Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[DCUniverseAficionado]

I still think it makes no sense for Kuroda to just be a random person when it's been highlighted so much that he was in a coma and has memory issues.

Well, who are we sure was there at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime?
Kōji, Amanda, Asaka, Rum/Kanenori, Rumi and Hyōe.

To me, there are three broad possibilities, here:
1) Asaka is Rumi, and Hyōe intruded upon the crime scene.
2) Hyōe is Asaka, and Rumi intruded upon the crime scene.
3) Someone else is Asaka, and both Hyōe and Rumi intruded upon the crime scene.

To get a better read on which possibility will pan out, we need more information about the incident 10 years ago that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma, because that's something that Goshō has constantly avoided giving us info about.
At the time Hyōe was introduced and the coma brought up, Goshō wanted us to think Rum had replaced the real Hyōe Kuroda. Now that it's clear that post-coma Hyōe not Rum, some will let their guards down and assume that no twists await us with Hyōe. I think Goshō aimed to have us assume that the "someone switched places with Hyōe during the coma" theory was the red herring, when actually the "Rum swapped with Hyōe during the coma" theory was the red herring and the "someone switched placed with Hyōe during the coma" theory was correct.
So if Rum didn't switch places with the real Hyōe, who did? If it's not Tsutomu... then it could only be Asaka—that's the way out of the "whoever switched places with the real Hyōe is just some random person" problem, which we would run into if Asaka is neither Rumi nor Hyōe (and we'd also run into it if Asaka is Rumi).
And no, I don't buy the "Kōji is still alive and is now posing as someone else (in this case, post-coma Hyōe)" theory

[Kor]

I'll once again present the supposed hole with Kuroda seeing dead Kouji before Rumi:

Rumi has the shogi piece, and the police speculates that whoever has the shogi piece is the murderer, but if Kuroda was there before Rumi, but after Kouji was killed, surely he'd see that the shogi piece was still in Kouji's hand (assuming it was in his hand), so there's no reason to suspect whoever it was who stole the piece.

That aside, this timeline would also be a real mess: Kouji gets murdered, murderer (Rum probably) escapes, Kuroda shows up, Kuroda leaves, Rumi shows up, takes shogi piece, and then leaves, and somehow this all happen in very close proximity.

To me, either the inconsistencies in memories are just art inconsistencies, or Kuroda's memory is after Rumi's.

As for Asaka, it's really difficult for me to consider any further theories about the case that don't have Rumi=Asaka as part of their baseline. Like Wakita being Rum, it's been the most telegraphed thing for years now.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

I'll once again present the supposed hole with Kuroda seeing dead Kouji before Rumi:

Rumi has the shogi piece, and the police speculates that whoever has the shogi piece is the murderer, but if Kuroda was there before Rumi, but after Kouji was killed, surely he'd see that the shogi piece was still in Kouji's hand (assuming it was in his hand), so there's no reason to suspect whoever it was who stole the piece.

That aside, this timeline would also be a real mess: Kouji gets murdered, murderer (Rum probably) escapes, Kuroda shows up, Kuroda leaves, Rumi shows up, takes shogi piece, and then leaves, and somehow this all happen in very close proximity.

To me, either the inconsistencies in memories are just art inconsistencies, or Kuroda's memory is after Rumi's.

As for Asaka, it's really difficult for me to consider any further theories about the case that don't have Rumi=Asaka as part of their baseline. Like Wakita being Rum, it's been the most telegraphed thing for years now.

But if post-coma Hyōe is Asaka, he would've been in the thick of it to begin with—no need for him to conveniently come upon the scene of the crime. Which of course, brings us to whether Asaka was BO-allied or not—if he was, then what, specifically, made him and Rum/Kanenori flee? If not, then how did he survive Rum's/Kanenori's attack?

If Rumi has the piece, then something happened that caused both Rum/Kanenori and Hyōe, and Rum/Kanenori especially, to fail to get their hands on it—a reason they didn't pry his clenched hand open. For me to make a more educated supposition about that reason, I'd need more info—such as whether or not Asaka was BO-allied.

If it's an art inconsistency, then that's 100% on Goshō and his staff, and it'd be worse for creating a fake clue where there shouldn't have been one... and even worse since it went years without correction.

I get the reasoning, but the info we have right now is not enough for me to go that far—I'd need more info on, for instance, the incident from 10 years ago that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma.

[Reader]

And one more question, at the begging of RUM's arc, Akai hands a gun to NPA agent, Asking for Rei to trace back the sale of the gun. In which purpose, is There anything to look for ?

The point is to trace the sales route. The NPA might trace it back to the gun dealer, who may or may not hold any connection to the BO. So the thread is very thin and probably it won't be addressed anymore in the story.

[Angra Shadow]

I think it's pretty clear that Rumi is Asaka, her abilities are what you'd expect from a professional bodyguard and the way she remembers Koji in a much more personal way suggests that she was acquainted with him well before the murder happened, which as far as we know only Asaka was.

Also one thing I said earlier but, unless the translation I read was inaccurate(and correct me if that is the case), we only know the length of the coma Kuroda was in, not when it started or ended, so our timeline for him is pretty vague as well.

From what I saw the whole "memory of Koji's corpse" thing is pretty weird since we see it with multiple characters that weren't even there at the scene so it might just have been a visual indication that Kuroda is thinking about him, rather than it being a clear memory of the scene.

One last thing, I wonder if Rumi thinks that Kuroda is RUM, because the way she stared at him with such murderous intent makes me think she suspects him of being Koji's murderer, gonna be interesting to see where that goes.

[Reader]

From what I saw the whole "memory of Koji's corpse" thing is pretty weird since we see it with multiple characters that weren't even there at the scene so it might just have been a visual indication that Kuroda is thinking about him, rather than it being a clear memory of the scene.

The thing is that the Kohji's corpse shown in the background with the multiple characters (Yumi, Mary, Rumi, Conan) is the same one everytime. But with Kuroda the picture has clear differences: the absence of pool of blood near the mouth, the extent of bruises, and the right eye slightly open (debatable though). So it cannot be 'just a visual indication' but in fact definitive proof that it is his memory.
okay, maybe not definitive, but you get my point

[Kor]

From what I saw the whole "memory of Koji's corpse" thing is pretty weird since we see it with multiple characters that weren't even there at the scene so it might just have been a visual indication that Kuroda is thinking about him, rather than it being a clear memory of the scene.

The thing is that the Kohji's corpse shown in the background with the multiple characters (Yumi, Mary, Rumi, Conan) is the same one everytime. But with Kuroda the picture has clear differences: the absence of pool of blood near the mouth, the extent of bruises, and the right eye slightly open (debatable though). So it cannot be 'just a visual indication' but in fact definitive proof that it is his memory.
okay, maybe not definitive, but you get my point

There's a 45 chapters space between Kuroda's memory and Rumi's memory, though. It's also possible Gosho just changed his mind about this one visual, like how he seemingly changed his mind about Kouji's eyebrows (yeah I know it's not the same thing, but there are very clear art inconsistencies between those moments). Even between two consecutive chapters, Rumi's memory changes somewhat.

Ideally, there'd be zero art inconsistencies and any inconsistency would be an objective hint to something, but Gosho is also sometimes not as careful as we'd like him to be with these things.

[Angra Shadow]

Really hope the next case includes Kuroda in the spotlight again, I feel like with the crazy RUM and Mary plotlines progression recently, and having had a Rumi case not that long ago, it's the perfect time to return to Kuroda and give him something big, would be cooler if we got Akai/Masumi/Shuukichi involved too, that way we will see if they have any interesting interactions that may hint at something.

[MeiTanteixX]

If it's an art inconsistency, then that's 100% on Goshō and his staff, and it'd be worse for creating a fake clue where there shouldn't have been one... and even worse since it went years without correction.

I'll just copy-paste my views on this unnecessarily controversial topic:

About Kuroda's Haneda Kohji thoughts... the best thing you can infer from it is that he is interested in that case to the point of noticing Rumi's name's similarity to the dying message (at the very least being aware of a potential dying message). As for whether he was directly involved, you need more concrete evidence on that like in the case with Rumi (rather than a vague background illustration).

Real reason for the lack of blood in his thoughts:
Gosho never thought of it as a relevant detail to add in File 987 while illustrating Kuroda's Kohji thoughts (not necessarily memories). He introduced the smell of blood much later as a relevant detail to confirm Rumi's presence in Kohji's room (File 1032). It's not just the blood that's different... you can pick up general design differences on Kohji and his wounds too.

I think that even if Kuroda saw Kohji's body directly, it still would have likely looked exactly as in Rumi's and everyone else's thoughts. To rephrase... if Kuroda were to think of Kohji again, Gosho would reuse his corpse from File 1032, as he has done so far in File 1033, File 1037, File 1042 and File 1043.

in conclusion... I think it's on the reader for assuming a hint where it was never explicitly introduced as such.

[Angra Shadow]

I would be a lot more accepting of it as a hint if we had any other information that pointed to a 5th party involved in Koji's murder, but so far, nearly 120 chapters after the introduction of that plotline, only 4 have been mentioned.

[Reader]

Gosho never thought of it as a relevant detail to add in File 987 while illustrating Kuroda's Kohji thoughts(not necessarily memories).

How do you know? From what you wrote, it seems you are less inclined to take it as an important detail. But again, you can never be sure. Of course we need one more piece of evidence to nail Kuroda's​ presence back then, but let's not throw all possible hints under the rug.

in conclusion... I think it's on the reader...

Hehe, I see what you did there.

...assuming a hint where it was never explicitly introduced as such.

Explicitly? Hints are always subtle though. And as you said, to consider whether given information is hint or not depends on the reader. The same way how you consider certain information as foreshadowing/hints in your theories. But in this case, the fact (hint) is so in the face, assuming Gosho didn't get sloppy with his art consistency (he hasn't, that's what I think).

[MeiTanteixX]

But in this case, the fact (hint) is so in the face, assuming Gosho didn't get sloppy with his art consistency (he hasn't, that what I think).

Again, as I have been highlighting, there is no evidence to his thoughts being memories as with Rumi's. The fact there are such "inconsistencies" (without further evidence backing Kuroda's presence in Kohji's room) further supports the notion that it was merely Kuroda thinking of Kohji's death in a very less-than-detailed/broad way and in association with his rising suspicion of Rumi in File 987. This is nothing strange and foreign in DC. Characters have constantly thought of things they could never have seen beforehand illustrated accurately behind them... which is at the end of the day just an illustration for the reader's sake, rather than being relevant in-universe to the characters' exact memories.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

If it's an art inconsistency, then that's 100% on Goshō and his staff, and it'd be worse for creating a fake clue where there shouldn't have been one... and even worse since it went years without correction.

I'll just copy-paste my views on this unnecessarily controversial topic:

About Kuroda's Haneda Kohji thoughts... the best thing you can infer from it is that he is interested in that case to the point of noticing Rumi's name's similarity to the dying message (at the very least being aware of a potential dying message). As for whether he was directly involved, you need more concrete evidence on that like in the case with Rumi (rather than a vague background illustration).

Real reason for the lack of blood in his thoughts:
Gosho never thought of it as a relevant detail to add in File 987 while illustrating Kuroda's Kohji thoughts (not necessarily memories). He introduced the smell of blood much later as a relevant detail to confirm Rumi's presence in Kohji's room (File 1032). It's not just the blood that's different... you can pick up general design differences on Kohji and his wounds too.

I think that even if Kuroda saw Kohji's body directly, it still would have likely looked exactly as in Rumi's and everyone else's thoughts. To rephrase... if Kuroda were to think of Kohji again, Gosho would reuse his corpse from File 1032, as he has done so far in File 1033, File 1037, File 1042 and File 1043.

in conclusion... I think it's on the reader for assuming a hint where it was never explicitly introduced as such.

there is no evidence to his thoughts being memories as with Rumi's. The fact there are such "inconsistencies" (without further evidence backing Kuroda's presence in Kohji's room) further supports the notion that it was merely Kuroda thinking of Kohji's death in a very less-than-detailed/broad way and in association with his rising suspicion of Rumi in File 987. This is nothing strange and foreign in DC. Characters have constantly thought of things they could never have seen beforehand illustrated accurately behind them... which is at the end of the day just an illustration for the reader's sake, rather than being relevant in-universe to the characters' exact memories.

If he never thought of blood on the mouth as a relevant detail, then File 987 should retroactively become consistent with the other instances. Until that image appears in Hyōe's mind again, File 987 sticks out like a sore thumb. I'd buy your position more if it was Yumi or Shinichi/Conan... but this is Hyōe—that creates too much of an uncertainty factor for me to just dismiss this. Until such time, my position is that this is not a mistake, but a clue—if not, then if there's a share of blame to go my way, then I'll take it. But saying Gosho bears none of the responsibility for an oversight that features the victim of the arc's big mystery and one of the big players of the arc? I'm afraid I must disagree.

[MeiTanteixX]

If he never thought of blood on the mouth as a relevant detail, then File 987 should retroactively become consistent with the other instances. Until that image appears in Hyōe's mind again, File 987 sticks out like a sore thumb.

It was never a topic of inconsistent blood on the mouth however (since that's consistently there), but rather lack of blood pool on the floor under his face. One could in other words argue that Kuroda was thinking of Kohji's corpse independent of its crime scene (aka, the bloody floor and hotel setting), considering Kuroda is seemingly comparing Rumi's stunt on the golfer with how Kohji's corpse ended up,... and that's regardless if he has seen the corpse in the past or not.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

If he never thought of blood on the mouth as a relevant detail, then File 987 should retroactively become consistent with the other instances. Until that image appears in Hyōe's mind again, File 987 sticks out like a sore thumb.

It was never a topic of inconsistent blood on the mouth however (since that's consistently there), but rather lack of blood pool on the floor under his face. One could in other words argue that Kuroda was thinking of Kohji's corpse independent of its crime scene (aka, the bloody floor and hotel setting), considering Kuroda is seemingly comparing Rumi's stunt on the golfer with how Kohji's corpse ended up,... and that's regardless if he has seen the corpse in the past or not.

Actually, that specific aspect is different between the files. And again, File 987 sticks out compared to the other instances.

Yes, the corpse is being focused on... but what about the corpse, specifically? That's the uncertain part.
And this focus on "Kōji's corpse independent of the crime scene..." is that what Shinichi/Conan, Yumi and Mary are thinking of, as well, just like you say Hyōe is? Yet he doesn't share the visual aspect with even them, or Rumi. I'd buy your position about the importance of Rumi smelling blood being elevated even more if Hyōe thought of the same details of the same image as the other 4 who brought up that image—that consistency would make Rumi being the only one who brought the sense of smell into the equation stand out all the more.