Conan's Pacing: Are We FINALLY at the Beginning of the End of Conan?

[Tsuburaya Mitsuhiko]

Actually, if DC and MK will ever end, I think MK will end before DC.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Actually, if DC and MK will ever end, I think MK will end before DC.

How come? Why would he end MK before DC?

MK's has had 33 files in 27 years. DC? 930 files in just under 22 years. Gosho writes an MK story every 3-5 years. MK is much easier for him, I think—it provides a break from the DC grind. Why would he want to end the relaxing periods that MK can bring when that means he'll only have the DC grind. MK has far less characters, plots, stories than DC—why waste all that opportunity for more development and additions... and just plain fun?

[Tenken]

TBH, I hope to see the ending soon. I used to be a huge fan of DC, but since long ago, I only selectively read chapters where the B.O. or Kaito KID appears, because the rest is full of fillers and boring cases. The cases have stopped being interesting... I just hope to see the ending before Gosho Aoyama dies.

[k11chi]

TBH, I hope to see the ending soon. I used to be a huge fan of DC, but since long ago, I only selectively read chapters where the B.O. or Kaito KID appears, because the rest is full of fillers and boring cases. The cases have stopped being interesting... I just hope to see the ending before Gosho Aoyama dies.

Why would you want to see the ending, if you don`t care about it anymore? He already said it will be a happy ending, and that the reader can already imagine how the BO will be taken down with Amuro and Akai in the squad. You see, Detective Conan is simply a detective fiction series with an overarching plot, so the series has a specific target audience - people looking for different types of cases. After going through the motions with what you think are the "interesting cases" (serial killer running rampant in a sealed-off-from-outside-world setting full of high stakes and suspense and emotional reveals - the usual generic murder mystery plot that, contrary to popular belief from all these Then There Were None ripoff series, does NOT represent the genre in any way, shape or form), aren't what Conan ever set out to do in the first place.

Basically what the series does the best compared to any other is that it offers a ridicilously wide variety of short-story cases that feel like an authentic short story in its pacing, length and information it offers while building these character arcs. The amount of information Gosho is capable of sharing with the drawings and dialogue play a crucial role in this (it's not about how many pages there are in a chapter, it's about what kind of cases there are in a volume). The series does use all the genre's tropes but in its own style (supernatural, golden-age, more modern, rival detective, thief, manipulator killer etc.etc.), instead of being cookie-cutter detective fiction, however it's never too over the top. The overarching plot just allows the characters to be multi-dimensional and have multiple identities to them compared to its rival series, but being a long-runner in its style, the status quo must stay, which is why these side characters exist anyway, to make it all the more interesting.

Anyway, right now mystery-wise the RUM cases are definitely the more debated ones, so it makes no sense to throw the effort put into building up the story just because someone wants it to end. We NEED to see these character arcs reach their conclusion, that's how the greatest cases in general are created. What we don't need is info-dump chapters.

[Antiyonder]

Why would you want to see the ending, if you don`t care about it anymore?

The poster above didn't say anything about not caring anymore, and wanting it to end sooner doesn't suggest such.

Afterall even if some don't believe the series is in any quality decline, wouldn't you want to end it before any quality slip so that it's more fondly remembered rather than being a series that you liked for the most part but had an arguable weaker half. Especially if extending it is done more for the money than actually to further make a more solid series.

He already said it will be a happy ending, and that the reader can already imagine how the BO will be taken down with Amuro and Akai in the squad.

Sure, but as the story was originally intended for a much, much shorter run, certain endgame developments may in the end feel underwhelming or anti-climatic.

For example, it seems to be a common knowledge or belief that say Haibara is withhold information from the main cast. Information that would give them the means to ending the organization, but she withholds it on the grounds of someone like Conan getting careless with it and dooming everyone.

With that in mind, it's been about 20 years I believe since her first appearance and considering how long that particular status quo has been in place, I feel like it would be hard to come up with a natural in story reason for her to come clean with any secrets she's been holding onto. As such I expect it to feel more like a thinly veiled message towards the readers like "Ok, the story is about to finally end so now I'm going to be able to give exposition to move the plot forward".

You see, Detective Conan is simply a detective fiction series with an overarching plot, so the series has a specific target audience - people looking for different types of cases. After going through the motions with what you think are the "interesting cases" (serial killer running rampant in a sealed-off-from-outside-world setting full of high stakes and suspense and emotional reveals - the usual generic murder mystery plot that, contrary to popular belief from all these Then There Were None ripoff series, does NOT represent the genre in any way, shape or form), aren't what Conan ever set out to do in the first place.

Right, but at the end of the day, the author still chose to add an overarching plot. Sorry, but Conan's IQ could easily have been justified in story as him being a child prodigy. I mean the Preschool story even has a very young Shinichi being smart enough to make such a character workable.

So yeah, it just seems like it would have worked out for Gosho just the same to make a pure episodic detective story without the whole "teenager fed a poison by a secret criminal organization making him appear to be 6 years old again". Heck, a good portion of the fanbase even seems to read more for the more episodic cases anyway and don't seem to care as much for the story arc elements, which is fine ad a legit way to enjoy the series.

But even if the arc was always planned to be secondary, it too is a legit reason for people to take an interest in the series and voice their concerns that they aren't being done as well as the could, even considering that it's not a top priority.

The overarching plot just allows the characters to be multi-dimensional and have multiple identities to them compared to its rival series, but being a long-runner in its style, the status quo must stay, which is why these side characters exist anyway, to make it all the more interesting.

Arguably to a degree, the "status quo must stay" can to a certain point hinder some character's ability to be multi-dimensional. Plus some elements could be potentially changed without compromising the ability to continue the story for more years, possibly decades with the only real drawback is not being able to rehash past stories for the 100th figurative time.

[k11chi]

That's why there are story arcs in Detective Conan. What it ultimately means is that we get mystery that builds up over the course of the arcs, and that's exactly what Gosho is doing (and always has been - this concept includes cases not related to BO, too).

[Antiyonder]

That's why there are story arcs in Detective Conan. What it ultimately means is that we get mystery that builds up over the course of the arcs, and that's exactly what Gosho is doing (and always has been - this concept includes cases not related to BO, too).

Sure but there are other areas that could benefit from changes outside the mysteries. Changes that would greatly shake things up while not jeopardizing the ability to do decades more of Conan stories.

And really even with the status quo is god notion, it's not really a good move to be beating the audience over the head with said notion in-universe. Takes you out of the world.

[yutella]

Basically what the series does the best compared to any other is that it offers a ridicilously wide variety of short-story cases that feel like an authentic short story in its pacing, length and information it offers while building these character arcs. The amount of information Gosho is capable of sharing with the drawings and dialogue play a crucial role in this (it's not about how many pages there are in a chapter, it's about what kind of cases there are in a volume).

I like DC and spend money on purchasing the hard copies over the years, even for the non BO cases. For entertainment purpose. But fairly speaking, I think the short stories aren't as interesting as around the first 30 volumes. It gets pretty much repetitive with the same format, plain characters and plot. I don't know if you read Q.E.D (also a detective manga), but it beats DC in terms of cases variety, storytelling creativity and amount of information. It is a matter of personal taste after all. In short, DC is not the best detective story some people can find (with the exception for the BO plot, and probably the non-canon movies). So yes, it's normal many people get impatient with DC and only want it to focus on its best part.

I still appreciate them as they are there to help build up the tension for BO plot. But I suspect Gosho only wants to keep it as long as he could. DC has become a brand, a commercial success, and even has a lot of cultural impacts. Even I would also feel sad if DC ends, because I have stuck with it since 1996 and it's like part of my childhood. But I do hope it gets down to the main show soon.

[k11chi]

Basically what the series does the best compared to any other is that it offers a ridicilously wide variety of short-story cases that feel like an authentic short story in its pacing, length and information it offers while building these character arcs. The amount of information Gosho is capable of sharing with the drawings and dialogue play a crucial role in this (it's not about how many pages there are in a chapter, it's about what kind of cases there are in a volume).

I like DC and spend money on purchasing the hard copies over the years, even for the non BO cases. For entertainment purpose. But fairly speaking, I think the short stories aren't as interesting as around the first 30 volumes. It gets pretty much repetitive with the same format, plain characters and plot. I don't know if you read Q.E.D (also a detective manga), but it beats DC in terms of cases variety, storytelling creativity and amount of information. It is a matter of personal taste after all. In short, DC is not the best detective story some people can find (with the exception for the BO plot, and probably the non-canon movies). So yes, it's normal many people get impatient with DC and only want it to focus on its best part.

I still appreciate them as they are there to help build up the tension for BO plot. But I suspect Gosho only wants to keep it as long as he could. DC has become a brand, a commercial success, and even has a lot of cultural impacts. Even I would also feel sad if DC ends, because I have stuck with it since 1996 and it's like part of my childhood. But I do hope it gets down to the main show soon.

I've read Q.E.D. and it's definitely decent but amount of content does not come even close to DC come on now. The paneling game is on another level, while Q.E.D is more akin to a webcomic. Superficially there can be three things happening at the same time at one moment of DC while Q.E.D. uses the white panels to focus on one thing at a time, and that's not counting the things that go behind the scenes to arrive at a point at the end of certain cases.

Also variety of cases is subjective yes, considering DC has dozens of different types of cases, the problem is that there's a ball spinning on a table of case types and Gosho picks the one it hits.
There are characters with far more layers to them too.

[yutella]

Spoiler:

Basically what the series does the best compared to any other is that it offers a ridiculously wide variety of short-story cases that feel like an authentic short story in its pacing, length and information it offers while building these character arcs. The amount of information Gosho is capable of sharing with the drawings and dialogue play a crucial role in this (it's not about how many pages there are in a chapter, it's about what kind of cases there are in a volume).

I like DC and spend money on purchasing the hard copies over the years, even for the non BO cases. For entertainment purpose. But fairly speaking, I think the short stories aren't as interesting as around the first 30 volumes. It gets pretty much repetitive with the same format, plain characters and plot. I don't know if you read Q.E.D (also a detective manga), but it beats DC in terms of cases variety, storytelling creativity and amount of information. It is a matter of personal taste after all. In short, DC is not the best detective story some people can find (with the exception for the BO plot, and probably the non-canon movies). So yes, it's normal many people get impatient with DC and only want it to focus on its best part.

I still appreciate them as they are there to help build up the tension for BO plot. But I suspect Gosho only wants to keep it as long as he could. DC has become a brand, a commercial success, and even has a lot of cultural impacts. Even I would also feel sad if DC ends, because I have stuck with it since 1996 and it's like part of my childhood. But I do hope it gets down to the main show soon.

I've read Q.E.D. and it's definitely decent but amount of content does not come even close to DC come on now. The paneling game is on another level, while Q.E.D is more akin to a webcomic. Superficially there can be three things happening at the same time at one moment of DC while Q.E.D. uses the white panels to focus on one thing at a time, and that's not counting the things that go behind the scenes to arrive at a point at the end of certain cases.

Also variety of cases is subjective yes, considering DC has dozens of different types of cases, the problem is that there's a ball spinning on a table of case types and Gosho picks the one it hits.
There are characters with far more layers to them too.

Just to reiterate, I like both of the series. They just have different values and entertain me in a different way. As I said it's up to each individual. I like DC for the amazing BO plot, while I find QED cases more intriguing and have better storytelling style. The main characters in DC are better developed (Haibara and Akai are among my favourite characters of all mangas), but minor characters in each QED cases are better built in my opinion. Anyway I don't want to prolong this comparison as it will get far off topic.

It's great you can enjoy every aspect of DC, including the paneling style (I mean it, it's good to be able to enjoy everything). But as you were asking the other person above why they would want DC to end "if they don't care about it anymore", I was just trying to explain to you why. The regular cases have stopped being interesting to some people, but they still keep reading: because in reality, over time what makes them stick to it is the BO plot. What DC was meant to be (a normal detective story or a fighting gangsters story) is irrelevant to what people "want". And not just because we already know "it will have a good ending", we will not look forward to how it plays out. Do we know Harry Potter have a good ending and that Voldemort will be defeated? Yes. But we still keep waiting for 7 novels because we want to know how the story goes.

I believe if DC didn't include the BO plot, the success wouldn't be that great and the series would have ended way sooner.

[k11chi]

Spoiler:

Basically what the series does the best compared to any other is that it offers a ridicilously wide variety of short-story cases that feel like an authentic short story in its pacing, length and information it offers while building these character arcs. The amount of information Gosho is capable of sharing with the drawings and dialogue play a crucial role in this (it's not about how many pages there are in a chapter, it's about what kind of cases there are in a volume).

I like DC and spend money on purchasing the hard copies over the years, even for the non BO cases. For entertainment purpose. But fairly speaking, I think the short stories aren't as interesting as around the first 30 volumes. It gets pretty much repetitive with the same format, plain characters and plot. I don't know if you read Q.E.D (also a detective manga), but it beats DC in terms of cases variety, storytelling creativity and amount of information. It is a matter of personal taste after all. In short, DC is not the best detective story some people can find (with the exception for the BO plot, and probably the non-canon movies). So yes, it's normal many people get impatient with DC and only want it to focus on its best part.

I still appreciate them as they are there to help build up the tension for BO plot. But I suspect Gosho only wants to keep it as long as he could. DC has become a brand, a commercial success, and even has a lot of cultural impacts. Even I would also feel sad if DC ends, because I have stuck with it since 1996 and it's like part of my childhood. But I do hope it gets down to the main show soon.

I've read Q.E.D. and it's definitely decent but amount of content does not come even close to DC come on now. The paneling game is on another level, while Q.E.D is more akin to a webcomic. Superficially there can be three things happening at the same time at one moment of DC while Q.E.D. uses the white panels to focus on one thing at a time, and that's not counting the things that go behind the scenes to arrive at a point at the end of certain cases.

Also variety of cases is subjective yes, considering DC has dozens of different types of cases, the problem is that there's a ball spinning on a table of case types and Gosho picks the one it hits.
There are characters with far more layers to them too.

Just to reiterate, I like both of the series. They just have different values and entertain me in a different way. As I said it's up to each individual. I like DC for the amazing BO plot, while I find QED cases more intriguing and have better storytelling style. The main characters in DC are better developed (Haibara and Akai are among my favourite characters of all mangas), but minor characters in each QED cases are better built in my opinion. Anyway I don't want to prolong this comparison as it will get far off topic.

It's great you can enjoy every aspect of DC, including the paneling style (I mean it, it's good to be able to enjoy everything). But as you were asking the other person above why they would want DC to end "if they don't care about it anymore", I was just trying to explain to you why. The regular cases have stopped being interesting to some people, but they still keep reading: because in reality, over time what makes them stick to it is the BO plot. What DC was meant to be (a normal detective story or a fighting gangsters story) is irrelevant to what people "want". And not just because we already know "it will have a good ending", we will not look forward to how it plays out. Do we know Harry Potter have a good ending and that Voldemort will be defeated? Yes. But we still keep waiting for 7 novels because we want to know how the story goes.

I believe if DC didn't include the BO plot, the success wouldn't be that great and the series would have ended way sooner.

What matters for success is almost always being at the right place at the right time. The series was there during the golden days of anime TV ratings, which is long gone.

[Antiyonder]

I believe if DC didn't include the BO plot, the success wouldn't be that great and the series would have ended way sooner.

I'm still not sure on that. The fact that the status quo is heavily enforced (mainly for the characters introduced within the first 10 chapters than anyone else) suggests that the bulk of the fan base is just fine with the mysteries and could careless about the story taking a more creative chance. Doing just mysteries, minus the serialized plot, I don't think most of those segments of the fanbase (more power to them) would really care.

Plus, The Simpsons, which started much sooner and more simplistic never even promised more than clever comedy and is still on the air.

I think the main problem is that Gosho is just in that category of writers who sees risk taking as a major no-no and doesn't care to do his best unless he feels that ok isn't enough for sales.

1. Now I'm in the segment of the fanbase that feels like the story as a whole was decent enough from the beginning to the end of the Vermouth arc and even to a point, The Clash of Red & Black arc. Even with the status quo mostly sticking in place, it felt like Gosho put his effort into the story as a whole and not just the mysteries or the accuracy of details on landmarks the story visits (those two are still points I'll concede he does seem to retain passion over).

Take The Desperate Revival and the Shiragami arc (including the last portion of the story with the murder on the highway. Even upon rereading the DR story it just has that feeling where anything can happen and you can't count on the status quo or editorial decisions to protect the characters.

The latter has a nice early case, but after that up until the end of the second case in the story it just feels like it's beating you over the head with the message "Status quo is god and changing it is blasphemy critical sinners".

I could be wrong, but Gosho has apparently stated several times his belief that the manga would end at certain points sooner. And I think that explains why the earlier portion of the story is arguably better. If he had been working towards ending the story, then it makes sense that he'd be trying to better pace things to bring about the end.

Heck I remember an old post made by Kudo Shinichi (I think) that suggests that maybe The Desperate Revival ironically came too soon. It's easily one of the best arcs outside the BO stuff, and again despite the outcome it just feels highly creative and exciting. And it seems like something that works more as a penultimate chapter that helping to lead towards the final half of the story, and since that has yet to happen it just adds a feeling of disappointment as we don't get effort like that more often.

But as of the Bourbon arc and after, it just feels like Gosho has since then recognized that the majority of the readership will continue to pick up the story even if he restricts most of his efforts to the mystery and occasional locales.

I say this because if he was really interested in the characterization half, there are ways to make some big changes without compromising the formula or getting rid of it, ways that Gosho doesn't seem to seem to consider or care to utilize. I mean it's easy to say the story should have ended about 6 to 10 months after it was conceived and distributed, heck, I feel that way myself, but I feel that if Gosho has to just keep going until he has exhausted himself he could at least find more creative/substantial ways to achieve the same effect. Give if you want to get and all.

[Haibara & Aika ryona]

Thank you! I’m glad someone realizes the magnitude of Rum’s reveal. He’s the second in command, which is pretty much a confirmation that the arc after this one is the final one, the boss arc. So yes, in a way this is the first concrete confirmation we have that we are nearing the end. Still, the signs to this have all been there for a while. I made a topic about this around over two years ago: http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9183

I always say that conan will take 1000 episodes or more by 50, or 100 episodes, or something like this

[Antiyonder]

Honestly, even if Gosho is nearing the end and we get better pacing, I feel like at best the improvements now are more in vein of damage control than making a decent series better.

Even if certain elements have to have development put on hold, I feel that there still should have been more of an attempt to keep things interesting beyond the cases throughout the series and holding back because the end is nowhere in sight.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

I think the main problem is that Gosho is just in that category of writers who sees risk taking as a major no-no and doesn't care to do his best unless he feels that ok isn't enough for sales.

*Stares at the most recent Magic Kaito files*
*Cries silently*
Honestly though, now that Rum is a thing DC's apparently been selling well. I've been in stores where volume 93 is listed number two in manga sales (alongside MK5).
The whole Akai vs Amuro dynamic that's going on too seems to make the series fairly popular at this point (half of the merchandise I find here in Japan seems to be focused on picking one of the two in a manner I can only describe as the Edward VS Jacob syndrome). It's clear the fans want something exciting and, considering the status-quoitis Gosho seems to suffer from I honestly hopes he gives himself the time to deliver some actual tangible process...

Also still pretty salty (yet not so salty because cool Kaito depictions are cool) about the recent MK stuff.
It's so frecking annoying when you see Aoko pull a Ran when seeing Kaito's face...