Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 945-947

[Kor]

If he doesn't, then why did he even bother? Why even fill out a marriage form in advance?

The thing I was trying to imply, is that Shuukichi's actions and desire are simply not internally consistent with each other, and your supposition reflects that as well. The dude wants to marry Yumi but everything about his approach (and how he wants this to happen apparently) just puts this desire of his away from him. Based on the marriage registration, he needs to be a meijin in order to marry her (who cares how long Yumi is supposed to wait for him to fill out these conditions). The dude CONDITIONED FOR HIMSELF under what circumstances it's "allowed" for him and Yumi to get married. This is probably the most appropriate example of how much inconsistent Shuukichi's actions and desire have been with each other.

I'll just put here a few more things from this very recent file:

"When I've collected all seven, I'll contact you myself..."

"It seems like he's collected all seven... but he never bothered to bring it up at all!"

----

After Yumi asked him once if she can get another envelope if she lost the one he gave her, he said: "Definitely not. The thing I gave you is one of a kind in the whole world! There is absolutely no substitute for it."

This is yet another condition. So again I say, while Shuukichi's end goal is marrying Yumi, the long and conditioned path he took (and irrationally created for himself) does really badly in reflecting his end goal. If anything, it simply reflects of all of Shuukichi's horrible tendencies.

Serious question, what do you think would have happened if Yumi had outright rejected Shuukichi instead of relapsing into a relationship? Shuukichi I think is the most oblivious romance partner detached from appropriate social standards of dating so far, topping Shiratori (creeper who didn't know when to quit), Sato (oblivious), Chiba (oblivious), and Heiji (oblivious and stubborn). Do you think Shuukichi would try to persist anyway and become a stalker?

My feeling is yes, because Shuukichi has a one track mind. I don't think he would be able to get over Yumi so easily. He tends to seize on something he thinks is a good idea and then follow it to the bitter end, like how he got his idea to capture all the Shogi titles from a single offhand comment Yumi made. (This tendency is not unlike his older brother and his missions I guess. Masumi seems to be only semi-reasonable one in this family.) I don't think he really considered Yumi's feelings when he handed her that envelope and went radio silent. He did it because he thought it would be appropriate or impressive. To his credit, it seems to be working, but if he had misjudged Yumi just a little, or she had found another man to love...

I kind of wish we had a normal criminal case that would explore this idea. An intelligent but obsessed guy using a Moriarty-like strategy to get his girl back, a girl who can't adequately defend herself because she can't match his intelligence. It doesn't even have to be a murder, just a Kogoro case where the girl comes to the agency pleading her case that no one else will believe.

I don't believe in "what would have happened if" questions when discussing fiction. I think Shuukichi's atrocious personality speaks for itself even without asking what would have happened if Yumi rejected him. The thing is that I very much doubt Gosho intended Shuukichi to come off this way. The narrative almost justifies his actions and tries to present him as this adorkable guy, so Gosho seems pretty unaware regarding how Shuukichi actually comes across.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

The thing I was trying to imply, is that Shuukichi's actions and desire are simply not internally consistent with each other, and your supposition reflects that as well. The dude wants to marry Yumi but everything about his approach (and how he wants this to happen apparently) just puts this desire of his away from him. Based on the marriage registration, he needs to be a meijin in order to marry her (who cares how long Yumi is supposed to wait for him to fill out these conditions). The dude CONDITIONED FOR HIMSELF under what circumstances it's "allowed" for him and Yumi to get married. This is probably the most appropriate example of how much inconsistent Shuukichi's actions and desire have been with each other.

I'll just put here a few more things from this very recent file:

"When I've collected all seven, I'll contact you myself..."

"It seems like he's collected all seven... but he never bothered to bring it up at all!"

After Yumi asked him once if she can get another envelope if she lost the one he gave her, he said: "Definitely not. The thing I gave you is one of a kind in the whole world! There is absolutely no substitute for it."

This is yet another condition. So again I say, while Shuukichi's end goal is marrying Yumi, the long and conditioned path he took (and irrationally created for himself) does really badly in reflecting his end goal. If anything, it simply reflects of all of Shuukichi's horrible tendencies.

I think Shuukichi's atrocious personality speaks for itself even without asking what would have happened if Yumi rejected him. The thing is that I very much doubt Gosho intended Shuukichi to come off this way. The narrative almost justifies his actions and tries to present him as this adorkable guy, so Gosho seems pretty unaware regarding how Shuukichi actually comes across.

So he's horrible and atrocious because he's single-mindedly oblivious to her and focused on this plan of his, and, yet, doesn't want to finish what he started. Those adjectives sound more appropriate for the average "victim of the week." If I may ask, what other recurring characters come off like this to you?

Also, does the fact that he's only appeared for this romance sub-plot and that seems to be his only purpose compound everything else you've mentioned?

Serious question, what do you think would have happened if Yumi had outright rejected Shuukichi instead of relapsing into a relationship? Shuukichi I think is the most oblivious romance partner detached from appropriate social standards of dating so far, topping Shiratori (creeper who didn't know when to quit), Sato (oblivious), Chiba (oblivious), and Heiji (oblivious and stubborn). Do you think Shuukichi would try to persist anyway and become a stalker?

My feeling is yes, because Shuukichi has a one track mind. I don't think he would be able to get over Yumi so easily. He tends to seize on something he thinks is a good idea and then follow it to the bitter end, like how he got his idea to capture all the Shogi titles from a single offhand comment Yumi made. (This tendency is not unlike his older brother and his missions I guess. Masumi seems to be only semi-reasonable one in this family.) I don't think he really considered Yumi's feelings when he handed her that envelope and went radio silent. He did it because he thought it would be appropriate or impressive. To his credit, it seems to be working, but if he had misjudged Yumi just a little, or she had found another man to love...

I kind of wish we had a normal criminal case that would explore this idea. An intelligent but obsessed guy using a Moriarty-like strategy to get his girl back, a girl who can't adequately defend herself because she can't match his intelligence. It doesn't even have to be a murder, just a Kogoro case where the girl comes to the agency pleading her case that no one else will believe.

Gosho's not on the side of stalkers (as far as I can tell... maybe you've seen something that can be interpreted as pro-stalker, but not what I've seen), so I don't think he'd have Shukichi become that. Look at Kogoro and Eri, they do see and still have feelings for each other, but we don't see them actively seek out each other, let alone as single-mindedly as Shukichi. If Kogoro was a reasonably nice guy before Eri left him, then maybe Shukichi would undergo a similar change if the woman he loved declared that she wasn't just dumping him, but that she wanted nothing to do with him. It would certainly set up room for character development.

Once we get official confirmation that he's the middle brother (it may even happen in File 947, which is, in fact, 100 files after his first appearance), we need to find out what he knows about his family's whereabouts, and their involvement in current events. Until we know that, I don't know what he'd do or wouldn't do about it, given his focus on Yumi.

This case seems to be pointing towards the conclusion of this sub-plot, though—find the envelope and accept the proposal or Shukichi's ten years of work (no matter how misguided and inconsiderate they may be) may very well be for nothing.

By the way, you might want to take Heiji off that list, considering recent developments (or, at least, take out the "oblivious" adjective).

Also, is your mention of Shuichi due to him hiding himself from Shiho/Ai, him lying to Jodie about his "death," and essentially acting like the head FBI agent when he wasn't, and ignoring authority (though it didn't help that Gosho dumbed down everyone but him in the FBI from the Kir arc, onwards).

[MoonRaven]

Right when I thought this is a nice and different couple that will be interesting to watch... Then I read these analyzes and am depreseed over this.

[MeiTanteixX]

Also, is your mention of Shuichi due to him hiding himself from Shiho/Ai, him lying to Jodie about his "death," and essentially acting like the head FBI agent when he wasn't, and ignoring authority (though it didn't help that Gosho dumbed down everyone but him in the FBI from the Kir arc, onwards).

I think Chek was referring to Akai's single-minded objective to take down the Black organization, and therefore doing all kinds of sacrifices and the "heartless actions" you mentioned...

Right when I thought this is a nice and different couple that will be interesting to watch... Then I read these analyzes and am depreseed over this.

heh,...
You got affected easily, considering these analysis' are debating against each other... I'm following this with my own opinion in mind hearing things I agree with from one side, and things I disagree with from the other side, and vice versa...

[DCUniverseAficionado]

You got affected easily, considering these analysis' are debating against each other... I'm following this with my own opinion in mind hearing things I agree with from one side, and things I disagree with from the other side, and vice versa...

I still like the couple in spite of the critiques, while being well-aware of them. I'm by no means against the position of those who don't like this romance. "Why did you even respond to Kor's post, then?" Because I wanted to hear what he had to say when I offered a counterpoint. I like it when people elaborate.

[Uchiha Shadow]

You got affected easily, considering these analysis' are debating against each other... I'm following this with my own opinion in mind hearing things I agree with from one side, and things I disagree with from the other side, and vice versa...

I still like the couple in spite of the critiques, while being well-aware of them. I'm by no means against the position of those who don't like this romance. "Why did you even respond to Kor's post, then?" Because I wanted to hear what he had to say when I offered a counterpoint. I like it when people elaborate.

Same here, if you remember when we talked about Akai being the one who is talking to Masumi on DCW, that's how I felt then.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

You got affected easily, considering these analysis' are debating against each other... I'm following this with my own opinion in mind hearing things I agree with from one side, and things I disagree with from the other side, and vice versa...

I still like the couple in spite of the critiques, while being well-aware of them. I'm by no means against the position of those who don't like this romance. "Why did you even respond to Kor's post, then?" Because I wanted to hear what he had to say when I offered a counterpoint. I like it when people elaborate.

Same here, if you remember when we talked about Akai being the one who is talking to Masumi on DCW, that's how I felt then.

And I do hope that, if someone's wish is to have me elaborate, in kind, I shall.

[Serinox]

I wonder if there is actually a marriage registration form inside the envelope. As we all know by now, Gosho likes to deceive the readers by presenting seemlingly very obvious matters, which prove to be incorrect in the end (e.g. Jodie as the obvious Vermouth suspect, Okiya as the obvious Bourbon suspect, Yoko's and Higo's recent relationship misunderstanding). In File 899, he even calls it cliche to have a marriage registration form inside the envelope through Haibara.



The fact that is so very cliche/obvious and that every character assume it to be true, makes me actually think that it is not a marriage registration form. Shuukichi also tells Yumi in 899, that he put all his thoughts and feelings into it. Does that fit a marriage registration form, a rather technical and unpersonal document? To a certain extent, maybe, but I feel something's off there too.

Of course, the condo caretaker shows Yumi and the others a picture of a marriage registration form with Shuukichi's name inserted, but that could just be a fake-out by him, to make her accept his challenge, to show if she is worthy and determined enough to marry Shuukichi eventually. I don't know how hard it is to get such a form, but I guess he could've just printed out a fake/unofficial example document from the internet, because if this indeed the case, he doesn't plan to really hand it in. Another thing that struck me, is that supposedly Shuukichi entered that he is the meijin, which I assume he put as his occupation, but is that a proper thing to put in there? Wouldn't "Professional Shogi Player" a proper description of his occupation?

[k11chi]

I wonder if there is actually a marriage registration form inside the envelope. As we all know by now, Gosho likes to deceive the readers by presenting seemlingly very obvious matters, which prove to be incorrect in the end (e.g. Jodie as the obvious Vermouth suspect, Okiya as the obvious Bourbon suspect, Yoko's and Higo's recent relationship misunderstanding). In File 899, he even calls it cliche to have a marriage registration form inside the envelope through Haibara.



The fact that is so very cliche/obvious and that every character assume it to be true, makes me actually think that it is not a marriage registration form. Shuukichi also tells Yumi in 899, that he put all his thoughts and feelings into it. Does that fit a marriage registration form, a rather technical and unpersonal document? To a certain extent, maybe, but I feel something's off there too.

Of course, the condo caretaker shows Yumi and the others a picture of a marriage registration form with Shuukichi's name inserted, but that could just be a fake-out by him, to make her accept his challenge, to show if she is worthy and determined enough to marry Shuukichi eventually. I don't know how hard it is to get such a form, but I guess he could've just printed out a fake/unofficial example document from the internet, because if this indeed the case, he doesn't plan to really hand it in. Another thing that struck me, is that supposedly Shuukichi entered that he is the meijin, which I assume he put as his occupation, but is that a proper thing to put in there? Wouldn't "Professional Shogi Player" a proper description of his occupation?

I see...

[bash7353]

It does say "Shogi player" as the husband's occupation, but it is followed by an indication that he holds the seven titles in brackets. It doesn't say that he is the Meijin there, and that isn't the title he's on the verge of losing anyway. The one he's fiercely trying to defend is the Ōshō title. I guess the manager is right that if he loses he will only continue to hold six of the titles, but I don't know if that means the form will no longer be valid.

[Serinox]

It does say "Shogi player" as the husband's occupation, but it is followed by an indication that he holds the seven titles in brackets. It doesn't say that he is the Meijin there, and that isn't the title he's on the verge of losing anyway. The one he's fiercely trying to defend is the Ōshō title. I guess the manager is right that if he loses he will only continue to hold six of the titles, but I don't know if that means the form will no longer be valid.

Hm, I see. Actually, I forgot that Meijin is just one of the seven shogi titles and not the title of the one who holds all seven titles. Anyway, my point still stands though, it's still too obvious.

[MrDetective]

there's something I didn't understand

what was Conan searching for on the pc ?

[Serinox]

there's something I didn't understand

what was Conan searching for on the pc ?

A scan/photo of the envelope content I guess. The man said it is somewhere in the room after all and Yumi already searched the drawers, so Conan thought outside the box and turned on the PC.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

there's something I didn't understand

what was Conan searching for on the pc ?

The fact that his hand was on the mouse seems to show that he was scrolling and clicking, but you'd think the manager would just have that screen already up, since he's already prepared for this situation. Thus, Shinichi/Conan wouldn't have been searching for anything—he would've seen what was on the computer screen, sat down, and reflexively put his hand on the mouse.

I wonder if there is actually a marriage registration form inside the envelope. As we all know by now, Gosho likes to deceive the readers by presenting seemlingly very obvious matters, which prove to be incorrect in the end (e.g. Jodie as the obvious Vermouth suspect, Okiya as the obvious Bourbon suspect, Yoko's and Higo's recent relationship misunderstanding). In File 899, he even calls it cliche to have a marriage registration form inside the envelope through Haibara.



The fact that is so very cliche/obvious and that every character assume it to be true, makes me actually think that it is not a marriage registration form. Shuukichi also tells Yumi in 899, that he put all his thoughts and feelings into it. Does that fit a marriage registration form, a rather technical and unpersonal document? To a certain extent, maybe, but I feel something's off there too.

Of course, the condo caretaker shows Yumi and the others a picture of a marriage registration form with Shuukichi's name inserted, but that could just be a fake-out by him, to make her accept his challenge, to show if she is worthy and determined enough to marry Shuukichi eventually. I don't know how hard it is to get such a form, but I guess he could've just printed out a fake/unofficial example document from the internet, because if this indeed the case, he doesn't plan to really hand it in. Another thing that struck me, is that supposedly Shuukichi entered that he is the meijin, which I assume he put as his occupation, but is that a proper thing to put in there? Wouldn't "Professional Shogi Player" a proper description of his occupation?

Could be...

Spoiler:

But, then, how would the manager know about his parents' names, especially that it seems the father's surname is Akai, on the form? The characters on the bottom of the screen of the manager's phone on Page 12 seem to be "Akai." Of course, it's small and blurry, but not too small and blurry. Considering his family's involvement in certain things, you'd think he wouldn't tell someone sensitive info like that. With the not so crucial at all secret he's already kept from Yumi, you'd especially raise an eyebrow at him telling anyone about his parentage.


Characters for Akai: 赤井

[Serinox]

Could be...

Spoiler:

But, then, how would the manager know about his parents' names, especially that it seems the father's surname is Akai, on the form? The characters on the bottom of the screen of the manager's phone on Page 12 seem to be "Akai." Of course, it's small and blurry, but not too small and blurry. Considering his family's involvement in certain things, you'd think he wouldn't tell someone sensitive info like that. With the not so crucial at all secret he's already kept from Yumi, you'd especially raise an eyebrow at him telling anyone about his parentage.


Characters for Akai: 赤井

Spoiler:

No matter how hard I look, I can't really make out the kanji for Akai anywhere on that photo, might need a better scan. Wasn't the Akai name possible being in there only speculation by SkyBlue's blog anyway?