ESPIONAGE: Round Three (Spies & Informants Win)

[Raifuujin]

1. Team 5: RoboG55 and Meme
2. Team 7: Kamite and breva
3. Team 8: Jecka and miyano_shiho
4. Team 11: KleeneOnigiri and Miaka
5. Team 4: Jd- and Kaito Lady

[Togop]

shinichi'saprentice wanted my list:
Team 11: KleeneOnigiri and Miaka
Team 2: Raifuujin and Fujiwara
Team 3: shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth
Team 1: Hime-chan and Stopwatch
Team 9: KainTheVampire and Jellito

[Iwamoto Yuri]

Congratulations on winning! That first spy win so far.

I found that an interesting round. While as far as my actions go, MiyanoShiho's rule violations and Robo's post didn't make much difference (the only team I remember that Miyano exonerated was Robo's; I didn't retract my vote for them based on that; and I made sure to not reference that list any further) I see why you'd be upset about that.
But I don't agree with the way the phase ended. Ending it abruptly three hours early without any advance warning doesn't help in any way resolve the problems with revealing information that shouldn't be revealed. It should have been either a spy victory (as Jd-'s initial request was) or the day should have ended normally. The way it happened, I log in to once again consider everything and decide between dumytru/Cider and Kamite/breva (which would have been my suspects without any illigal interference anyway) only to see that the round ends in 15 minutes! Having the full three hours wouldn't have changed the result of the round, and maybe wouldn't have changed my vote either, but that doesn't change my disappointment.

I warned you guys 1:30 hours beforehand. Your reaction only shows me my decision was right. The posts were going in circles and I was getting sick of it, so, with barely any change in sight and a migraine of the stess I got trying to figure out what exactly went wrong I decided I didn't want to wait those three extra hours.

[Togop]

I warned you guys 1:30 hours beforehand.

That doesn't could as a sufficient prior warning.I was not online then.
As I said in a PM to you, if you had migraine or any other problems, you could have announced the results later after you were fine, based only on the votes sent in on time.

edit: checking back, I didn't actually say that in the PM

Your reaction only shows me my decision was right.

My reaction was disappointment and irritation. If that was your goal, then your decision was indeed right.

[shinichi'sapprentice]

i do not deserve MVP!!!! as i wasn't able to catch the spies.

i have questions, Togop, --

ahHH!! boss keeps walking around me. i'll post later!!

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Shihichi:

1. Team 10: Cider and dumytru
2. Team 7: Kamite and breva
3. Team 5: RoboG55 and Meme
4. Team 2: Raifuujin and Fujiwara
5. Team 3: shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth

Congratulations on winning! That first spy win so far.

I found that an interesting round. While as far as my actions go, MiyanoShiho's rule violations and Robo's post didn't make much difference (the only team I remember that Miyano exonerated was Robo's; I didn't retract my vote for them based on that; and I made sure to not reference that list any further) I see why you'd be upset about that.
But I don't agree with the way the phase ended. Ending it abruptly three hours early without any advance warning doesn't help in any way resolve the problems with revealing information that shouldn't be revealed. It should have been either a spy victory (as Jd-'s initial request was) or the day should have ended normally. The way it happened, I log in to once again consider everything and decide between dumytru/Cider and Kamite/breva (which would have been my suspects without any illigal interference anyway) only to see that the round ends in 15 minutes! Having the full three hours wouldn't have changed the result of the round, and maybe wouldn't have changed my vote either, but that doesn't change my disappointment.

That's what I'm saying. But we can't be sure if someone would have said to vote breva/Kamite instead.

@Jd: I skimmed "What happened". Was there something important in it? D: I'll read it again then.
But look! You took time to do something and someone just skimmed over it! Almost feels like someone just didn't give you the 3 hours that were planed? Right?

I don' t care about winning. The best choice would have been to stop the game after the last phase (so day 5 not happening).
But the GM decided to go through with it. Which is perfectly fine.

But then, after everyone put their efforts into it, the game just suddenly stops earlier, with the Spy winning. A GM has to be neutral at ALL times!
She stopped it after most votes were sent to Team 10, so yuri knew the spy wouldn't have been arrested. I didn't want to say it before, but that behaviour isn't being neutral as a GM. As a GM you would simply wait till the phasechange time arrived. Silently cheering for whoever you want to win. But still being neutral to everyone.
Knowing that phasechange would be changed 1:30 hours before isn't an excuse. The phasechange happened suddenly for everyone.
Being GM is hard and not easy. You always have to stay neutral and keep your emotions in check and not doing stuff that could give someone an advantage.
But having a phasechange end earlier while not announcing it at least 20hours before is the biggest taboo a GM can make.

I don't blame yuri tho. She was probably stressed over what happened with the rule breaking. And I don't blame the ones that broke the rules either. They didn't mean it and the rules aren't 100% clear what's allowed (tho posting the entire list is not allowed for sure D: Altho I never saw what really happened)

But Jd, I can ask you the same. Do you really think 3 hours wouldn't have been enough to convince people that breva/Kamite are actually the spy? In my post before I was suspicious of them a lot. Do you really think the spy/informant deserve this win? Although the civilians didn't get all the time they were supposed to have?
If you think the spy/informant team deserve their win, then so be it.
Personally, I think there is no winner in this game. If we would have stopped the game early, no one would have said anything against it.
But now there are only ifs left, people being misunderstood and not taken seriously. And that is a sad state.

[Jd-]

@Jd: I skimmed "What happened". Was there something important in it? D: I'll read it again then.

You lied. You told me you read the post. You said, "I've read the earlier post." You said those exact words. We all know there was no possible satisfying end-game after what happened last night. By going on about it endlessly, you are only succeeding in creating ill feelings for the people who were involved in us getting this to this point. That includes the GM and anyone who inadvertently made a mistake with reveals before.

Now, that is the end of that. I will not be replying to anything else you post in this topic. You have thoroughly demonstrated that you are no longer deserving of my attention and you will get no more of it on this matter. If you further disrupt calm and reasoned discussion on this round here (especially compared to the people who actually took the time to read the summation I spent ages preparing exactly to avoid most of what you've posted), moderation of further posts here is not out of the question.

[Stopwatch]

@everyone but mostly Jd-: I agree about reform being needed for how the rules are maintained. This idea may be really stupid, but if possible it could help control any leaks. If GMs are given temporary mod powers then they can edit posts rapidly without the need to wait for someone else with mod powers to come along and be asked to sort it out then that could at least speed up the process of countering rule breaks such as happened in this game. If the rules won't always hold then there needs to be decent damage control at least. Of course, if this isn't possible or you don't want to implement it I can also see why.

@everyone but mostly Yuri: However, I think that changing the phase change as it was could have been handled a lot better. I think the options were to fully stop the game, or to let it run on, rather than doing something to further alter the game, especially considering that phase changes are as long as they are to account for timezones and so shortening it as you did stopped *only certain* players from having their say.

In most other aspects though I think Yuri did a decent job, so thanks for GMing ^^.

I had stuff to say about the actual game, but with all the meta stuff I've kind of forgotten a lot of it.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

I admit it was a bit late, but I stopped it after the deadline arrived! It was them that voted for team 10.
I was staying neutral, who people voted for was their decision. Honestly I expected them to all vote team 7 Well, they didn't.

@Togop.
You are being an ass and you know it. The migraine was a direct result from these last moments. Yes I let it go on, I wanted to see where things were going even with a disadvantage on the spy team, but when a game is affecting me outside the internet I know it's time to stop. I'm sorry if that made you vote the wrong person.

[Stopwatch]

Btw...

1. Team 3: shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth
2. Team 7: Kamite and breva
3. Team 6: Conan-chandesune and Togop
4. Team 5: RoboG55 and Meme
5. Team 10: Cider and dumytru

[dumytru]

Alright.

@Kleene:
I think you're overreating a bit by saying you won't play this game ever again. You have all the rights to be upset.
But try to understand why Jd- the way he did.
If I wasn't acting the way I did, probably I wouldn't been nominated as the Spy, and it would be obvious that the Spy is kamite & breva.
It must've been really hard for the Infoomants and the Spies to deal with the miyano's posts, so I give them credit for that.

I don't agree with ending the game three hours earlier. It should've been either cut one day earlier (by saying that there are few teams left, so only one day to catch the spy), either not at all.
But even so I don't think it would've changed the result.

Even if Kleene's team voted with kamite/breva instead of team #10, it wouldn't have made any difference at all.
Nobody would've follow her. Why?
No matter what she would have said, everyone else nominated me first, and Breva/kamite were their last suspects.
They wouldn't just change their vote without any hard evidence.
Sorry if you actually have any hard evidence. But I doubt that, since you included me in your suspect list.

So I don't think the civilians would've win this round in any case.
In any case meaning:
-even if Day 5 was 24 hours
-even if miyano broke or not the rules
-even if Kleene would've tried to back me up

I even gave up before Yuri announced the earlier ending. So it was pretty obvious I was going to get arrested.

Anyway, don't get annoyed to much. If you want, you could post that last deduction of yours. I'd certainly like to read it. Actually, I want to!
Don't say things like "you'll never play again".

---

@Yuri
Thanks for GMing this round. I know it's not easy to do it, and you did it pretty well, especially since it's the first time you do it.
And you also came across illegal posts, so that was that. Thanks again!

@theDetectives:
So the question remain: Why Breva?

So did the Detetives knew breva & kamite were the Spies?

@Jd-
I said it again, but you did an awesome job as the Informant.
I have a question. I thought about it in Day 4, but--- you said you thought we were the Detectives.
You said that only because I said I thought you were the Detectives, right?

@shinichi's apprentice
1. Team 4: Jd- and Kaito Lady
2. Team 5: RoboG55 and Meme
3. Team 11: KleeneOnigiri and Miaka
4. Team 3: shinichi'sapprentice and googleearth
5. Team 9: KainTheVampire and Jellito

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Jd: I skimmed "What happened". Was there something important in it? D: I'll read it again then.

You lied. You told me you read the post. You said, "I've read the earlier post." You said those exact words. We all know there was no possible satisfying end-game after what happened last night. By going on about it endlessly, you are only succeeding in creating ill feelings for the people who were involved in us getting this to this point. That includes the GM and anyone who inadvertently made a mistake with reveals before.

Now, that is the end of that. I will not be replying to anything else you post in this topic. You have thoroughly demonstrated that you are no longer deserving of my attention and you will get no more of it on this matter. If you further disrupt calm and reasoned discussion on this round here (especially compared to the people who actually took the time to read the summation I spent ages preparing exactly to avoid most of what you've posted, moderation of further posts here is not out of the question.

Maybe you should calm down first too.
I did say I read it, thinking the "What happened" was just a summary of the events and I just skimmed it. And since I read it now it actually is a summary of what was revealed.
It hasn't much mention of shichichi's apprentice. Not that summary part at least.

But there were other people disappointed with the sudden phase change too. And I think people should be allowed to say they didn't like that sudden phase change so it won't happen in the future. And I also said I don't blame Yuri or the ones that broke the rules. Everyone makes mistakes.
But the early phase change isn't recognized as a mistake by most people. Maybe mistake is a harsh word for it. But there were better options to choose. An early phasechange is never good in a forum game, because people from other timezons will feel left behind.

And that's exactly how I feel. I don't mind who wins or loses.
But feeling left out is the worst. And that's exactly how I feel right now. Since it doesn't seem to matter how I feel about the situation or what I think about it. I'm not even allowed to say my concerns.
I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, not Jd, the spy the GM or any other player. I was told that I sound rude a lot. I don't mean that. It's just how I write because I'm not a native English speaker and I'm bad in writing in general. I just wanted to say that I wasn't happy with the sudden end. Everyone voted besides my team... so yeah That's being left out. That's why, in future rounds, please don't make a sudden early phase change. Because of the time zones, someone will definitely feel being forgotten.

[dumytru]

I forgot about this. We can make Round 3 a Draw.

I'm sure nobody would mind it.

[Jellitto]

I forgot about this. We can make Round 3 a Draw.

I'm sure nobody would mind it.

What is Draw?

I´ll post what the Detectives were doing tomorrow, currently writing it but can´t finish it today.

@jellito: Draw is the same as a tie.

Okay, thanks!

[Kleene Onigiri]

Alright.

@Kleene:
I think you're overreating a bit by saying you won't play this game ever again. You have all the rights to be upset.
But try to understand why Jd- the way he did.
If I wasn't acting the way I did, probably I wouldn't been nominated as the Spy, and it would be obvious that the Spy is kamite & breva.
It must've been really hard for the Infoomants and the Spies to deal with the miyano's posts, so I give them credit for that.

I don't agree with ending the game three hours earlier. It should've been either cut one day earlier (by saying that there are few teams left, so only one day to catch the spy), either not at all.
But even so I don't think it would've changed the result.

Even if Kleene's team voted with kamite/breva instead of team #10, it wouldn't have made any difference at all.
Nobody would've follow her. Why?
No matter what she would have said, everyone else nominated me first, and Breva/kamite were their last suspects.
They wouldn't just change their vote without any hard evidence.
Sorry if you actually have any hard evidence. But I doubt that, since you included me in your suspect list.

Again, I'm not upset about the spy winning. They got Kain/Jellitto so early, which imo is a good reason for them to have won this game. I'd never have thought those two would have been the detectives ^^"

What I'm upset about, or better said unhappy about is the early phase change. Because that's unfair for most of the players that were playing.

And you can't say what would have happened in the next 3 hours. Because they didn't happen. It's likely that we would still have voted team 10, tho I preferred to go for team 7 (although I PMed yuri with team 10 because I panicked)
But it's also likely that people would have changed their vote. One of my suspicion was, that Jd made breva/Kamite in the "not suspects to be spy list" although they didn't vote Kain/Jellitto and that breva didn't want people to vote team 7 and still tried to sway kain/Jellitos vote to another team. You can see all that in that post where I made some red text too.
Would that have changed the vote`? We'll never know.


@jellito: Draw is the same as a tie.