Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[blackmoon]

hmm... reminds me of a fish being caught in a net from a previous case...

Title: The Pursuit of the Fish E-mail
Japanese title: お魚メールの追跡
(Osakana Mēru no Tsuiseki)
Manga source: Volume 51: Files 2-3 (523-524)

"The boy's first text mentioned a lot of people wearing hats and fish being caught in a net, implying that he is near a fishing spot.

Since the boy's following texts mentioned a restaurant sign, people wearing hats, and people peering down at him, he must be in a position which requires him to look up. Also, because no one has yet to show concern for a boy left alone without his father for a long period of time, he must be inside a car.

The fifth text about there actually being three fish in the sky, not just one refers to Koinobori (carp streamers). Since one streamer became three, that implies that wind has picked up, and thus Mitsuru's location is Komaezaki.

The fourth text referring to fish being in a net is because a large net surrounding a practice golf course had overlapped with the carp streamers, thus seeming like a giant net in the sky with fish in it."
quoted from: https://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wik ... ish_E-mail

[PhantomWriter]

Wakita is squatting again.

That's the trick KID keeps using with his disguises, squatting to make it look like he's shorter.

Regardless of who he is, he is hiding something. He's throwing me off because the sea and ocean motif both reminds me of Masumi [a lot of her cases deal with water or the ocean] and of how rum is associated with oceanic stuff [pirates and the British royal navy especially].

Edit- He also uses the same expression that Kuroda does (at least in translation), "please take care of me," asking it of Amuro while Kuroda asked it of Conan. Interesting parallel.

Well, here's hoping we get something by the end of the case that'll give us a clearer picture... 'cause I'm kind of stuck on him, too. I don't know whether he's Rum, whether he's Tsutomu, or—dare I say it—whether he's actually both.

If he's Tsutomu and not Rum... then that leaves us with Hyōe and Rumi (taking Gosho at his word that Rum is one of three people—Hyōe, Rumi or Kanenori)—two people who each know things that one would think Rum would've acted on, by now (Hyōe knows Bourbon is NPA, knows just how intelligent Shinichi/Conan is, and seems to be aware of the plan the Kudos likely proposed to Bourbon when he broke into their house; Rumi is a hair's breath from both Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai, has even been testing the former's intelligence, and even seems to have worked out his identity). If you forced me to pick one... I'd say that if Kanenori's not Rum... then Rumi is the most likely to be Rum.

If he's Rum and Tsutomu... then I guess that'd be a big twist on the Gundam basis, right? 'Cause Char's dad was actually dead the whole time and not faking it at all, right?

I'd be all for the Rum = Kanenori = Chikara Katsumata theory to be proven right, but I'm not holding my breath on that one—the odds of it happening are pretty slim.

Tsutomu being Rum is an interesting idea, especially with Masumi's thoughts during the previous case. She remembers that Mary went out to meet Tsutomu in London, only for Mary to come back shrunk. What I find most interesting is what it implies. Masumi sees no contradictions and doesn't think that the story is odd. Mary's been shown to be rather cautious and plays things close to the chest. Of course, there is the possibility Mary lied to Masumi about what she was doing, or else it was a trap set up by the Organization, or else Tsutomu drugged her. If that last point, it could be either a sort of test of loyalty if he's an infiltrator, or he was part of the Organization or turned to them.

(If Mary was lying about going to see Tsutomu, though, that doesn't change that Masumi thinks he's alive in order for that meeting to have happened in the first place. Masumi told Conan, Ran, and Sonoko that Tsutomu is dead, though, so she was probably lying to them to avoid attracting attention.)

Yes, Hyoue and Rumi both being Rum would raise questions about their lack of action on basic information they should have acted upon. It's especially egregious with Hyoue, with his coma for 10 years. The Organization was willing to send Kir on a test of loyalty for being surrounded for a few weeks by the FBI and Hyoue was explicitly in a police hospital for a decade, not a general hospital where law enforcement was hanging around due to their suspicions. If, for the sake of argument, Hyoue was Rum, he would have to have a serious reputation within the Organization to not be subject to that scrutiny.

Though that still raises questions about why the Organization wouldn't replace their second in command over a decade while the guy was in a coma. Would make their work needlessly difficult, I'd imagine.

As for Chikara and Wakita being the same person, that is an interesting idea. They have relatively similar facial structures and have very different demeanors from each other. It would also tie Shukichi to the main plot more than he already has by virtue of his family. It also adds a neat little parallel to Shukichi, too, since Shukichi avoided telling people in his life (notably Yumi) about his shogi career. (Though, technically, Shukichi's supposed to be the closest in characterization to Tsutomu, according to Masumi.) A fun idea to play around with for a bit, unlikely as it is.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Tsutomu being Rum is an interesting idea, especially with Masumi's thoughts during the previous case. She remembers that Mary went out to meet Tsutomu in London, only for Mary to come back shrunk. What I find most interesting is what it implies. Masumi sees no contradictions and doesn't think that the story is odd. Mary's been shown to be rather cautious and plays things close to the chest. Of course, there is the possibility Mary lied to Masumi about what she was doing, or else it was a trap set up by the Organization, or else Tsutomu drugged her. If that last point, it could be either a sort of test of loyalty if he's an infiltrator, or he was part of the Organization or turned to them.

(If Mary was lying about going to see Tsutomu, though, that doesn't change that Masumi thinks he's alive in order for that meeting to have happened in the first place. Masumi told Conan, Ran, and Sonoko that Tsutomu is dead, though, so she was probably lying to them to avoid attracting attention.)

Yes, Hyoue and Rumi both being Rum would raise questions about their lack of action on basic information they should have acted upon. It's especially egregious with Hyoue, with his coma for 10 years. The Organization was willing to send Kir on a test of loyalty for being surrounded for a few weeks by the FBI and Hyoue was explicitly in a police hospital for a decade, not a general hospital where law enforcement was hanging around due to their suspicions. If, for the sake of argument, Hyoue was Rum, he would have to have a serious reputation within the Organization to not be subject to that scrutiny.

Though that still raises questions about why the Organization wouldn't replace their second in command over a decade while the guy was in a coma. Would make their work needlessly difficult, I'd imagine.

As for Chikara and Wakita being the same person, that is an interesting idea. They have relatively similar facial structures and have very different demeanors from each other. It would also tie Shukichi to the main plot more than he already has by virtue of his family. It also adds a neat little parallel to Shukichi, too, since Shukichi avoided telling people in his life (notably Yumi) about his shogi career. (Though, technically, Shukichi's supposed to be the closest in characterization to Tsutomu, according to Masumi.) A fun idea to play around with for a bit, unlikely as it is.

Hm, I wonder who else was in London at that time...?

I find it very unlikely that Tsutomu Akai is actually dead—he either is yet to appear (and will likely debut in disguise as a "new character"), or has already appeared (which likely means he's in disguise—as Hyōe or Kanenori).

As Gosho mentioned in SDB Black+, Rum wasn't killed for incompetently handling the Kōji/Amanda murders—just ask Pisco, a decades-long BO loyalist, about what incompetently handling murders gets you in the BO—because he was #2 (which also reveals that Rum was #2 even nearly 2 decades ago), so I guess that would be the reason for not being subject to scrutiny after being in a police hospital for a decade.

Gosho dodged a question in SDB Black+ about whether codenames could be inherited... but he did say Rum was only one person, though—so I guess we don't have a situation where there's currently both an original Rum and a new Rum.

I jumped on that theory a while back, and have been carrying a torch for it since, so that's my bias, I guess—with what Gosho's answer to Q92 from SDB Black+ seems to say, though, the only way it can still be confirmed, I think, is if Kanenori turns out to be a disguised Chikara. I'd also be down for Kanenori turning out to be a disguised Tsutomu (whether he's Rum or not).

Now if Tsutomu does turn out to be Rum, does that mean he's an infiltrator, as well? Or will he actually be a villain (either more sympathetically portrayed like Vermouth or more portrayed like Gin)? For me, it's hard to say, either way.

[Zerozaki4869]

Tsutomu being Rum is an interesting idea, especially with Masumi's thoughts during the previous case. She remembers that Mary went out to meet Tsutomu in London, only for Mary to come back shrunk. What I find most interesting is what it implies. Masumi sees no contradictions and doesn't think that the story is odd. Mary's been shown to be rather cautious and plays things close to the chest. Of course, there is the possibility Mary lied to Masumi about what she was doing, or else it was a trap set up by the Organization, or else Tsutomu drugged her. If that last point, it could be either a sort of test of loyalty if he's an infiltrator, or he was part of the Organization or turned to them.

(If Mary was lying about going to see Tsutomu, though, that doesn't change that Masumi thinks he's alive in order for that meeting to have happened in the first place. Masumi told Conan, Ran, and Sonoko that Tsutomu is dead, though, so she was probably lying to them to avoid attracting attention.)

Yes, Hyoue and Rumi both being Rum would raise questions about their lack of action on basic information they should have acted upon. It's especially egregious with Hyoue, with his coma for 10 years. The Organization was willing to send Kir on a test of loyalty for being surrounded for a few weeks by the FBI and Hyoue was explicitly in a police hospital for a decade, not a general hospital where law enforcement was hanging around due to their suspicions. If, for the sake of argument, Hyoue was Rum, he would have to have a serious reputation within the Organization to not be subject to that scrutiny.

Though that still raises questions about why the Organization wouldn't replace their second in command over a decade while the guy was in a coma. Would make their work needlessly difficult, I'd imagine.

As for Chikara and Wakita being the same person, that is an interesting idea. They have relatively similar facial structures and have very different demeanors from each other. It would also tie Shukichi to the main plot more than he already has by virtue of his family. It also adds a neat little parallel to Shukichi, too, since Shukichi avoided telling people in his life (notably Yumi) about his shogi career. (Though, technically, Shukichi's supposed to be the closest in characterization to Tsutomu, according to Masumi.) A fun idea to play around with for a bit, unlikely as it is.

Hm, I wonder who else was in London at that time...?

I find it very unlikely that Tsutomu Akai is actually dead—he either is yet to appear (and will likely debut in disguise as a "new character"), or has already appeared (which likely means he's in disguise—as Hyōe or Kanenori).

As Gosho mentioned in SDB Black+, Rum wasn't killed for incompetently handling the Kōji/Amanda murders—just ask Pisco, a decades-long BO loyalist, about what incompetently handling murders gets you in the BO—because he was #2 (which also reveals that Rum was #2 even nearly 2 decades ago), so I guess that would be the reason for not being subject to scrutiny after being in a police hospital for a decade.

Gosho dodged a question in SDB Black+ about whether codenames could be inherited... but he did say Rum was only one person, though—so I guess we don't have a situation where there's currently both an original Rum and a new Rum.

I jumped on that theory a while back, and have been carrying a torch for it since, so that's my bias, I guess—with what Gosho's answer to Q92 from SDB Black+ seems to say, though, the only way it can still be confirmed, I think, is if Kanenori turns out to be a disguised Chikara. I'd also be down for Kanenori turning out to be a disguised Tsutomu (whether he's Rum or not).

Now if Tsutomu does turn out to be Rum, does that mean he's an infiltrator, as well? Or will he actually be a villain (either more sympathetically portrayed like Vermouth or more portrayed like Gin)? For me, it's hard to say, either way.

Anyhow there could be another scenario which might be bit more likely.

That "Demon in the Darkness" stuff might hint a connection that Tsutomu is already inside BO and has an influence over Gin.
So it won't be a bad idea to think that Tsutomu was the one who contacted Mary back in London.
(Funny thing is that even 7 years after Kohji case Tsutomu was considered to be dead. In between these 10 years something changed i.e. Tsutomu contacted Mary and possibly tried to figure out a plan.)

Now chances are during this last meeting someone(Rum) followed Tsutomu to London and though Tsutomu got away Rum somehow managed to poison Mary.(Hence Rum's headache with Shinichi, to determine whether the persom whom Rum had attacked in London is to be treated as a threat or not.)

Now between Hoye and Kanenori, the former seems to be more of a grounded character with official duties.
The former also seems to be too ignorant about Kohji case to be Tsutomu.(Taking Rumi's bait is a good pointer, plus not caring the white hair.)

The latter can be Tsutomu(given he is squatting to mask his true height sort of indicates that he doesn't want people to see him as a tall man.
His toothbrush moustache, teeth, mannerisms all reek of being fake. Plus identifying the Rumi trap.)

[DCUniverseAficionado]

That "Demon in the Darkness" stuff might hint a connection that Tsutomu is already inside BO and has an influence over Gin.
So it won't be a bad idea to think that Tsutomu was the one who contacted Mary back in London.
(Funny thing is that even 7 years after Kohji case Tsutomu was considered to be dead. In between these 10 years something changed i.e. Tsutomu contacted Mary and possibly tried to figure out a plan.)

Now chances are during this last meeting someone(Rum) followed Tsutomu to London and though Tsutomu got away Rum somehow managed to poison Mary.(Hence Rum's headache with Shinichi, to determine whether the persom whom Rum had attacked in London is to be treated as a threat or not.)

Now between Hoye and Kanenori, the former seems to be more of a grounded character with official duties.
The former also seems to be too ignorant about Kohji case to be Tsutomu.(Taking Rumi's bait is a good pointer, plus not caring the white hair.)

The latter can be Tsutomu(given he is squatting to mask his true height sort of indicates that he doesn't want people to see him as a tall man.
His toothbrush moustache, teeth, mannerisms all reek of being fake. Plus identifying the Rumi trap.)

Right, both Mary and Shūichi seemed to believe he was really gone during the Ripples case.

True, given how intelligent Tsutomu seems to be, and how likely it is he personally intervened during the Kōji case, it seems very probable that he wouldn't mistake Rumi for Rum, the culprit of the case (assuming, of course, Rumi isn't Rum).

[MeiTanteixX]

True, given how intelligent Tsutomu seems to be, and how likely it is he personally intervened during the Kōji case, it seems very probable that he wouldn't mistake Rumi for Rum, the culprit of the case (assuming, of course, Rumi isn't Rum).

That depends entirely on what Rum looked like 17 years ago, and how much of Rum Tsutomu could identify.

[Zerozaki4869]

Identifying the person whom he had fought is not an issue here.
If we are true to the information furnished to us then,
a) Kuroda recalled a dead Kohji and zoomed on his posture of turned head.
b) Kuroda recalled the knocked out golfer's body position.

Now this is a hint that Kuroda is comparing Kohji's body position with corpse's to identify the the killer.(Which sort of nullifies facial recognition)

Also regarding the case I can see that Kohji's work was only the Shogi piece.
The mirror clue is someone else's doing.

[PhantomWriter]

I've been more inclined to the Kuroda = Tsutomu train for a while, but Masumi's memories raise questions given Kuroda would have been in a coma around then and Masumi's assumption that Tsutomu is alive after Ripples. That would've been about the time Kuroda was in the coma so, unless there was some situation where Mary found him later while he was in a coma (which is a pretty big if), I think I'm back to square one.

What's bothered me, though, is that Kuroda appears to be very intelligent (realizing Conan is the detective instead of Kogoro almost immediately), but he also missing memories (according to Yui's dialogue). That detail is throwing me off, because if we assume Kuroda is Rum, he knows about Conan being super-intelligent. He should then presumably have the same ability to do what Eisuke did- simply look for patterns. Conan only popped into existence just after Shinichi Kudo first vanished, the Wimbledon case is a series of loose threads (Shinichi Kudo leaving and entering Japan, Conan not having a paper trail of going to England, but being on live international television during a match), etc.

[Zerozaki4869]

I've been more inclined to the Kuroda = Tsutomu train for a while, but Masumi's memories raise questions given Kuroda would have been in a coma around then and Masumi's assumption that Tsutomu is alive after Ripples. That would've been about the time Kuroda was in the coma so, unless there was some situation where Mary found him later while he was in a coma (which is a pretty big if), I think I'm back to square one.

What's bothered me, though, is that Kuroda appears to be very intelligent (realizing Conan is the detective instead of Kogoro almost immediately), but he also missing memories (according to Yui's dialogue). That detail is throwing me off, because if we assume Kuroda is Rum, he knows about Conan being super-intelligent. He should then presumably have the same ability to do what Eisuke did- simply look for patterns. Conan only popped into existence just after Shinichi Kudo first vanished, the Wimbledon case is a series of loose threads (Shinichi Kudo leaving and entering Japan, Conan not having a paper trail of going to England, but being on live international television during a match), etc.

Yes, it is very natural that after this revelation that theory is severely compromised.
Plus as an Extra issue, you can ponder on the points that
a) If Tsutomu had that much clout in NPA to impersonate one of their officers, then why did he choose Kuroda(the man who lost his eye and face) in the first place?
Won't it be better to concoct an identity just from the scratch?
b) If he was impersonating the real Kuroda then the real Kuroda would have died in his coma during the end of that coma period, which literally takes away 10 good years of time from Tsutomu. If Tsutomu can pull that off with his clout in NPA why didn't he instead got a fake identity to save the time?

Yes, Kurooda is very intelligent yet his idea about Kohji case makes him an indirect player(unlike Tsutomu who is rumoured to be a direct player.)
Also if Kuroda was really replaced then why didn't this intelligent man dye his hair?
If you look closely Kuroda's alibi that he is "what he states." is not airtight. There are holes but those holes shouldn't have been there if Kuroda was really replaced by an intelligent man/person.
So you can more or less think of him as the the real deal.

[Zerozaki4869]

Manaphy's Kuroda=Haneda Theory

[NinaSakura]

In the latest chapter (1031) Wakita mentions the Nine Tailed fox which seems to be a mythological creature “mischievous, usually tricking other people, with the ability to disguise themselves as a beautiful woman”. It fits the Wakita=Whiskey=Tsutomu and Rumi= Rum theory where Rumi seems to be after an agent named Whiskey. Remember Rumi’s reaction to a mention of prosthetic eye ? Maybe Whiskey (Tsutomu) was there at the Kohji case scene when it happened and caused her to lose her eye.

[Lyricadreamy]

In the latest chapter (1031) Wakita mentions the Nine Tailed fox which seems to be a mythological creature “mischievous, usually tricking other people, with the ability to disguise themselves as a beautiful woman”.

Sounds like Vermouth but of course she is already a beautiful woman.

[MeiTanteixX]

My thoughts on File 1033:

Wakasa Rumi's memories

Spoiler:

My suspicions about this proverb about the kakugyo (watchtower bishop) and Kohji asking if Rumi (someone) will still kill him despite that, as well as Rumi calling him foolish, is that Kohji surrendered to his death and was calmly ready to use the bishop piece as a dying message (hence fitting with the proverb "future holds a good move...", since its move will take effect in the future after he dies), and Rumi (who is implied to be BO) had come to his room with intentions to kill him before Rum got to him (wild shot: because she wanted to prevent APTX usage by Rum), but Kohji, having an inkling on her inconsistent intentions with Amanda's killer, convinced Rumi, who took his proverb as the piece being his good luck charm (hence the flashback trigger from "good luck charm"), to pretty much let him make his stand against Amanda's killer with his "good-fortuned" retaliation (which actually meant to leave the bishop piece as a crucial part of the dying message and die by Amanda's killer's hand), thus leading to his death and her calling him a foolish guy for his martyr-like act, and perhaps also because Rum took the bishop piece from his hand in the end (since he doesn't have it on his hand in her memory), making everything seem like a failed retaliation. That would mean that Rumi was there to see him orchestrate the dying message and know what the relevant pieces are (whether she takes anything later or not) and hid herself when Rum came in to kill him (since this was noted as Rum's mistake alone, and not any other BO figure).

Either Gosho is being fair with the flashback implications (meaning that Kohji indeed wondered if she was gonna kill him), or he is going to extreme lengths of highlighting misleading snipbits from completely different contexts of her memory to fuel the Rum mislead. Personally, I'm leaning towards him being fair on this, since unlike Conan during swimsuit and Ran during Chinatown, Rumi doesn't seem to have recollection issues (since she boldly calls Kohji foolish, meaning she remembers Kohji's actions), so it doesn't make sense for her to recall out-of-context snipbits when she already remembers the context (unlike Ran and Conan).

I don't think Kohji's proverb necessarily excludes the piece's promoted side (uma) from being relevant, since the proverb can just be his way of emphasizing the piece as a whole to be important for later. The fact that Gosho revealed the piece with its uma side in File 1008, and then highlights the piece with a kaku proverb here makes both sides candidates (and perhaps it's the least obvious one with that logic, uma, seeing as we had the Rum horse easter eggs).

Wakasa Rumi's pain

Spoiler:

Conan concluding from Rumi just pressing on her eye area that she has monocular vision is to me just another Gosho attempt to mislead, because her pressing like that in general can also be a sign of headache/migraine. This is yet another symptom of wearing unfit glasses imo.
Also, her excuse about feeling "anemic" is an interesting choice, since it immediately reminds me of Vermouth, who made the same excuse for Masumi collapsing in File 822.

Conan's fake identity examples

Spoiler:

"Such as a Detective, who'd change it to something that makes it easier to extract information"
--> Kuroda

"Or a Spy, who'd turn into someone well suited to the place they're infiltrating"
--> Wakita

"Or Someone who'd pose as someone else to deceive people..."
--> Wakasa

So in other words...

Tsutomu is "Kuroda Hyoue the Superintendent" to extract information easier.

the Spy (helping Gin) is "Wakita Kanenori the Chef" to get well suited to Iroha that he's infiltrating.

Vermouth is posing as someone else ("Wakasa Rumi the deputy homeroom teacher") to deceive people.

[k11chi]

Thinking about the Sunset Manor, the backstory for it is actually pretty bananas.

[MeiTanteixX]

Rum impatience and time sensitivity

Spoiler:

VS

Iori Muga impatience and time sensitivity

Spoiler: