Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[MeiTanteixX]

So here's a weird request. No one has to follow this cause it's more of a thought exercise-ish.

Been noticing a bit of posts in this thread that have talking points roughly along the lines of "this is how Gosho does stuff" or "this fits a pattern that Gosho does", and nothing bad about recognizing patterns and stuff, I do that as well, but when combining the various "Gosho methods" or "Gosho patterns" that have been suggested in the last few pages, I can't really believe they're all compatible with each other (and some may be faulty to begin with).

So does someone mind skimming through the last few pages and compile the various "this is how Gosho does things" talking points?

I second this.

(Could of course be that it's not such a recurring thing as I'm thinking and I just made up a pattern based on one or two posts I've seen lately in this thread... wink wink)

hehe

[Jigsaw]

So here's a weird request. No one has to follow this cause it's more of a thought exercise-ish.

Been noticing a bit of posts in this thread that have talking points roughly along the lines of "this is how Gosho does stuff" or "this fits a pattern that Gosho does", and nothing bad about recognizing patterns and stuff, I do that as well, but when combining the various "Gosho methods" or "Gosho patterns" that have been suggested in the last few pages, I can't really believe they're all compatible with each other (and some may be faulty to begin with).

So does someone mind skimming through the last few pages and compile the various "this is how Gosho does things" talking points?

(Could of course be that it's not such a recurring thing as I'm thinking and I just made up a pattern based on one or two posts I've seen lately in this thread... wink wink)

Well, it's not quite what you're looking for, but Chekhov compiled a list of Gosho-isms / recurring tropes from Detective Conan on the Detective Conan Wiki. The article is still under construction, but it's a very interesting read: http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... ing_Tropes

[dccd]

Here's a list due to Kors request.
Feel free to add if sth. is missing.

1) The alcohol-gender-pattern
2) The "the criminal appears at a early stage of an arc"-pattern
3) The "whenever a (arc-related?)/(non standard) character appears, the story progresses" - pattern
4) The "Iori Muga"-pattern

Obviously 2-4 need to be defined and examined a little bit more.

[Kor]

Here's a list due to Kors request.
Feel free to add if sth. is missing.

1) The alcohol-gender-pattern
2) The "the criminal appears at a early stage of an arc"-pattern
3) The "whenever a (arc-related?)/(non standard) character appears, the story progresses" - pattern
4) The "Iori Muga"-pattern

Obviously 2-4 need to be defined and examined a little bit more.

Thanks!

Not sure what the third one means, so I'll go back to the post and see if I understand.

[PhantomWriter]

Here's a list due to Kors request.
Feel free to add if sth. is missing.

1) The alcohol-gender-pattern
2) The "the criminal appears at a early stage of an arc"-pattern
3) The "whenever a (arc-related?)/(non standard) character appears, the story progresses" - pattern
4) The "Iori Muga"-pattern

Obviously 2-4 need to be defined and examined a little bit more.

The criminal appearing early pattern is traditional for mysteries, due to how cheap it is for the audience otherwise. And, aside from some of the issues with Bourbon (where he doesn't appear as himself, just in disguise), that's been a recurring trend in the series.

As for the arc character cases, it would depend on what you consider developments. A good example would be Ikkaku Rock, where Subaru sets off Ai's Org. sense, but it's otherwise pretty lax, though that can also be chalked up to "the Bourbon arc has a lot of weird pacing issues."

What's the Iori Muga pattern?

[Kor]

The criminal appearing early pattern is traditional for mysteries, due to how cheap it is for the audience otherwise. And, aside from some of the issues with Bourbon (where he doesn't appear as himself, just in disguise), that's been a recurring trend in the series.

Even when disguised, Bourbon only appeared 55 chapters after Bourbon was first mentioned, so I don't necessarily agree it's a recurring trend. Or at the very least, if the "criminal" may appear 55 chapters into the mystery, he could as well appear 70-80 chapters later. (pacing wise we're not a whole lot better than we were in the Bourbon arc)

I also don't think the Kir stuff can even apply cause we knew she's a BO member from the get-go and didn't need to "uncover her" from a selection of several suspects. The mysteries surrounding her were of a different kind than "what's the identity of the criminal". So with that, the only BO member who appeared early and we were meant to uncover their identity was Vermouth.

If I were to assume the trend truly does apply to the series, though, and Rum appeared early (not 55-chapters-Bourbon-early), then Katsumata is the only one that fits the bill. Okay, Kuroda too, but he's way too much of a red herring.

What's the Iori Muga pattern?

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... 95#p876299

Though honestly that seems more like the construct of coincidence and I'm not really sure it means much without projection.

[MeiTanteixX]

Here's a list due to Kors request.
Feel free to add if sth. is missing.

1) The alcohol-gender-pattern
2) The "the criminal appears at a early stage of an arc"-pattern
3) The "whenever a (arc-related?)/(non standard) character appears, the story progresses" - pattern
4) The "Iori Muga"-pattern

Obviously 2-4 need to be defined and examined a little bit more.

My "examination" on these above:

1) Although the usual pattern is that male characters have hard-liquor code-names and females have wine-based(sweet) code-names, Gosho has come out and said that he's trying to frame Rum as gender ambiguous, due to it being a hard liquor that is made from sugarcane(sweet substance).

So far in the plot however, Rum has the description of males, according to BO members. The only reason Rum is suspected to be female by Conan is because Rum is suspected to be Asaka(who is said to be female). It's a suspicion that is not confirmed, yet is supposed to open the female alternative. This therefore makes the male alternative more credible than the female one.

2)

In the case of Bourbon it is important to mention that he actually did appear pretty much at the beginning as Scar Akai.
Even though it wasnt his "true form", it still dont break the actual rule or pattern Gosho uses.

@DCUniverseAficionado already pointed this out, but I'll rephrase it anyway. According to this pattern you presented, it means that the "antagonist" appears from the first case of the arc(like Vermouth[File 238-242] and Kir[File 499-504]) to the 55th chapter's case of the arc(Bourbon[File 677-679]). This pattern doesn't hold with Sakurako being the antagonist of the Rum arc, who appears 118 chapters(File 781) before Rum arc even begins(File 899).
To begin with, it's not much of a pattern with Bourbon. Vermouth's and Kir's intro both being at the start is just a coincidence.

3)

Still my key point is that in a crime-story usually every appearence of a sidecharacter has deeper sense.
It either gives the main character more info about the main crime or in this case should develop a side story.
But in this case her appearence doesnt seem to cause any progess.
So there has to be a sense which is under the surface and in my opinion it is to tell us that she was at a hotel, which lines up with
the fact that she were near Shukichi -> she´s looking for Mary.

But really loose guesses, I know.

But as I said usually every appearence means progess of the overall-story in some way.
Kuroda
First app -> Introduction
Second app -> He moved to Tokio, is now near Conan
3rd app -> He gets to know about Rumi being near Conan
4th app -> He meets Rumi
5h app -> He knows about Shinichi

Rumi
First app -> Intro
2nd app -> Wants to meet Conan or Ai, Wakita and Kuroda hear the news about her
3rd app -> meeting with Kuroda
4th app -> She knows about Shinichi

With Wakita pretty much the same.

What you mentioned above seems to be what started this 3rd pattern. I'm guessing the argument here(first bolded one) is that a "side character" like Sakurako was too developed but with no actual pay-off, and that there could be a side story/behind-the-scenes development with her. If I understood this correctly, then yeah, she does break out from the norm. Maybe she will have more relevance in Chiba and Naeko's subplot, or maybe she will have relevance in the main plot. Both are possible.
The way you worded out the 3rd pattern however has a different implication than the last one I bolded above. The bolded one says "every appearance". The 3rd pattern says "(arc-related?)/(non standard) character". If you meant the latter, then you should also add other "non standard" characters as examples. Not just "arc-related" ones.

4) Pretty straightforward and clear through image. We have a pattern of appearances that are closely tied with Rum and/or Rum suspects' appearances, structure-wise. Out of four, three which followed the exact same pattern and one, which as @serinox mentioned, deviates from them, but overall is even more tied to the Rum suspects' appearances, since they happen in the same case.

Though honestly that seems more like the construct of coincidence and I'm not really sure it means much without projection.

you definitely don't seem sure.

[PhantomWriter]

Huh...

The problem I see with the Iori pattern is that you could then use that as an argument that Wakita is in the Organization or that Chikara is Rum. Wakita appears immediately after the Soul Detective arc and the dialogue about Gin wanting to kill Kogoro. Chikara appears immediately after Rum is named as a threat and in the arc just before the major details of the Kohji case are given.

[MeiTanteixX]

Huh...

The problem I see with the Iori pattern is that you could then use that as an argument that Wakita is in the Organization or that Chikara is Rum. Wakita appears immediately after the Soul Detective arc and the dialogue about Gin wanting to kill Kogoro. Chikara appears immediately after Rum is named as a threat and in the arc just before the major details of the Kohji case are given.

If you are directly trying to compare those examples to Muga's pattern, then the Chikara example is more in line with this topic than the Wakita one(since we are talking about the appearances case-structure-wise). The difference between Muga and Chikara however is that there's no actual pattern with Chikara, due to his limited appearances. I would call three similar incidents a pattern.

[dccd]

1) So the alcohol-pattern wasnt so far as I see.

2) The existence of the early-pattern is somewhat unsure. Atleast it's hard to prove/disprove it at the moment.
So the question "did Rum already appear?" remains.

When I was thinking about this, Goshos statement in the Q/A crossed my mind:
You said in Animal Crossing that Rum's already appeared. Has Rum's name and face appeared?
A: His/her name haven't shown up, in a sense! Maybe his/her face has appeared...

Really dunno what to read into this. There are a lof of possible interpretations.
Maybe someone has a good idea.

3) The "progess-pattern".
Unfortunatelly I cant go through the whole Bourbon-Arc due to time issues, but atleast in the current arc the statement
"Whenever a plot-related character appears, the main-story progresses"
seems pretty alive if you compare the Kuroda/Rumi/(Wakita)-list.

I'm asking myself the question if Yonehara is a plot-related character or just a Naeko/Chiba-extra?
So far I admit that we have not a single clear hint that she is in any way related to the main-plot.
I would really be into the second option if there wasn´t this hotel-case where she simply doesn't even mention them both.
It's like Makoto appearing without a single word about Sonoko, Kazuha without Heiji or Eri without Kogoro.
Still it might be really silly reading so much into it, still it remains somewhat strange.

Anyways we will know next time.
If the statement (She is looking for Mary) is true, then it's obvious that she will appear next time at a hotel again or (since this would be really obvious)
atleast in the enviroment of Sera.

Lets wait and see.

[Kor]

Though honestly that seems more like the construct of coincidence and I'm not really sure it means much without projection.

you definitely don't seem sure.

Are you responding to very specific words within a bigger sentence? Cause that's one way to lose sight of context. (I also can't really tell if you're being sarcastic here or not, so I can't say I'm fully certain what's the point of this reply...?)

"Whenever a plot-related character appears, the main-story progresses"

Ah wait, now I get it.
In that case, I can't say I fully agree with this idea either. At least not on a 100% level. There are various instances of Sera, Amuro and Okiya appearances which don't progress the story.

[MeiTanteixX]

(I also can't really tell if you're being sarcastic here or not, so I can't say I'm fully certain what's the point of this reply...?)

sorry for the mislead, it's the above.

[PhantomWriter]

I made a mistake, in part due to a binge re-read. Wakita appears immediately after the Ripples flashback, after Conan realized Mary was poisoned and starts speculating. Still unsure of how I feel about that structure speculation.

However, there are a few things that I've been thinking about:

• Kuroda's memory implies he saw Kohji's corpse.
• Each of the suspect characters for Rum and Asaka is approaching different characters in different ways: Wakita's various actions make it look like he wants to get close to Kogoro, a bit too eagerly if you ask me. Kuroda's already aware of Conan being the mind behind the man and directly asks for his help. Wakasa's approaching Conan cautiously and trying to test him, while also giving him hints. Mary is using Masumi as an intermediary and moving from place to place, but she's to some extent soured on the idea of meeting him after the Soul Detective arc. Iori's approaching Heiji because of Momiji's orders. Chikara and Shuukichi are involved with shogi and thus meet in that context. Kuroda and Wakasa both show hostility toward the other due to suspicions about who the other could be.
• Despite how Wakita is supposed to be new to the place he works, and the case is during the summer (the next case with Wakasa acknowledges that autumn is there and the previous cases were during summer), yet he knows that the place has started serving sanma since autumn. Menu changes are rare for a new employee to learn about, if it's been a while since they were incorporated, in my experience.
• The message "ASACA RUM." How would Kohji know the name Rum or that it was significant or that anyone could derive the real meaning? (Unless his message was altered or he was in deeper with Amanda's intelligence agency ties than we thought...?)

[DCUniverseAficionado]

• Kuroda's memory implies he saw Kohji's corpse.
• Kuroda's already aware of Conan being the mind behind the man and directly asks for his help.

Given that we didn't see Koji's body until Hyoe looks at the case details, it's likely he was there.

And he's not the only one focused on Shinichi/Conan...

• Wakasa's approaching Conan cautiously and trying to test him, while also giving him hints.

...and what is the relationship between she and Hyoe?...

• Kuroda and Wakasa both show hostility toward the other due to suspicions about who the other could be.

It really strikes me, giving the red herring vibes I'm getting from both of them, that they aren't true antagonists (e.g., Gin). We also happen to have two protagonists arrayed against each other due to a misunderstanding (Shuichi/Subaru and Rei/Toru/Bourbon), so it wouldn't be a stretch to see it happen between Rumi and Hyoe.

• Wakita's various actions make it look like he wants to get close to Kogoro, a bit too eagerly if you ask me.
• Despite how Wakita is supposed to be new to the place he works, and the case is during the summer (the next case with Wakasa acknowledges that autumn is there and the previous cases were during summer), yet he knows that the place has started serving sanma since autumn. Menu changes are rare for a new employee to learn about, if it's been a while since they were incorporated, in my experience.

Just like Rei/Toru—thus giving the impression that, since he (a self-proclaimed detective working in an eatery next to the Mori Detective Agency) turned out to be Bourbon, Kanenori (a self-proclaimed detective working in an eatery next to the Mori Detective Agency) will turn out to be Rum. That really strikes me as a red herring.

I'm really not sure if he's a BO member (who's not Rum), or if he's Rei's/Toru's boxing coach, like Chek once suggested (maybe such a connection to Rei/Toru means he also has a connection to the NPA).

• Mary is using Masumi as an intermediary and moving from place to place, but she's to some extent soured on the idea of meeting him after the Soul Detective arc.

Presumably because Shinichi/Conan "is nothing like the boy we met 10 years ago." Any ideas as to what the difference between actual 7-year-old Shinichi during Ripples and technical 7-year-old Shinichi/Conan is? Was it something that happened during Detective of Souls—him carelessly dropping his bow-tie, perhaps? Her realizing that his presence is a sign that someone's about to drop dead, perhaps, hence the "all kinds of monsters lurk in the dark" comment? Beyond those, I'm just not sure what it could be—a lot of it has to do with the fact that she wanted to meet him before (903–905/787–788) Detective of Souls, but by 953/864, she's telling Masumi to not let her guard down around him and seemingly comparing him to a monster lurking in the dark.

• Chikara and Shuukichi are involved with shogi and thus meet in that context.

And that's a key point of this arc, to me. Rum's signature act is the murder of a shogi player, one who inspired his future brother-in-law to become one, as well—and said future-brother-in-law was also the son of a man who apparently got himself killed by looking too closely into the murder, and the brother of an FBI agent who infiltrated the BO—who took the lead in the first case of the Rum arc (899–902/785–786), and went on to mention Koji to Yumi, leading to Shiho/Ai telling Shinichi/Conan about his name being on the APTX list, thus kicking off the Koji Haneda plot thread (945–947/849–850). And who was Shukichi's opponent in both those cases? Chikara, whose name was actually provided to us... but not in a name box. So we have Rum, the Akai family, and Shogi...

Also, Rumi seems to have a shogi piece with her—it would even appear that Koji was clutching a shogi piece in the palm of his hand as he held the scissors in a defensive grip.

• The message "ASACA RUM." How would Kohji know the name Rum or that it was significant or that anyone could derive the real meaning? (Unless his message was altered or he was in deeper with Amanda's intelligence agency ties than we thought...?)

That's assuming the message is just ASACA RUM—which assumes that there isn't more to Koji's dying message than the mirror.

[MeiTanteixX]

So the question "did Rum already appear?" remains.

When I was thinking about this, Goshos statement in the Q/A crossed my mind:
You said in Animal Crossing that Rum's already appeared. Has Rum's name and face appeared?
A: His/her name haven't shown up, in a sense! Maybe his/her face has appeared...

Really dunno what to read into this. There are a lof of possible interpretations.
Maybe someone has a good idea.

just realized that this post bypassed my attention.
Here's my interpretation:

"His/her name haven't shown up, in a sense!" ---> Rum's real name hasn't appeared, but his alias has.
"Maybe his/her face has appeared...?" ----> I think it's ambiguous enough to go either way(since it's a Japanese translation, the underlying tone of this sentence could be more ambiguous than what it seems in english).

I think that Gosho was trying to imply that although his name hasn't shown up, something else has(hence why Gosho said "in a sense"). If "his name" is meant to be "his real name", then "something else" is most likely "an alias"/"his fake name".

As for the ambiguous answer about Rum's face, if we follow the interpretation above(that Rum's alias has appeared), then by looking at the characters in Rum arc before File 984(roughly around the time of the interview), whose name has appeared but not the face, we will only end up with Asaka. If we were to call Asaka a red-herring, then the natural conclusion would be that Rum's face has in fact appeared along with the fake name(unless one thinks that Rum's fake name has appeared before the arc started).