Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 921-924

[Nemomon]

But wasn't this first ShinRan meeting demanded by fans and that is why Gosho drew it? It wasn't very great, but also wasn't that bad too. A nice scene was that Yusaku actually listened to what Shinishi had to say and investigated it. Wonder how many parents would actually would believe their 4 yo child to the point that they would wear a mask and investigate it.

[Serinox]

I think you mean Ran, but yes, she thinks to herself at the end of the NY flashback case that that's when she first realized she loved him.

No, I meant Shinichi. Ran realized it in their first year of high school (aka last year, prior to the beginning of the plot). Shinichi realized it sometime in middle school.

Do you mean Episodes 100-101 "Memories of First Love" with that Asami Uchida girl which claims to be Shinichi's first love? If that's what you mean, then no, it doesn't contradict. Shinichi tells Asami when she confesses her love to him, "I already have someone I liked since I was little." followed by a description of Ran. I can't think of anything else that is canon in regards to that kind of thing right now.

[Kor]

"Plot-related" as in "who is Rum/Rum suspicion" cases (Kuroda, etc.). And I'm talking about flashbacks to them as preschoolers—I'm not saying there won't be anymore flashbacks. I was just saying that since people like you really didn't like the characters, especially Shinichi, as preschoolers, that you'd be relieved that this will, in all probability, be the last preschooler case.

I'd hesitate to call the Shinichi/Ran/Masumi flashback unnecessary until it, after analysis, fails to contribute to the plot or to the characters. You may not like the Akai family playing such a large role in the plot, but that's the direction in which Gosho seems to be heading, and the Shinichi/Ran/Masumi flashback will likely play a part in that.

The problem isn't really the characters as preschoolers, the problem is Gosho's shortcoming as a writer, and by extension, his ability to write characters right. It doesn't matter if this isn't a story that will never be told again. It's still the same writer, and this applies to the plot too. I mean, we saw that the Bourbon arc was seven years that led to practically nothing with a resolution that makes you want to bang your head at the wall.
And the potential Sera flashback? I wasn't saying it's going to be unnecessary. I actually want this to happen already so we can mark this off. "I don't want to call this a trend yet, but I dread the thought of DC starting to go for long unnecessary flashbacks." - this is me going against more flashback cases becoming a trend.
BUT! As of yet ALL of the Sera related stuff has yet to contribute to the plot in any sort of way, so I'm looking forward to look back at it and go "ah yes, this was necessary for the plot" (though I have the impression I won't have this reaction, seeing how the Bourbon arc turned out).

Well, i assume you are more into the BO plot? (just guessing). To be honest, i think Gosho has been quite irregular and messy with the whole story. When Sera appeared, like three years ago, i was like "why is Gosho putting more and more characters?! is like instead of going forward with the main plot, he is lengthen it with more storys. i mean, if im right, Gosho said in an interview that Sera doesn't even know about the BO. Of course i think her own story will fit with the BO plot, but still, he is taking so long wth the main plot. 21 years of DC and we still don't have any consistent clue about the BO and Anokata. So yes, i can get when someone find this falshbacks unnecesay.

However, in his very messy way, Gosho try to develop the characters in their many sides, specially the romantic one, so i don't think this kind of storys are a waste, they surely aren't as important to the BO plot, but romances are always been part of the story. I say this because so many people seems to look down on the romantic plots, which is unfair because DC is not only BO plot nor random cases,(Gosho's messy way of development allow this too) so i don't see the problem when Gosho cames up with this storys.

It's interesting that you ask because, while I'm all for more BO, I really shouldn't have a reason to be, because Gosho proved that even in the "plot" front he's somewhat creatively bankrupt. But to give an actual answer, I'm very well aware the BO probably won't make a meaningful appearance until after movie 20. Heck, the Rum thing just started so it might as well take a few years until we see them again. What I am into actually, is Gosho resolving some of his OTHER ongoing mysteries (most of them are the Sera ones), because I don't think any of them are good, but at least if he resolves them, it'll give the illusion of progress.
That's the crux of the issue. Conventionally, long flashbacks are unnecessary and are the stuff of filler, because flashbacks are devoid of tension and don't develop characters, they merely show you their past. There's very little progress to be achieved via flashbacks. Obviously some writers can utilize flashbacks better and make them meaningful, but if we take this latest case as an example, this wasn't good. I'm not advocating death to the flashbacks, because it can be interesting to know what this or that character was like in the past or what he was doing, but case-long flashbacks aren't necessary to that effect.

As far as the romance stories go, I'm sorry, but there's a very good reason why people look down on them, and I don't think that at this point it's worth to defend this aspect of DC. The romance plots are Gosho's go-to place once he doesn't know what to do with a character. For all sake and purpose, it's his cheap way into "developing" characters (it's faux development at best). When a character like Chiba gets a love interest, it's just as fillery as a case with nothing happening in it but the case. It's fluff. Romance stories revolve around the question of "will they or won't they", but the answer to that in DC has always been "they will", so we are left with a bunch of ongoing romance plots to which there's only one possible conclusion, and none of these romances are even that interesting or are even written well. They are all quite repetitive and contribute to the progress of the series as much as they contribute to the characters themselves (very little if at all, that is). Shinichi's and Ran's status currently depends on Ran replying back to Shinichi's confession. Heiji's and Kazuha's status depends on the two confessing to each other. Chiba's and Naeko's status depends on Chiba finally realizing who Naeko is. Yumi's and Shuukichi's status depends on Yumi kicking Shuukichi the hell away from her life because he's a horrible person (I'm sorry, why am I even supposed to root for those two to be together when Shuukichi is a prick?) This sort of highlights another problem with these romances. It was never really about characters falling in love as much as it was about characters who are already interested in each other just confessing their love.

If it sounds like I'm negative towards the current state of this series, it's probably because I am. I honestly think Gosho has been creatively bankrupt for a few years now (disguises, secret agents, brothers and sisters, infuriatingly bad confrontations, childhood friends, etc.) and I see no sign of an improvement.

[Conny]

If it sounds like I'm negative towards the current state of this series, it's probably because I am. I honestly think Gosho has been creatively bankrupt for a few years now (disguises, secret agents, brothers and sisters, infuriatingly bad confrontations, childhood friends, etc.) and I see no sign of an improvement.

Actually i feel this way too. Im just waiting for some development (actual development) on the main plot and the end of the series (which i expect to be interesting at least)

[unclesporkums]

I completely agree with you, Kor. Very nice assessment.

[TanteiSa]

infuriatingly bad confrontations

Which ones are you talking about?

[Kor]

infuriatingly bad confrontations

Which ones are you talking about?

All the three recent (loose term) ones.
Scarlet.
Mystery Train.
And also to a slightly lesser extent, Red Shirts. I don't remember who was the one that said that (either Chekhov or Jd-), but we more or less had all the pieces to resolve the Bourbon mystery back then (we just didn't meet Amuro at that point). We figured out Okiya was Akai, we figured out Scar Akai was Bourbon, but even with all those pieces in place, we were left hanging for 100-200 more files. It was also fairly weak on tension.

These were practically all of our confrontations in this arc, and none were great.

[misc86]

If it sounds like I'm negative towards the current state of this series, it's probably because I am. I honestly think Gosho has been creatively bankrupt for a few years now (disguises, secret agents, brothers and sisters, infuriatingly bad confrontations, childhood friends, etc.) and I see no sign of an improvement.

Shit, Kor, you are right.

[Uchiha Shadow]

infuriatingly bad confrontations

Which ones are you talking about?

All the three recent (loose term) ones.
Scarlet.
Mystery Train.
And also to a slightly lesser extent, Red Shirts. I don't remember who was the one that said that (either Chekhov or Jd-), but we more or less had all the pieces to resolve the Bourbon mystery back then (we just didn't meet Amuro at that point). We figured out Okiya was Akai, we figured out Scar Akai was Bourbon, but even with all those pieces in place, we were left hanging for 100-200 more files. It was also fairly weak on tension.

These were practically all of our confrontations in this arc, and none were great.

Well, I'm glad I only caught up last year, and I skipped many episodes to catch up, that's why I don't really see the Bourbon arc as bad, however, I can see where your coming from and I understand why you wouldn't like it.

[Shinichi Edogawa]

The Bourbon arc is the most useless arc in the entire series and had tons of unnecessary stuff that will need 10 volumes to be solved (sera/akai familly, bourbon and akai, etc...). We learn so few, characters are doing nothing except suspicious looks, like Sera. Since 10 volumes she does nothing except suspicious looks, they could talk at each other but no they prefer to talk with codes and innuendo.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

The problem isn't really the characters as preschoolers, the problem is Gosho's shortcoming as a writer, and by extension, his ability to write characters right. It doesn't matter if this isn't a story that will never be told again. It's still the same writer, and this applies to the plot too. I mean, we saw that the Bourbon arc was seven years that led to practically nothing with a resolution that makes you want to bang your head at the wall.
And the potential Sera flashback? I wasn't saying it's going to be unnecessary. I actually want this to happen already so we can mark this off. "I don't want to call this a trend yet, but I dread the thought of DC starting to go for long unnecessary flashbacks." - this is me going against more flashback cases becoming a trend.
BUT! As of yet ALL of the Sera related stuff has yet to contribute to the plot in any sort of way, so I'm looking forward to look back at it and go "ah yes, this was necessary for the plot" (though I have the impression I won't have this reaction, seeing how the Bourbon arc turned out).

Yes, the Bourbon arc led to nothing immediate, that's true. However, I'll wait to see where all the things it set up lead. Also, I see where I erred with my last post—"it's still the same writer."

True—the Masumi-related stuff hasn't yet led to anything yet. Again, I'll wait before passing judgment.

It's interesting that you ask because, while I'm all for more BO, I really shouldn't have a reason to be, because Gosho proved that even in the "plot" front he's somewhat creatively bankrupt. But to give an actual answer, I'm very well aware the BO probably won't make a meaningful appearance until after movie 20. Heck, the Rum thing just started so it might as well take a few years until we see them again. What I am into actually, is Gosho resolving some of his OTHER ongoing mysteries (most of them are the Sera ones), because I don't think any of them are good, but at least if he resolves them, it'll give the illusion of progress.
That's the crux of the issue. Conventionally, long flashbacks are unnecessary and are the stuff of filler, because flashbacks are devoid of tension and don't develop characters, they merely show you their past. There's very little progress to be achieved via flashbacks. Obviously some writers can utilize flashbacks better and make them meaningful, but if we take this latest case as an example, this wasn't good. I'm not advocating death to the flashbacks, because it can be interesting to know what this or that character was like in the past or what he was doing, but case-long flashbacks aren't necessary to that effect.

I remember something jd said (I'll do my best to paraphrase it, keeping in mind that it might not be exactly what jd said): "The norm of DC is filler... Gosho just needs to plug two components together." It's easy to accuse someone of being creatively bankrupt due to what is perceived as a substantial drop in quality in a piece of fiction, and what is seen as a loss of the things that drew you to the piece to begin with. You wanted immediate payoff, but Gosho has something else in mind. You may believe otherwise, but I believe that Gosho did not make the Bourbon arc to get more money or just for the heck of dragging it on—there are elements here that may yet play a key role in how DC will end, or at least, progress towards the end.

Now, I know—"you don't know if there's going to be any actual payoff with the Bourbon arc elements in the future." True, but that statement goes both ways. You see the past seven years and see waste that makes you want to bang your head against the wall, and I see unresolved potential that may yet advance or even end the plot. My view is more optimistic than yours.

As far as the romance stories go, I'm sorry, but there's a very good reason why people look down on them, and I don't think that at this point it's worth to defend this aspect of DC. The romance plots are Gosho's go-to place once he doesn't know what to do with a character. For all sake and purpose, it's his cheap way into "developing" characters (it's faux development at best). When a character like Chiba gets a love interest, it's just as fillery as a case with nothing happening in it but the case. It's fluff. Romance stories revolve around the question of "will they or won't they", but the answer to that in DC has always been "they will", so we are left with a bunch of ongoing romance plots to which there's only one possible conclusion, and none of these romances are even that interesting or are even written well. They are all quite repetitive and contribute to the progress of the series as much as they contribute to the characters themselves (very little if at all, that is). Shinichi's and Ran's status currently depends on Ran replying back to Shinichi's confession. Heiji's and Kazuha's status depends on the two confessing to each other. Chiba's and Naeko's status depends on Chiba finally realizing who Naeko is. Yumi's and Shuukichi's status depends on Yumi kicking Shuukichi the hell away from her life because he's a horrible person (I'm sorry, why am I even supposed to root for those two to be together when Shuukichi is a prick?) This sort of highlights another problem with these romances. It was never really about characters falling in love as much as it was about characters who are already interested in each other just confessing their love.

Again, filler = status quo—not saying it's good, just saying it's a part of DC, and the same goes for what you see as mediocre writing. As for the love stories... I like them. I like the characters involved, and I wonder about how they'll confess, not if. I'm willing to wait and see if the unresolved confessions lead to character development. Interesting, suspenseful—all well and good, but I don't need too much of that to enjoy these romances. Why? It's the type of observer of fiction that I am—I'm quite tolerant of many things that others would call out instantly as a reason to stop observing entirely. I can understand why you look down upon and criticize the romances, but for me, the criticisms aren't enough to warrant a cessation of observation.

If this past paragraph, especially the latter part of it, confused you, then that's fine. I'm just quite tolerant about fiction—your expectations are higher. It really doesn't take much for me to enjoy a piece of fiction—it's very hard for me to become bored. This is the first time I've tried to explain how tolerant of fiction I am, so if you're confused, I completely get it. Oh, boy, I wonder how much crap I'll get for this (that is, if anyone responds—if no one responds, then that's that), unless I'm being too self-depreciatory.

If it sounds like I'm negative towards the current state of this series, it's probably because I am. I honestly think Gosho has been creatively bankrupt for a few years now (disguises, secret agents, brothers and sisters, infuriatingly bad confrontations, childhood friends, etc.) and I see no sign of an improvement.

Yeah, you are—not a bad thing, by any means. Let me ask, did you think, before the Bourbon arc, that you'd be this cynical about DC, once it was through? (That is, if you weren't, already.) At that time, did you think DC would go downhill, or had better and brighter things in its future?

Finally, thank you for being very articulate and clear in your views—I'm glad I have a better understanding of your views, as well as the views of many of DC's more disappointed fans, who I think would completely concur with your post.

The Bourbon arc is the most useless arc in the entire series and had tons of unnecessary stuff that will need 10 volumes to be solved (sera/akai familly, bourbon and akai, etc...). We learn so few, characters are doing nothing except suspicious looks, like Sera. Since 10 volumes she does nothing except suspicious looks, they could talk at each other but no they prefer to talk with codes and innuendo.

I'd hold off on that until we're further on in DC—if, by the end of DC, the elements the Bourbon arc introduced have contributed nothing to how the ending was reached, then you can say to people like me, "I told you so!"

[Uchiha Shadow]

The problem isn't really the characters as preschoolers, the problem is Gosho's shortcoming as a writer, and by extension, his ability to write characters right. It doesn't matter if this isn't a story that will never be told again. It's still the same writer, and this applies to the plot too. I mean, we saw that the Bourbon arc was seven years that led to practically nothing with a resolution that makes you want to bang your head at the wall.
And the potential Sera flashback? I wasn't saying it's going to be unnecessary. I actually want this to happen already so we can mark this off. "I don't want to call this a trend yet, but I dread the thought of DC starting to go for long unnecessary flashbacks." - this is me going against more flashback cases becoming a trend.
BUT! As of yet ALL of the Sera related stuff has yet to contribute to the plot in any sort of way, so I'm looking forward to look back at it and go "ah yes, this was necessary for the plot" (though I have the impression I won't have this reaction, seeing how the Bourbon arc turned out).

Yes, the Bourbon arc led to nothing immediate, that's true. However, I'll wait to see where all the things it set up lead. Also, I see where I erred with my last post—"it's still the same writer."

True—the Masumi-related stuff hasn't yet led to anything yet. Again, I'll wait before passing judgment.

The Bourbon arc is the most useless arc in the entire series and had tons of unnecessary stuff that will need 10 volumes to be solved (sera/akai familly, bourbon and akai, etc...). We learn so few, characters are doing nothing except suspicious looks, like Sera. Since 10 volumes she does nothing except suspicious looks, they could talk at each other but no they prefer to talk with codes and innuendo.

I'd hold off on that until we're further on in DC—if, by the end of DC, the elements the Bourbon arc introduced have contributed nothing to how the ending was reached, then you can say to people like me, "I told you so!"

Well, for me, I'd say that both the Kir and Bourbon arcs are not as useful as the others, let's face it, we didn't get even the slightest hint in any of these 2 arcs(400+ chapters) about the unresolved plots that were in the previous arcs(with the exception that Vermouth is related to the boss), in fact it added new ones, that doesn't mean it's completely useless, at least one thing we got is now we have 2 spies in the BO(even though I never liked the fact that Amuro was a spy, he could've been a big threat to Conan if he was loyal to the BO) and now that both Haibara and Akai are out of the way(in terms of the BO thinking they're dead) we can focus on other plots. Like the BO looking for Scientists and Programmers to replace Haibara and Itakura.

Now as far as The Akai family goes, the only thing that could move the plot is the unknown child, since it seems she's a victim of Aptx4869 or some other sort of drug, she may have extra knowledge of the BO.

Anyway, I won't say the Bourbon arc is bad, to me it's ok, probably my least favorite arc along side the Conan arc, but it's really lacking, and it would've been better if Sera and Amuro weren't introduced very late. But as you say it might be relevant to the future arcs of DC.

[Kor]

Yes, the Bourbon arc led to nothing immediate, that's true. However, I'll wait to see where all the things it set up lead. Also, I see where I erred with my last post—"it's still the same writer."

True—the Masumi-related stuff hasn't yet led to anything yet. Again, I'll wait before passing judgment.

While I can understand the sentiment of "let's wait until it's over", we're not dealing here with a 26 episodes anime or TV season. The Bourbon arc took us 7 years, that's a third of the series. Storytelling should be dynamic, and we should not scratch our heads asking "what was the point of all this" after it took us 7 years to get there. We're not any closer to the conclusion of the series than we were 7 years ago. That's just how much the plot progressed. It's okay to critically think of the status of the series, how we got to this place and what was achieved.

I remember something jd said (I'll do my best to paraphrase it, keeping in mind that it might not be exactly what jd said): "The norm of DC is filler... Gosho just needs to plug two components together."

I'm not sure what this has with the argument you're trying to make, to be honest. But you are somewhat taking his words out of context, because this thing Jd- said (if I recall correctly), wasn't about the quality of the series, but about the length of the series and one of the elements that causes it.

It's easy to accuse someone of being creatively bankrupt due to what is perceived as a substantial drop in quality in a piece of fiction, and what is seen as a loss of the things that drew you to the piece to begin with.

It's easy to accuse him of being creatively bankrupt because everything about the last 7 years suggests that he is. We dealt with a BO member who used a disguise and later it turns out he's a secret agent of sort who infiltrated the organization (plus plenty of other people wearing disguises). Oh, and Sera appeared, whose main mystery at the beginning was about being a sibling of another character. And now we have yet ANOTHER mysterious sibling thing going on, oh and two mothers are also sisters based on what Gosho says.
Like, there's really not much that can be said here. Gosho is simply repeating himself, plain and simple.

You wanted immediate payoff, but Gosho has something else in mind. You may believe otherwise, but I believe that Gosho did not make the Bourbon arc to get more money or just for the heck of dragging it on—there are elements here that may yet play a key role in how DC will end, or at least, progress towards the end.

If I wanted immediate payoff, I wouldn't stick around. But seriously, it's taken 7 years, and you accuse me of wanting immediate payoffs? I don't get why you're trying to "analyze" my thoughts, as I believe I'm being very clear about what I think. Not one bit about my arguments is about what "I want", but about the effectiveness of what's going on with this series.
And as far as payoffs go, Bourbon is a secret agent and Akai faked his death, that's the conclusion of this arc, that's the payoff, that's the thing Gosho waited so long to reveal. Will this lead to anything more interesting? Maybe, but I can't react to something that didn't happen yet. Did it feel necessary for this arc to be dragged for so long? Nope. Did it feel necessary to have yet another secret infiltrator inside the BO? Nope.
Moreover, this is much more than just the resolution. Our journey towards this resolution was also pretty crappy. With characters getting derailed, repetitiveness, more unnecessary love stories, the extremely illogical Mystery Train, etc.

As far as what Gosho's plan is. I cannot tell or know if he has a plan (even if he does, how would I know if it's a good plan?). I can only react to what he's putting out on page. Not sure where you're coming from with the dragging it for money and stuff, but you are aware that this series is partly (mostly?) still going because it's popular and it's printing money, right? And it's not like Gosho has full creative control here, as we know he was told by his editor to introduce a female detective in there (which made this arc drag longer). But regardless, whatever Gosho's motivations are for what he was putting on the page, we still can only react to what he's putting on the page as far as criticism goes. This is an extremely long shonen manga that has been going on for much longer than Gosho could have planned, it's okay to admit the series has become redundant. It's okay to admit Gosho is repeating himself. It's okay to admit it's waaaaaaaay past its peak.

Now, I know—"you don't know if there's going to be any actual payoff with the Bourbon arc elements in the future." True, but that statement goes both ways.

This is a 100% strawman.

You see the past seven years and see waste that makes you want to bang your head against the wall, and I see unresolved potential that may yet advance or even end the plot. My view is more optimistic than yours.

You know, you're not really making an effort for a breakthrough here. If you truly think we've made some sort of progress, and you think this has somewhat developed the series, and you think the Bourbon arc has been effective in what it was trying to do (not entirely sure if you think all of those things, but you seem to be arguing against my stance, so I'm kinda assuming you do?), how about trying to describe how it actually accomplished that, or how you think we'll get a bigger payoff? Just saying you're optimistic doesn't give any insight of the quality of the series.

Again, filler = status quo—not saying it's good, just saying it's a part of DC, and the same goes for what you see as mediocre writing. As for the love stories... I like them. I like the characters involved, and I wonder about how they'll confess, not if. I'm willing to wait and see if the unresolved confessions lead to character development. Interesting, suspenseful—all well and good, but I don't need too much of that to enjoy these romances. Why? It's the type of observer of fiction that I am—I'm quite tolerant of many things that others would call out instantly as a reason to stop observing entirely. I can understand why you look down upon and criticize the romances, but for me, the criticisms aren't enough to warrant a cessation of observation.

Ah, so you agree that the romances are mostly filler? Cause that was sort of the point of that whole paragraph. You're being erratic in your arguments, so it's kinda hard to understand what exactly you're trying to say. I did not say one word on whether it's good or bad that this is a very fillery show. I'm very well aware of that fact. I recognize what this series is. I was trying to point that those romances are just as fillery and pointless to the characters (and story) as regular cases, and to a certain extent they can hurt the characters much more than they achieve anything (for example, Shiratori was much more fun before he let us know his entire motivation for going after Sato is because he thought she's that little girl he met once as a kid). Plus again, it's repetitive as hell.
Like, Gosho could give them some sort of arc, or give them actual development based on events that happen to them throughout the series, but instead he gives them love interests and romances that don't really develop them as characters. He could have done nothing with them as well, cause not every single character in a piece of fiction has to be developed. Chiba could have continued his role until the very end of the series (without a love interest), and not a single person would complain.

If this past paragraph, especially the latter part of it, confused you, then that's fine. I'm just quite tolerant about fiction—your expectations are higher. It really doesn't take much for me to enjoy a piece of fiction—it's very hard for me to become bored. This is the first time I've tried to explain how tolerant of fiction I am, so if you're confused, I completely get it. Oh, boy, I wonder how much crap I'll get for this (that is, if anyone responds—if no one responds, then that's that), unless I'm being too self-depreciatory.

It's okay to be tolerant about fiction, but then I don't see what's the point of this discussion. If we both agree that it is what it is, then there's not much to it. But you're kinda arguing against my stance on the current and recent state of the quality of the series (or at least this is what it looks like to me), so saying you are more tolerant about fiction isn't a really an argument. If anything, you're just describing your mindset that allows you to enjoy the series despite its current rather flawed status. If that's all there is to it, then that's fine, but then this isn't really a discussion about the quality of the series.

Yeah, you are—not a bad thing, by any means. Let me ask, did you think, before the Bourbon arc, that you'd be this cynical about DC, once it was through? (That is, if you weren't, already.) At that time, did you think DC would go downhill, or had better and brighter things in its future?

I don't understand the point of this question. How does one predict what he'd feel about a series before it happened? This question is extremely backwards and cannot realistically be answered. Plus, you are somewhat diverging from what this discussion really is about (or at least, the discussion I'm willing to commit to). I have been talking about the quality of the series, while with this question above, you're really targeting my thought process (for some reason), so I really don't think having such a discussion (especially in a public place) is worthwhile (and even privately, it won't get anyone anywhere).
There are storytelling conventions, and I'm trying to deploy them for the sake of explaining why the current state of DC (when it tries to tell a story or write characters) is really not that good.

Finally, thank you for being very articulate and clear in your views—I'm glad I have a better understanding of your views, as well as the views of many of DC's more disappointed fans, who I think would completely concur with your post.

No, man, don't do that. This is fallacious as hell. While people are free to agree with me, I only speak for myself, and you shouldn't assign my views on the series to other people who also happen to be disappointed or not as happy about its current state.

[cchanged]

Tbh, I lost interest in DC after the Black and Red Clash and didn't pick it up again until right before the Scarlet Showdown. So to me, the Bourbon Arc seems shorter than it really was for me since I saw the ending as soon as I got back, but I can see how others are frustrated. And I can also see that we are getting a lot of childhood romances that due to Gosho's laziness. Yes, laziness. In one of the interviews (I don't have the sdb number right now but I remember it was from sdb), one fan asked Gosho why he draws so many childhood lovers, to which Gosho replied that it is because childhood lovers are easier to write. He clearly has the potential to write a good romance as in Sato and Takagi's case, but he doesn't. It is very disappointing that he doesn't put in the effort. In another interview, he said that the Vermouth Arc was a very difficult arc to write because there were so many foreshadowings to be kept tracked of. Clearly he put in a lot of effort there and it paid off; I assume most people enjoy the Vermouth Arc? myself included. The pacing in Bourbon Arc was terribly slow, and I hope the Rum Arc will be better; it currently seems better to me.
Sera is just there...er, it was pretty obvious that she is Akai's sister early on, not much mystery around her except the ones she created herself, like having met Ran and Shinichi before but refusing to tell them. MG, we haven't seen enough of her to judge. She might have been planned to appear even without Sera since Akai readily believed in Haibara as the shrunken Shiho and had no trouble to link Conan and Shinichi. I am sure we will see more family related plot with the two mothers are sisters and the still unsolved Miyano family mystery (oh and Amuro and Elena). I think I can tolerate the family drama well enough, just hoping that Gosho makes them quick. Second bro...what is the purpose of your appearance in the series. If Shuuikichi is the second bro, then some people would probably say he can link the BO to the Tokyo police, BUT Yumi is in the traffic dept not the division that deals with violent crimes or organized crimes.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

@Kor

I waited a few days before checking out your response, since I believed you would respond, and I thought, "Oh, boy... he completely destroyed my post." (And I mean so from a logical argument perspective). And you did—you even claimed strawman on my part because I incorrectly guessed what your counter-argument would be... and you're right. You even called me fallacious for what you interpreted as over-extending your opinion as the voice for all dissatisfied DC fans—it was intended as a compliment, because I felt that filler and bad writing would be cited by many people as reasons why they were dissatisfied. Not all the reasons, of course, but since there were four subsequent posts that effectively concurred with your assessment, I felt a compliment was in order. Apologies for the over-extension. As for the jd quote—I used it beyond its confines. Finally, for the immediate payoff—a blunder on my part. Waiting seven years and wanting payoff at the end of those seven years? Nah, of course not! I should've realized how accusatory my words sounded, due to text being unable to fully convey intent—I didn't mean to come off as accusatory.

I was attacking your thought process and defending Gosho... not a good idea, considering my erratic train of thought, and the "tolerance of fiction" bit... . This was not my intent, but, then, I should have thought about that before posting.

I must apologize—I probably should never have made that post, considering how it was completely irrelevant to discussion it was and how easily deconstructed it was.

Criticism of fiction is completely justified and warranted... I understand why it's so common, on this site, but the cynicism sometimes tires me, since there seems—seems—to be no effort by those dissatisfied to send letters, for example, to Gosho and tell him why they're dissatisfied, in the hope of effecting change. If there is an effort to do this, I haven't noticed, and I presume the reason why is the attitude that such actions will not make a difference.

You're right—part of my post was explaining why I still enjoy DC, and that has nothing to do with DC's quality.

My last post was a mess—and here's hoping I won't make a mistake like that, again—but this post was made in reflection of the errors of my previous post and recognition of your logical response to it. I hope you accept my apology for an attack on your thought process by yours truly, who made illogical arguments and made irrelevant references to his personal tastes. Even if that was not my intent, that was clearly how it came off when you read it.