles sometimes

but also, nothing's stopping two games of mafia from being played, one normal and one with crazier rules

[Schillok]

Suggestion for a new BO class: 

Kiichirou Yamabushi/ Masami Hirota (Akemi Miamoto), Mafia pawns
(possibly Pisco instead of Yamabushi)

• In the preparation phase, they'll choose a non-BO character (not a role and not a player) for their fake identity. Yamabusho can only choose male characters and Akemi only female characters. They can not take the identities of characters that can not be disguised as (DB).
• Can kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often
• If lynched or killed, their chosen (fake) character name will be revealed instead of their true identity.

They will work like any normal BO member while they are alive and have no further special abilities (except for the normal BO assassination). They will not have any of the powers of the characters they disguise as.
But when they get killed they will not be recognized as BO members (except if they were the last active BO in which case the game ends revealing their identity).
They have the scent of the BO. Interrogation will show them as BO. If they get arrested their true identity will be revealed. Megures house-search will also reveal that they are guilty of assuming a fake identity.
If they choose the same name as a character already inside the game it will not have any influence. So there could be a living and a dead Shiratori (or two dead Shiratori).

If they are part of the lovers, their partner will only learn the chosen (fake) character name, not their true names. Same for Sonoko or the DB (if they will be able to befriend someone) should they try to befriend one of the BO pawns they will succeed but only learn their chosen (fake) names. They will also lead Okiya into believing they are the real person should he search for their (fake) name.


The idea is to have low-rank BO members that also have a fake "real live as normal citizens". They have fewer power than the other members but in turn their death can not be tied to the BO.

[Schillok]

@Callid (and everyone else who might be interested)

I see you had a Kir, but her role got removed.
I bet she is a very interesting character so trying to add her again would be nice. Beside I think more BO classes would be useful for variety sake. (No need to have the same combination in every game).

So the question is: What was the problem with her?

Was it just because she is able to change sides? (Looks like Vermouth had a similar ability once)
Or was it because there is no way to control that the player does not leak the information about the identities of the BO members to the town?

I would have an idea for her if it was just the first problem, but to solve the second - and leave her role as a spy intact - would be much much harder.

Kir, CIA NOC

• She is treated like any other BO member during the game. Has another code name (so that the BO can't detect her by telling everyone to reveal the code name - in DC it wouldn't work) and takes part like normal in all the BO activities. Does not have the abilities of that second codename.
• Will win if the town side wins, loses if the BO wins. She counts as a town-citizen when determining the number of BO for a game (so if there would be 3 BO normally and her role is added there would be a total of 4 BO (including Kir)) and to determine if a side won the round.
• She is not allowed to send/post any information to players other than other BO. Not even about her true identity.
• Can be assigned to kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often.
• However, her assassination attempt will FAIL every time. The player can send the GM a suggested reason for the failure (tricked, healed, protected by Makoto, foreigner not in japan).

Similar to what she was before, but without the chance to change sides. She will be a member of the town from the beginning on.
Since it is supposed to be the final conflict with the BO she will not kill anyone to keep her cover. On the other hand she is not able to leave the organization freely as long as their members are still active.
Interrogations and smell would make her seem like she is BO. Investigations will tell she attempted to kill her victim. She can be arrested by the police. Megures house-search will reveal her true identity.

When ever she tries to kill someone the death will (somehow) be prevented. Though neither the original owner of that ability nor the target will learn Kirs identity. (If Eisuke tricked Shinichi and Kir made a fake assassination attempt on Ran, then Eisuke will not learn that it was NOT his own work that prevented the murderer. However Shinichi should realize that he was interrupted by the trickster and that at the same time the murderer of the night was ALSO interrupted by the trickster (meaning that there are either two Eisukes or that Kir had made her move)).

Of course that means the BO can plot the assassination of their own members. Reasonable considering Kirs incompetence to kill her target...

[Beastly]

@Callid (and everyone else who might be interested)

I see you had a Kir, but her role got removed.
I bet she is a very interesting character so trying to add her again would be nice. Beside I think more BO classes would be useful for variety sake. (No need to have the same combination in every game).

So the question is: What was the problem with her?

Was it just because she is able to change sides? (Looks like Vermouth had a similar ability once)
Or was it because there is no way to control that the player does not leak the information about the identities of the BO members to the town?

I would have an idea for her if it was just the first problem, but to solve the second - and leave her role as a spy intact - would be much much harder.

Kir, CIA NOC

• She is treated like any other BO member during the game. Has another code name (so that the BO can't detect her by telling everyone to reveal the code name - in DC it wouldn't work) and takes part like normal in all the BO activities. Does not have the abilities of that second codename.
• Will win if the town side wins, loses if the BO wins. She counts as a town-citizen when determining the number of BO for a game (so if there would be 3 BO normally and her role is added there would be a total of 4 BO (including Kir)) and to determine if a side won the round.
• She is not allowed to send/post any information to players other than other BO. Not even about her true identity.
• Can be assigned to kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often.
• However, her assassination attempt will FAIL every time. The player can send the GM a suggested reason for the failure (tricked, healed, protected by Makoto, foreigner not in japan).

Similar to what she was before, but without the chance to change sides. She will be a member of the town from the beginning on.
Since it is supposed to be the final conflict with the BO she will not kill anyone to keep her cover. On the other hand she is not able to leave the organization freely as long as their members are still active.
Interrogations and smell would make her seem like she is BO. Investigations will tell she attempted to kill her victim. She can be arrested by the police. Megures house-search will reveal her true identity.

When ever she tries to kill someone the death will (somehow) be prevented. Though neither the original owner of that ability nor the target will learn Kirs identity. (If Eisuke tricked Shinichi and Kir made a fake assassination attempt on Ran, then Eisuke will not learn that it was NOT his own work that prevented the murderer. However Shinichi should realize that he was interrupted by the trickster and that at the same time the murderer of the night was ALSO interrupted by the trickster (meaning that there are either two Eisukes or that Kir had made her move)).

Of course that means the BO can plot the assassination of their own members. Reasonable considering Kirs incompetence to kill her target...

B.O. will be so disadvantage

[Schillok]

@Callid (and everyone else who might be interested)

I see you had a Kir, but her role got removed.
I bet she is a very interesting character so trying to add her again would be nice. Beside I think more BO classes would be useful for variety sake. (No need to have the same combination in every game).

So the question is: What was the problem with her?

Was it just because she is able to change sides? (Looks like Vermouth had a similar ability once)
Or was it because there is no way to control that the player does not leak the information about the identities of the BO members to the town?

I would have an idea for her if it was just the first problem, but to solve the second - and leave her role as a spy intact - would be much much harder.

Kir, CIA NOC

• She is treated like any other BO member during the game. Has another code name (so that the BO can't detect her by telling everyone to reveal the code name - in DC it wouldn't work) and takes part like normal in all the BO activities. Does not have the abilities of that second codename.
• Will win if the town side wins, loses if the BO wins. She counts as a town-citizen when determining the number of BO for a game (so if there would be 3 BO normally and her role is added there would be a total of 4 BO (including Kir)) and to determine if a side won the round.
• She is not allowed to send/post any information to players other than other BO. Not even about her true identity.
• Can be assigned to kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often.
• However, her assassination attempt will FAIL every time. The player can send the GM a suggested reason for the failure (tricked, healed, protected by Makoto, foreigner not in japan).

Similar to what she was before, but without the chance to change sides. She will be a member of the town from the beginning on.
Since it is supposed to be the final conflict with the BO she will not kill anyone to keep her cover. On the other hand she is not able to leave the organization freely as long as their members are still active.
Interrogations and smell would make her seem like she is BO. Investigations will tell she attempted to kill her victim. She can be arrested by the police. Megures house-search will reveal her true identity.

When ever she tries to kill someone the death will (somehow) be prevented. Though neither the original owner of that ability nor the target will learn Kirs identity. (If Eisuke tricked Shinichi and Kir made a fake assassination attempt on Ran, then Eisuke will not learn that it was NOT his own work that prevented the murderer. However Shinichi should realize that he was interrupted by the trickster and that at the same time the murderer of the night was ALSO interrupted by the trickster (meaning that there are either two Eisukes or that Kir had made her move)).

Of course that means the BO can plot the assassination of their own members. Reasonable considering Kirs incompetence to kill her target...

B.O. will be so disadvantage

Why? They will have the same number of real members as if no Kir was in the game. She belongs to the townpeople after all.
Her position is even among the weakest - since she will be found guilty by all investigations and has no ability to defend herself. She is in the weakest position during the lynching.
She is even in a very weak position when she tries to blame on of her fellow "BO-partners" since she is not allowed to do that. And at least after her second failure the BO should be able to guess her identity, if not much earlier.
Her biggest advantage is that she will give the town one more turn to use their abilities (and maybe one more lynching, if they have enough information to know some BO members).

And I think she would be interesting to play, knowing the BOs moves and hoping for the other side to win while having no real power herself.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Another "problem" with Kir was, that Callid (or was it someone else? D:) doesn't like Kir XD

The "not being able to kill" is a good idea. This way, the BO can't kill 1 person at night. But this way it will also confuse the Townspeople, because they won't know, if their healing, Tricking etc. took effect. So she's "good and bad" for both sides.

The problem is the counting of the BO members. If she's counted in as a BO member, but wins as a Townmember, she wouldn't lynch together with her BO buddies at a critical moment.
What I mean would be this: 3 BOs: Kir, Gin and Bourbon are left. And 4 townies are left too. So theoretically, if it's 3BO vs. 3 Towns, the BO wins.
Meaning, the BO has to lynch 1 more Townie (currently day phase). Since they know who is who, they would vote all for the same. The 4 Townmembers could have different views, as who to lynch. So they could vote for 2x Gin, 1x Kir and 1x Bourbon or 3x Gin and 1x Bourbon. Thus, theoretically the BO gets the majority in the lynching vote.
But here Kir wouldn't vote(stating she forgot to vote etc.) or vote for someone else. So she hindered the Majority for the BO and they would be either a tie or a BO member gets the majority to be lynched.

Another way for the BO to get rid of Kir is to accuse her of being BO (if they think that person is Kir). So she get's lynched, revealed as a BO member and the other BO member gets the trust of the townspeople.

But I wouldn't put Kir into this game yet. Still too vague and too many confusing parts.
To sum it up, counting her as a BO member would be "wrong", because Kir would hinder the BO to kill of all townspeople.

Well a way to solve that would be, to not count her as a BO member. She's "neutral" and doesn't win if the town wins and also doesn't win if the BO wins. She would win if she is able to stay alive till the end.
So if the Townspeople lynch her, she lost. And if she get's discovered by the BO, she lost too.
The BO could then get a "extra" ability, that the leader (Anokata or Gin or whoever is the highest member) could PM the GM once and tell his suspicion. For example: "Korn is Kir" and get's either a wrong or right. But they can use that only once. (and since they could have bourbon, he could investigate, whether the role Kir is in or not anyway)

The BO could also try to get her lynched.

But I wouldn't put her into the game yet (at least not this round), if ever. Because there are still confusing parts

[Schillok]

The problem is the counting of the BO members. If she's counted in as a BO member, but wins as a Townmember, she wouldn't lynch together with her BO buddies at a critical moment.
What I mean would be this: 3 BOs: Kir, Gin and Bourbon are left. And 4 townies are left too. So theoretically, if it's 3BO vs. 3 Towns, the BO wins.
Meaning, the BO has to lynch 1 more Townie (currently day phase). Since they know who is who, they would vote all for the same. The 4 Townmembers could have different views, as who to lynch. So they could vote for 2x Gin, 1x Kir and 1x Bourbon or 3x Gin and 1x Bourbon. Thus, theoretically the BO gets the majority in the lynching vote.
But here Kir wouldn't vote(stating she forgot to vote etc.) or vote for someone else. So she hindered the Majority for the BO and they would be either a tie or a BO member gets the majority to be lynched.

In the situation you mentioned: Gin, Kir, Burbon and 4 other townies - only the BO would believe it is 3:4. The town does not know the number of BO so they have no idea how many mafia are left in the game. And the true score would be 2:5, but only Kir would know that of course.

And yes, this would be the perfect situation to make her move and vote against the other BOs (if she can predict the voting behavior of them). Especially if she was sent to less killing missions than the remaining BO member because it would mean the next round the villagers are save. That's what her role in the final conflict is, right? Turning against them the moment they least expect it.

Another way for the BO to get rid of Kir is to accuse her of being BO (if they think that person is Kir). So she get's lynched, revealed as a BO member and the other BO member gets the trust of the townspeople.

As said before, Kir will have problems defending herself since she can't tell the identities of the other players. So yes, it is a good way for the BO to get rid of her by supporting the claim against her during lynching. However upon her death the other player would know she is Kir, know she is a traitor. So instead of gaining trust the one who accuses Kir first will likely get suspected of being with the BO (or having an detective/officer/FBI character).

But I wouldn't put Kir into this game yet. Still too vague and too many confusing parts.
To sum it up, counting her as a BO member would be "wrong", because Kir would hinder the BO to kill of all townspeople.

Well, it is just a suggestion. That way there could be a character that no side could be sure about and would misstrust.
And she is not counted as a BO member, she is counted as a townspeople but will seem to be a BO while in the game (until her death).

So if the Townspeople lynch her, she lost. And if she get's discovered by the BO, she lost too.
The BO could then get a "extra" ability, that the leader (Anokata or Gin or whoever is the highest member) could PM the GM once and tell his suspicion. For example: "Korn is Kir" and get's either a wrong or right. But they can use that only once. (and since they could have bourbon, he could investigate, whether the role Kir is in or not anyway)

Sounds good. What about an ability like:
"During the night, once per game you can chose one of your fellow BO members (except for Anokata) and kill him/her. This killing takes place before the BO assassination (meaning if you kill the assassin the victim will survive). If your killing got prevented (by tricking, healing, protection) you get no second chance to use your ability again and the original assassination is carried out normally."
Could be another unique BO class with a quite narrow ability (to protect their lover or to kill Kir), but still better than a vanilla BO with no special abilities at all. Or could be added to Gin if he needed a boost. Obviously he does not need the agreement of any other BO to use that skill, though if he wants to kill Kir talking with the others (and telling them what he intends to do) would be of advantage.
The corresponding character could be Irish or maybe Tequila (with an "accidental" suitcase bomb). Variety in the BO is good. 

[Callid]

About the DBs:

@ The Blind:
I somehow feel as if you had ignored my last post.

Many roles already in the game have a more established and stronger sense of trust for their partner than the DBs, so they would be more deserving of such an ability.

As I said, they have other abilities that correspond to a more important part of their personality.

And the most special about the DBs is their trust towards each other (mainly because they don't have anything else overshadowing it). And therefore it's their ability.

Then there is a problem is creates an unfair advantage for the town. Having three players start out knowing of one another makes it harder for the BAD to blend in (...).

That's not an unfair advantage, as the town will lose three characters with abilities in exchange. An unfair advantage for the BO. And yes, it's supposed to make it more difficult. That's one of the main purposes of this role. And if we'd really figure out that they are that strong (which I doubt) - why not have simply more BOs if they are around?

Three players knowing of each other with access to addition abilities(investigation) when one dies is just setting it up for a quick "process of elimination" game. I don't think one side should get stronger when one of their own dies.

As I said, one of them dying is a disadvantage, as there are now less people they can trust.

And it does not really make them stronger. It's only that if we start with less, the other players will get other roles - and Ayumi/Genta+Araide might be stronger than Ayumi/Genta/Mitsuhiko.

However, if there was no Araide to begin with, Mitsuhiko's death would be a disadvantage.
Perhaps you don't know, because you didn't play game 1, but my ability to trick (incredibly strong back then) was not that important because I could actually stop the murders (it was used this way only once); it was so strong because, after I tricked a player, I knew he would be a certain ally (if someone died, what happened all the time) - and don't forget that the others still couldn't trust me - an it was still very deciding. Now imagine how strong the BO are when they are three who can trust each other indefinitely - and how much it weakens them if one of them dies.


@ Schillok:

The question is: Is it a good idea for the DB to tell their role?
The advantage would be that the town side does not waste energy into investigating them (not too much anyway) and can concentrate on the other characters. (Which would also fit their role in the manga since neither the police nor the FBI does ever consider them as suspects.) And they will probably not fall victim to lynching.
But the disadvantage is that also the BO will know their roles and can concentrate on the OTHER townpeople. Why waste 3 nights on the kids who all together have only one single power during the day while the number of other unknown characters - with potentially MUCH more dangerous abilities - just decreased since you know the (rather harmless) roles of 3 players now?

With the last paragraph, it might be the other way around. If they tell their role, they'll be the base for every "anti-BO-movement" (as the lovers were in game 1). Therefore, if the BO finds out their role somehow, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to kill them. However, if they do announce their role, they might become a target, as they are dangerous now.
Therefore it might be a good strategy for the DB to try to find the best time for the reveal - if they find it, the BO is screwed (as they need to kill all three, they are occupied for three nights - almost too long to be practical). However, if they did so at the beginning (when the BO has no real targets anyway), they won't do much harm.

Since I don't know much about the game I don't know. But their role - the advantage that they know each other and that they can get others to trust them - seems to contain quite a strategic dept. And it is not far from their actual role in the manga.

Guess why I chose them that way.  ;)

On a second thought... the power to find out the roles of other players combined with their trust could make them eerily powerful. I assume it is possible to talk with all the players during the day. If the DB just learned about the role of a BO and they tell everyone... would that not make everyone vote for that person?

It may happen. However, the BO could do the same. If it's (before the night kill) n BO members against (n+3) townsfolk, the BO will win if any townsfolk gets killed, especially if they choose one of the last ones that can interfere with their killing (Araide, Agasa and Eisuke (Not Ran and Makoto, as they'll be unavailable (at least for the next day)). That's similar to what happened in game 3.

In that case I would suggest a slight modification in their day-power: Instead of interrogation they would merely be questioning their target. So instead of "BO" or "non-BO" they could for example only get the answer "Suspicious" or "Not Suspicious". Not only BO are suspicious, but also the FBI. The other people would freely speak about who they are and what their job is towards the children, they would therefore be not suspicious.
That should weaken their power a little bit.

Their power is already weak anyway. Don't forget that two BO members (and, if we have the series killers, even more) are immune against their detection. If we have three BOs, and both Vermouth and Anakota are in, the DB's chance to find the last BO are about one tenth. Yes, the interrogation isn't as strong as it is in normal Mafia games. That's why the Meitanteis can also investigate.

But only that knowledge would make playing them boring. Great, you can cooperate with 2 other players, but what can you do? Nothing, except influencing the lynch voting. Compared to all the other roles which all do something this roles would not be interesting.

Indeed.

There are possible modifications though...

• At the beginning of the game they are aligned with one of the detectives/police officers. That player can share the results of his/her investigation with them, allowing them to form a team in which they can do something. Though that would mean increasing the size of people knowing their role by another one.
• They have to befriend such a person with their special ability: All three together decide for one player they try to befriend.
  If it is BO or FBI they fail. They can try another player the next day.
  If it is a detective or officer they will learn his/her identity and can get in contact via PM him/her. If it is Vermouth in the role of a detective/officer they will befriend her, believing her assumed role. (lol, bad luck.  ::) )
  I am not sure what should happen if they meet one of the other townfolks. Also fail? Befriend that person instead? (Ran abilities makes a poor friend to associate with... While Agasa would be great since he has 3 trustworthy targets for his bowtie now that could otherwise not investigate.)
• Align them with a random townperson in the beginning. Or one from the following list: Conan, Ai, Agasa, Takagi, Satô, Yumi, Okiya or Vermouth/Kaito Kid if he/she plays one of these roles.

If 4 people knowing identities is too much remember that it would also be possible to just have 2 DB in the game. Their role would be similar to Sonoko - just with the advantage of knowing more people and the disadvantage of not learning the attackers identity like Sonoko does for her friend.  

I thought to have either Ai or Conan become a DB as well. But still, this would make them much more sensitive, as they'll lose their ability when he/she dies. Also, what's wrong with them interrogating someone? The DBs can indeed interrogate someone and - as I pointed out above - it's likely that won't find anyone anyway.

About a third party:

now we can considering to have a third party.....

imo, as far as rule changing goes I'd say we should stick with what we have and just maybe add extra roles sometimes

but also, nothing's stopping two games of mafia from being played, one normal and one with crazier rules

I'd also consider a 3rd party too complicated (and it doesn't fit DC). And, currently, we can't afford two games of Mafia, as we are (still?) to few. But if we are 20 or so, we might consider two games.

About the other new roles:

Suggestion for a new BO class:  ;D

Kiichirou Yamabushi/ Masami Hirota (Akemi Miamoto), Mafia pawns
(possibly Pisco instead of Yamabushi)

• In the preparation phase, they'll choose a non-BO character (not a role and not a player) for their fake identity. Yamabusho can only choose male characters and Akemi only female characters. They can not take the identities of characters that can not be disguised as (DB).
• Can kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often
• If lynched or killed, their chosen (fake) character name will be revealed instead of their true identity.

They will work like any normal BO member while they are alive and have no further special abilities (except for the normal BO assassination). They will not have any of the powers of the characters they disguise as.
But when they get killed they will not be recognized as BO members (except if they were the last active BO in which case the game ends revealing their identity).
They have the scent of the BO. Interrogation will show them as BO. If they get arrested their true identity will be revealed. Megures house-search will also reveal that they are guilty of assuming a fake identity.
If they choose the same name as a character already inside the game it will not have any influence. So there could be a living and a dead Shiratori (or two dead Shiratori).

If they are part of the lovers, their partner will only learn the chosen (fake) character name, not their true names. Same for Sonoko or the DB (if they will be able to befriend someone) should they try to befriend one of the BO pawns they will succeed but only learn their chosen (fake) names. They will also lead Okiya into believing they are the real person should he search for their (fake) name.


The idea is to have low-rank BO members that also have a fake "real live as normal citizens". They have fewer power than the other members but in turn their death can not be tied to the BO.

Well, it's Akemi Miyano, but anyway.
Yes, I'd also use Pisco.
Note that arresting will (at least normally) not reveal any identity. Neither true nor fake ones. And I'd leave it that way.
Of course, this fake identity should be a crime, just like disguising, and should be investigateable (although it will be very, very difficult to find it out, as you'll have to specify "Schillok assumed the fake identity of Shiratori".
There could also be two living Shiratoris. One true and a faked.
If they are lovers, it doesn't make any sense to hide their true identity. If they are in love with some BO, they'll know anyway, and if it's a townsfolk they'll have to ally - and should tell each other as much as they know.
And, to make it sure, you mean Okiya will find out if it's in, don't you? Okiya does only investigate if a certain role is in the game, not who has this role.

@Callid (and everyone else who might be interested)
I see you had a Kir, but her role got removed.
I bet she is a very interesting character so trying to add her again would be nice. Beside I think more BO classes would be useful for variety sake. (No need to have the same combination in every game).

So the question is: What was the problem with her?

Was it just because she is able to change sides? (Looks like Vermouth had a similar ability once)
Or was it because there is no way to control that the player does not leak the information about the identities of the BO members to the town?

I would have an idea for her if it was just the first problem, but to solve the second - and leave her role as a spy intact - would be much much harder.

Both. Actually, she was removed first, and Vermouth was afterwards changed accordingly. But, indeed, the first was more important. And no, it wasn't me who disliked her. Actually I defended her quite long - after all, it was me who invented her.

Kir, CIA NOC

• She is treated like any other BO member during the game. Has another code name (so that the BO can't detect her by telling everyone to reveal the code name - in DC it wouldn't work) and takes part like normal in all the BO activities. Does not have the abilities of that second codename.
• Will win if the town side wins, loses if the BO wins. She counts as a town-citizen when determining the number of BO for a game (so if there would be 3 BO normally and her role is added there would be a total of 4 BO (including Kir)) and to determine if a side won the round.
• She is not allowed to send/post any information to players other than other BO. Not even about her true identity.
• Can be assigned to kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often.
• However, her assassination attempt will FAIL every time. The player can send the GM a suggested reason for the failure (tricked, healed, protected by Makoto, foreigner not in japan).

Similar to what she was before, but without the chance to change sides. She will be a member of the town from the beginning on.
Since it is supposed to be the final conflict with the BO she will not kill anyone to keep her cover. On the other hand she is not able to leave the organization freely as long as their members are still active.
Interrogations and smell would make her seem like she is BO. Investigations will tell she attempted to kill her victim. She can be arrested by the police. Megures house-search will reveal her true identity.

When ever she tries to kill someone the death will (somehow) be prevented. Though neither the original owner of that ability nor the target will learn Kirs identity. (If Eisuke tricked Shinichi and Kir made a fake assassination attempt on Ran, then Eisuke will not learn that it was NOT his own work that prevented the murderer. However Shinichi should realize that he was interrupted by the trickster and that at the same time the murderer of the night was ALSO interrupted by the trickster (meaning that there are either two Eisukes or that Kir had made her move)).

Of course that means the BO can plot the assassination of their own members. Reasonable considering Kirs incompetence to kill her target...

Yes, you could make her work that way. Although I would let her decide if she wants to kill, as she originally did. In very special situations, it might be indeed better if a certain townsfolk died. I'd give her a special ability to "misaim", that will make it look as if she had been tricked. That would also explain why everyone present at the killing (victim, Eisuke, Araide etc.) would not know that she deliberately decided not to kill them. However, Araide or Okiya would notice that they weren't needed, and the victim will notice that it seems as if she were tricked.

A large problem is her BO-identity. She can't get any with a special ability, as her being unable to use that ability would reveal her (A Bourbon who claimed there is no Shiratori and we've just killed one? That's Kir!). She's therefore limited to the BOs without abilities.
Also, the must-not-tell restriction is a little bit unreasonable, as far as she herself is concerned. I would make her able to tell her identity. Of course, this can be misused by the real BO - but they'll never know if a Kir is in and will prove them wrong...

But of course she mustn't tell the other BO's identities.
Oh, and we'll have to decide if house-searching her will make Megure leave the police. She is unable to commit any crime, but she clearly did before the game starts. And as she can get arrested, she has obviously committed a crime.

The problem is the counting of the BO members. If she's counted in as a BO member, but wins as a Townmember, she wouldn't lynch together with her BO buddies at a critical moment.
What I mean would be this: 3 BOs: Kir, Gin and Bourbon are left. And 4 townies are left too. So theoretically, if it's 3BO vs. 3 Towns, the BO wins.
(...)
To sum it up, counting her as a BO member would be "wrong", because Kir would hinder the BO to kill of all townspeople.
(...)
Well a way to solve that would be, to not count her as a BO member. She's "neutral" and doesn't win if the town wins and also doesn't win if the BO wins. She would win if she is able to stay alive till the end.
So if the Townspeople lynch her, she lost. And if she get's discovered by the BO, she lost too.

You are already wrong there. That's not 3 BO against 4 townies, but 2 BO against 5 townies. As Schillok said, she's a townie.

Another way for the BO to get rid of Kir is to accuse her of being BO (if they think that person is Kir). So she get's lynched, revealed as a BO member and the other BO member gets the trust of the townspeople.

That would not work, as they'd know that she's Kir after her death. So the BO would instead reveal themselves.

But I wouldn't put Kir into this game yet. Still too vague and too many confusing parts.
(...)
But I wouldn't put her into the game yet (at least not this round), if ever. Because there are still confusing parts.

Indeed. But you only need to say it once.

The BO could then get a "extra" ability, that the leader (Anokata or Gin or whoever is the highest member) could PM the GM once and tell his suspicion. For example: "Korn is Kir" and get's either a wrong or right. But they can use that only once. (and since they could have bourbon, he could investigate, whether the role Kir is in or not anyway)

Indeed. and perhaps we should exclude Kir from Bourbon's list. It will make her useless almost immediately.

[Kleene Onigiri]

But I wouldn't put Kir into this game yet. Still too vague and too many confusing parts.
(...)
But I wouldn't put her into the game yet (at least not this round), if ever. Because there are still confusing parts.

Indeed. But you only need to say it once.

That was because I thought I deleted my text ;p so I wrote it 2x D:

The problem is the counting of the BO members. If she's counted in as a BO member, but wins as a Townmember, she wouldn't lynch together with her BO buddies at a critical moment.
What I mean would be this: 3 BOs: Kir, Gin and Bourbon are left. And 4 townies are left too. So theoretically, if it's 3BO vs. 3 Towns, the BO wins.
(...)
To sum it up, counting her as a BO member would be "wrong", because Kir would hinder the BO to kill of all townspeople.
(...)
Well a way to solve that would be, to not count her as a BO member. She's "neutral" and doesn't win if the town wins and also doesn't win if the BO wins. She would win if she is able to stay alive till the end.
So if the Townspeople lynch her, she lost. And if she get's discovered by the BO, she lost too.

You are already wrong there. That's not 3 BO against 4 townies, but 2 BO against 5 townies. As Schillok said, she's a townie.

I thought she counted her as a BO, but would win as a Townie. Yes I was wrong :p

Another way for the BO to get rid of Kir is to accuse her of being BO (if they think that person is Kir). So she get's lynched, revealed as a BO member and the other BO member gets the trust of the townspeople.

That would not work, as they'd know that she's Kir after her death. So the BO would instead reveal themselves.

Not necessarily. If the one who wanted to lynch her claims for example to be Sherry, she would have found Kir through her scent.
At this point, it could really have been Sherry, and the people could trust or suspect her to be BO. It could also be that this person is in the BO and claims to be Sherry, because they know that Sherry isn't in the game.
So if Kir is lynched, it could have been because a Townsperson found her out to "be BO/ having a scent", or it could have been a BO member blaming her. People could either trust or distrust the person who lynched Kir. (but yes, they wouldn't trust them 100%, my bad ;p)

Both. Actually, she was removed first, and Vermouth was afterwards changed accordingly. But, indeed, the first was more important. And no, it wasn't me who disliked her. Actually I defended her quite long - after all, it was me who invented her.

Sorry, my bad. But I remember someone ditching Kir, because he didn't like her D:

[Schillok]

With the last paragraph, it might be the other way around. If they tell their role, they'll be the base for every "anti-BO-movement" (as the lovers were in game 1). Therefore, if the BO finds out their role somehow, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to kill them. However, if they do announce their role, they might become a target, as they are dangerous now.
Therefore it might be a good strategy for the DB to try to find the best time for the reveal - if they find it, the BO is screwed (as they need to kill all three, they are occupied for three nights - almost too long to be practical). However, if they did so at the beginning (when the BO has no real targets anyway), they won't do much harm.

As I said, I don't know how important "trust" is in this game compared to "power" given by special roles. Or which tactic is best for them. Which makes it seem like including their role is a good idea. Of course losing a member at random at the beginning would cripple them a bit. Not completely as the surviving 2 could still state they are the 2 remaining DB while the BO would have to expose 2 members cooperating claiming to be them (and immediately suspected by the true kids and their allies).

Since I don't know much about the game I don't know. But their role - the advantage that they know each other and that they can get others to trust them - seems to contain quite a strategic dept. And it is not far from their actual role in the manga.

Guess why I chose them that way.  ;)

Because they mean less work for the GM? 3 roles with only 1 interrogation is easier than 3 townies all with different special abilities. 

Their power is already weak anyway. Don't forget that two BO members (and, if we have the series killers, even more) are immune against their detection. If we have three BOs, and both Vermouth and Anakota are in, the DB's chance to find the last BO are about one tenth. Yes, the interrogation isn't as strong as it is in normal Mafia games. That's why the Meitanteis can also investigate.

You are right, I expected the interrogation to be quite strong.
This is why I suggest the introduction of more BO roles anyway (so Vermouth and Anakota would not both have to be present all the time). Especially those who can be determined by interrogation. It would increase the power of interrogation, which would be very useful I guess. From what I read in the other games the detectives did never contribute anything useful, did they? I mean considering they should be the "strongest" town-characters out there.

Which leads to the question of the "leadership ranking" to determine the one deceiding who to send:
Anakota -> Vermouth -> Gin. So far it is clear. But then? Vodga/Tequila before the snipers? And Kir (if introduced) above the pawns?

I thought to have either Ai or Conan become a DB as well. But still, this would make them much more sensitive, as they'll lose their ability when he/she dies. Also, what's wrong with them interrogating someone? The DBs can indeed interrogate someone and - as I pointed out above - it's likely that won't find anyone anyway.

But their interrogation seems inferior (to me) manga-wise compared to their ability to make friends and allies. They have won Conan and Ai in a heartbeat. Same with the Professor. They gained the trust of Takagi and Satô almost as quickly and they are willing to share their investigations with them. Even Shiratori and Megure trust them.
I think having the power to befriend someone similar to Sonoko would be closer to their actual role. And then helping that person with all their power (which usually means 6 additional sets of legs, ears and eyes).
You are right the death of their friend would hurt them way too much though. Maybe they should be allowed to search for a new friend during the day then?

Example:
The DB know their identities and decide to try to befriend player A during the first day. That player would then receive the message that "Some children tried to talk with you but you sent them away without looking at them" if it is a BO or FBI (without knowing who tried to befriend him there). The DB would then get the message from the GM during the night they were not able to make friends with that character. Which would kind of also work as their "interrogation" method since it will help them to find FBI/BO.
The second day they try again with player B. If that player is not FBI or BO - or if she is Vermouth/ a BO pawn in a townie disguise - (s)he will get the choice (? - might also be possible to make it mandatory) to accept their friendship. During the night phase the GM will send that player the identities of the DBs and the DB the identity (assumed identity for a disguised character) of their new friend. For example "You befriended the players X (Mitsuhiko), Y (Ayumi) and Z (Genta)" or "Your group befriended the player B (Agasa)").

As long as they are in a friendship they will not be able to look for new friends, so they will have to rely on the power of their ally. If that ally dies/is arrested they can search for a new friend.


I think that would make them closer to their true character (and eliminates the problem of having them trying to catch a murderer on their own by interrogating strangers on their own).
It could also allow some interesting combinations (more or less beneficial for the persons involved) and they might get confused and used by a BO in disguise if they are not careful.

[Callid]

But their interrogation seems inferior (to me) manga-wise compared to their ability to make friends and allies. They have won Conan and Ai in a heartbeat. Same with the Professor. They gained the trust of Takagi and Satô almost as quickly and they are willing to share their investigations with them. Even Shiratori and Megure trust them.
I think having the power to befriend someone similar to Sonoko would be closer to their actual role. And then helping that person with all their power (which usually means 6 additional sets of legs, ears and eyes).
You are right the death of their friend would hurt them way too much though. Maybe they should be allowed to search for a new friend during the day then?

Example:
The DB know their identities and decide to try to befriend player A during the first day. That player would then receive the message that "Some children tried to talk with you but you sent them away without looking at them" if it is a BO or FBI (without knowing who tried to befriend him there). The DB would then get the message from the GM during the night they were not able to make friends with that character. Which would kind of also work as their "interrogation" method since it will help them to find FBI/BO.
The second day they try again with player B. If that player is not FBI or BO - or if she is Vermouth/ a BO pawn in a townie disguise - (s)he will get the choice (? - might also be possible to make it mandatory) to accept their friendship. During the night phase the GM will send that player the identities of the DBs and the DB the identity (assumed identity for a disguised character) of their new friend. For example "You befriended the players X (Mitsuhiko), Y (Ayumi) and Z (Genta)" or "Your group befriended the player B (Agasa)").

As long as they are in a friendship they will not be able to look for new friends, so they will have to rely on the power of their ally. If that ally dies/is arrested they can search for a new friend.


I think that would make them closer to their true character (and eliminates the problem of having them trying to catch a murderer on their own by interrogating strangers on their own).
It could also allow some interesting combinations (more or less beneficial for the persons involved) and they might get confused and used by a BO in disguise if they are not careful.

While this is s good (very good!) idea, the problem is that it is too slow. Some games ended as early as the end of Night 3 - in your example above just the moment their new-found friend can use his ability for them for the first time.
Perhaps it's better if they choose exactly like Sonoko (see her role)(that means during preparation). They'd get a friend for (almost) sure - and they could befriend the FBI as well (I don't think, for example, that there would be problems with Jodie).
And if they do not get one, they can retry the next day, and the same applies if their friend dies (probably at night, because it's almost impossible to overvote four non-suspicious people).

But still, I think it's much easier to simply give them this one ability. After all, why shouldn't the DBs interrogate? Isn't that what they do in every case they appear?

[Schillok]

About the other new roles:

Suggestion for a new BO class:  ;D

Kiichirou Yamabushi/ Masami Hirota (Akemi Miamoto), Mafia pawns
(possibly Pisco instead of Yamabushi)

• In the preparation phase, they'll choose a non-BO character (not a role and not a player) for their fake identity. Yamabusho can only choose male characters and Akemi only female characters. They can not take the identities of characters that can not be disguised as (DB).
• Can kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often
• If lynched or killed, their chosen (fake) character name will be revealed instead of their true identity.

They will work like any normal BO member while they are alive and have no further special abilities (except for the normal BO assassination). They will not have any of the powers of the characters they disguise as.
But when they get killed they will not be recognized as BO members (except if they were the last active BO in which case the game ends revealing their identity).
They have the scent of the BO. Interrogation will show them as BO. If they get arrested their true identity will be revealed. Megures house-search will also reveal that they are guilty of assuming a fake identity.
If they choose the same name as a character already inside the game it will not have any influence. So there could be a living and a dead Shiratori (or two dead Shiratori).

If they are part of the lovers, their partner will only learn the chosen (fake) character name, not their true names. Same for Sonoko or the DB (if they will be able to befriend someone) should they try to befriend one of the BO pawns they will succeed but only learn their chosen (fake) names. They will also lead Okiya into believing they are the real person should he search for their (fake) name.


The idea is to have low-rank BO members that also have a fake "real live as normal citizens". They have fewer power than the other members but in turn their death can not be tied to the BO.

Well, it's Akemi Miyano, but anyway.
Yes, I'd also use Pisco.

I always confuse Akemis name. And yeah, Pisco makes more sense as her male counterpart.

Note that arresting will (at least normally) not reveal any identity. Neither true nor fake ones. And I'd leave it that way.

Okay. I was unsure how arresting works anyway.
So basically the police officers says per PM: I arrest Schillok for murdering TheBlind (Ai Haibara)?
If it is true then I will be arrested but the other players will not know my final identity, only that I was really the one who did it?
And if it is false I get arrested anyway, the officer becomes public and a civilian without powers and it will be told that it was not me, correct?

Same if the officer successfully found out my disguise I guess: I will be arrested, it will be told that I in deed took that identity but my true identity will remain hidden?

There could also be two living Shiratoris. One true and a faked.

Yeah. I forgot o include that possibility.

If they are lovers, it doesn't make any sense to hide their true identity. If they are in love with some BO, they'll know anyway, and if it's a townsfolk they'll have to ally - and should tell each other as much as they know.

Makes sense.  ;D

And, to make it sure, you mean Okiya will find out if it's in, don't you? Okiya does only investigate if a certain role is in the game, not who has this role.

Okiya will ask: "Is there a Shiratori in the game", correct? But yes, in that case he will find out there is one - even if I am only assuming Shiratoris role.

Kir, CIA NOC

• She is treated like any other BO member during the game. Has another code name (so that the BO can't detect her by telling everyone to reveal the code name - in DC it wouldn't work) and takes part like normal in all the BO activities. Does not have the abilities of that second codename.
• Will win if the town side wins, loses if the BO wins. She counts as a town-citizen when determining the number of BO for a game (so if there would be 3 BO normally and her role is added there would be a total of 4 BO (including Kir)) and to determine if a side won the round.
• She is not allowed to send/post any information to players other than other BO. Not even about her true identity.
• Can be assigned to kill at night if ordered by Anakota, but only if no other alive BO member were assigned to kill someone less often.
• However, her assassination attempt will FAIL every time. The player can send the GM a suggested reason for the failure (tricked, healed, protected by Makoto, foreigner not in japan).

Similar to what she was before, but without the chance to change sides. She will be a member of the town from the beginning on.
Since it is supposed to be the final conflict with the BO she will not kill anyone to keep her cover. On the other hand she is not able to leave the organization freely as long as their members are still active.
Interrogations and smell would make her seem like she is BO. Investigations will tell she attempted to kill her victim. She can be arrested by the police. Megures house-search will reveal her true identity.

When ever she tries to kill someone the death will (somehow) be prevented. Though neither the original owner of that ability nor the target will learn Kirs identity. (If Eisuke tricked Shinichi and Kir made a fake assassination attempt on Ran, then Eisuke will not learn that it was NOT his own work that prevented the murderer. However Shinichi should realize that he was interrupted by the trickster and that at the same time the murderer of the night was ALSO interrupted by the trickster (meaning that there are either two Eisukes or that Kir had made her move)).

Of course that means the BO can plot the assassination of their own members. Reasonable considering Kirs incompetence to kill her target...

Yes, you could make her work that way. Although I would let her decide if she wants to kill, as she originally did. In very special situations, it might be indeed better if a certain townsfolk died. I'd give her a special ability to "misaim", that will make it look as if she had been tricked. That would also explain why everyone present at the killing (victim, Eisuke, Araide etc.) would not know that she deliberately decided not to kill them. However, Araide or Okiya would notice that they weren't needed, and the victim will notice that it seems as if she were tricked.

This would make finding her much harder for the BO though. Might make her too strong. And in the final conflict it would make sense that she is not able to kill anyone.
Making "misaim" seem like she was tricked is nice, but once her brother is killed she would be revealed immediately that way.
Or wait.... is it announced that the murderer was tricked? Or is it merely stated that noone died that night? In case of the later I guess it works better than what I suggested.

A large problem is her BO-identity. She can't get any with a special ability, as her being unable to use that ability would reveal her (A Bourbon who claimed there is no Shiratori and we've just killed one? That's Kir!). She's therefore limited to the BOs without abilities.

She should only get the lower ranks anyway. Or very rarely the cover of one of the top-4 (Anakota (never), Vermouth (better not), Gin, Bourbon). Because then she could decide for the target herself and will choose it in such a way that it hurts the BO most - like another BO member. And unless one of their lower-ranks has a special ability to get rid of her, the town would almost have won the moment she becomes the leader.
But yeah, I suggest she should usually get the roles with no (or hardly useful) abilities: Mafia Members, Mafia Snipers (since she will fail that ability would not work even if she had it), Mafia pawns (whose power is only effective once they die anyway).

Also, the must-not-tell restriction is a little bit unreasonable, as far as she herself is concerned. I would make her able to tell her identity. Of course, this can be misused by the real BO - but they'll never know if a Kir is in and will prove them wrong...

Well... I was unsure about that point anyway. Again, it would make her stronger.

Oh, and we'll have to decide if house-searching her will make Megure leave the police. She is unable to commit any crime, but she clearly did before the game starts. And as she can get arrested, she has obviously committed a crime.

Megure searching her house should not make him leave the police. They will find traces that she is involved in criminal activities, even if it is just disguising as an unused BO member.

The BO could then get a "extra" ability, that the leader (Anokata or Gin or whoever is the highest member) could PM the GM once and tell his suspicion. For example: "Korn is Kir" and get's either a wrong or right. But they can use that only once. (and since they could have bourbon, he could investigate, whether the role Kir is in or not anyway)

Indeed. and perhaps we should exclude Kir from Bourbon's list. It will make her useless almost immediately.

Yeah, she should be excluded since otherwise it would be the first thing they search each round. Question is if the same should also be true for Okiya.

Shouldn't searching for a person in disguise always result in a negative anyway? While searching for that disguise result in a positive?