[Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

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spn
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[Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by spn »

At first: Hello community. :)

I'm pretty certain I'm by far not the first one who has this theory, but I thought about mentioning and explaining my ideas about it. I'd really like to read your opinions and concerns about it. You can also tell me about possible grammatical mistakes, which will probably exist, because English isn't my native language. XD
Oh and always consider this theory work in progress.

My theory is the following:

Atsushi Miyano - Boss of the Black Organization? Some thoughts about it:

My favourite theory about the identity of the ominous boss of the Organization of the men (and women ^^) in black from Detective Conan (or Case Closed for some fellows).

Table of contents:
  • Atsushi Miyano as Anokata - the theory
  • Why Elena Miyano could be Vermouth
  • Problems about these theories
Atsushi Miyano as Anokata - the theory:

I really like this idea more and more since I've drawn Atsushi Miyano - Shiho's aka Ai Haibara's father - in my personal roster for Anokata suspects - especially when one considers the theory about Vermouth being Elena Miyano. As far as I know, no specific age dates have been given for the Miyanos (at least there were none mentioned for Atsushi, Elena and Shiho, although I think that the age of 18 years for Shiho is true) and we don't know specific dates for some of the important events, just rough information (the work at APTX, the accident of the parents, etc.)
Below you can find some ideas that could prove the theory - I think it can't completely be ruled out.

(Click on the pictures for a larger view.)

It is suspiciously open, when and in which way exactly Ai's/Shiho's parents died - it was just said that it has been an "accident". The possibility is high that there's more about it than it seems and that Shiho's parents are indeed still alive. The only other hint could be the statement by Souhei Dejima that the Miyanos have disappeared around 20 years ago.

I've found no direct evidence that the boss should have appeared in person - but an interview with Gosho in which he claimed that the boss appeared in some form, most probably by name in the Manga series - and this (by the time the interview happened) some time before File 551 and most likely (judging by his faux pas with the documents, which content could reveal the identity of Anokata if studied extensively) somewhere in the Vermouth Arc. Atsushi Miyano was just mentioned by name (in contrary to his wife, who was also pictured) and this in that specific Story arc previous to File 551.

Evidence partly from the Anime (could be non-canon): According to this combined theory, Atsushi Miyano and Sharon's mysterious husband should be the same person - and, at least in the Anime, if one wants to count it, both are shown in visual form, just seen from behind and in flashbacks and have a remarkably similar appearance. In the Manga, only Sharon's husband appears, seen from a similar position. Maybe that's the reason only Elena was shown? Maybe the similarities between Sharon's husband and Atsushi could have been too obvious to the reader?

I've read a pretty interesting fan theory some time ago, that the agents of the FBI have a counterpart in the Black Organization that also resembles them physically (Shuuichi/Gin, Andre Camel/Vodka, Jodie/Vermouth), just James Black - who is the boss of the FBI agents after all - has none. If one considers that his counterpart should be the boss of the Organization, who should also look like him in some way or another like the other ones, it reminds of Atsushi Miyano/Sharon's husband again, who resemble one another alone and also have some similarities with James from behind, for example the similar hair style, facial structure (which indicates a similar age, at least on the outside) and the glasses.

Perhaps the "Black" in his name isn't a proof for James (which would also be too obvious, I think), but a hint to his counterpart - the boss of the Organization?

As a renowned scientist (at least in past times), Atsushi should have enough money in his disposal to mount such an organization. In his deed as a member of the scientific community he could also have very well founded the scientific branches (biochemistry and computer technology) of the Organization.

Since Shinichi Kudo is called the "The Heisei Holmes", his biggest antagonist could also be the "Heisei Professor Moriarty" - a highly capable but mad scientist, whose theories weren't graspable by his colleagues, so he was shunned - just like Professor Atsushi Miyano, who was deemed a "Mad Scientist". The original Professor Moriarty from the Sherlock Holmes novels was a leader of his own Mafia-like organization as well, which was "responsible for a half of the crimes in London" and of "almost everything which hasn't been solved".

One should also note the explanation about Ai's mother, who "didn't talk much and acted mysterious", which doesn't has to be very important, but reminds of Vermouth's behavior and quotes ("A secret makes a woman woman"). (More about this in the later following second part of the theory.)

It would explain why the revelation of his identity would shock Ai/Shiho.

On at least one occasion Ai seemed to know more than she pretends to - she explains that if the police would take measures against the Organization, they could end up "capturing some unbelievable characters". Conan asks her sternly if she knows who the boss is, to which she just replied with a an ambiguous look and the counterquestion "How would I know?". If she was privy about some secrets of the Organization all the time or has a strong assumption about something, the declaration about "unbelivable" could very well be a hint to Atsushi - after all he's deemed dead. Although it seems to contradict the previous point, we also don't know what information and how much exactly Ai got from the tapes of her mother.

A small but interesting detail that could also speak for Atsushi is the labeling of the APTX 4869 itself. Since Atsushi was working on it, the probability is high that it was labeled and/or categorized by him. As some may remember from the Manga, the number "4869" stands for "Sherlock" in Japanese, at least phonetically. This reminds of the preference of the Organization (and in extension, probably Anokata's) for terms related to or originating from older novels associated with the genre of mystery, like some of the mission codes, the password "Sherringford" used for the APTX data and the use of the word "Silver Bullet".

Furthermore, for some time, there was a rumor about the boss belonging to Conan's "close aquaintances" or alternatively having some connections to it. Regardless of whether true or not, there are at least one or two connections - over Prof. Hiroshi Agasa, who knew Atsushi, let alone that he's the father of a main character.

Since DC wasn't intended to run that long in the beginning, some people theorize that Anokata was hinted at almost from the start. About that:
Akemi Miyano's appearance as Masami Hirota happened very early (Volume 2) and her sister, Shiho, was already mentioned there, who is held captive by the Organization. Because of this, there is a reference to the family of the Miyanos almost from the beginning, since the membership of both of the sisters could also imply some kind of involvement by their parents from the start, which was maybe just postponed to a later part of the storyline as soon as the popularity and lenght of the series increased. Additionally, Gosho has based the structure of the Org. on the Mafia, which often contains family ties (most of the time organized patriarchal = Atsushi?) - whereas the kinship doesn't have to be the factor that decides about the hierarchy.

I also found this pretty interesting video by kasualvgm at YouTube, which could further consolidate the theory and additionally offers a probable solution for the problem of the real name of the Organization directing to Atsushi, which also fits in the pattern of the Organization/Anokata referring to literary themes.

Especially interesting is the reference to the phrase "We are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time" - like Dr. Frankenstein did, who was also called a "mad scientist". This again works well with the mystery- and horror themes from written fiction and the mythological references of the Organization (the Silver Bullet, quoting Heiji: "Every horror fan should now that the Silver Bullet is the one and only weapon which is capable of killing a werewolf..."); in addition the horror-themed roller coaster used by Gin and Vodka in their debut, the Halloween party on the ship and the use of crows, probably as a symbol of death, etc.)


Why Elena Miyano could be Vermouth:

Assuming that Atsushi Miyano is the boss of the Black Organization, the meaning of the quote "Vermouth is the favourite of Anokata" would be clear - besides the precious mystery of her eternal youth, she is his own wife.

Even without the brilliant disguising abilities of Vermouth - Elena and her have some striking similarities. It's especially remarkable in the chapters in which the characters talked about Elena for the first time and in which Vermouth also appears with sunglasses and a high collar:

There is another parallelism of this kind in the third chapter of Volume 42 - after Ai listened to more tapes recorded by her mother, she reveals to her who she "really is", while Ai looks pretty surprised. It isn't shown to the reader what she told to her, but directly after that moment follows another flashback to Jodie's childhood, in which she asks Vermouth who she is. At the end of the chapter Ai again thinks about her mother, directly followed by another scene with Vermouth (at the airport).

Remarkably enough, Elena uses similar pet names for Shiho like Vermouth did ("Bye bye, honey...", "Good night, baby...").

Elena is a British person and therefore an anglophone person - so it could be more or less easily possible for her to pretend to be a US American ála Vermouth, especially considering the latters acting skills. This could also further explain the American ties of the Organization.

Gosho Aoyama is genereally known as a fan of aptronyms. An idea: Elena is the italian and spanish variant of the greek name Helena. Vermouth/Vermut is an italian wine originating from Turin. According to Homer, "Elena" can, among other things, also mean "the destructive", which could relate Vermouth's counter-productive actions against the Organization or her wish about the destruction of it.

Elena Miyano was known as "Hell Angel". Vermouth is also referring to such Christian-influenced statements, like her description of Ran as "Angel", because "there is an angel for me, too". Also, Vermouth's quote starting with "We can be both of God and the Devil" fits into this pattern of Heaven and Hell.


Problems about this theories:

Why is Vermouth - if she really should be Elena - talking about Shiho's parents in such a derogative way and in third person? A kind of self-hate could be possible, another possibility could be, that she is trying to distract from herself (and her real identity).

Why should Atsushi and Elena kill their own daughter Akemi and now target her youngest child Shiho? And if Akemi's death was handled arbitrary by Gin, because he didn't knew the circumstances of the family - why haven't there been any repressive matters for him or why haven't they told him beforehand?
A potential explanation could be, that the Miyano parents simply doesn't love their daughters or just see them as expedient for their plans (Akemi because of her relationship with Shuuichi and the attempt to free her sister from the clutches of the Organization, Shiho because of her betrayal and subsequent escape). It shouldn't be ruled out in the case of Atsushi, but Elena was - as far as we know - seemingly portrayed as a caring mother. On the other hand, we don't know all of the tapes and just segments from the ones we DO know. Furthermore, the kinship of members in a Mafia-like organization doesn't necessarily decides which rank one obtains, but loyality and the like - attributes probably forfeited by the two sisters.

Last but not least it's also pretty illogical on the part of the Organization to describe Shiho as an "indispensable member" (see panel of Gin talking to Akemi above), although they are out to hunt and kill her now. Except for her betrayal - what made her dispensable all of a sudden?


Thanks for reading! ^^

To be continued... eventually. XD
(There are some logs with a friend including further thoughts about this topic I could later on add in compressed form.)
Last edited by spn on September 8th, 2012, 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Jason_french »

One word ; speechless !  :o
It makes a lot of sense to me !
I loved reading your theory, you raised pretty good arguments (in particular Vermouth talking about how no angel has ever smiled upon her, which could be related to Elena's code name "Hell Angel").
Last edited by Jason_french on April 22nd, 2012, 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Aokochan »

Jason_french wrote: One word ; speechless !  :o
^This. :o

Your theory is really good!
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by M.Holmes »

One of the many plausible theories out there, but also one that I hope is incorrect (especially the Vermouth part). I'm hoping for something much more complex and mindblowing for the big reveal.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by spn »

Thanks to all three you! ^^
Jason_french wrote:I loved reading your theory, you raised pretty good arguments (in particular Vermouth talking about how no angel has ever smiled upon her, which could be related to Elena's code name "Hell Angel").
This connection came to my mind pretty quickly, because Christian allusions are more than rare in Detective Conan and then, suddenly, there are both of these striking similar references by Vermouth and Elena.
Aokochan wrote:Your theory is really good!
Thanks again. ^^
M.Holmes wrote:but also one that I hope is incorrect (especially the Vermouth part). I'm hoping for something much more complex and mindblowing for the big reveal.
In my opinion, almost no reveal could be that mindblowing and suprising anymore, because the fans have considered almost every character as a possible Anokata suspect so far, so there will always be at least some people who will think that the reveal of the real identity hasn't been that great. The only exception could be a completely new character as the boss, but I believe there are too many hints against this by now.
Oh well, I trust Gosho that he will make the reveal a thrilling one, no matter which character will be unmasked as the boss (or the explanation of what's up with Vermouth).  :)
Last edited by spn on April 23rd, 2012, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

spn wrote: Last but not least it's also pretty illogical on the part of the Organization to describe Shiho as an "indispensable member" (see panel of Gin talking to Akemi above), although they are out to hunt and kill her now. Except for her betrayal - what made her dispensable all of a sudden?
When Gin said Shiho was indispensable, Akemi was not quite dead yet, so Shiho hadn't started her boycott. Shiho was very upset at the murder of her sister, so she began boycotting the project. Akemi was Shiho's last living family member (that we know about) and Shiho was not close with other people, so I doubt the Org had anyone they could threaten to keep Shiho working. Also, Shiho might attempt to sabotage the project, and could do so in way that would take a long time for others to figure out how to fix given her knowledge. Finally, Shiho is connected with Akai through Akemi and knew he betrayed, so the Org could worry she might try to contact him and sell them out to him. The fact they locked her up instead of killing her right away likely meant her case wasn't absolutely clear cut because she was that important.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by S.G.T. »

spn wrote:
Why Elena Miyano could be Vermouth:
Assuming that Atsushi Miyano is the boss of the Black Organization, the meaning of the quote "Vermouth is the favourite of Anokata" would be clear - besides the precious mystery of her eternal youth, she is his own wife.

Isnt't Elena to old to be Vermouth? ???
The real question is:
If the theory Elena=Vermouth is based on the idea of "mysterious eternal youth" what are the goals of BO?
Because if Elena allready regained somehow eternal youth the aims that the BO have, seems to be already accomplished, of course only if we assume that the main interest is eternal youth and not something "banal" as world domination.    :)
I am really keen to know what you all think.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Partsu »

This is great!

Just before I read this I reread Chekhov's theories...and they sort of mingled together...
now my mind is so confused that I think I'll go to sleep...maybe I'll figure out something...
I wonder what it'd be like if this were to be fused with Cekhov's theor(y/ries)...
gah...my head hurts thinking about it...I'm too stupid for this kind of thinking...
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by M.Holmes »

Vermouth is one of the more interesting antagonists because quite a few of her actions are seemingly inexplicable and contradictory from our point of view. I believe a more reasonable theory would be that Vermouth was tricked or experimented on by Shiho's parents, thereby explaining her aging discrepancies, her animosity toward the Miyano's, and her apparent illogical/sympathetic actions toward Conan/Ai who were victimized in a similar manner by what could very well be the same drug (or some prototypical variant) that was used on her.

As far as Anokata is concerned, it's hard to present a case about his (her?) identity that could be considered anything more than a shot in the dark considering how scarce and ostensibly insignificant the information that is supplied to us regarding his (her?) identity. My guess is given Gosho's penchant for naming, I'm thinking that Kogoro (or his relatives) will be involved somehow since Mouri so closely resembles the name of Holmes' greatest enemy. Then again, that being a red herring is equally likely - so yeah, shot in the dark.

However, on the bright side and considering how many fans of the series there are, somebody out there has to have the right theory! Only time will tell.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by casualvgm »

Victor Frankenstein = atsushi [the Creator]    monster =  Vermouth [creation or victim]
                              l              l                                                  l                          l
                (mad scientist)      l                            (Fallen Angels, Hell Angel )          l
                              l            l                                                    l                            l
                prometheus  ã…¡ã…¡'                                elena  =  lucifer =  venus ã…¡ã…¡'     

black org real name = 'The Modern Prometheus'
(Frankenstein: Or The Modern Prometheus -> novel Frankenstein is derived from Detective Conan org.)
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

I looked at the Frankenstein theory, but I never saw anything compelling about it. You can find a famous historical novel and shape your theory to fit its plot without too much difficulty. It would be a different deal if there were some Frankenstein name puns or something like that.

I'm not in the Vermouth = Elena camp btw because there are too many inconsistencies between the two people for my liking. We don't know enough to guarantee Elena and Vermouth are not the same person, but there are enough differences in the little we do know that I think it won't develop that way.
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by S.Vineyard »

It also depends which "Frankenstein".

The Novel showed him as a more tragic character, who is searching fro the Elixir of Life, but later actually wants to create life himself.

The "Mad Scientist" version is actually more a product of the Universal and the Hammer movies. Specially the later portrait the Doctor a more vile person and actually, despite his fine manners and heritage (he is a Baron in the hammer movies) as a uncultivated and actually babaric person. ("Monster from Hell" showed him not caring for mathematics and actually being tone death and not able not appreachiate music)
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by fra90snake »

and what about Itakura? What is that program that Vermouth asked him? This to me is the greatest mystery
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by dcfan01 »

Wow, you made some pretty good points there.. and more importantly, the story seems to fit together..
I have the following doubts though:

There are some things that go against the Elena = Vermouth theory:

1-During the time that Atsushi, Elena and Akemi visited Japan 20 years ago, Sharon Vineyard should be learning disguise techniques with Yukiko, acting in movies and killing Jodie's father. (I know this is not conclusive, since in a year you can go back and forth from NY to Tokio countless times, but you would need an excuse, especially since Yukiko is Japanese and would be naturally interested..)
What I really mean to say is that at this point, the life of Sharon seems to be centered in the US, and between her acting carreer and her 2nd life as vermouth, I don't think she had the time to have a 3rd life as a scientist, given that she also is akemi's mother, and assists to disguising classes.. oh and she is just about to get pregnant..
But even if she could somehow manage, she would have no reason to go to Japan with Atsushi..
Anyway, this is the most subjective point so it doesn't need to be proven wrong..

2-When Akai shot Vermouth, we learned that this is her real face, without disguise.. Bourbon knew both of them (Vermouth and Elena) and he refers to them as different people.

3-Even if Atsushi and Elena didn't love their daughters, I don't think they would try to kill them..
Even if you think of them as mad scientists, they would rather use them for some weird experiment than kill them and waste a possible test subject.

4-Also what Vermouth said to Shijo: "If you want to blame someone, blame your parents who took over this foolish research." If Vermouth was Elena, this would mean: "Don't blame me, blame me!"
This also means that Vermouth was there before Atsushi and Elena joined..

About anokata:
There is not much said about him, so almost everyone can be suspected..

1-The organization started 50 years ago, and Atsushi moved out of his parents house 30 years ago

2-30 years ago, he said to his friend that he found someone to sponsor his theory, and was moving to join a large research facility.. Conan and Haibara thought this was the BO. (5 years after that, Akemi was born)
There was some kind of organization that already existed, before Atsushi joined..
this idea can be verified by vermouth's phrase:"If you [Shiho] want to blame someone, blame your parents who took over this foolish research."

3-If Anokata was a scientist, it would be expected for him to review the results of the different investigations they do, and among them, especially the one that his daughter is doing. He would know the possible side effects of APTX, and figure that Shijo might be in elementary school..

If we think about personality:
4-Anokata is very careful. Vermouth says, “The boss is always careful to the extreme. He’s the type to ruin the plan by overthinking it.”
He wouldn't expose his <crazy> ideas to the scientific community and let himself be called a "mad scientist"..

5-Anokata has won the respect of cold-blooded murderers, as well as very intelligent people, such as bourbon..
On the other side, as said before, Atshushi couldn't even get some support from a group of plain scientists. (not that i have anything against them)

Finally, Pisco said that both of them died in an accident.. if one of them BECAME Anokata, I can understand why he would fake his death, but then, the other wouldn't need to..
In fact, for the sake of the investigation (which started all this mess) it would be convenient for one of them to remain alive and in charge..
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Re: [Theory] My thoughts about Anokata and Vermouth

Post by Akai Shuuichi »

Just a little something opposing Anokata=Atsuchi. In the bell train arc, when Bourbon confronted Ai, who at that moment was almost certainly dead, he told her that he met her parents before they die, that means Bourbon knows Atsushi. Taking into consideration that Bourbon knows Anokata I can't find a reason why Bourbon would lie to someone whose about to die anyways. If Atsushi was Anokata, keeping in mind Bourbon knows both, he wouldn't have told her that her parents actually died.
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