Mafia Round 66: !? [END]

[Kleene Onigiri]

It's finally over \o/

But why does the town always ally me when I'm BO? D: and not when I'm town? D: And why was I trusted in the first place? O_o" (not that I mind XD)
And being BO is like being a politican... even if you're in deep shit and everyone knows you're bad, you gotta act like you're a good guy XD

I remember how Raiden PMed with me and said, that there wouldn't be so many disguisers. BUT EVERY DISGUISER IS IN! + SONOKO AND TOICHI!! XD

Stake Out. I potentially made a bit of a mistake here because I forgot how we handled it when someone SO'd a person who was dying (obviously, I remembered to give the gender of the killer). I wanted to bring this up, though, because Kill > SO. I know in mini mafia, you can follow up on the kill to find out the killer, but should it really be that way? Shouldn't Stake Out fail if the target dies? I told cinna her SO failed. (Not that this really hindered the town in any noticeable way.)

It usually fails and I think SI would be the only action that can track a killing? So yes.

2) Follow Up. For this round, I went by exactly what it says in the rules ("- Can use Follow-Up during each day phase to SI actions that happened to someone they staked out the previous night."). If I had realized before the round started that this is how it was worded, I would've changed it so that you can follow up any night you have results for.

Not sure why? It was always like that you can only follow-up the last night and not the nights before that. Because that's what SI is for. Otherwise it would be almost as good as SI?

3) BO kill cycles. The rules say a "successful" kill is the only thing that counts in the cycle, however... technically, attacking someone that is healed/protected IS considered a successful kill - the action itself is successful (unlike if the killer is tricked). I counted Kleene's attack on Yuriko as a successful kill. We should clarify this.

Any attack order is counted as "successful". The only not successful one would be, if a rank higher also gives a attack order. So that successful is meant towards that and not being tricked or something. So yes Wording it differently would help.
Maybe "successfully ordered/planed kill?"

4) If the GM requests that you read over your role and ask if you have questions (and I did; I included that in EVERY SINGLE ROLE PM), please do this. Please. I was more than happy to answer questions if you bothered to ask them. However, it was painfully obvious who didn't. Painfully. And not just for me.

Rules? What are rules? Hohohoho~

5) BO Leader. Should the BO be able to appoint a leader on their own rather than going by the rank?

It was originally like that. Not sure when it was taken out from the rules :V So yes.
It was like that: Rank says the BO leader, but the BO members can change the rank anytime with a BO-Vote (was also to prevent Anokata-lover to go mad a the BOs XD)

6) Notes to add to the rules:
- Under Discombobulate: make sure it's written that the message you get will be "Your actions failed." NOT "You were tricked."

Was also like that originally. You get a "it failed" instead of a specific "you got tricked" notice.

7) Yukiko/Irish. If they were to disguise as James/Rena after Night 1, should they receive the number of FBI/BO in the game? And if YES, should this count include ones that are dead/arrested?
I would say no? But if yes, then I would make it on the original amount, whether someone died or not doesn't matter. (since that would give the disguiser more info than the original role would get)

8) Sleeping Pill. Should this be a little more restricted? Right now, it's unlimited and you can use it on whoever you want. Should we restrict to a certain number of uses and/or 'can't be used on the same person twice in a row' or something?

Dunno? Sleeping pill is revealing you role a lot imo. So if you wanna put in a restriction, then maybe only not being able to do it on someone in a row. But you can also trick someone every night too with discombobulate?
(what's the reason you want to restrict it?)

[Yurikochan]

@Kleene:

Mainly so you can't do what the Bottle did to Parkur in my round and he was rendered useless til his death. :x

It screams Sherry/Araide but it also can't be investigated too. :x

[shinichi'sapprentice]

Spoiler: akai disguised as KID's point of view of the game :o

Prep:

Night 1: #DualSnipeguard4ever

Day 1: ConVermSuke announces trick and I think we were all like "o.O" Confronted him; he says he doesn't know if his trick was due to a BO/Town trickster; he claimed being able to trick; asked him to trick IwaYoko; best friend forever and I plans our next actions. And of course... Tie votes and nobody died! "If Conia is BO, miyano_shiho is not; if miyano_shiho is BO, MoonRaven is not"

Night 2: Best friend forever and I proceeded with our plottings; miyaJodie contacted best friend forever and we both panicked... xd "just read this! i agree with everything, you can change my investigate on miyayes! I hope we don't get tricked ;v I'm really sorry I haven't replied yet T_____T Still busy...Aftet this phase, I swear I'm not gonna sleep ;v" *died* xD

Day 2, Night 3, Day 3, Night 4, Day 4, Night 5, Day 5: *eating glorious popcorn* ;v

*puts best friend forever to sleep* ;v

Spoiler: sumthin! :o

1) Stake Out. I potentially made a bit of a mistake here because I forgot how we handled it when someone SO'd a person who was dying (obviously, I remembered to give the gender of the killer). I wanted to bring this up, though, because Kill > SO. I know in mini mafia, you can follow up on the kill to find out the killer, but should it really be that way? Shouldn't Stake Out fail if the target dies? I told cinna her SO failed. (Not that this really hindered the town in any noticeable way.)

Hrmmmmmmmmmmm... I was just about to point out the Arrest/Stake Out scenario but looking back at the Order of Actions, Arrest > Killing > All other actions (Stake Out). And that part was already fixed/pointed out before this round so I'm not sure why I want to point that out... xd Anyway... Killing > Stake Out... Which I agree, makes sense for the Stake Out to fail just like it fails when the Staked Out person is arrested. Buuuut, Stake Out has been this sort of super awesome 'Special Investigation' sort of thing that lets you check definitive actions that actually happened on the target the night they have been Staked Out. *stops for a bit and checks new reply*

gin: "1) I think it would be most fair if SO's result reveals the gender of the killer, so it doesn't count as a failed action, but also you cannot Follow-Up on that SO. Target's dead and there's nothing else to check for on dead people."

^Buuuut then, there's this Special Investigation action which is used to check on who killed dead people from past nights...

Back to the Stake Out issue, I'm kinda 50/50 on it... ;v ...Though, leaning more towards making it fail altogether because of Order of Actions AND see # 6

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2) Follow Up. For this round, I went by exactly what it says in the rules ("- Can use Follow-Up during each day phase to SI actions that happened to someone they staked out the previous night."). If I had realized before the round started that this is how it was worded, I would've changed it so that you can follow up any night you have results for.

Agreed with the above statement. If Stake Out person found something has been done on their target on Night 1 and had got nothing on their next targets after the next following nights, I'd say allow the Stake Out person to continue Following up on the Night 1 Stake Out (or whatever phase they wanna Follow Up on).

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3) BO kill cycles. The rules say a "successful" kill is the only thing that counts in the cycle, however... technically, attacking someone that is healed/protected IS considered a successful kill - the action itself is successful (unlike if the killer is tricked). I counted Kleene's attack on Yuriko as a successful kill. We should clarify this.

Hrmmmmmmmmmmm... Was gonna say that the BO who had their kill interrupted due to heal/protect should still be able to kill again before the next kill cycle. But reading what you guys said makes me agree except maybeeeee let's try to reword that as:

Killing/APTXing
— Every night phase, The Black Organization may send a kill for one player.
— The Black Organization is expected and encouraged to consult with one another on who to kill during the night and possible lynch votes during the day. A private board for the Black Organization to discuss strategies is provided in every round by the GM.
— Every member of the Black Organization must attempt to successfully kill before they are allowed a second kill. If the target was protected/healed from the attack, the killer's attempt counts to the first cycle. If however, the killer was DISCOMBOBULATED, they should still have another chance to do their turn since their actions would have 'failed' and the kill was altogether NOT SUCCESSFUL. If a member is unable to kill due to being arrested or lynched, in which case they are no longer factored in to the kill cycle. Once the cycle has been completed once, a new order may be decided.
— Every member of the Black Organization may use an APTX assuming there are enough remaining. Unlike with the nightly kills, there is no restriction on how many may participate. Each member is limited to using just one APTX per day phase, however.
— The Black Organization may kill or APTX a fellow member if they so wish.

Using 'must kill successfully' then saying that an attack that was prevented due to heal/protection still counts made my mind explode... xD I wrote 'attempt' and was hesitating to add 'successfully' back in the sentence but added it anyway so it'll have the same degree of emphasizing that the kill should count since 'it happened' (despite the heal/protection) and not all in all was 'stopped' (discombobulation). ohmygoshdidthatmakesense... @__@

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4) If the GM requests that you read over your role and ask if you have questions (and I did; I included that in EVERY SINGLE ROLE PM), please do this. Please. I was more than happy to answer questions if you bothered to ask them. However, it was painfully obvious who didn't. Painfully. And not just for me.

*throws questions everywhere*

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5) BO Leader. Should the BO be able to appoint a leader on their own rather than going by the rank?

I've only been BO...... Once! xD (and watch it be the only time ;v) Hrmmmmm... The only thing that makes this issue cause headache to people is the involvement of inactivity... Or not really... xD I say give a chance to players to be a leader if their rank do say so that they have more control over the others... Just have the more experienced players guide the less experienced ones on what to do and be there for them blahblahblah xD Buuuuuuuuuuuut, *after reading new replies* xD Hrmmmmmmm... I don't have a better suggestion as of yet but I like boss Kleene's opinion on the matter. xD

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6) Notes to add to the rules:
- Under Discombobulate: make sure it's written that the message you get will be "Your actions failed." NOT "You were tricked."

"You were failed!" I mean what ;v This is more of a GM reminder because as a player, I've had GMs tell me that I was 'tricked' instead of saying I was failed.. Er... 'My actions failed'. And even though in most cases the failed actions were due to discombobulation anyway, there are still other factors that might have caused one's actions 'TO FAIL'. (Yes, people. Let's read the rules \o/ xD) ADD: I was already answering issue # 7 but then I remembered I wrote in # 1, to 'see # 6' ;v Soooo yeah, the Stake Out issue in # 1 should fail... Order of actions, and one of the reasons that players should also consider thinking about on why their actions have 'failed' (...even though it'll be obvious ;v).

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7) Yukiko/Irish. If they were to disguise as James/Rena after Night 1, should they receive the number of FBI/BO in the game? And if YES, should this count include ones that are dead/arrested?

Hrmmmmmmmm... After staring at the rules, NO. The ability in question is related to the role's status which is 'FBI Leader' and 'NOC'. Both involves getting special information that is privy to them at the beginning of the game.

— If we make it as a 'GM-Discretion' thing, it'll be confusing every round not just for players but also for the GM themselves... Maybe... I dunno...

— Yurikochan: "Maybe for Irish/Yukiko the change of costumes could equal like it's night 1. So Agasa/James/Rena would be able to be used if you choose it as first costume."

^Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand what you said as Agasa/James/Rena being a default N1 costume for Irish/Yukiko + 4 other costumes ? xD I dunno, my imagination is ehhhh xD I mean like they can choose Agasa OR James OR Rena + 2 other costumes out of the five given to them at prep phase (well... in this case... 7 actually... stupid math ;v) ? I'm not sure I'm making any sense but It's kinda a good idea so Irish/Yukiko will have the privilege to get James' and Rena's special abilities... Though, we'll lose the 'random' concept if we do that...

— boss Kleene: "I would say no? But if yes, then I would make it on the original amount, whether someone died or not doesn't matter. (since that would give the disguiser more info than the original role would get)"

^Hrmmm... I still say no but the idea is also good if we end up with 'yes' ;v xD

Sooooo... Going more into the issue, whether we end up with no or yes, we'll have to fix the following from the rules and here's my suggestion: ;v

IF NO:

Choose Costumes
Player chooses costumes. Only investigable through Special Investigate
- Roles with action: Irish, Yukiko
- Prep action
- During the preparation phase, the player will be given five possible roles they could disguise as. The player then chooses three of those to use in the course of the game.
- All disguises will be town roles. The player will NOT replace that role (differentiating it from normal Disguise). Even if they were to take the disguise of Shinichi, another player could still be Shinichi or Conan.
- Once Irish/Yukiko have their selected disguises, they can disguise that same phase, meaning they would be disguised N1.
- Choosing costumes is not a crime. Disguising, however, is.
- Once the player's last costume is used, they will be given a new list of disguises to choose from starting the following day (meaning they can be disguised again the next night). For example, if Yukiko is on her last disguise N3, D3 she will be given a new list and can disguise again immediately on N4.
- The following roles may not be used as a disguise for Choose Costumes: Black Org members, Yumi, Conan, Haibara, Sonoko, Kazuha, Kaitou KID, Ayumi, Mitsuhiko, Genta, Yukiko, Toichi.
- If Choose Costumes/Temporary Disguise is used to disguise as Agasa: [For Night 1] he may choose between using Research + 1 item or using both items; [For other Nights] he may only use Research. He may not hand out items.
- If Choose Costumes/Temporary Disguise is used to disguise as James or Rena AFTER NIGHT 1, Irish/Yukiko will not be able to get the Status-related ability of getting the number of FBI/BO in the game. Irish/Yukiko will also NOT receive any of James(disguise)' subordinates' results AFTER NIGHT 1, even if they are in the game.

Theeeeeeeeeeeeen, I have a follow up question! xD Question/Issue # 7 is all about Yukiko/Irish choosing James/Rena AFTER NIGHT 1... What happens if they choose to disguise as the said roles DURING NIGHT 1? And since Agasa was mentioned, I'm still sort of confused about his abilities... I'll ask about it when/if I remember and/or when next game begins maybe... ;v

...And to answer my own follow up question, I say yes..? xD Then, we also have to add it to the rules whatever the final decision may be regarding the matter... ;v ...whatcha guys think?

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8) Sleeping Pill. Should this be a little more restricted? Right now, it's unlimited and you can use it on whoever you want. Should we restrict to a certain number of uses and/or 'can't be used on the same person twice in a row' or something?

I wrote my opinion about this and we'll see if I ever find it... xD

zzz

EDIT: FOUND IT!! xD

Spoiler: me answering questions, Leads to me asking more questions apparently... ;v

[23:28] <akai> about sleeping piLl: i think it's ok as it is for now ? coz like if sherry is the last bo, at least she can save herself from house search or sumthin
[23:28] <akai> arrest and bribe kill is greater than sleeping pill after all ;v
[23:28] <akai> annnnnd
[23:28] <akai> if the sleeping pilled person is a bo who plans to bribe kill,
[23:29] <akai> ...how does that work ;v
[23:29] <akai> ...since the sleepingpiller will be notified that the sllepingpill was successful the day it was handed out
[23:30] <@KingBowser> it's still considered successful
[23:30] <akai> so the sllepingpiler will deduct that the sllepingpilled person can't be the one who did the kill next night
[23:30] <@KingBowser> all other actions won't work
[23:30] <akai> KEYBOARD STAHP ;v
[23:30] <@KingBowser> the sleeping pill-giver will just have to realize that bribe is a thing
[23:30] <akai> i see
[23:33] <akai> hrmmmmmmmmm
[23:34] <akai> rules doesn't say anything bout it but
[23:34] <akai> are gadget-y actions affected by sleepingpill ?
[23:34] <@KingBowser> I would assume so, yes
[23:34] <@KingBowser> like bowtie-interrogate?
[23:35] <@KingBowser> because they're not a passive action or bribe or arrest
[23:35] <akai> like would they be able to use the gadget given to them ?
[23:35] <@KingBowser> nope
[23:36] <akai> would they still be protected with the watch ?
[23:36] <UnovaBoy> Nope
[23:36] <UnovaBoy> I think
[23:36] <akai> (investigating watch protection = protecting self)
[23:36] <@KingBowser> I would think so?
[23:36] <@KingBowser> since it's a passive thing
[23:36] <@KingBowser> you don't actively use the watch

...and now to really zzz ;v

;v man, i started writing this right after the game ended and i just now finally finished it ;v *goes to zzz*

[Yurikochan]

@SA: nope, what I mean is say the costumes Reset it starts a new beginning for Yukiko/Irish, so if you have James/Rena/Agasa on it you could get the results as if you were choosing your night 1 costumes. So in example prep phase gives you 5 costumes that are not one of the above, then the next costume switch which I believe would be day 3 you get James/Shinichi/Came/KID/Akai and you choose James first, you would get the same amount as James would get no matter how many died/were arrested, since it's simple math to figure out, and no James should not count as a sub to a disguised person.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

*Hugs her savior, Yuri-sis*

I love how I saved you both times XD

[shinichi'sapprentice]

@SA: nope, what I mean is say the costumes Reset it starts a new beginning for Yukiko/Irish, so if you have James/Rena/Agasa on it you could get the results as if you were choosing your night 1 costumes. So in example prep phase gives you 5 costumes that are not one of the above, then the next costume switch which I believe would be day 3 you get James/Shinichi/Came/KID/Akai and you choose James first, you would get the same amount as James would get no matter how many died/were arrested, since it's simple math to figure out, and no James should not count as a sub to a disguised person.

oh! xd ...i've no idea how i ended up with what i said ;v sorry! (this is what being dead for days does to you ;v xD)

ugh i should be sleeping xD

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Kleene:

Mainly so you can't do what the Bottle did to Parkur in my round and he was rendered useless til his death. :x

It screams Sherry/Araide but it also can't be investigated too. :x

True, but also like I said, you could also do that with discombobulate.

Discombobulate has the advantage that you can decide during the phase, while sleeping pill needs to be done during the day, so planing ahead.
Advantage for sleeping pill is, that you can't investigate it and track it down, while you can with discombobulate.

Now, since sleeping pill is used at day and you need to actually plan ahead, giving sleeping pill a limit would make it way harder and in some cases even useless. For example, if there are lovers and you know they will protect each other. You'll have a hard time to kill them with a normal kill and sleeping pill as your only "tricking" if sleeping pill is limited in usage.

Personally I also find Sherry still a weak role and with limiting it, it'll be even more useless XD

[Memesu]

T__T

[Jecka]

I'd like to apologize again to PT, Raiden, Yuriko, and to whomever he relayed my mistakenly read info. T^T

Thanks for a fun round PT!!

[MoonRaven]

I'm glad this round is over. I screwed up so badly.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Oh yeah, I also had a fun moment XD

Yuriko talked with me in IRC after I failed to sniper her (and Raiden beat me up that meanie).
And she said something like: "Those BO's wanted to kill me!"
And I said: "Yeah, those meanies! How could they! D:!"
And that meanie was me XD Sorry Yuriko :x *hugs*

Edit: Wooot, pofa was megure! XD

[PT]

If anyone wants it, the actions log is here.

I'll comment on the other stuff when I'm less... blah, but as for Sleeping Pill specifically... It's basically just like Discombobulate, except the person knows in advance that they can't send actions, and it can't be SI'd. I dunno, I just feel like it can easily be abused to make for a miserable round for one person if the Sherry/Araide decides they don't want someone to be able to send actions ever starting D1.

While Discombobulate technically CAN be used on the same person over and over, tricksters are generally less likely to do this because it can be SI'd (or even investigated, once there's a pattern) easily enough.

(And regarding the notes for Disc, anyone who was actually tricked this round knows that I sent 'your actions failed' - this was brought up specifically because a previous GM apparently sent out 'you were tricked' notices.)

[cinnamoroll]

Thanks for GMing PT! <3

It was fun!! Even though I was useless most of the game :V Until I made he arrest, but that was mostly thanks to Raiden ^^'

Yay town!