Changes to Mini-Mafia Game

[PT]

NEW CHANGES HAVE BEEN PROPOSED HERE. PLEASE DISCUSS THEM.

All changes mentioned on this post have already been discussed to death and don't really need further discussion at this time.

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We've recently been discussing making some changes to the mafia bot, and pofa and I decided it would be good to let everyone who plays with us have a chance to give their opinion. So that's what this thread is for. The changes we've discussed will be listed below, and I would like everyone to tell me if they are for or against a particular change, and reasons why for either option.

Any changes that are made will not be implemented until this upcoming weekend, so there are several days to get your opinion in.

I'm including an option to leave the roles as-is, however if you're choosing this, please explain why - and give a decent reason. If you like a role the way it is, please tell me why. This will help to make the best changes (or lack thereof) to the game as possible and hopefully we will continue to have fun with it.

Please remember that all of these are opinions. There is no right or wrong answer.

Just a few guidelines:

1) This is not a thread meant for arguing. This is just for getting everyone's opinion heard. Please try to limit this to one post per person. Everyone's opinion is valid and will be read. You may change your vote for any reason by editing your own post. In some cases there are multiple options for a role. You may vote for multiple options if you choose.

2) Please, for the sake of simplicity, try to bold whether you are for or against a change. I will still read every post, but this would help me greatly.

3) Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. I don't expect there to be any, but this is just a precautionary warning.

PROPOSED CHANGES

BO

°Anokata
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game.
3. Make him the same as Vermouth. (Without a scent + Not BO interrogation when undisguised; Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)
4. Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration. (Takes on a town role that is not in the game and becomes that role. Investigatable as disguised as that role, but not arrestable for being disguised. Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)

°Irish
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove Abduct from Irish - give Abduct to Pisco (and potentially Tequila).

°Pisco
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game.

°Tequila
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game and give his Frighten Ability to Pisco.
3. Keep him in the game and have him mirror Pisco by giving him Abduct and Erase. (Allow only one of Tequila/Pisco per game.)
4. [includes Pisco too] Give them Fake and have them work in the following way: Fake AND Frighten AND Abduct [OR] Fake AND Frighten AND Erase. Allow only one of Pisco/Tequila per game.
5. Give Pisco Abduct/Frighten/Erase. Give Tequila Abduct/Frighten/Fake. Move Bribe x1 to the Black Suitcase.

°Akemi
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give her Fake and Follow to be used in the following way: Night: Fake AND Steal. Day: Follow.

°Black Suitcase
1. Leave the BS as it currently is in Mini Mafia. (Blame x1 OR Fake x1)
2. Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1.

TOWN

°Eri
1. Leave Eri as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change Eri so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night.

°Kujou
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove her from the game.
3. Include her a mirror of Eri.

°Detective Boys
1. Leave them as they currently are in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove them from the game.
3. Separate them so that they would not know each other and could have only one in a game. (This would make it so they're not necessarily taking up 2-3 spaces in the town roster.)
4. Keep them as a group but give them each an extra action they can use separately of the others (and Identify would still only be usable by one per Day phase).

°Kazuha
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove her from the game. Give her Charm ability to Haibara (renamed to Antidote, no notification given unless it is used to successfully save someone; otherwise the same as it currently is). Give her Accompany ability to Agasa.
3. Remove Charm from Kazuha (give Antidote to Haibara). Give Kazuha Heal. Remove Araide from the game. Kazuha would now be able to use Heal at night and Accompany during the day. (Agasa would remain as-is, with gadgets only.)

°Kobayashi
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her First Aid to Heal.

°Araide
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. (If voting to change Kobayashi's First Aid to Heal:) Give him Voice of Reason.
3. Remove him from the game. (This goes with the suggestion to make Kazuha the second healer.)

°Asami
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her name to Sera, give her headgear.

°Kir
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give her a BO scent.

°Akai
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change "BoneBreak" to "SnipeGuard". (Ability will remain the same.)
3. Give him a BO Interrogation result.
4. Both option 2 and option 3.

°Okiya
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him a BO Interrogation result.

°NEW ROLE: AMURO
Faction: Town
Interrogate: BO
Scent: Yes
Age: Adult
Sex: Male
Disguisable: Yes
Items: Gun, CarKeys, Alcohol
Night Actions: Observe x1 AND SpecialInvestigate x1

[KangarooGirl]

Note: it's really hard to get formatting into these posts on the phone so I kinda gave up sorry!
Anokata: I am for option 3. I think current mm Anokata is just useless and that's why we changed FM Anokata in the first place. And I'm real happy with that change. The reason why I don't want yo remove any from the BO pool is because it makes roles like yusaku and Okiya that much stronger and they're already pretty strong imo. Option 3 will probably be easier to program and that way Anokata won't be super duper strong either.

Irish/Pisco/Tequila: I am for taking Abduct away from Irish and giving Pisco and Tequila identical abilities. That way in random Pisco and Tequila have some way to get information and similar point to Anokata about keeping detect from being too overpowering.

Eri: I like the idea of having the option to interrogate or CE. But I'd also like to have kujou as a clone so to speak.

Dbs: I would be a bit sad to see Dbs go tbh because having auto allies is always nice when you're having a bad day. But with the way they are it's potentially two useless roles or if the games small too strong. I don't know if you guys would think having possibility of only one Db in per game is okay? But I'm a little Meh about this particular one either way.

Kazuha/agasa/Haibara: I like the idea of splitting Kazuhas actions to Haibara and agasa although Aly does have a point about potentially agasa being too strong. But it might prevent you giving the gadget to someone only for them to be lynched :x so definitely FOR Haibara getting antidote, neutral about agasa and accompany.

Kir/Akai/Okiya: I am definitely for more townies to interrogate/scent as BO not because I actually think people will use them more but it just really sucks when you just get interrogated and lynched point blank. Especially night 1/day 1.

Kobayashi/araide: I'd also like kobayashi to get heal and therefore make her and araide effectively the same ability-wise. That way the only one with FA is Yamato and he's got other stuff that gives him power.

Amuro I'd real like to try out. I can't see any issue upfront about having that combination so it will be interesting to at least see how that dynamic works. If it turns too powerful we can always change it to observe OR SIx1.

[Jd-]

Let me first note that the point of these changes is to do two key things:

1) Make less useful, less engaging, and less interesting roles more useful, more engaging, and more interesting, without upsetting the game balance.

2) Address issues with current game balance, such as the powerful role that Interrogate plays in the game (so powerful that veteran players feel guilty using it as it has a tendency to insta-win over the Black Org too often).

The changes were not considered with regard to salvaging roles or characters just because we may like their character in the series (such as Kazuha). The goal was to make the game more fun for every role and have less "ugh, this role?" by creating a rule list where all roles are viable, fun, and interesting to play, instead of trying to create a justification for having decidedly less fun roles that are there to provide cover to other, more useful roles.

Roles that were previously not very fun to play have been upgraded, and roles that make the game less engaging or simply more confusing (such as Kujou) were proposed to be removed. This of course does not reflect on this role as a character but instead more on how it contributes to the game's flow and balance, to which some may argue it contributes negatively to that.

These changes were also made with the reality in mind that most mini mafia games do not last very long and do not have the same amount of players that a forum mafia game has. Additionally, mini mafia rounds last in minutes instead of hours, so lesser considerations must be made with regard to that as well.

With that opening statement out of the way, here is my take:

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PROPOSED CHANGES

BO

°Anokata: I am FOR removing Anokata from the game. Anokata is what I would consider a bad role for both the town and the Black Organization. When the town "catches" Anokata, it is almost always just a reaction of, "Oh... OK, Anokata...?". This role is not easily detectable, so there's not really much gratification in finding or seeking him. While the other proposed changes definitely would help, I think the game would be outright better if he were gone, since "Anokata" has no tangible role in the series itself yet and nothing with which we can build a suitable role. Once he has had some sort of action in the plot, we could come up with something. Bash once made an astute point, which was that each character's abilities would, ideally, be reflective of what you would expect them to do as part of their natural character. Someone like Anokata has no form, which makes him just a less interesting disguiser-type even on his best day.

°Irish: I am FOR removing Abudct from Irish and giving it to Pisco (and subsequently giving Pisco Frighten and removing Tequila from the game, as will be elaborated on below). For Irish, he is already quite a powerful character, so shifting some of his abilities to Pisco--a fairly passive and one-trick-pony sort of role as it is--seems like a great prospect to me.

°Pisco: I am FOR changing Pisco and giving him Abduct from Irish and Frighten from Tequila. He is one of the most "Ugh" roles simply because he has so little influence on anything and this will make him a very intriguing and dangerous Black Org member, instead of "Ugh, Pisco".

°Tequila: I am FOR removing him entirely and definitely against mirroring him with Pisco. The Black Organization do not really need mirrors, and Tequila is already an undesirable character in and of himself. Let's also note that having two characters with that set of abilities would be opening the Black Organization up to some seriously dominant rounds. It is a lot better if the Black Organization has few/no mirrors so that the town can make some considerations about how to proceed without worrying about what's going on.

°Akemi: My take on Akemi is to give her Steal at night and Follow in the day. While I understand the idea behind "Follow OR Accompany", I think there will be a lot of unintended circumstances where Akemi can decide a game by controlling the end-game when the numbers are evening out. With just "Follow", she would be pretty balanced, I think. Plus, there's a nice thematic connection with Haibara's role, so that helps homogenize things a little bit. Ultimately, Akemi would still have to be careful about using Follow, as it could easily tip off the town. She would also almost always get "no scent" with her results, and even when she does get a scent, there are so many roles with scents now that it's definitely not a certain APTX. Add this to the person being poisoned could easily just put in their will or mention they were followed and I think we've got a good mix.

°Black Suitcase: Definitely FOR removing Fake and making it "Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1." This will go a long, long, long way toward fixing the Interrogate power problem and will change things up in a very fun way, as far as I'm concerned. Faking actions is just boring and annoying, which makes passing the BS around a hassle to begin with. With this, though, getting "Blame" and "Slander" to use each phase will give any Black Org configuration a fighting chance even in the most dire starting circumstances.

TOWN

°Eri: Completely FOR changing Eri to have Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night. This will make her role a good one, since Lawsuit--while good in theory--sees almost no use and she needs more to do. Interrogate is being weakened, and this will also provide cover for townies with Interrogate. This will be balanced by adding Black Org interrogates to new character Amuro and existing characters Okiya and Akai, etc.

°Kujou: I am very much FOR removing Kujou entirely, and I was one of those who helped create this character from back in the day. She would be fine in a forum mafia round, but right now, she really has no place and her abilities don't work well in the game. There's just no place for her here, and we don't need her. There are a litany of reasons, but I say take her out completely. Eri will be fine as the only person with Cross-Examine, as Cross-Examine shows up the same as Interrogate anyway if I recall, so she has plenty of cover.

°Detective Boys: Completely FOR removing Mitsuhiko, Genta, and Ayumi from the game. It's fine for forum mafia, but it's just simply a hassle in mini mafia. The games aren't big enough, their ability isn't good enough in the small games, etc. There's no reason to keep them for mini mafia apart from just trying to salvage recognizable characters.

°Kazuha: I am updating my post to go with Kleene's suggestion and am FOR the following. Kazuha would become far more useful by losing Charm (renamed to Antidote and adjusted to give no notification unless successful) to Haibara and instead inheriting Heal from Araide. Araide would be removed from the game and Kazuha would keep Accompany (while Agasa would remain the same as before).

°Kobayashi: Totally FOR this change. She's a one-dimensional role as-is, so giving her Heal in place of First-Aid is an excellent change that gives more dimension and purpose to her character. She would keep Voice of Reason for the day to give her a little extra boost.

°Araide: Completely FOR removing Araide from the game and giving his Heal ability to Kazuha (who would lose Charm--now Antidote--to Haibara and would keep Accompany). Araide is a very obscure character in the Conan universe and isn't really someone that reflects well on the game. All of the original balance re-purposes such as making Kobayashi better and creating more cover for her would be totally kept intact by this change, so I say Araide = out.

°Asami: Absolutely 100% FOR changing her to Sera. Sera is a more recognizable character, it fits, and there's no reason at all to keep Asami, either in this spot or another.

°Kir: I am FOR this change to provide less certainty to Haibara's ability. I think it's a good choice.

°Akai: I am FOR changing "BoneBreak" to "SnipeGuard", because "BoneBreak" is not reflective of what the ability actually does until someone explains it to you. Also, giving him a Black Organization interrogate result will give the extra push we need to balance out Interrogate as an ability.

°Okiya: Also FOR giving Okiya a Black Organization result for the same reason as above.

°NEW ROLE: AMURO: I am FOR this role and think it's one of the most interesting combinations in the game. Giving him Black Org scent and a positive Black Org interrogate result will have the added bonus of making Interrogate less powerful (and Follow for Haibara) as well as keeping his nice combination of abilities balanced. Should be a really nice addition to the game.
Faction: Town
Interrogate: BO
Scent: Yes
Age: Adult
Sex: Male
Disguisable: Yes
Items: Gun, CarKeys, Alcohol
Night Actions: Observe x1 AND SpecialInvestigate x1

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Some of the changes are connected, of course. The Black Suitcase changes and the town characters' Interrogate changes are being made to give the Black Organization more cover from Interrogate--an ability widely considered too powerful in its current incarnation.

I again reiterate that salvaging roles just for the sake of keeping more roles in the game is not a productive measure. We have a lot more roles than we'd ever need, and a fair amount of them are not really very positive contributors to the game itself, so removing them/re-allocating their abilities is not a bad thing.

[Kleene Onigiri]

BO

°Anokata
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game.
3. Make him the same as Vermouth. (Without a scent + Not BO interrogation when undisguised; Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)
4. Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration. (Takes on a town role that is not in the game and becomes that role. Investigatable as disguised as that role, but not arrestable for being disguised. Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)

I'm for 4. But since Anokata originally has no scent and no BO interrogate, give him a BO interrogation, regardless of which role he's "disguised" as. (with the new BS, it should be fine then)
I don't like removing BOs, since the amount of roles for BOs side isn't so big. And detect from town would be boosted if you remove BO roles.
So against removing.


°Irish
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove Abduct from Irish - give Abduct to Pisco (and potentially Tequila).

°Pisco
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game.

°Tequila
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game and give his Frighten Ability to Pisco.
3. Keep him in the game and have him mirror Pisco by giving him Abduct and Erase.

Since those 3 roles are connected:
Definitely for removing Abduct from Irish, since Temporary disguise is strong enough alone for one role.
Also for giving Pisco and Tequila Abduct and Frighten.

Or a different variation: Tequila and Pisco each with Abduct, then one with Frighten and the other one with Fake action (since I'm for the option of removing it from BS).
If both have Abduct, they both have a bit of Info gathering. Frighten isn't such a good info gathering ability (since people won't say that their ability was frightened in the open :x) but still strong as an ability. And to make Pisco and Tequila a bit different, giving one of them fake action could be good. Usually, fake action wasn't used with the BS because blaming was better. But if Fake Action can be used without consequences, it could be used more often. It can also give the role a bit of a cover and it might also be used to gather information (aka. "Investigate my ability!" etc.)


°Black Suitcase
1. Leave the BS as it currently is in Mini Mafia. (Blame x1 OR Fake x1)
2. Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1.

For the change so there can be more slandering. Fake action wasn't used much anyway in MM because of the "OR".
And with the additional changes to the BO/not BO roles, it's even better.


TOWN

°Eri
1. Leave Eri as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change Eri so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night.

For giving Eri the Interrogate. Especially useful when All APTX is on.


°Kujou
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove her from the game.

For removing her. Since people seem to want less roles in the pool of roles, I would go with her removal. I also don't like CE as much I guess :x


°Detective Boys
1. Leave them as they currently are in Mini Mafia. (with additional option)
2. Remove them from the game.

Personally, I like when you get an ally early on D: Guess that's... personal opinion again oTL
Also, having more children is also giving conan and Haibara a cover. Removing 3 children and just having 2 children left is very dangerous for Ai and conan to get aptxed easily. So I'm tending more for keeping them in.
Maybe make it like Hopey suggested, so that there can only be one DB at a time. And identify is also good against Anokata I guess. (since I choose option 4 for Anokata).
Otherwise, if we do remove the DBs, I would suggest to remove all children completely. Remove Conan and Haibara would become Shiho instead (so she's a teenager instead of a child). Although it's strange to remove the "Main character" Conan :x


°Kazuha
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia. (with additional option)
2. Remove her from the game. Give her Charm ability to Haibara (renamed to Antidote, no notification given unless it is used to successfully save someone; otherwise the same as it currently is). Give her Accompany ability to Agasa.

°Kobayashi
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her First Aid to Heal.

°Araide
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. (If voting to change Kobayashi's First Aid to Heal:) Give him Voice of Reason.

For Kazuha, Kobayashi and Araide:
I'm for giving Haibara the Charm and rename it to Antidote.
I'm for removing one of those roles. But instead of Kazuha, I would remove Araide. One reason is, that Araide is less of a frequent character in the story than Kazuha and Kobayashi. Another reason is, that I want to keep the number of teenagers, that's why I'm against removing Kazuha. This is also to protect the the other teenager roles from APTX.
Thus I would give Araides Heal to Kazuha instead. And Kobayashi would also get First-Aid upgraded to Heal. Kazuha would keep Accompany, which also gives Haibara a bit of protection against APTX, since both follow-notice-abilities would be from female roles.

So altogether:
Haibara with Charm/Antidote
Kazuha with Heal and Accompany
Kobayashi with Heal and Voice of Reason
Removing Araide


°Asami
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her name to Sera, give her headgear.

I'm for Sera \o/ Trickster also suits her :3


°Kir
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give her a BO scent.

I'm for the scent! \o/ What the other said. Being lynched instantly because of scent is bleh :x


°Akai
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change "BoneBreak" to "SnipeGuard". (Ability will remain the same.)
3. Give him a BO Interrogation result.
4. Both option 2 and option 3.

For the BO interrogation.
But SnipeGuard? You're not guarding the sniper, you're guarding the victim and then breaking the bones of the sniper. Making the name SnipeGuard also confusing, as would BoneBreak. Since people might want to use it on the sniper instead and look for the sniper, although you use that ability on the sniping victim.
So, if not "BoneBreak" and not "SnipeGuard", then I would just simply suggest to use "Guard". That was, the snipe in "SnipeGuard" won't cause confusion.


°Okiya
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him a BO Interrogation result.

For BO interrogation \o/


°NEW ROLE: AMURO
Faction: Town
Interrogate: BO
Scent: Yes
Age: Adult
Sex: Male
Disguisable: Yes
Items: Gun, CarKeys, Alcohol
Night Actions: Observe x1 AND SpecialInvestigate x1[/quote]

For AmuRoll, I mean, for the Amuro role \o/

[PT]

Without getting into things too much, basically, I feel like that some of these changes would actually really help the game. There are a handful of roles that almost everyone dislikes getting - and in FM, yeah, that's probably unavoidable, as we need many diverse roles to cover all the players, and it helps with balance. In MM, that doesn't really need to be the case. Most games, we have 5-9 players, with the high being around 14. We don't particularly need 50 roles to cover that low of a number of players.

Now, onto my actual opinions:

°Anokata
I am FOR either Option 2 or Option 3. Anokata, as he currently stands, is hands-down the worst BO role. He's no fun to be and he has basically nothing to do. So I'm okay with either removing him entirely, or with making him a second Vermouth. His FM iteration is interesting, but probably too overpowered for Mini Mafia (especially since we've had to weaken him in FM anyway). Option 3 would also keep Yuusaku/Okiya (/Bourbon in random games) from being potentially figuring out which BO roles are in right away and not make them stronger - as they are already some of the strongest town roles.

°Irish & °Pisco & °Tequila
I am FOR removing Abduct from Irish and giving it to Pisco (and possibly Tequila), and removing Bribe from the game.

I am FOR giving Pisco Frighten.

I am FOR either removing Tequila from the game OR making him a mirror of Pisco (with Frighten/Erase/Abduct) - PROVIDED that there is a clause in at least Normal games that they cannot be in together. This would give them both some cover in All APTX games from being poisoned immediately.

To touch on Kleene's idea of giving one Fake and one Frighten, I am AGAINST this one. It's not a terrible idea, I just think that if we're making them the same for the purpose of being harder to locate, it wouldn't help if they have different actions. Also the one with Frighten would be inherently stronger than the one with Fake (and Frighten can be a bit of a game changer in small games), which I am not crazy about.

However, as a combination of this and an idea pofa, I would be FOR giving both Pisco and Tequila Fake in the following way: They are able to use Fake + Frighten + Abduct OR Erase each night. (So they can use Fake+Frighten+Abduct OR Fake+Frighten+Erase). This is still ONLY IF we put in a clause that Pisco and Tequila can't be in together for Normal games.

°Akemi (this was another idea pofa and I discussed)
As Akemi is currently only used for stealing and pretty easily caught, pofa suggested that we give her the ability to Fake an action at night and give her Follow for day phases (as there are more townies with scents now, this might be useful for the BO to have). I am FOR this change, making her actions as follows:

Night: Fake AND Steal
Day: Follow

She wouldn't gain too much extra information on her own this way, but it would give her more of a way to ally and blend it.

°Black Suitcase
I am FOR removing Fake from the BS, as it is almost never used - and when it is used, it's almost never used to any real purpose. I am FOR adding slander to the BS and giving the option to BO slander OR Town Slander x1 per night along with using Blame. Interrogate is too strong as is and breaks a lot of the game just because someone happens to have a BO interrogation result. This would help.

°Eri
I am FOR allowing Eri to Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night. CrossExamine is not the most useful ability in MM, even less so in All APTX games. With the changes made to the BS (adding Slander) and changing some Town roles to BO interrogation, Interrogate should not be too powerful.

°Kujou
I am FOR removing Kujou from the game. CrossExamine is still not very useful. :V And Eri has plenty of roles to hide behind since both of her main abilities have Interrogate as their keyword.

°Detective Boys
I am FOR removing the DBs. While having an ally is nice, they are more a detriment to the town than anything else, since people don't ally much and it's hard to just guess who's who. With regard to making Conan/Haibara easier to poison because they're the only children, Haibara at least would have protection in the form of the Antidote. I don't think we would see much of an increase in them being poisoned anyway - especially since most of the time, if someone spots a child, they're going to poison as Haibara first, since she's one of the biggest threats and also one of the hardest to track down otherwise (since no night actions).

°Kazuha & °Araide
I am FOR either removing Kazuha from the game (and splitting her actions between Haibara/Agasa) and giving Araide VoiceofReason OR Kleene's suggestion of making her the second healer in place of Araide (and giving Haibara antidote).

The first option because, as she currently is, she's a role that most people do not enjoy playing (she was my very first role EVER, and I didn't even enjoy her back then). Alternatively, Kleene's suggestion of removing Araide and giving Kazuha Heal in place of Charm (and giving Antidote to Haibara). I don't think that the teens are too easy to poison as is, but I am completely for replacing adult roles with teen roles, as it will mean that potentially not ever role in the game is an adult. :V And the snipers might have a slightly easier time.

So Kleene's suggestion, in summary, was this:
Haibara with Charm/Antidote
Kazuha with Heal and Accompany
Kobayashi with Heal and Voice of Reason
Removing Araide
(Leaving Agasa as is)

°Kobayashi
I am DEFINITELY FOR giving her Heal instead of First Aid. First Aid is mostly useless and it just makes her weak and un-fun. Yamato can keep First Aid because he has other stuff he could do instead.

°Asami
I am FOR changing her to Sera. Most people don't even know who Asami is.

°Kir
I am FOR giving her a scent.

°Akai
I am FOR giving him a BO interrogation result AND changing BoneBreak to SnipeGuard. BoneBreak is confusing. SnipeGuard isn't confusing to most people.

°Okiya
I am FOR giving him a BO interrogation result.

°NEW ROLE: AMURO
I am FOR adding this role to the game and testing it out.

[Yurikochan]

I can type this out and actually say how I feel, but Hayley's post almost totally mirrors my feelings.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of Araide and not Kazuha.

I was also thinking if Eri being too easy to get caught and aptxed, we can make Kujou a mirror of her. Just for more protections. I will write the rest, but I feel like playing mm right now.

[pofa]

Hmm let's see...for most of these proposed changes, I think.

Anokata:

I'm for option 4 or 3.I personally think Anokata needs to either be changed or removed, but I would prefer he be changed. I would be fine with either option 3 or 4, because even though Vermouth and Anokata would then be "clones," I have noticed that there are 3 things that make me go "thank god" when I'm BO: Snipers, Bourbon, and roles like Vermouth or Irish that will give the group diverse town abilities. I think it would lead to more fun diverse BO ability lineups to have three roles possible for such a thing. Even if the BO was made up of all those three "clone" roles, they'd have different disguises, so it's not like having 3 of the same role. *likes a lot of diversity* This would make Vermouth weaker, but not imo weak enough to be a bad role, since the only real difference is scent (nobody ever gets their disguises removed and interrogated, so )

Irish

For removing abduct to give to another role and leaving him otherwise the same.

Pisco

For Option 2 (giving him abduct and Frighten). I do like the idea about possibly giving Tequila and/or Pisco "Fake Action." It would help with allying ability--Pisco would be able to know, for instance, that Shinichi wasn't in the game or was dead, and would be able to fake investigate to claim that role. And even so, the town would probably catch on to Pisco's presence pretty fast, because Erase and Frighten are both visible actions--so Pisco would have the chance to ally but also would need to be careful cause people would be on the lookout :x (I talked about this with PT earlier and she suggested we give the option of using either Abduct OR Erase + Fake and Frighten so he's not getting too much info at once?) Some combo of the four actions sounds like fun to me, and I haven't thought "fun" about Pisco's role ever, so XD *shrug*

Tequila

I think the only way it's going to matter is if we're going to continue to play a lot of random or AllAPTX games. If so, I'm definitely for making Tequila and Pisco clone roles and adding in the clause that they can't both be in the same game. I don't see it mattering whether there's one or both in normal games, since they couldn't both be in anyway and the town can't poison.

Black Suitcase

For Option 2 (remove fake, add slander/blame)

Eri

For CE/Interrogate option.

Kujou

No preference. If she stays, I think she should have the same ability changes as Eri, but I won't care if she's removed either.

Detective Boys

For removing them. If the time comes where we're consistently having games of 10+, that's different, but right now the advantage of having an ally doesn't make up for the terrible balance having them in usually gives the town, since they're taking up 2-3 slots with the same non-defensive, non-offensive ability. I don't think we need them to catch Vermouth/Anokata, since they can be investigated/CE'd, etc.

Kazuha

I like Kleene's idea XD Remove Araide, keep Kazuha and give her heal + accompany I'd rather keep as many teens as possible in the game.

Kobayashi

For changing her FA to heal and leaving her with VoR

Araide

For removing him and giving his Heal to Kazuha.

Asami

For changing her to Sera

Kir

For giving her a scent.

Akai

For option 4 (snipe guard change + added BO interrogate)

Okiya

For option 2 (giving him a BO interrogate and a disguised status jk not really

Amuro

Yes let's do it

One more thing; what about Akemi? :X She's the BO role left that's kind of meh--stealing is fun, but it gets you caught real fast and she has no way to ally. Would it be unreasonable to also give her Fake Action, or maybe, like Special Investigate 1 so she has something? And/or do what we did in FM and take away her BO-interrogation status?

[Raiden]

BO

°Anokata
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game.
3. Make him the same as Vermouth. (Without a scent + Not BO interrogation when undisguised; Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)
4. Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration. (Takes on a town role that is not in the game and becomes that role. Investigatable as disguised as that role, but not arrestable for being disguised. Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)

---

I am FOR either removing him from the game all-together or make him with how he is currently in Forum Mafia--whichever the majority leans toward I guess. I wouldn't mind keeping him in to see how the FM version works in MM, it would also make one more BO Members for the Detectors have in mind.

°Irish
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove Abduct from Irish - give Abduct to Pisco (and potentially Tequila).

---

Totally for removing Abduct from Irish and give it to Pisco -- still gave me something to think about; more on that below!

°Pisco
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game.

---

I wouldn't mind a little more insight on this one; I am totally for giving him Frighten and Abduct. But does that mean he get to Frighten, Erase, AND Erase each night? I am a little concerned it may too much. Maybe if it were Frighten and Erase OR Abduct though?

°Tequila
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove him from the game and give his Frighten Ability to Pisco.
3. Keep him in the game and have him mirror Pisco by giving him Abduct and Erase.

---

I don't think anyone will be surprised by my choice on this will be...
I am FOR removing Tequila and the Bribe ability from the game and giving Frighten to Pisco.

°Black Suitcase
1. Leave the BS as it currently is in Mini Mafia. (Blame x1 OR Fake x1)
2. Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1.

---

I am FOR the change to the Black Suitcase; for similar reasons as everyone else has given already so will keep it at that.

TOWN


°Eri
1. Leave Eri as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change E so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night.

---

I am FOR the change to Eri. Makes her a lot more useful!

°Kujou
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove her from the game.

---

Only reason I could see her kept in the game would be if she was given same abilities as Eri--that would make them give each some cover from the Snipers Observe-Gender ability (they would be the only female interrogators). It's not like every role need a counter for every ability either though, so would not mind if she were removed from the game. I can see her as an asset in Forum Mafia games for above stated reasons, but Mine Mafia games are usually too short to be of any real concern.

°Detective Boys
1. Leave them as they currently are in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove them from the game.

---

I am FOR for either remove them from play or make it so they can be alone in a game. While it's always nice to be teamed up with a partner(s) at beginning they are not a exciting roles to get since only one DB can identify per day. The other(s) are just fillers to give Conan and Haibara a cover from snipers. :V

°Kazuha
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Remove her from the game. Give her Charm ability to Haibara (renamed to Antidote, no notification given unless it is used to successfully save someone; otherwise the same as it currently is). Give her Accompany ability to Agasa.

---

Hmm. I'm FOR Haibara getting the Antidote ability, but shares Hayley's concerns about Agasa getting to powerful if he gets Kazuha's Accompany ability on top of gadgets, and while I do like Kleene's idea I got another proposal: Give Agasa Accompany BUT make it so he has to choose which gadget to give out during the day. Like, Bowtie OR Watch + Accompany ability.

What do everyone think of that? =)

°Kobayashi
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her First Aid to Heal.

---

I'm FOR Kobayashi's First Aid to change to Heal. Makes her much more useful than a one trick pony so to speak... V:

°Araide
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. (If voting to change Kobayashi's First Aid to Heal:) Give him Voice of Reason.

---

I'm FOR either Araide mirroring Kobayashi or replace him with a Kazuha with same abilities. I like the fact Kazuha gives a cover for other teens and there's already many adults. Makes things trickier for the snipers.

°Asami
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change her name to Sera, give her headgear.

---

Feel sad for Asami... But yes, all FOR Sera to take over the role of second town trickster! \o/ It suits her nature too.

°Kir
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give her a BO scent.
&
°Akai
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Change "BoneBreak" to "SnipeGuard". (Ability will remain the same.)
3. Give him a BO Interrogation result.
4. Both option 2 and option 3.
&
°Okiya
1. Leave him as he currently is in Mini Mafia.
2. Give him a BO Interrogation result.

---

All FOR Akai and Okiya to get BO result and Kir to get a scent. Reason already mentioned by others above me. I'm indifferent to the name change of BoneBreak > SnipeGuard...I'll go with whatever the majority decide on.

°NEW ROLE: AMURO

---

All FOR having Amuro appear as a role. I'm curious how he's combination of abilities will work out too!

---

---

---

I think that's all I have to say. I hope most of it makes sense too, it's gotten pretty late here. ^^;

[Fujiwara]

°Anokata
I'm in favor of
4. Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration.

°Irish
I wouldn't mind leaving him as is, but since giving abduct to Pisco (and maybe Tequila)
is more about Pisco (and Tequila), I guess I'm in favor of that.
2. Remove Abduct from Irish - give Abduct to Pisco (and potentially Tequila).

°Pisco
2. Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game.
Though I think this combo is pretty powerful.

°Tequila
3. Keep him in the game and have him mirror Pisco by giving him Abduct and Erase.

°Black Suitcase
2. Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1.
More slander \o/ (Though I like Fake too. How will I be able to fake-Protect PT now? D:)

TOWN

°Eri
2. Change Eri so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night.
Definitely that. Eri is 100% useless with AllAPTX on.

°Kujou
I'd be in favor of removing her or maybe making her an Eri copy.

°Detective Boys
Hmm ... I do like having friends/lovers/other DBs. Instead of removing the DB because having them steal 2 places is too much, why don't we give them an extra ability? They'd still share the identify, but each DB also has another ability ...

°Kazuha
Leave her be! D:

°Kobayashi
2. Change her First Aid to Heal.

°Araide
2. (If voting to change Kobayashi's First Aid to Heal:) Give him Voice of Reason.
Araide x Kobayashi OTP, clearly

°Asami
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia. <-- This
2. Change her name to Sera, give her headgear. <-- XD XD I really don't think tricking suits Sera.

°Kir
2. Give her a BO scent.

°Akai
4. Both option 2 and option 3. <-- More BO interros!

°Okiya
2. Give him a BO Interrogation result.
3. Give him MakeCurry x1 I mean

°NEW ROLE: AMURO
Faction: Town
Interrogate: BO
Scent: Yes
Age: Adult
Sex: Male
Disguisable: Yes
Items: Gun, CarKeys, Alcohol
Night Actions: Observe x1 AND SpecialInvestigate x1 OR MakeSandwiches x1 <-- Fixed that for you.

In favor of Amuro! \o/

[PT]

Hey guys, I've added a few more suggestions that were brought up either here or on IRC. The additions are in blue, so if you could please look over them when you have a chance and see if you'd rather those options that what you might have chosen before, that would be great. I'll still be reading through the posts. Thanks!

[PT]

Double-posting with an update here.

As we are trying to push these changes through fairly quickly (the options are really either this weekend or a few weeks from now, and it would be better to do as much as we can now and have time to test it - at least in my opinion), I'm going to go ahead and assume the things that nobody has disagreed one should be changed definitely. As for the other stuff, I will open a new thread where actual voting (though not a poll as this is a bit too complicated for that) will take place. I will link here once it's opened, and I would like all of you and anyone else who plays with us to take a vote.

This thread will, of course, still be open for giving opinions, but I would prefer to focus on the things that have some dissent.

The following changes have been unanimously agreed on thus far and will be added to the list of things to change (unless there turns out to be a lot of votes against them from this point forward):

» Irish: remove Abduct.
» Black Suitcase: Remove Fake. Change to Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 OR Town Slander x1.
» Eri: Change night actions to Cross Examine x1 OR Interrogate x1.
» Kobayashi: Change night action from First Aid to Heal.
» Kir: Give her a scent.
» Akai: Add BO Interrogation.
» Okiya: Add BO Interrogation.
» Amuro: Add new role.

---

In the new post, there will be voting on both the issues that most people have agreed with (though at least one has disagreed with) along with the ones that seem to have less agreement, along with suggestion such as Akemi that people have not yet really discussed.

» Anokata
» Pisco/Tequila
» Kujou
» Akemi
» Detective Boys
» Kazuha/Haibara/Araide
» BoneBreak
» Asami

[PT]

Voting thread is up HERE! Please go vote ASAP!

[bash7353]

• Anokata
  Option 4: Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration. (Takes on a town role that is not in the game and becomes that role. Investigatable as disguised as that role, but not arrestable for being disguised. Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.) The fact that Anokata might be around is one of those things that tends to always make me paranoid in big games. I agree that the role is very powerful, but if we were to introduce the new FM rule that Anokata comes back positive for disguising as the role he or she "is" it should be fine. I'd hate to get rid of him altogether...
• Pisco
  Option 2: Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game. I think Bribe and Erase are too powerful for games as small as Mini Mafia rounds often are.
• Irish
  Depends on what we do with Pisco. If Pisco gets Abduct, Irish should lose it. We don't need two BO roles with that action. If not, Irish can keep Abduct.
• Tequila
  Option 2: Remove him from the game and give his Frighten Ability to Pisco. I don't think Tequila's necessary. We can throw him out.
• Akemi
  Option 2: Give her Fake and Follow to be used in the following way: Night: Fake AND Steal. Day: Follow. If we are to remove Fake from the Black Suitcase and make Anokata similar to FM's that person, it would make sense to give Fake to another BO role. Akemi would be the only one who can use Fake. If we want Anokata to continue to be able to fake actions, Akemi shouldn't also have that action, though. As far as Follow is concerned, that's not a bad idea. Previously, when you were notified that you've been followed it meant either Haibara or Kazuha did that. If someone knows you received that notification even though you didn't tell anybody about it, it very close to proves them town. The possibility they may be Akemi would take that away.
• Black Suitcase
  Option 2: Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1. I would even go one step further and say Blame x1 and BO Slander x1 and Town Slander x1. Gin would lose Slander. There are a lot of actions for whoever gets that role to type in in that short amount of time anyway.
• Eri
  Option 2: Change Eri so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night. Cross Examine is not all that useful, especially when it comes to Random games with AllAPTX turned on.
• Kujou
  Option 2: Remove her from the game. Cross Examine is again not all that useful... I don't think we need her.
• Detective Boys
  Option 2: Remove them from the game. "Auto-allies" can be pretty powerful in small games. Don't think they'll be missed.
• Kazuha
  Option 2: Remove her from the game. Give her Charm ability to Haibara (renamed to Antidote, no notification given unless it is used to successfully save someone; otherwise the same as it currently is). Give her Accompany ability to Agasa.
• Araide
  Option 3: Remove him from the game. (This goes with the suggestion to make Kazuha the second healer.) I think Araide is one of those characters that people will have forgotten about by the time that Kir is introduced. He basically only appears during the Vermouth arc and hasn't had much significance beyond that.
• Asami
  Another character many won't remember. I don't think we should just make her Sera, though. The character Sera is too cool for her role to just be a trickster. But that's probably just me...
• Kir
  Option 2: Give her a BO scent. Scent circumvents disguises, so adding someone Scent would reveal
• Akai
  Option 4: Change "BoneBreak" to "SnipeGuard". (Ability will remain the same.) and give him a BO Interrogation result. The name chnage makes things clearer and we need Interrogate to be less powerful, so that's both a good idea.
• Okiya
  Option 2: Give him a BO Interrogation result. Interrogate indicating the wrong thing more often is a good thing.
• AMURO
  Let's give it a try.

[aly_angelflight]

Anokata: I'm going to go with 3 now. Removing more BO roles from the game just skews things more towards town (especially with detect), and frankly, town wins most of the time as it is. Also, more BO with disguises means that people would be more willing to act on disguise leads. As it stands now, if you catch someone in disguise and you're not Kid or Yukiko, you're not inclined to announce it as a lead because the chance of them being town is the same as the chance of them being BO.

Irish: Yeah, take Abduct off of him and give it to Tequila and Pisco. He already has costumes to make him useful, and most Irish players are so busy worrying about their disguise actions that they forget the Abduct anyhow.

Pisco/Tequila: Make them mirrors of each other with Abduct/Erase/Frighten. However, I think having both Erase and Frighten useable at the same time by one role is a bit too powerful in small games, especially in random with All APTX off; I'd be more for Abduct + one of Erase or Frighten as their actions instead. (Bribe can leave MM.)

Akemi: Follow? I would've never thought to give her that particular ability, but it fits since Shiho and Akemi are canonically the only two who could catch the BO scent and not entirely useless (especially if we're boosting the number of townies with scents). But definitely give her fake--it's usually Akemi who needs the fake the most since she has to give people doubt that she might be Kid.

BS: Yeah, switch it to Slander OR Blame and take off fake.

Eri: Give her Interrogate OR CE.

Kujou: I don't really care whether we keep her or not, but if we do, make her mirror Eri.

DB: Hmm... Either take them out outright, or make it so only one DB can be in.

Kazuha: As I said before, Agasa with the gadgets and Accompany is way too powerful of a role, so I'm very much in favor of having Kazuha essentially becoming Araide with Accompany while Haibara gets Antidote for APTX-stopping.

Kobayashi: Switch her to a healer.

Araide: Remove him in favor of having Kazuha be the new healer.

Asami: Yeah, change her to Sera. It's not like any of the old female tricksters made any sense, either, and at least people know who Sera is.

Kir: Give her a BO scent, especially if we're giving Akemi Follow.

Akai: Have him interrogate as BO. Changing BoneBreak to SnipeGuard is purely aethestic, really, and if we're going with aesthetic changes I'd like Discombobulate to be changed to simply Trick, too.

Okiya: Have him interrogate as BO.

Amuro: I already said I approved of it when we came up with the idea.

Also... weren't we also considering changing First Aid to give just a temporary injury?

[Conia]

First of all, for the options that I'm gonna vote for below, I agree with everything that other people said as arguments for voting them. I'll also add a bit of my own explanation for them.


°Anokata
4. Make him similar to his current Forum Mafia iteration. (Takes on a town role that is not in the game and becomes that role. Investigatable as disguised as that role, but not arrestable for being disguised. Remove blame from Anokata, make it usable only by BS.)

I think that giving Anokata a powerful way to be undetected + any kind of suitable actions will stop making this character a hassle. Also passing Blame to BS only will help Anokata to not be pinpointed easily.

°Irish
2. Remove Abduct from Irish - give Abduct to Pisco (and potentially Tequila).

Most people just forget Irish has Abduct and Irish's actions usually require some more focus than Pisco/Tequila's, so this change should be ok.

°Pisco
2. Give him Abduct and Frighten. Remove Bribe from the game.

Will explain below

°Tequila
5. Give Pisco Abduct/Frighten/Erase. Give Tequila Abduct/Frighten/Fake. Move Bribe x1 to the Black Suitcase.

I think this is the best option of the ones listed, but also to note: They still shouldn't be both in the game, since double abduct would be quite powerful. Also I feel that Frighten+Erase would be powerful in MMs, maybe make it Frighten OR Erase for Pisco. Another option I would like to see is Abduct/Frighten/Fake for both characters and make Erase a Black Suitcase action, which will grant Pisco a much desired cover for erased murders.

°Akemi
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.

I don't think Akemi needs Follow, as a town-exclusive action with a heavy drawback, it doesn't need more counters to it. Fake could work but it has been said how little it is used or liked and its effectiveness was never enough for MM, if it's added it really won't change a thing.

°Black Suitcase
2. Remove Fake. Change it to: Blame x1 AND BO Slander x1 [OR] Blame x1 AND Town Slander x1.

Making slander available to potentially all the BO should help to make the town not rely so much on Interrogate results.

TOWN

°Eri
2. Change Eri so that she can Cross Examine OR Interrogate at night.

Cross Examine fell pray to random minimafias, Interrogate should cope in nicely.

°Kujou
3. Include her a mirror of Eri.

When Kujou was introduced, it's main purpose was to mirror Eri, just not be a clone (So VoA was introduced) Keeping this idea in the game is the best in my opinion.

°Detective Boys
3. Separate them so that they would not know each other and could have only one in a game. (This would make it so they're not necessarily taking up 2-3 spaces in the town roster.)

Adding that striked out text is how I think they should work: Any number of DBs can be in the game. A DB being in the game or not shouldn't determine if the Group status activates. The bot should pick roles all independently, if it happens to pick 2 or 3 DBs for the game, then the Group status will activate and they will know each other. If there's only 1 DB, they will be alone.

°Kazuha
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.

Kazuha's role is a tricky one, as it has a whole bunch of unique abilities. I vote to keep her as she is, maybe with the addendum to add Protect to her as night action since her martial art skill is supposed to match Ran's. Branching off her actions make other roles stronger when they already are stronger than the average townie, it also adds drawbacks to roles that already have to deal with that. Removing her also means one less teen, and there's already quite few of them, they need to keep a number considering that the BO uses Observe more than SO in most cases.

°Kobayashi
2. Change her First Aid to Heal.

Makes her better without necessarily making her stronger.

°Araide
2. (If voting to change Kobayashi's First Aid to Heal:) Give him Voice of Reason.

Not sure if there's a need to power him up to Kobayashi's level, since VoR is RARELY put to a good use, but since VoR's influence is quite poor all-around, maybe another user will make it more interesting. Let's see how it works.

°Asami
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.

I'm in favor of swapping out Asami, just don't think that Sera quite fits that role. I'm voting neutral on this one, so keep it as it is.

°Kir
1. Leave her as she currently is in Mini Mafia.

Haibara always knew that Kir isn't a bad person, I don't see a need to change this in the game. Akai and Amuro will have BO scent, that already helps as a mask, and unlike Interrogation, Haibara leaves a trail if she actually follows a BO, so it has a huge drawback.

°Akai
4. Both option 2 and option 3.

Making it a different name than FM is just confusing for everyone. BO result helps to mask the BO against Interrogate, much needed for small games.

°Okiya
2. Give him a BO Interrogation result.

Again, helps to make Interrogate less reliable.

°NEW ROLE: AMURO
Faction: Town
Interrogate: BO
Scent: Yes
Age: Adult
Sex: Male
Disguisable: Yes
Items: Gun, CarKeys, Alcohol
Night Actions: Observe x1 AND SpecialInvestigate x1

Let's give it a shot.