DC and culture

[TheBlind]

Foreigners in Japan are allowed a hell of a lot of leeway - the Japanese realize you are too stupid to know the proper suffix and will allow you to get away with pretty much anything.  HINT: LASTNAME-san for anyone you aren't sure about.

Bad choice of words here. Culture and customs have no bearings on intelligence. Would you think it fair and proper for Countries in Europe and the United States to expect the Japanese immigrants to conform to their culture and customs?

A person's culture and customs are like a unique badge that you proudly wear, so expecting someone to imitate you're way of doing things while disregarding they're way of doing things isn't right in my book. Yes, each individual should strive to learn something from another culture, especially when visiting the country, but they can't be expected to conform and when they do not, see it as a lack of intelligence or commitment. That just plays into the lie, that Japan is xenophobic.

[Abs.]

TheBlind - Seriously?

[GinRei]

TheBlind - Seriously?

The Internet - serious business.

[TheBlind]

TheBlind - Seriously?

Maybe......depends what are we talking about?

The Internet - serious business.

Hey, after Die hard showed that the internet could be hacked( ) and used to shut down a civilized country, it has always been serious business.

[kaitoushinichi]

I should really get back to my homework... oh well...
(I'm just gonna start another thing about Japanese culture right here, if ya don't mind...)

Today, my friend and I were just talking more about Japanese stuffs, and one thing that came to our attention was the vending machines. First of all, there's always at least one vending machine within like, a 10 meter radius of you if you're in a public place. And then there are the crazy vending machines that sell things anywhere from perfumes, drinks, tobacco, keychains, brand-name bags, watches, ice-cream, fireworks, yaki-onigiri, stag beetles, and yakisoba... (I have actually seen all of these in various places in Japan...)

And my two favorites were the ones at the library near my grandma's place:
The first one just sells a bunch of snacks ranging from mints to CalorieMates. (My grandma was eating those the other day... ^_^")
And the second one is a custom drink machine, where you get to mix up whatever you want (The price changes according to what you put in.) If you want coffee, you can choose the cup size (of course,) and how much sugar, milk, and temperature. You can even mix together juices and choose the size and amount of ice cubes!

[mangaluva]

I've been reading this blog, http://1000thingsaboutjapan.blogspot.com/ and they mentioned "a vending machine dispensing warm bread in a can". Japan seems to be quite notorious for these vending machines. Does anybody know if there's a reason for this, or is it just "one of those things", like being able to deep-fry anything in Scotland?

[c-square]

Yes, each individual should strive to learn something from another culture, especially when visiting the country, but they can't be expected to conform

I'd have to disagree.  We often expect people to conform when they are in our country.  To give an example, lining up, or not cutting in line, is not a universal custom.  There are many places I've been where people don't line up, or it's normal for people to simply push their way into lines.  It's not necessarily rude or unexpected.  But when they visit a country where lining up is the norm, they are considered very rude and potentially unintelligent if they simply cut ahead.  The same could be said for expectations of dress codes and personal behaviours (such as picking one's nose).  There are things that are rude in one culture that are not in another, but in general, guests are expected to act according to the norms of the countries that they are visiting.

[c-square]

I've been reading this blog, http://1000thingsaboutjapan.blogspot.com/ and they mentioned "a vending machine dispensing warm bread in a can". Japan seems to be quite notorious for these vending machines. Does anybody know if there's a reason for this, or is it just "one of those things", like being able to deep-fry anything in Scotland?

All I can tell is that the Japanese love convenience.  (BTW, convenience stores in Japan RULE!  They have tonnes of great stuff, including delicious full meals.)

Of all the vending machines I saw in Japan, two stand out.  One was a vending machine for cut flowers.  I can't quite remember, but I think vase was included.  The other was for dirty magazines and underwear (yes, they sold underwear from the vending machine.  I don't know if it was previously used or not).  It had a shiny coating on the glass so during the day you couldn't see what was inside, but at night when the light behind the glass lit up, you could see the contents.  It was rather kimochi-warui (the Japanese word for icky) to see.

[scineram]

That just plays into the lie, that Japan is xenophobic.

Are they not? 

[TheBlind]

Yes, each individual should strive to learn something from another culture, especially when visiting the country, but they can't be expected to conform

I'd have to disagree.  We often expect people to conform when they are in our country.  To give an example, lining up, or not cutting in line, is not a universal custom.  There are many places I've been where people don't line up, or it's normal for people to simply push their way into lines.  It's not necessarily rude or unexpected.  But when they visit a country where lining up is the norm, they are considered very rude and potentially unintelligent if they simply cut ahead.  The same could be said for expectations of dress codes and personal behaviours (such as picking one's nose).  There are things that are rude in one culture that are not in another, but in general, guests are expected to act according to the norms of the countries that they are visiting.

You'll need better examples if you want me to understand why you disagree. Lining up is a universal custom of civilized society which is practiced in civilized settings, it has nothing to do with countries or culture. Lining up and anything involving it (taking numbers, be seated until called, have an appointment) are things done to prevent chaos in civilized settings where order must maintained or at least an image of order. So anyone cutting ahead of the line in this environment is seen as a lack of intelligence because that individual is ignoring an established behavior, practiced in many parts of the world. And most likely, that individual will be removed from the line by the people behind him or a third party. In uncivilized settings such as arcades, entering a train, a store sale, etc. lining up isn't expected and no one is seen lacking intelligence by not lining up(you might actually look strange by lining up in such settings).

So your example is apples to oranges as you are trying to compare a universal custom of civilized society that has appropriate places where it needs to be practiced to the customs of countries based on their culture that are always praticed.

As for the dress codes, you have to be more specific. Yes there are countries that enforce dress codes on its citizens(none in the "West" that I'm aware of) but asking someone to wear religious items when they are visiting is not the same as expecting someone to act a certain way when visiting(not singling out Japan as a few other countries practice this). All individuals should act civilized*(be surprised how many choose to ignore this) when visiting another country as to not embarrass your country of origin and yourself..but that's where I think it should stop.

*=respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening your mind to local practices, obeying rules/regulations, being polite, making an effort to understand at least the basics of the language, and etc.

[TheBlind]

That just plays into the lie, that Japan is xenophobic.

Are they not? 

Oh no, I'm not getting in the path of that storm, find another victim.

[mangaluva]

Yes, each individual should strive to learn something from another culture, especially when visiting the country, but they can't be expected to conform

I'd have to disagree.  We often expect people to conform when they are in our country.  To give an example, lining up, or not cutting in line, is not a universal custom.  There are many places I've been where people don't line up, or it's normal for people to simply push their way into lines.  It's not necessarily rude or unexpected.  But when they visit a country where lining up is the norm, they are considered very rude and potentially unintelligent if they simply cut ahead.  The same could be said for expectations of dress codes and personal behaviours (such as picking one's nose).  There are things that are rude in one culture that are not in another, but in general, guests are expected to act according to the norms of the countries that they are visiting.

You'll need better examples if you want me to understand why you disagree. Lining up is a universal custom of civilized society which is practiced in civilized settings, it has nothing to do with countries or culture. Lining up and anything involving it (taking numbers, be seated until called, have an appointment) are things done to prevent chaos in civilized settings where order must maintained or at least an image of order. So anyone cutting ahead of the line in this environment is seen as a lack of intelligence because that individual is ignoring an established behavior, practiced in many parts of the world. And most likely, that individual will be removed from the line by the people behind him or a third party. In uncivilized settings such as arcades, entering a train, a store sale, etc. lining up isn't expected and no one is seen lacking intelligence by not lining up(you might actually look strange by lining up in such settings).

So your example is apples to oranges as you are trying to compare a universal custom of civilized society that has appropriate places where it needs to be practiced to the customs of countries based on their culture that are always praticed.

As for the dress codes, you have to be more specific. Yes there are countries that enforce dress codes on its citizens(none in the "West" that I'm aware of) but asking someone to wear religious items when they are visiting is not the same as expecting someone to act a certain way when visiting(not singling out Japan as a few other countries practice this). All individuals should act civilized*(be surprised how many choose to ignore this) when visiting another country as to not embarrass your country of origin and yourself..but that's where I think it should stop.

*=respecting the culture, being understanding of customs, opening your mind to local practices, obeying rules/regulations, being polite, making an effort to understand at least the basics of the language, and etc.

Actually, the lining up example is quite valid because a lot of civilized countries don't do it. Ever tried queueing for a bus in Italy? Have fun.  and it would seem a universally sensible thing to be able to cross the street when the green man is up without dying, but I can't tell you how often I nearly got run over when I visited France. Actually, it's pretty much the same deal in Italy. If you step into the road they won't stop, just expect you to get out of the way yourself. There are a lot of little things like this that are taken for granted but you would be honestly shocked at how they're not "universal". Yes you should always act civilized when visiting another country, but your definition of civilized and theirs might be very different. To take another example, you might think that blowing your nose discreetly into a hanky is the polite thing to do, right? In Japan, it's seen as filthy, and is more accepted to spit or snort (which is technically the cleaner thing to do; the hanky thing is only really present in countries which have a history with the Black Plague, which could be spread by spitting). Take nothing for granted when it comes to foreign cultures; there's really no way of getting the hang of the little nuances of etiquette without living there.

[Callid]

Uhm...
Well, I'll try to give a valid example. But I can't decide which argument it supports^^

In Munich's escalators - unlike almost every German city (normally there is no order) - it's usual to "stand on the right, walk on the left". It's something very typical for Munich; 2 years ago, our class went to Berlin, and of course everyone did only use the right half of the escalator, building a looong line. While travelling down a Berliner passed by and said (well, in German of course^^): "You are from Munich, aren't you?".

Therefore, if someone is standing on the left side of the escalator in Munich, he is almost sure not to be a Münchner (there is no English term, so I'm using the German :-P) - the only other possibility is someone not caring about this "rule", but that almost only happens among youths.
However, normally this behaviour is accepted with a silent sigh (although everyone is angered), only someone who's in a hurry might shout or push his way through.

Well, which side am I arguing for now?

[mangaluva]

Uhm...
Well, I'll try to give a valid example. But I can't decide which argument it supports^^

In Munich's escalators - unlike almost every German city (normally there is no order) - it's usual to "stand on the right, walk on the left". It's something very typical for Munich; 2 years ago, our class went to Berlin, and of course everyone did only use the right half of the escalator, building a looong line. While travelling down a Berliner passed by and said (well, in German of course^^): "You are from Munich, aren't you?".

Therefore, if someone is standing on the left side of the escalator in Munich, he is almost sure not to be a Münchner (there is no English term, so I'm using the German :-P) - the only other possibility is someone not caring about this "rule", but that almost only happens among youths.
However, normally this behaviour is accepted with a silent sigh (although everyone is angered), only someone who's in a hurry might shout or push his way through.

Well, which side am I arguing for now?

dunno about sides XD speaking of which, have you ever gotten into that situation where you walk into someone, then step aside and they step the same way? This is most common among people of different nationalities, because apparently what side of the sidewalk you tend to walk on is connected to what side of the road you drive on. I was born in America and spent several formative years there, so i'm inclined to walk on the right, which means i'm always running into people walking on the left XD

[Abs.]

dunno about sides XD speaking of which, have you ever gotten into that situation where you walk into someone, then step aside and they step the same way? This is most common among people of different nationalities, because apparently what side of the sidewalk you tend to walk on is connected to what side of the road you drive on. I was born in America and spent several formative years there, so i'm inclined to walk on the right, which means i'm always running into people walking on the left XD

It's funny, because sometimes when it's obvious that you're a foreigner, the local will adjust HIS/HER sidestep to compensate for where he/she thinks you will sidestep...  No win situation all around.