DCUniverseAficionado wrote:That is, if the two of you are okay with me attempting to prompt responses and otherwise facilitate discussion.
Do not worry about that. In fact, feel free to notify me if you guys happen to spot grammatical/syntactic errors and/or fallacy in my posts. I'm not a native English speaker so miscommunications are bound to happen.
I have already layed out my arguments about Rumi's actions and her potential motives. If one wants to be sure about Rumi not being Vermouth, they can try debunking this perspective:
My thoughts on Rumi (Up to File 995)
If one is arguing about developments after File 995, then I guess you will have to ask for my opinion on them directly(Since I haven't made an update post for beyond those chapters)
Well, I just tried to give a decent answer to DCUniverseAficionado's question. That said, for the link you posted...
(Countering points No.1 -> 3 are strictly for your speculations regarding Case Files 954-957)
Funny that there are apparent issues I've prepared beforehand that work against your theory, and your examples supporting it aren't absolute. (If you can't tell from all of my questions addressed to your posts, that's my cue of "I think your argument is flawed and here's why")
MeiTanteixX wrote:That's just an assumption. It's not a fact that she is testing Conan. Her helping Conan with the cases doesn't necessarily mean that it has something to do with her goal. In File 966, she asked for the whole DB group's help, not specifically just Conan. In File 978, she planned for the whole DB group's arrival, not just Conan. In File 987, she was chaperoning the whole DB group, not just Conan. In other words, just based on her actions, her motive for being in Teitan Elementary can range from Conan to Haibara and the rest of the DB.
No. Rumi=Vermouth in disguise because she suspects Okiya to be related to the Kouji case and approaches the DB group to get some info on him, that
is an assumption. And I didn't say my original point was a given fact, it was simply my personal observation. I thought it was obvious enough that DCUniverseAficionado asked for my opinions on the matter.
To express my concern about the second bolded part without it becoming another dreadful wall of text, allow me to present my interpretation of Vermouth's thought if she actually disguises as Rumi in order to approach the DB group because Haibara's existence isn't allowed to exist in Vermouth's world (multiple times proven in the manga) :
It's been a month since I started becoming an elementary school teacher. The kids would never suspect a dojikko teacher for a BO spy. Those documentaries I had Bourbon collect before finally paid off. But these kids are so noisy. And they smells ! When will they talk about that guy (Okiya) ? At least invite me to that professor's house in return for the time I invited you to my apartment, you ungrateful little [email protected]#% !! I even cooked dinner for them... I'm hungry. My feet hurt (standing too long in class). These little [email protected]#% are too loud. I wish I was at my true place drinking some martini and admiring the landscape at night... Didn't know this teaching job is so stressful, and I thought babysitting Bourbon was hard enough. I should have picked a better disguise. Well, no use crying over spilt milk. I bet today those [email protected]#% hanging around my sweet Silver Bullet will talk about him (Okiya), or better yet, run into him so that I can put on that air of mystery that gives a woman her allure. He seemed smart from the last time I saw him... Well I've only seen him once but still... There's a high chance he has teacher fetish on top of glass fetish ! Then it'll be an easy win. Hopefully my Silver Bullet and Gin still haven't figured out my objective up until now. Yeah... They probably haven't... My disguise is perfect. I did check my horoscope this morning. Today is my lucky day ! I CAN FEEL IT !!
God I hate the localized version of Vermouth's motto, and I thought the names were bad enough.
In case you question my "horoscope" part, I must say this version of Vermouth would need a great great great amount of luck for everything to work in her favor.
MeiTanteixX wrote:I assume you are basing that on File 954. That was an exception. She was aware of here unpreparedness as Azusa and didn't intend to hide something she knew Conan would eventually find out through her expected mistakes. Give me another case where she was okay with revealing her identity while disguised.
Exactly. An exception based on spur of the moment since Vermouth didn't expect both Ran and Conan to get involved in a case that caught the BO's attention (and it's File 955, just so you know). That was why the entire Azusa facade happened. She said it, I explained it above in the 'spoiler' part. Why did you think otherwise ?
, that's my question. As for your request, I merely offered my thoughts to DCUniverseAficionado's question. Based on your entire assumption that Vermouth disguises as Rumi because she met Okiya AND she is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related, you
should be the one giving me another instance supporting this assumption aside from Case Files 954-957 since you proposed it first.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Second bolded statement "Other BO members would question why Vermouth decides to play an elementary school teacher now of all time" assumes that she isn't hiding it from the BO, like she did during Vermouth arc.
Oh ? Shall we examine the consequences in both cases thoroughly if Vermouth is indeed Rumi then, because I imagine both are too risky for someone as discreet as Vermouth to take :
- If you mean she hides her disguising as Rumi now
it's unlikely that the BO let it slide. Because she did hide her true objectives during Vermouth arc that Gin became extremely irritated and suspicious as she didn't report to the higher-ups about what she was doing, hence the question "Do you know a guy named Shinichi?" After Vermouth arc ? Well, thanks to Calvados's death and being paranoid with style
, the BO probably had some idea about Vermouth especially now that Kogoro Mori supposedly earns her latest affection. I found Gin's distrust of Vermouth since Kir arc combined with his lines at the end of File 953 pretty telling, as it looks like Mori is officially on their list now. His profile is quite impressive as well : getting involved with Kir, with the FBIs, with Vermouth, and now somewhat with a case Rum committed 17 years ago. Keep in mind that Gin straight off decided to kill both Mori and Conan in Kir arc. Do you think she would let Gin get any more funny ideas than that by secretly acting alongside Conan for an unspecified period because of some info that the elementary kids might know about some guy based on a mere doubt ?
You assuming Vermouth repeating this farce bases entirely on your interpretations of her lines in Files 954-957 and I countered them in the 'spoiler' part above.
- If the BO knew Vermouth disguises as an elementary school teacher, shouldn't they get suspicious of her choice to pick Conan's school of all places ? And after getting involved in 3 unrelated cases, Conan's existence
can escape their supervising and paranoia ? Not to mention the chance of meeting Kuroda in Case Files 987-989 was low on her part so the option "getting any info from some police officer who might be interested in the Kouji case" was even more absurd than from elementary students, unless you also thought Shiratori was another disguise. His rambling about the date with Kobayashi-sensei was too cute to be from Vermouth IMO
Furthermore, confronting a police agent right off the bat only makes her more suspicious in Conan's eyes, so it backfires and she has to overcome more hurdles. The more I look at your arguments, the less I think "Hey this is totally Vermouth's style".
In File 987 Haibara did detect a similar "BO's aura" feeling from Rumi but did not think she was someone dangerous.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Then what's the "not-in-between" explanation to her not sensing Vermouth in File 852?
This has never happened before, not in Vermouth arc, not in the Bell Tree Express and this event is NOT like the Cherry Blossom case (I pay extra attention to my favorite characters after all) That's what I mean by "no inbetween" : either Haibara knew that particular scent from Vermouth=DANGER and became scared or she didn't. Do you have any reasonable speculation
for this sudden change ?
MeiTanteixX wrote:She was wary of her during File 987-988, and went as far as to make Rum suspicions. Just in general(unrelated to who Rumi is), you would expect there to be a reason for why she made a complete turnaround(in File 989) after getting BO triggered(in File 987). Why aren't you asking yourself that first?
No she DID NOT think/do that in File 988, that was Conan hence his warning to Haibara in File 989. And I welcome everyone's opinion on this matter.
Gosho draws the specific type of eye expressions (Ai's in File 988) to portray the character is extremely scared of something, another example is Conan when he knew Bourbon discovered that Kusuda shot himself inside his car in File 894. Haibara was indeed wary of Rumi's strange behavior though.
More specifically, Haibara observed Rumi's weird moment and took note only that moment, i.e. cannot see out of her right eye
. There are multiple ways that can cause this without some obvious facial alterations (this is only a quick research) : damaged visual parts of the brain (Cortical visual impairment, Migraine-Aura phase), a genetic risk factor (Glaucoma), a disease's sign/symptom (Cataract), etc. Haibara has considerable medical and biological knowledge (displayed in multiple instances such as Conan's condition in File 253, Shiratori's condition in File 370, her own words in File 360, Takagi's speculated condition in File 808,...) so she should have a better idea about this specific symptom. Of course this alone doesn't explain Haibara's decision to trust Rumi. But at least Rumi's weird out moment with the eye can be a real deal.
FYI, I did ask myself first, then offered my thought on this particular detail to DCUniverseAficionado's question. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have bothered to mention it as a red flag
in one of my posts.
Now for me to consider the option Vermouth in disguise fakes it like with her martial art skills, two apparent issues appear :
- Vermouth must be certained that an expected survivor from the case 17 years ago 1. Confronted Rum 2. Knew his prosthetic eye <-- Explain Vermouth faking the visual impair symptom like Rum in order to lure that survivor out and/or investigate Okiya. Okiya option is unlikely for the former, given that : 1. He's too young to encounter Rum at that time 2. He moved into Kudo's house before the ASACA-related cases happened and didn't get involved until Vermouth met him during the BO's mission, not to mention there's hardly anyone Conan knows having a prosthetic eye or being directly involved in anything-ASACA-related to reason Okiya staying in Kudo's house WAY before Vermouth's meeting with Okiya.
As for the latter, she must have a good idea that Okiya's qualified for these traits to be worthy of her own investigation judging from her own knowledge and not from the readers
1. He must appear in more than one case involving anything-ASACA-related after Case Files 954-957 (not counting the Case Files 948-950 because the dying message is similar but not the entire case; and Mori didn't solve that case) 2. He must know that Conan/the Detective Boys has read the Haneda Kouji case 17 years ago. 3. He must understand the context behind "ASACA RUM" because normal people don't associate a type of liqueur with a person, assuming Vermouth thinks Okiya =/= Akai then it doesn't guarantee Vermouth putting unnecessary effort on gathering information.
- Vermouth must be positive that the survivor would intentionally hang around some elementary students or Prof.Agasa for unknown reasons to disguise as a school teacher herself and lure the survivor out as her true objective given that 1. Gathering information is mainly covered by Bourbon, and he has better insight than her (from her own opinion in File 955) 2. She knows some suspicious person who has been trying to get involved with Conan/Kudo's family for 17 years, even before Shinichi was born, who couldn't be Okiya since it wasn't his fault that his original apartment was burnt down and Conan actively offered him to stay in Kudo's house.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Vermouth has shown great endurance(File 434) and acrobatic skills(File 354). That shouldn't limit her from also being a good fighter just in general.
Quite a short-sighted assumption, and may I suggest it displays a rather biased view of Vermouth coming from you ? In the manga so far there's hardly a hint suggesting Vermouth as being at least familiar with close combat
(unlike Bourbon in his official debut case), let alone being so skilled at martial art that you can fake it on normal people. Good at handling firearms =/= hand-to-hand combat, same for acrobatic skills =/= offensive techniques. If you seriously think having acrobatic skills only is a BIG indication of being a martial artist then I can't help you. Good motor coordination is a typical attribute belonged in lots of these activities : performing arts, sport in general, parkour, martial arts, military training, street fighting,... And I know for certain that excelling in each of these activities requires a great deal of physical as well as mental endurance. So are the two traits you mentioned enough
to hint at Vermouth having superb combat expertise ? No.
If you plan to convince me otherwise, you can post a serious demonstration of an acrobatic gymnast/a cheerleader/a circus performer but not a martial artist
with similar moves as long as they guarantee to render a man unconscious with one (1) decisive elbow strike
like Rumi in File 980, bonus points for the person being female
. And I don't buy Hollywood "techniques".
But then again, this is just for debate fun so you have the right to ignore my suggestion. It doesn't mean I find all of your arguments plausible.
In case you ask for another example in the manga from my viewpoint, let me present these panels (File 794) :
I could only deduce that Bourbon was at least familiar with close combat taking these factors into account :
+ His quick reflex to dodge the attack
+ Him faking it with ease and alarming the others to intercept Banba's further actions
+ Gosho didn't show Bourbon's expression when dodging the attack (as if to hide the fact that he's not an ordinary waiter)
+ His justifiable contempt and deliberate ruse to provoke Banba were glaringly obvious in the whole case.
There was no strong indication that Bourbon could handle a serious fight until later we got to see a pretty convincing demonstration proving that he's quite skilled at boxing. My point is, I can consider multiple possibilities, but without substantial clues I'll remain skeptical to all of them.
Let me throw in some hot-headed Heiji's action (File 316) for good measure. I hope you don't think Heiji is actually a martial artist now. Considering his character I guess he's pretty good at street fights on top of being a skillful swordsman, but that doesn't mean much compared to Rumi's feat.
And now for some Bonus :