Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[Zerozaki4869]

I've always felt very odd regarding Kuroda's swap theory.

a)The mid-coma swap is absurd and contrived.(Somebody mimicking every injury of Kuroda yet forgetting to dye the hair sounds obnoxiously hilarious.)
b)But on the other hand Marie-Antenoitte syndrome is just garbage stuff.
c) So a swap happened but not Mid-coma, so my theory would be that Kuroda wasn't the only one who came across the accident.
d)There was someone who had a similar facial structure like original Kuroda and had no id on him.
e) During the accident the original Kuroda got burnt into cinders while this guy was alive, the rescuers mistook this guy as Kuroda and took him to the Hospital, his face was badly burnt along and in the commotion nobody noticed that whether his hair was white or black.
The nurse who probably knew Kuroda beforehand, was astonished to see his hair getting changed.

Or
The original Kuroda dyed his hair and during bandaged session the black dye just worn off.

To quote Shiho here, I support the third option. In this case, it's Kuroda, the actual one, still in a coma, who's being sort of replaced by, and it so wouldn't surprise me, Akai's father. If Rumi were the bodyguard framed for the murder of 17 years ago barely coming away with a lost eye, and she found out that Kuroda isn't who he claims to be, or the actual Kuroda was a liaison in Japan who made a bad call, it'd make sense Wakasa wants him to fail as a cop.

I see one major difference between the Bourbon Arc and this one, in the former, Bourbon already entered the stage as Scar Akai, which made him the second candidate and his Amuro persona the fourth, whereas in contrast Wakita isn't implied to have one. I do unfortunately lack the time to go back dozens of pages, so I'm just curious if it was brought up (by somebody else than me, way back when) that the glass eye is eerily similar to a Miss Marple story, where she's at first sent on a wild goose chase based on the assumption who the glass-eyed man was watching. Shiho is always a fine radar, more specifically Shinichi keeping her away from number one suspects, and out of these three, she's been prevented from meeting Wakita.

If Rum is one of the three suspects (Hyōe, Rumi or Kanenori), then I’d have to say Rum is Kanenori—indeed, he’s the only one who hasn’t encountered Shiho/Ai, whereas the other two (especially Rumi) have encountered her.

However, if I had to say whether I thought there were only 3 Rum suspects or whether there are more than 3 suspects, I’d have to go with the latter position. There’s just too strong a parallel between the Rum suspects and the Bourbon suspects, especially concerning Kanenori’s strong parallel to Rei/Tōru/Bourbon—it gives me the sense that Gosho’s trying to make us think, “oh, he’s just going to take the Bourbon approach, again, and have the chipper guy who just recently started working right next to the Detective Agency, and pays Kogorō to become his apprentice, be the BO member that the arc revolves around!”, only to later pull the rug out by revealing that neither Hyōe, nor Rumi, nor Kanenori is Rum (for instance, just look at that little mystery from right after Scarlet Showdown—three cups with vinegar and one without… except, gotcha, all four have vinegar!… translation: three people who are Rum suspects and one person who isn’t… except, gotcha, all four people are Rum suspects!)

As for Tsutomu, I doubt he is actually dead—Gosho has hinted that a character believed to be dead actually isn’t, and he’s been squirrely about saying Tsutomu is dead. I don’t think he, himself, is Rum (I don’t think he and his family will be facing off against each other, with them all shocked that he’s been BO this whole time)—rather, I believe he’s one of the Rum suspects—specifically, I believe he is either masquerading as Hyōe, or is masquerading as Kanenori.

If “encountering a demon in the dark/all kinds of monsters lurk in the dark” quote is Tsutomu’s (we have Gosho’s non-answer answer to the question about Tsutomu and Gin knowing each other), then that makes it yet another quote of his Mary has used (“purge the fog that obscures the truth”), and the third one attributed to him (“infected by the disease called curiosity”), and then we have Kanenori and his phrases. There’s also the bit about if “Time is money” is a reference by Rum to Rei/Tōru/Bourbon about Kanenori—if it is, then how would Rum know that there’s a certain drifter going by a name that is an anagram of that phrase that Bourbon should be aware of? Even if Tsutomu isn’t Kanenori, this question still stands.

On the other hand, we have Hyōe, who has been implied to not be the real Hyōe, and if that is indeed the case, then if this imposter isn’t Rum, and isn’t Tsutomu, then who else could this imposter be? I’d be interested to hear any ideas.

My first impression of Rumi’s and Hyōe’s meet-up was: Rumi thought Hyōe was Kōji’s killer (upon seeing that he has only one normal eye), while Hyōe thought Rumi was Kōji’s killer (connecting her to Amanda’s bodyguard and/or the dying message). Now this could be misdirection from Gosho to camouflage that they met before, say, during the accident that put Hyōe in a coma for a decade, and maybe that’s where Rumi got her own scars.

Well my take on Hyoue is that a)He is implied to be not the real Hyoue. b) Haibara ruled him out as a Rum suspect.
So the idea here is Hyoe is someone neither Rum/BO nor the real Hoye.
Now people tend to think that out of two non-BO actors of Kohji case Asaka is an woman, so Tsutomu is a option derived by the process of elimination.
But if we inspect closely, Hotta's claims that a)Asaka was a woman b)Asaka had the same handmirror which was later found at the crime scene sounds contrived. At least the second claim is overly specific. So I'm more inclined to think that these were rumours which were planted in Hotta's mid to get them circulated, which in return would lead Rumi to become the prime Asaka candidate.

Now Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji, Hyoe thinks the dying message is Rumi Wakasa, not Carasuma, Hyoe thinks Rumi is likely killer of Kohji.
All these three points were counter-arguments if Hyoe is postulated to be Tsutomu.

The foreshadowing in 975 suggests that Finger jab strike to eye was Tsutomu's gift to Rum. If Tsutomu had fought Rum then he would know that Rumi could not be Rum.

Mary had told Elena about the Karasuma group. It is very likely that Tsutomu knew about them and shared the info with Mary. So Tsutomu interpreting it as Wakasa Rumi, makes little sense.

If Hyoe fought Rum while Kohji was trying his best to write the dying message, then the bruise in the palm of Kohji would have attracted his attention. In-fact Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji lying in his room over the debris. Points to that Hyoe was a little late. Just late enough to be ruled out as Tsutomu.

Regarding Kanenori, let's see from the first.

a)In her intro chapter Rumi said that Whiskey is her favourite drink. Not Rum. So if anything she is after a BO agent named Whiskey.
b) In Kanenori's intro chapter, Kanenori was ordered to bring three drinks, a)Cola b)Higball(Whiskey+) c)Oolong Tea.
c) Kanenori has this weird love for idioms and phrases, just like Tsutomu.
d) His eyepatch gives him mobility to get out of the restaurant.
e) Kanenori was the only suspect other than Kuroda and Kansuke who reminded Conan of Rum.(but for the eyepatch)
f) Kanenori's name is a reordering of Toki-wa-kanenari. The phrase which means Time is money i.e. Rum's catch-phrase.

All in all Kanenori is a Rumish person whose goal is possibly to more info from Kogoro about his cognizance of Rum.(Which is not Gin's goal, he wants to know whether Kogoro is investigating BO or not, he is not worried about Rum's angle that is something which is Rum's territory.)
So Wakita seems to be a disloyal BO(to some extent) and he didn't jump on Rumi train, he just said "This one s quite quick witted."
Sort of as if he is avoiding Rumi.(An Amuro?Subaru dynamic if you like.)

Regarding Rumi, I think she is a sort of paternal aunt of Haibara who had infiltrated the Karasuma group to investigate Kohji case and the killings of Miyanos. I claim this after seeing the face of Atsushi. His eyes and eybrows(shape and gradient) are much like Rumi's.
Given Haibara's ultimatum to Conan about bitching about Rumi, makes me more certain of this.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Well my take on Hyoue is that a)He is implied to be not the real Hyoue. b) Haibara ruled him out as a Rum suspect.
So the idea here is Hyoe is someone neither Rum/BO nor the real Hoye.
Now people tend to think that out of two non-BO actors of Kohji case Asaka is an woman, so Tsutomu is a option derived by the process of elimination.
But if we inspect closely, Hotta's claims that a)Asaka was a woman b)Asaka had the same handmirror which was later found at the crime scene sounds contrived. At least the second claim is overly specific. So I'm more inclined to think that these were rumours which were planted in Hotta's mid to get them circulated, which in return would lead Rumi to become the prime Asaka candidate.

Now Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji, Hyoe thinks the dying message is Rumi Wakasa, not Carasuma, Hyoe thinks Rumi is likely killer of Kohji.
All these three points were counter-arguments if Hyoe is postulated to be Tsutomu.

The foreshadowing in 975 suggests that Finger jab strike to eye was Tsutomu's gift to Rum. If Tsutomu had fought Rum then he would know that Rumi could not be Rum.

Mary had told Elena about the Karasuma group. It is very likely that Tsutomu knew about them and shared the info with Mary. So Tsutomu interpreting it as Wakasa Rumi, makes little sense.

If Hyoe fought Rum while Kohji was trying his best to write the dying message, then the bruise in the palm of Kohji would have attracted his attention. In-fact Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji lying in his room over the debris. Points to that Hyoe was a little late. Just late enough to be ruled out as Tsutomu.

Yeah, Hotta’s assumption about Asaka’s gender seems to be based on account of Asaka seen holding the hand mirror. Even if Asaka is indeed female, then the hand mirror bit certainly can’t be used as basis for that contention.

I assumed Asaka was a woman upon seeing the ponytail from the picture, and when Rumi came along, she seemed to match Asaka’s profile from that picture—thus, I came to believe Rumi was Asaka. Asaka could be male, however—the gender assumption by Hotta could be a misdirect from Gosho to get us to assume Asaka is female when that is not the case. I certainly wouldn’t expect Hyōe or Kanenori to be Asaka with Rumi grouped in with them.

Side note—do you think Muga is (or could be) Asaka? Or is he just Momiji’s butler, and nothing but that?

It could be that Rumi’s and Hyōe’s reaction to one another was actually due to an encounter between them 10 years ago, and Gosho is trying to have us erroneously believe their reaction to one another was about Rum and Kōji Haneda’s murder—if that is the case, then Hyōe’s assumption may not be that the dying message is ASACA RUM, and he may be after Rumi for the incident 10 years ago, not for the one 17 years ago (assuming Rumi was there for the incident that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma).

On the other hand, unless Tsutomu lingered a bit to see Kōji’s body—after the end of his bout with Rum but before police arrived—then yes, Hyōe remembering Kōji’s body seems to indicate he is not Tsutomu. Also, even if Hyōe is after Rumi for an incident 10 years ago, not 17, and even if his interpretation of the dying message isn’t ASACA RUM, he still connected Rumi to Kōji—potentially, he could be after Rumi because he believes she was involved in Kōji’s murder as well as the incident that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma… though this, I think, decreases his chances of being Tsutomu.

Regarding Kanenori, let's see from the first.

a)In her intro chapter Rumi said that Whiskey is her favourite drink. Not Rum. So if anything she is after a BO agent named Whiskey.
b) In Kanenori's intro chapter, Kanenori was ordered to bring three drinks, a)Cola b)Higball(Whiskey+) c)Oolong Tea.
c) Kanenori has this weird love for idioms and phrases, just like Tsutomu.
d) His eyepatch gives him mobility to get out of the restaurant.
e) Kanenori was the only suspect other than Kuroda and Kansuke who reminded Conan of Rum.(but for the eyepatch)
f) Kanenori's name is a reordering of Toki-wa-kanenari. The phrase which means Time is money i.e. Rum's catch-phrase.

All in all Kanenori is a Rumish person whose goal is possibly to more info from Kogoro about his cognizance of Rum.(Which is not Gin's goal, he wants to know whether Kogoro is investigating BO or not, he is not worried about Rum's angle that is something which is Rum's territory.)
So Wakita seems to be a disloyal BO(to some extent) and he didn't jump on Rumi train, he just said "This one s quite quick witted."
Sort of as if he is avoiding Rumi.(An Amuro?Subaru dynamic if you like.)

Bourbon, Scotch and Rye are all whiskeys, right? If Kanenori is BO, and he has a whiskey codename like those three, then I’d say that increases the odds of him being Tsutomu—though if he is, then what has he been up to all this time? How long has he been infiltrating the Organization?

His praise of Rumi… I wonder just what he thought was quick-witted about her actions…

Do you think Tsutomu is alive, but that he’s not masquerading as either one of these Rum suspects? Have we seen him in present day, yet?

Regarding Rumi, I think she is a sort of paternal aunt of Haibara who had infiltrated the Karasuma group to investigate Kohji case and the killings of Miyanos. I claim this after seeing the face of Atsushi. His eyes and eybrows(shape and gradient) are much like Rumi's.
Given Haibara's ultimatum to Conan about bitching about Rumi, makes me more certain of this.

Certainly, Rumi has a personal stake in this. I wonder if she’s Kōji’s lover and Atsushi’s younger sister, rather than just one or the other. She definitely knows about Rum’s damaged eye. If she’s not Asaka, then how did she get her hands on the Shogi piece (which seems to be the one Kōji gripped in his hand, beneath the scissors, before someone pried both out of his hand)? If Tsutomu interfered, then did she interfere, as well?

Side note #2—if the Shogi piece she has is part of the dying message, and if that other object in her pocket is a knight chess piece (and is also part of the dying message), when we add them to CARASUMA, what is the dying message, you think? Or are there still more pieces we’ve yet to become aware of?

[sherry26]

His praise of Rumi… I wonder just what he thought was quick-witted about her actions…

Sorry for intermediating your conversation but I think what caught his attention was not only her actions but also her name Rumi Wakasa.

[Zerozaki4869]

Well my take on Hyoue is that a)He is implied to be not the real Hyoue. b) Haibara ruled him out as a Rum suspect.
So the idea here is Hyoe is someone neither Rum/BO nor the real Hoye.
Now people tend to think that out of two non-BO actors of Kohji case Asaka is an woman, so Tsutomu is a option derived by the process of elimination.
But if we inspect closely, Hotta's claims that a)Asaka was a woman b)Asaka had the same handmirror which was later found at the crime scene sounds contrived. At least the second claim is overly specific. So I'm more inclined to think that these were rumours which were planted in Hotta's mid to get them circulated, which in return would lead Rumi to become the prime Asaka candidate.

Now Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji, Hyoe thinks the dying message is Rumi Wakasa, not Carasuma, Hyoe thinks Rumi is likely killer of Kohji.
All these three points were counter-arguments if Hyoe is postulated to be Tsutomu.

The foreshadowing in 975 suggests that Finger jab strike to eye was Tsutomu's gift to Rum. If Tsutomu had fought Rum then he would know that Rumi could not be Rum.

Mary had told Elena about the Karasuma group. It is very likely that Tsutomu knew about them and shared the info with Mary. So Tsutomu interpreting it as Wakasa Rumi, makes little sense.

If Hyoe fought Rum while Kohji was trying his best to write the dying message, then the bruise in the palm of Kohji would have attracted his attention. In-fact Hyoe remembers a dead Kohji lying in his room over the debris. Points to that Hyoe was a little late. Just late enough to be ruled out as Tsutomu.

Yeah, Hotta’s assumption about Asaka’s gender seems to be based on account of Asaka seen holding the hand mirror. Even if Asaka is indeed female, then the hand mirror bit certainly can’t be used as basis for that contention.

I assumed Asaka was a woman upon seeing the ponytail from the picture, and when Rumi came along, she seemed to match Asaka’s profile from that picture—thus, I came to believe Rumi was Asaka. Asaka could be male, however—the gender assumption by Hotta could be a misdirect from Gosho to get us to assume Asaka is female when that is not the case. I certainly wouldn’t expect Hyōe or Kanenori to be Asaka with Rumi grouped in with them.

Side note—do you think Muga is (or could be) Asaka? Or is he just Momiji’s butler, and nothing but that?

It could be that Rumi’s and Hyōe’s reaction to one another was actually due to an encounter between them 10 years ago, and Gosho is trying to have us erroneously believe their reaction to one another was about Rum and Kōji Haneda’s murder—if that is the case, then Hyōe’s assumption may not be that the dying message is ASACA RUM, and he may be after Rumi for the incident 10 years ago, not for the one 17 years ago (assuming Rumi was there for the incident that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma).

On the other hand, unless Tsutomu lingered a bit to see Kōji’s body—after the end of his bout with Rum but before police arrived—then yes, Hyōe remembering Kōji’s body seems to indicate he is not Tsutomu. Also, even if Hyōe is after Rumi for an incident 10 years ago, not 17, and even if his interpretation of the dying message isn’t ASACA RUM, he still connected Rumi to Kōji—potentially, he could be after Rumi because he believes she was involved in Kōji’s murder as well as the incident that put Hyōe Kuroda in a coma… though this, I think, decreases his chances of being Tsutomu.

For me the biggest nullifier of Asaka=Rumi theory was Asaka's hand. If you look at Asaka's hand(rather Asaka's hand claimed by the website) you can see a bigger ring finger than the index finger.
Rumi's Index finger is bigger than her ring finger. So Rumi can't possibly be Asaka.

Well, when Hotta's previous case history was being discussed by Kogoro and Conan, Conan had thought about this. He had said that "Hotta must have gotten some info." Now for me the biggest blockade is that the Case uploader(who is earnest in his/her trials) had no whiff of these info but Hotta had them.
If these were from a Bonafide witness, then Police by now would have got a sketch of Asaka in circulation. Which hadn't happened.
Now given these instances, a woman with a name very close to Asaka and the dying message got her name published in the paper.
Also Gin implied that Hotta Gaito is Rum's headache/responsibility. We also saw no BO activity regarding Hotta's case when we compare it with the song case.
So my idea is that it was a set up by Rum, to make Rumi an Asaka candidate and thus lure out the other players of Kohji case, a)Real Asaka b)Tsutomu.
But Hotta's info never got public as Hotta was killed before his farce. So here comes Rumi, from the beginning you can see that this woman is trying to make the headlines.
a) Firstly she tried to butt in at the 10 year old Skeleton case.
b) Pro golfer's murder case.In this case she got herself tangled in such a way that at least Police would have taken her as an witness for the prosecution. Thus getting her name in the headlines.

Now regarding the opthalmologic war between Kuroda and Rumi, there are some subtle points which popular theorists ignore.
i) Rumi shot an unnerving glare to Kuroda.
ii) After Kuroda uttered her name, Rumi became bewildered and got immersed in her thought.

Now it is acceptable truth that Kuroda had black hair and a scar free face 10 years ago. Now this new Kuroda looks much different.
Also cornered criminals(as if who saw their supposed dead victim) get afraid, concerned not triggered after seeing the person(victim) in question.

But Rumi didn't touch her pocket which she did during the prosthetic trigger. So if anything Rumi doesn't think that Kuroda is Rum, rather than she thought Kuroda was someone whose guts she should hate then realized that Kuroda is another person.
Given Rumi's own admission that she likes Whiskey, I think that she thought Kuroda was the BO member named Whiskey. And she has very strong feelings about Whiskey(if she is Atsushi's sister) I think Whiskey was somehow related to the Miyanos' accident(or Rumi thinks so).

Regarding Muga I think he has his own story. Now he is one of um's description(Rumi is not) so a Rum suspect(unlike Rumi). Just like an one eyed cat can't be an one eyed Pitbull/Rotweiller/Labrador suspect.
Now Muga is shown to be the womanly, strong , capable Bodyguard of a Rich girl. He was presented on Friday the 13th(a day on which People got fooled by Akai and Kir) with a Dr.Watson(Wada Shinichi reference).
If anything I think he is the Japanese parallel of Akai Shuichi(the DR.Watson).
So Iori is possibly one of the protectors/good guys. Sort of an Asaka model(if Asaka was a man.) [\quote]

Regarding Kanenori, let's see from the first.

a)In her intro chapter Rumi said that Whiskey is her favourite drink. Not Rum. So if anything she is after a BO agent named Whiskey.
b) In Kanenori's intro chapter, Kanenori was ordered to bring three drinks, a)Cola b)Higball(Whiskey+) c)Oolong Tea.
c) Kanenori has this weird love for idioms and phrases, just like Tsutomu.
d) His eyepatch gives him mobility to get out of the restaurant.
e) Kanenori was the only suspect other than Kuroda and Kansuke who reminded Conan of Rum.(but for the eyepatch)
f) Kanenori's name is a reordering of Toki-wa-kanenari. The phrase which means Time is money i.e. Rum's catch-phrase.

All in all Kanenori is a Rumish person whose goal is possibly to more info from Kogoro about his cognizance of Rum.(Which is not Gin's goal, he wants to know whether Kogoro is investigating BO or not, he is not worried about Rum's angle that is something which is Rum's territory.)
So Wakita seems to be a disloyal BO(to some extent) and he didn't jump on Rumi train, he just said "This one s quite quick witted."
Sort of as if he is avoiding Rumi.(An Amuro/Subaru dynamic if you like.)

Bourbon, Scotch and Rye are all whiskeys, right? If Kanenori is BO, and he has a whiskey codename like those three, then I’d say that increases the odds of him being Tsutomu—though if he is, then what has he been up to all this time? How long has he been infiltrating the Organization?

His praise of Rumi… I wonder just what he thought was quick-witted about her actions…

Do you think Tsutomu is alive, but that he’s not masquerading as either one of these Rum suspects? Have we seen him in present day, yet?

I think it is not more than 17 years. IMO, Tsutomu is still in BO and trying to gather convincing/clinching evidence against Rum

Regarding Rumi, I think she is a sort of paternal aunt of Haibara who had infiltrated the Karasuma group to investigate Kohji case and the killings of Miyanos. I claim this after seeing the face of Atsushi. His eyes and eybrows(shape and gradient) are much like Rumi's.
Given Haibara's ultimatum to Conan about bitching about Rumi, makes me more certain of this.

Certainly, Rumi has a personal stake in this. I wonder if she’s Kōji’s lover and Atsushi’s younger sister, rather than just one or the other. She definitely knows about Rum’s damaged eye. If she’s not Asaka, then how did she get her hands on the Shogi piece (which seems to be the one Kōji gripped in his hand, beneath the scissors, before someone pried both out of his hand)? If Tsutomu interfered, then did she interfere, as well?

Side note #2—if the Shogi piece she has is part of the dying message, and if that other object in her pocket is a knight chess piece (and is also part of the dying message), when we add them to CARASUMA, what is the dying message, you think? Or are there still more pieces we’ve yet to become aware of?

[/quote][/quote]

IMO, there is hardly any chance of that Knight piece in her pocket(something created by MTX to fulfil his Iori fantasy)
I think the dying message is the shogi piece only. If you look clearly then you can see that the mirror had backing, so you can't cut it. You can gogue out the letters but it takes time. Also the mirror looks like a broken one not a cut one. You can also find bigger pieces with no writing on them also missing.
My idea is that Rum possibly took the Shogi piece out of Haneda's hand when Tsutomu came in and attacked Rum. Tsutomu might have had figured out that Karasuma group was to be chased, so he created the "Carasuma" message all by himself so that people can go after the Karasuma group. I think Rumi is Rum's underling sent out to hunt real Kohji case players.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

His praise of Rumi… I wonder just what he thought was quick-witted about her actions…

Sorry for intermediating your conversation but I think what caught his attention was not only her actions but also her name Rumi Wakasa.

No need to apologize.

That could certainly be the case—either way, we need another case with Kanenori focus, since, between him, Hyōe and Rumi, he’s the one with the least focus. It should help us with our theorizing.

For me, Gosho chose his line to be, “This one’s quite quick-witted…”, so that means that he thinks there was something worth praising her for. I just wonder what about her actions he deemed praiseworthy.

For me the biggest nullifier of Asaka=Rumi theory was Asaka's hand. If you look at Asaka's hand(rather Asaka's hand claimed by the website) you can see a bigger ring finger than the index finger.
Rumi's Index finger is bigger than her ring finger. So Rumi can't possibly be Asaka.

So whose hand matches Asaka’s, if Rumi’s doesn’t?

Well, when Hotta's previous case history was being discussed by Kogoro and Conan, Conan had thought about this. He had said that "Hotta must have gotten some info." Now for me the biggest blockade is that the Case uploader(who is earnest in his/her trials) had no whiff of these info but Hotta had them.
If these were from a Bonafide witness, then Police by now would have got a sketch of Asaka in circulation. Which hadn't happened.
Now given these instances, a woman with a name very close to Asaka and the dying message got her name published in the paper.
Also Gin implied that Hotta Gaito is Rum's headache/responsibility. We also saw no BO activity regarding Hotta's case when we compare it with the song case.
So my idea is that it was a set up by Rum, to make Rumi an Asaka candidate and thus lure out the other players of Kohji case, a)Real Asaka b)Tsutomu.
But Hotta's info never got public as Hotta was killed before his farce. So here comes Rumi, from the beginning you can see that this woman is trying to make the headlines.
a) Firstly she tried to butt in at the 10 year old Skeleton case.
b) Pro golfer's murder case.In this case she got herself tangled in such a way that at least Police would have taken her as an witness for the prosecution. Thus getting her name in the headlines.

So, just to clarify—my apologies—did Hotta get this info because Rum wanted to lure out Asaka and Tsutomu?

So Rumi wanted herself in the public eye because Rum ordered her to do so? So is Kanenori aware that Rumi is Rum’s subordinate?

Now regarding the opthalmologic war between Kuroda and Rumi, there are some subtle points which popular theorists ignore.
i) Rumi shot an unnerving glare to Kuroda.
ii) After Kuroda uttered her name, Rumi became bewildered and got immersed in her thought.

Now it is acceptable truth that Kuroda had black hair and a scar free face 10 years ago. Now this new Kuroda looks much different.
Also cornered criminals(as if who saw their supposed dead victim) get afraid, concerned not triggered after seeing the person(victim) in question.

But Rumi didn't touch her pocket which she did during the prosthetic trigger. So if anything Rumi doesn't think that Kuroda is Rum, rather than she thought Kuroda was someone whose guts she should hate then realized that Kuroda is another person.

Given Rumi's own admission that she likes Whiskey, I think that she thought Kuroda was the BO member named Whiskey. And she has very strong feelings about Whiskey(if she is Atsushi's sister) I think Whiskey was somehow related to the Miyanos' accident(or Rumi thinks so).

So if she’s taking orders from Rum, and she’s not Asaka, what causes her to be triggered by mentions of a prosthetic eye? If she’s part of the BO, surely she knows about how the one consistent description of Rum.

Side note… Rumi just said, “whiskey,” rather than naming a specific type of whiskey (e.g., Rye, Bourbon, Scotch, etc.)—is that why you think that there’s going to be a BO member codenamed Whiskey? You’d think Gosho would go for a specific type (like Rye, Bourbon and Scotch) rather than a catch-all…

Regarding Muga I think he has his own story. Now he is one of um's description(Rumi is not) so a Rum suspect(unlike Rumi). Just like an one eyed cat can't be an one eyed Pitbull/Rotweiller/Labrador suspect.

Now Muga is shown to be the womanly, strong , capable Bodyguard of a Rich girl. He was presented on Friday the 13th(a day on which People got fooled by Akai and Kir) with a Dr.Watson(Wada Shinichi reference).
If anything I think he is the Japanese parallel of Akai Shuichi(the DR.Watson).
So Iori is possibly one of the protectors/good guys. Sort of an Asaka model(if Asaka was a man.)

Do you think Gosho planned/wanted readers to deem him the hidden, 4th Rum suspect, in order to deflect attention from the actual hidden, 4th Rum suspect? To put it another way, did he use Momiji (who was originally going to be in Movie 21 with no prior manga introduction) and Movie 21 as cover to introduce a character who is at least somewhat relevant/important to the Rum arc plot?

I think it is not more than 17 years. IMO, Tsutomu is still in BO and trying to gather convincing/clinching evidence against Rum

Who are his allies? Are they just individual people, or does he have the support of a government agency?

IMO, there is hardly any chance of that Knight piece in her pocket(something created by MTX to fulfil his Iori fantasy)

I think the dying message is the shogi piece only. If you look clearly then you can see that the mirror had backing, so you can't cut it. You can gogue out the letters but it takes time. Also the mirror looks like a broken one not a cut one. You can also find bigger pieces with no writing on them also missing.

My idea is that Rum possibly took the Shogi piece out of Haneda's hand when Tsutomu came in and attacked Rum. Tsutomu might have had figured out that Karasuma group was to be chased, so he created the "Carasuma" message all by himself so that people can go after the Karasuma group. I think Rumi is Rum's underling sent out to hunt real Kohji case players.

So that object from Page 16 of 989 beneath the Shogi piece is… what, then? It must be something, right? Wasn’t it one of the things changed for the Volume 93 version of that file?

So the Shogi piece Rumi has is the very same one that Kōji intended to use as a dying message, only for it to be taken by Rum? So Rum kept it, then gave it to Rumi?

If the dying message is just that Shogi piece, then what’s the interpretation that Kōji wanted everyone to make about it?

[Zerozaki4869]

For Asaka, just because someone's hand matches with Asaka's we don't need to think the person is Asaka. Anyhow this is a negation argument, I won't use it as an assertion tool.

Yup, Rumi is Rum's subordinate who is doing Rum's bidding.
Kanenori is aware of this and thinks this is a quick witted tactic of Rumi to get her name trending in the papers.

Iori is never the fourth Rum suspect. Iori, Wakita and Kuroda are the three suspects. (Rumi is an woman so not really a Rum suspect)
If you look closely(and refer the cheating of Gosho) Iori is not an unmarked candidate.(He had enough confidence in his abilities to take on someone armed during the blackout.), he is a good fighter and a great body guard. He got his debut on Friday the 13th. He is a marked suspect.
Kuroda(strong), Wakita(old) and Iori(womanly) are the three Rum suspects, Rumi is an Asaka suspect.
So either Gosho can cheat us with the fact that Rumi is really Rum(and was an woman but Karasuma named her Rum, because she is man enough for that name) or Rum is someone(a man besides wakita, Kuroda and Iori.)
Given Rumi's eyes and eyebrows and Haibara's reaction to Rumi being similar to that of her reaction to Akemi, I would say Rumi is not Rum.It is possible that Rumi is a non-codenamed member of BO(like Akemi).

Regarding Rumi's trigger, I think it is not related to Prosthetic, but rather with the whole sentence(that getting an elbow in the right eye almost made me go for a prosthetic.)
So Rumi might have gotten her right eye injured while doing some thankless task for Rum. That stuff triggered her.(It is also depicted that Rumi might have a vision problem with her right eye.)



I think Tsutomu was originally from Zero Division of NPA. He married abroad so that his family can stay safe if anything happens to him.
The person who is funding Masumi and Mary is possibly not James Black, but Tsutomu's Boss/NPA. Tsutomu Akai appears to be a full blown Japanese, by the time he met Mary in UK, James Black was possibly gone. If anything James Black was Mary's first love/failed lover.

Given the great fall, I would say it seals the deal that they are just dirt. You can verify it that it is a dirt pattern if you look closely on the dirt-patterns on either side of the same pocket.

Regarding the dying message, I do have a theory. Check had already pointed out a way in which the scissors along with the Shogi piece were held. Now if you open Kohji's palm without disturbing the piece or the scissors you can see the the overall picture of Ka-Kanji+the shogi piece Ryuma/Tatsu-uma.
Now Ka+Tatasuma=Katsumata.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

For Asaka, just because someone's hand matches with Asaka's we don't need to think the person is Asaka. Anyhow this is a negation argument, I won't use it as an assertion tool.

Ah, gotcha.

I was just wondering if it could be a small part of the case that could be made for someone being Asaka—whether they had a matching index/ring finger to that picture of Asaka.

Iori is never the fourth Rum suspect. Iori, Wakita and Kuroda are the three suspects. (Rumi is an woman so not really a Rum suspect)
If you look closely(and refer the cheating of Gosho) Iori is not an unmarked candidate.(He had enough confidence in his abilities to take on someone armed during the blackout.), he is a good fighter and a great body guard. He got his debut on Friday the 13th. He is a marked suspect.
Kuroda(strong), Wakita(old) and Iori(womanly) are the three Rum suspects, Rumi is an Asaka suspect.
So either Gosho can cheat us with the fact that Rumi is really Rum(and was an woman but Karasuma named her Rum, because she is man enough for that name) or Rum is someone(a man besides wakita, Kuroda and Iori.)
Given Rumi's eyes and eyebrows and Haibara's reaction to Rumi being similar to that of her reaction to Akemi, I would say Rumi is not Rum.It is possible that Rumi is a non-codenamed member of BO(like Akemi).

Ah, gotcha—so you see him as one of the marked three, not the hidden fourth one.

As of now, with Hyōe seeming to be Rei/Tōru/Bourbon’s boss at Zero, we’re left with Rumi and Kanenori seeming to be BO operatives with agendas of their own (like Vermouth, they have the potential to be disloyal).

Given the great fall, I would say it seals the deal that they are just dirt. You can verify it that it is a dirt pattern if you look closely on the dirt-patterns on either side of the same pocket.

I definitely recall Chek asserting that wasn’t dirt, back when Volume 93 came out.

Regarding the dying message, I do have a theory. Check had already pointed out a way in which the scissors along with the Shogi piece were held. Now if you open Kohji's palm without disturbing the piece or the scissors you can see the the overall picture of Ka-Kanji+the shogi piece Ryuma/Tatsu-uma.
Now Ka+Tatasuma=Katsumata.

Chikara Katsumata is still my #1 candidate for Rum, actually. So I’m with you, there (assuming he’s your top Rum candidate, as well).

Where’s the precedence for a dying message formed by a hand and two objects in DC (be it overall, or in the Rum arc)? Or would this be completely new territory?

So Rum saw the dying message, and removed the scissors and took the Shogi piece to erase it? So Tsutomu was forced to make a different one by using the mirror in order for observers to realize the BO connection? Does Tsutomu know that Rum is Chikara Katsumata, the man his son now has at least somewhat frequent in-person contact with?

[Zerozaki4869]

In DC, dying messages are being done in two ways. A straight forward dying message which is very hard to crack.
Another way is that there are two dying messages, a)An obvious eye catching one b)The more subtle one.
The former is always the fake one/created by someone(culprit/a third party) who wanted to put the blame on somebody else, while the latter is created by the victim.
If anything Kohji's message falls into the second category. Now hand gestures and something else have been simultaneously used in a case in Rum arc. The changing room murder which involved Conan and Masumi.

Regarding Rum suspect list my preference is Chikara>>Iori>>Wakita=>Rumi=Kuroda.
Regarding that dirt, well all I can say is I don't see it.(Possibly there wasn't a second piece as the bruise matches with a single piece only.)

[MeiTanteixX]

I definitely recall Chek asserting that wasn’t dirt, back when Volume 93 came out.

I've come to the realization that it was definitely dirt, since Conan emphasized that there was dirt on Wakasa Rumi's backpocket..... however, I think the point Gosho was going for was that the dirt itself formed a shape, as a result of the imprint from the objects that are inside the pocket when she hit the ground, so Gosho's volume edit of extending the dirt lines should in theory support that there's more than the Uma piece inside it.

[Zerozaki4869]

I definitely recall Chek asserting that wasn’t dirt, back when Volume 93 came out.

I've come to the realization that it was definitely dirt, since Conan emphasized that there was dirt on Wakasa Rumi's backpocket..... however, I think the point Gosho was going for was that the dirt itself formed a shape, as a result of the imprint from the objects that are inside the pocket when she hit the ground, so Gosho's volume edit of extending the dirt lines should in theory support that there's more than the Uma piece inside it.

You can also find dirt patterns on the front and back sewing line of Rumi's pocket.
So there were also objects which made it, eh?

[DCUniverseAficionado]

In DC, dying messages are being done in two ways. A straight forward dying message which is very hard to crack.
Another way is that there are two dying messages, a)An obvious eye catching one b)The more subtle one.
The former is always the fake one/created by someone(culprit/a third party) who wanted to put the blame on somebody else, while the latter is created by the victim.
If anything Kohji's message falls into the second category. Now hand gestures and something else have been simultaneously used in a case in Rum arc. The changing room murder which involved Conan and Masumi.

Indeed—and those hand gestures helped Shinichi/Conan finally realize his connection to the Akais. And who is also connected to the Akais? Kōji Haneda. Certainly not an ironclad assertion, on my part, but…

Regarding Rum suspect list my preference is Chikara>>Iori>>Wakita=>Rumi=Kuroda.
Regarding that dirt, well all I can say is I don't see it.(Possibly there wasn't a second piece as the bruise matches with a single piece only.)

That is my suspect ranking, as well. Put together, Rumi and Hyōe have enough info to devastate anti-BO forces—that devastation would’ve taken place by now, were they BO-aligned individuals with a loyalty comparable to Gin. If you forced me to pick Rum out of the three grouped together on Page 16 of 1,005 and on Page 12 of 1,008, then I’d go with Kanenori. But if you removed that restriction, I’d say Muga is more likely to be Rum than any of them.

But above Muga, for me, on the Rum suspect ranking list, is Chikara. For instance, if Gosho wasn’t making a Lum Invader joke in his Animal Crossing hint that came out around the time we first found out about Rum’s 3 descriptions (September 2014, File 906)—him fielding a question about this particular AC hint during Let’s Talk Day 2017 cements, for me, that he wasn’t making a Lum Invader joke—then Hyōe, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga are all eliminated as Rum suspects (not a one of them had appeared by File 906/Episode 792), leaving us with… Chikara. To continue the point about this hint, in aforementioned Let’s Talk Day 2017 question about it, here’s what Gosho said:

“In a sense, [Rum’s] name was not shown. … [Rum’s] face… maybe [it] appeared… maybe not.”

We only know about Chikara’s name because he said it aloud—while Hyōe, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga were all introduced with suspect name boxes, Chikara wasn’t… in his intro case (899–902/785–786, a.k.a., the first case of the Rum arc, and the very case after Rum was first introduced in the final file of Scarlet Showdown), he never got a suspect name box. Maybe this is what Gosho was hinting at…

Yeah, him holding the Knight piece would leave another bruise that we could certainly identify as having been caused by clenching such an object… and it would make it very easy for Rum to realize he was trying to make a dying message.

[MeiTanteixX]

But above Muga, for me, on the Rum suspect ranking list, is Chikara. For instance, if Gosho wasn’t making a Lum Invader joke in his Animal Crossing hint that came out around the time we first found out about Rum’s 3 descriptions (September 2014, File 906)—him fielding a question about this particular AC hint during Let’s Talk Day 2017 cements, for me, that he wasn’t making a Lum Invader joke—then Hyōe, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga are all eliminated as Rum suspects (not a one of them had appeared by File 906/Episode 792), leaving us with… Chikara. To continue the point about this hint, in aforementioned Let’s Talk Day 2017 question about it, here’s what Gosho said:

“In a sense, [Rum’s] name was not shown. … [Rum’s] face… maybe [it] appeared… maybe not.”

We only know about Chikara’s name because he said it aloud—while Hyōe, Rumi, Kanenori and Muga were all introduced with suspect name boxes, Chikara wasn’t… in his intro case (899–902/785–786, a.k.a., the first case of the Rum arc, and the very case after Rum was first introduced in the final file of Scarlet Showdown), he never got a suspect name box. Maybe this is what Gosho was hinting at…

As far as we know though, in the let's talk, he only answered the same question about if Rum had appeared or not, not directly confirmed/denied if his answer in AC is correct. Imo, because he answered in a more detailed and not clear way, it highly makes it look like his direct straightforward answer in the AC was just a throwaway joke answer about Lum having already appeared(not just as BO lum fan art, not just irl, but even acknowledged as an in-universe anime in DC). The fact that the AC was out before the three first-discoverers case(file 906) started further supports this, since Gosho teases the content of new chapters and in that one Haibara mistook Rum for the "already appeared" Lum.

As for the name thingy... it can be interpreted in mulitple ways that can work with all the suspect,... the straightforward one being that their name is fake, so their true full name hasn't been displayed. "Wakasa Rumi" is obviously derived from "U mascara", Kuroda is implied to be a different person and "Wakita Kanenori" is derived from "toki wa kanenari". Imo, Gosho was referring to their name appearing in general, meaning that includes even names said outloud without boxes, but even Iori and Katsumata can be fake names. Considering that "Karasuma" was recently revealed, and we may have leftovers that continue the message, whoever Rum is, Rum's surname is probably Karasuma (which would thus explain his answer about the name in let's talk).

Yeah, him holding the Knight piece would leave another bruise that we could certainly identify as having been caused by clenching such an object… and it would make it very easy for Rum to realize he was trying to make a dying message.

if it being held was the assumption, yes.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

As far as we know though, in the let's talk, he only answered the same question about if Rum had appeared or not, not directly confirmed/denied if his answer in AC is correct. Imo, because he answered in a more detailed and not clear way, it highly makes it look like his direct straightforward answer in the AC was just a throwaway joke answer about Lum having already appeared(not just as BO lum fan art, not just irl, but even acknowledged as an in-universe anime in DC). The fact that the AC was out before the three first-discoverers case(file 906) started further supports this, since Gosho teases the content of new chapters and in that one Haibara mistook Rum for the "already appeared" Lum.

As for the name thingy... it can be interpreted in mulitple ways that can work with all the suspect,... the straightforward one being that their name is fake, so their true full name hasn't been displayed. "Wakasa Rumi" is obviously derived from "U mascara", Kuroda is implied to be a different person and "Wakita Kanenori" is derived from "toki wa kanenari". Imo, Gosho was referring to their name appearing in general, meaning that includes even names said outloud without boxes, but even Iori and Katsumata can be fake names. Considering that "Karasuma" was recently revealed, and we may have leftovers that continue the message, whoever Rum is, Rum's surname is probably Karasuma (which would thus explain his answer about the name in let's talk).

Interpretation… seeing the same thing and coming to different conclusions.

Sorry, I disagree. Even if he was joking, there’s a chance he wasn’t just/only joking with that AC hint. And if there was any element of “hey, fans, here’s a legit hint from me,” then basically everyone but Chikara gets turfed out of the field of Rum suspects. For me, this is a nice cherry on top of everything else when it comes to Chikara Katsumata.

I guess Chikara’s true surname could be Karasuma…

[MeiTanteixX]

Sorry, I disagree. Even if he was joking, there’s a chance he wasn’t just/only joking with that AC hint. And if there was any element of “hey, fans, here’s a legit hint from me,” then basically everyone but Chikara gets turfed out of the field of Rum suspects.

I want to believe that Gosho wouldn't reveal something this central in an arc this early before any plot groundwork has even properly started, especially in that straightforward fashion. Imo, Rum is not comparable to the other things(like mother sisterhood) he has teased too early, and considering the strict limitations on Rum arc/Boss questions on most Q&A:s, I doubt he would reveal central things of the ongoing plot in AC:s before said plot even kicks off properly. But again... That's just my take on it.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Sorry, I disagree. Even if he was joking, there’s a chance he wasn’t just/only joking with that AC hint. And if there was any element of “hey, fans, here’s a legit hint from me,” then basically everyone but Chikara gets turfed out of the field of Rum suspects.

I want to believe that Gosho wouldn't reveal something this central in an arc this early before any plot groundwork has even properly started, especially in that straightforward fashion. Imo, Rum is not comparable to the other things(like mother sisterhood) he has teased too early, and considering the strict limitations on Rum arc/Boss questions on most Q&A:s, I doubt he would reveal central things of the ongoing plot in AC:s before said plot even kicks off properly. But again... That's just my take on it.

Who knows? He could’ve been using a joke as cover to drop a legit hint, in quite trollish fashion.

Eh, if it turns out it was a joke and nothing but a joke, then oh, well, I guess I lose my cherry on top.

Muga’s still my second choice, either way. We’ll have to wait and see if there’s more to this dying message, or if there was manipulation of it by parties beyond the victims and Rum. As of now, your dying message theory could very well turn out to be true… and it will gain further credibility with me if Rumi does have a knight chess piece. For all I know, all the stuff about Chikara could be unintentional/coincidental on Gosho’s part, and he really did use Momiji and Movie 21 to try to slip Rum in under everyone’s noses.

While Chikara being Rum would follow the Vermouth arc pattern (Tomoaki Ariade introduced: File 234–File 237/Episode 170–Episode 171 / Vermouth introduced: File 238–File 242; Rum introduced: File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783 / Chikara Katsumata introduced: File 899–File 902/Episode 785–Episode 786), Muga being Rum would fit the Bourbon arc pattern (Bourbon introduced: File 622–File 624/Episode 509–Episode 510 / Tōru Amuro introduced: File 793–File 795/Episode 667–Episode 668; Rum introduced: File 894–File 898/Episode 781–Episode 783 / Muga Iori introduced: File 981–File 983/Episode 885–Episode 886). The former features immediate introduction of the member’s true identity (just as Tomoaki’s intro was immediately followed up by the intro of the one who would impersonate him, Rum would appear immediately after first being mentioned), while the latter features much later introduction (in this case, as opposed to the ~170 Files it took for Bourbon to show up as himself in his arc, it took ~80 Files for Rum to show up as himself in his arc). Also, the former case has the first suspect introduced be the one (Tomoaki appeared ~25 Files before Jodie; Chikara appeared ~15 Files before Hyōe, ~70 Files before Rumi, ~75 Files before Kanenori, and ~80 Files before Muga), while the latter case has the last suspect to be introduced be the one (Rei/Tōru appeared ~170 Files after Shūichi/Subaru and ~25 Files after Masumi; Muga appeared ~80 Files after Chikara, ~65 Files after Hyōe, ~15 Files after Rumi and 6 after Kanenori).