Anokata theory: The boss may be...

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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by ShinRan36 »

Hey guys! Im not watching Detective Conan for like one year now. Dont tell me that you still dont know who the boss is? :S damn! Do we know who Bourbon is? Or is this still a secret, too?
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by unclesporkums »

Spoiler:
No, we don't know who either is yet. However, the general consensus is that a new detective character in the manga named Toru Amuro is both Bourbon and Scar Akai. There might also be a turning point in the Bourbon arc in the coming chapters of the manga.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by kuro_shiro »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Wait a minute. Now you are saying "The boss is said to be cautious, but despite that, he gave his permission and left the decision to Gin." You were just arguing Gin in the boss. Is the boss a split personality in Gin's head or something now?

i mean anokata(gin on phone ) left judgement to gin(gin in car).as gin could give orders more swiftly through mouth than mail.


Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
kuro_shiro wrote: beside if anokata and sherry had relations then sherry would know the identity and face  of anokata.  
Only if Gin is anokata...
sherry would atleast know the face irrespective of person.we are talking of relations not rape.


Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: That rebuttal about freedoms isn't relevant to the point I made. If you go by the popular theory that SA=B and Vermouth helped with the disguise, when Gin and Vermouth had a chat in 704, Gin asked if Vermouth got permission from the boss [for the plan to disguise Bourbon as Akai]. Vermouth gave the affirmative. If Gin was the boss, he would already know about the plan in advance, and thus wouldn't have shown up to "re-kill" Scar Akai.
The freedom thing brings up another point: if Gin was the boss, why would he put up with agents running around keeping secrets as much as they do? We know that Gin hates it. Can't he request more discipline for all of his agents like anokata did for Vermouth? If Gin was the boss, why would he even let someone like Bourbon codename if he doesn't like him?
i go by the theory that SA=B and bourbon did the getup himself not by help of vermouth.

even if gin knew the plan in advance ,he would still show up unless he tells others that scar akai is bourbon and anokata has told him that instead of refusing to give permisson without exlanatiion.

if gin was to keep his identity as anokata secret ,he would have to know that bourbon didn't tell gin about his plans but to anokata.

and if anokata knew of bourbon's plan ,he would not have given them permission.(irrespective of who is anokata) .

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: The decision to kill Shinichi was an obvious on-the-spot judgement.
it is exactly of these type of situations where it is required by boss to be on the spot instead of hiding in cave or something.

but i kinda like the situation chekhov posted.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Akai frequently comes to correct conclusions, and even if he isn't high ranking, he can watch the chain of orders dished out, observe his immediate superiors' circumstances, and deduce there must be someone on top who must know more that his superiors and is coordinating them. We also know he got close to Shiho through Akemi and Shiho is certainly in the know about many high level things. I'm certainly not claiming that Akai knows lots of inner secrets, but if you put someone with about Shinichi's intelligence and deduction in an Organization for three years nearby one of their top ranked scientists, he'll probably make some pretty good guesses about the management.
he could get info but it is said that he hadn't met gin before .he has staked  out in first meeting and gin didn't come.
rest of bo believed that anokata and gin are different persons .so akai naturally would believe it.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

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*knows that it's Conan and that he's tracking them down to make sure they're doing a good job* :-X
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by kuro_shiro »

sstimson wrote: To go back to my idea, of Camel and Akai seeing the Boss.

    If you are the Boss of the BO. First you check out your new employee very careful and find out all you can about them. But at some time unknown to them, you will want to see them face to face. What better way then to be somewhere you are not suppose to be. A final test. I think it funny, that it is possible that camel might have ordered away the very person that Akai might have been about to met.
    As for it being Gin, well it seem Akai knows Gin very well, so it seem to me they have met, and in that case such a meting is meaningless. Gin for sure knows Akai.
    The real question remains. Who was Akai going to met that day. I do not think it was Gin, because then he could show the FBI a photo of Gin and say get this man when he shows up, and as we already know Gin, Akai saying he was going to met Gin. would not be a Big deal. No, it says he was going to met an executive member, and this person was a leader. Why did it not say he was going to met Gin? Why the mystery?
the thing is akai didn't knew about gin. he only knew that he was to meet an executive member called gin. at the time of stakeout in file599

the information about gin  etc was sent to akai by akemi miyano in an email just one day before her bank robbery mission
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by sstimson »

I disagree. He know what Gin look like. Likewise Gin. They met. And the way Gin talks about Akai makes it personal. A simple photo would not be at that level. No something happened between them. Also Akai did have a code name. I still sure that meeting was for the Boss.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by leokiko »

sstimson wrote: I disagree. He know what Gin look like. Likewise Gin. They met. And the way Gin talks about Akai makes it personal. A simple photo would not be at that level. No something happened between them.
This^

Also, to make that plan to fake Akai's death (assuming Chekhov's theory is correct) Akai would have to know Gin's personality. To manipulate him.
kuro_shiro wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: That rebuttal about freedoms isn't relevant to the point I made. If you go by the popular theory that SA=B and Vermouth helped with the disguise, when Gin and Vermouth had a chat in 704, Gin asked if Vermouth got permission from the boss [for the plan to disguise Bourbon as Akai]. Vermouth gave the affirmative. If Gin was the boss, he would already know about the plan in advance, and thus wouldn't have shown up to "re-kill" Scar Akai.
The freedom thing brings up another point: if Gin was the boss, why would he put up with agents running around keeping secrets as much as they do? We know that Gin hates it. Can't he request more discipline for all of his agents like anokata did for Vermouth? If Gin was the boss, why would he even let someone like Bourbon codename if he doesn't like him?
i go by the theory that SA=B and bourbon did the getup himself not by help of vermouth.

even if gin knew the plan in advance ,he would still show up unless he tells others that scar akai is bourbon and anokata has told him that instead of refusing to give permisson without exlanatiion.

if gin was to keep his identity as anokata secret ,he would have to know that bourbon didn't tell gin about his plans but to anokata.

and if anokata knew of bourbon's plan ,he would not have given them permission.(irrespective of who is anokata) .




Why did Gin kept his handgun at Kir's head then? And If he knew all that in advance, he wouldn't even suspect her.

Also, why mobilize Korn/Chianti to snipe SA? Since he knew It was clearly a waste of time.
Last edited by leokiko on December 5th, 2011, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kuro_shiro
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by kuro_shiro »

sstimson wrote: I disagree. He know what Gin look like. Likewise Gin. They met. And the way Gin talks about Akai makes it personal. A simple photo would not be at that level. No something happened between them. Also Akai did have a code name. I still sure that meeting was for the Boss.
akai knows what gin look like isn't much conclusive.
first he could have deudced that the guy holding the bug is gin not the guy who was doing nothing  exept chatting (vodka).since korn was snniping and rest were females. it is to deduce who is gin if he didn't knew it beforehand.

read file 599 again. there it is clearly said that akai was called to meet gin
http://www.mangareader.net/139-8646-9/d ... r-599.html




leokiko wrote:
Also, to make that plan to fake Akai's death (assuming Chekhov's theory is correct) Akai would have to know Gin's personality. To manipulate him.
if gin wass near ,he could have sent an email saying he spotted gin and realised it was a trap.
if gin was far away he could have followed with his plan.

given the highly smart nature of gin, he would have tried to be farther from kir so to make sure either akai is dead or kir is traitor.

i don't know how gin's personality matter in this case  .


leokiko wrote: Why did Gin kept his handgun at Kir's head then? And If he knew all that in advance, he wouldn't even suspect her.

Also, why mobilize Korn/Chianti to snipe SA? Since he knew It was clearly a waste of time.
it is clearly a waste if gin knew about bourbon's plan beforehand
and that argument proves that gin didn't knew about it.

first i think bourbon was doing it without the knowledge of vermouth and anokata(reasons are stated below) i wrote it to make that scenario impossible.


anokata gave the permission of snipping
here it does not matter who is anokata. if anokata knew that scar akai is bourbon ,he would not have given permission.

Vermouth said nothing to gin about bourbon
if vermouth has helped bourbon and after snipping is done , police found a guy(who closely resembles bourbon ) with mask of akai  . BO would realise vermouth's hand in it. to avoid such scenario ,she would have told gin the whole truth.
but that din't happen either

from here i  concluded that bourbon was working without telling his plan to anokata , vermouth and certainly to gin.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by sstimson »

Be that as it may, you are forgetting one major important point.

Your turn to view panels
Spoiler:
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Spoiler:
Image
My point is where ever it is is very personal. It does not get that personal between two people who were going to met. NO they must have met and had bad blood between them.

Notice this : first panel : Gin unbelief that he is being shot at by Akai. Note, he knows who is shooting at him.
Second Panel: Akai comment, and again he clearly knows who is Gin and again note him comment. It is not something like: " so this is Gin" It is more like "we met again."

Akai HAD a BO  code name, he earned it while working UNDER Gin. You surely do not believe that the BO just gives code names to any one like candy at Halloween, right?
He earned that name, and that means he KNEW gin face to face. If necessary,  I can prove Gin is a hand on guy and does not work with anyone unless he is face to face.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by leokiko »

Vermouth did say Anotaka is an extremely cautelous person. So Bourbon asked for permission for executing such plan and Anotaka accepted. She did tell Gin about Bourbon's plan. It was at the time he asked Vermouth if she had asked for the boss permission.

And no one said Anotaka gave the permission for sniping. It's not like Gin has to report to him every time he makes a move. Killing Akai was already an decision made by Anotaka eariler on, (stating that Akai was their Silver Bullet is suggestive enough) so Gin didn't have to contact him.

Also, like sstimson said, Akai KNEW Gin. He referred to him as his old enemy, and Gin hates him a lot, suggesting something happened between them in the past (most likely while Akai was still referred to by his codename Rye).

Also, on the stakeout, that was a plan to CAPTURE an executive member, hence Akai already knew who this person was. And they never said it was Gin.(I might be wrong here though, not 100% sure).
Last edited by leokiko on December 4th, 2011, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

kuro_shiro wrote: i mean anokata(gin on phone ) left judgement to gin(gin in car).as gin could give orders more swiftly through mouth than mail.
This argument does not make sense to me. Can you explain it more clearly?
kuro_shiro wrote: sherry would atleast know the face irrespective of person.we are talking of relations not rape.
Who said anything about rape?
kuro_shiro wrote:
Spoiler:
he could get info but it is said that he hadn't met gin before .he has staked out in first meeting and gin didn't come.
rest of bo believed that anokata and gin are different persons .so akai naturally would believe it.
We don’t know that Akai has not met Gin before, but we do know Akai knows who Gin is. (see below) Akai and Gin probably did not work directly together or have any extended contact considering the protocol leading up to the meeting with Gin, but that doesn’t imply they haven’t encountered each other at some point while they were both in the Org.
kuro_shiro wrote: the thing is akai didn't knew about gin. he only knew that he was to meet an executive member called gin. at the time of stakeout in file599
While I do believe that Akai and Gin could not have been close because Akai was just promoted to be under Gin before getting kicked, Akai knew who Gin was. One way we know is because Akai didn’t pay attention to the old man who walked into the meeting place. If Akai had no idea who Gin was, he would have tried interacting with the old man. Also, Akai couldn't have made the "koibito" joke if he didn't know who Gin was. The joke was that Akai nicknamed Gin "koibito" (like how Vermouth was rotten apple) and told James that he was going to make "koibito" cry tears of blood for "leaving him" (dumping him from the Org by never showing up at the meeting). When Akai sniped Gin and grazed his cheek (thus making Gin cry the foreshadowed tears of blood), Akai mentioned Gin being his “koibito” which means Akai obviously knew who Gin was. There is further proof when Akai identified Gin's car at Raiha pass, strongly implying he knew who was in it.
kuro_shiro wrote: the information about gin etc was sent to akai by akemi miyano in an email just one day before her bank robbery mission
This is completely wrong. Akemi's email was about asking Akai if he would be her real boyfriend if she managed to leave the organization "after this" (possibly the robbery, meaning Akemi did keep in contact with Akai), and then there was a mysterious PS. 599 pg 12
sstimson wrote: Also Akai did have a code name. I still sure that meeting was for the Boss.
The meeting was with Gin, not the boss.
kuro_shiro wrote: i don't know how gin's personality matter in this case .
It does.
kuro_shiro wrote:
Spoiler:
even if gin knew the plan in advance ,he would still show up unless he tells others that scar akai is bourbon and anokata has told him that instead of refusing to give permisson without exlanatiion.
if gin was to keep his identity as anokata secret ,he would have to know that bourbon didn't tell gin about his plans but to anokata.
and if anokata knew of bourbon's plan ,he would not have given them permission.(irrespective of who is anokata).
I see where you are trying to go with this, but now at the end you are implying that anokata wouldn’t have given Bourbon permission to try to find Akai. This would seem to contradict with Amuro’s continued mission as Kogoro’s apprentice and with Vermouth saying that the boss is cautious (and thus wants to make sure Akai is really dead and Kir is not a traitor) if you theorize this way. Why would Gin have not called Bourbon off yet if Gin is the boss? In any case the clash arc will probably make it clearer who knew what, which should clear up the Gin and boss issue.
kuro_shiro wrote:
leokiko wrote:
Spoiler:
Why did Gin kept his handgun at Kir's head then? And If he knew all that in advance, he wouldn't even suspect her.

Also, why mobilize Korn/Chianti to snipe SA? Since he knew It was clearly a waste of time.
Spoiler:
it is clearly a waste if gin knew about bourbon's plan beforehand
and that argument proves that gin didn't knew about it.

first i think bourbon was doing it without the knowledge of vermouth and anokata(reasons are stated below) i wrote it to make that scenario impossible.


anokata gave the permission of snipping
here it does not matter who is anokata. if anokata knew that scar akai is bourbon ,he would not have given permission.

Vermouth said nothing to gin about bourbon
if vermouth has helped bourbon and after snipping is done , police found a guy(who closely resembles bourbon ) with mask of akai . BO would realise vermouth's hand in it. to avoid such scenario ,she would have told gin the whole truth.
but that din't happen either

from here i concluded that bourbon was working without telling his plan to anokata , vermouth and certainly to gin.
With regards to the first thing, Leokiko answered that Akai was already ordered to die. Gin doesn’t need orders to kill him again, and given that the assassination is time sensitive, (Scar Akai could disappear) Gin doesn’t have time to wait if the boss doesn’t get back to him soon. Gin went ahead and set up as fast as possible to take out “Akai” without asking the boss because he assumed he was clear to do so.

With regards to the second point, Vermouth knows something none of the other BO members do: Conan is working with the FBI. Therefore, even after seeing Jodie’s reaction to the news of Akai’s death, she may still wonder if Conan was involved somewhere. On the flipside, we have Bourbon who will not think Akai is dead unless Bourbon killed Akai himself. Although Vermouth cannot voice her suspicion about Conan to the rest of the BO, she can help Bourbon who wants to investigate for his own reasons, and in turn satisfy her own possible lingering doubt. She has already been recalled by the boss, so her freedom to investigate on her own whim is likely limited.
Vermouth is secretive to the point where the secrets she keeps are actively harmful to the BO (Shinichi is alive). Gin mentioned that Bourbon is secretive like Vermouth. Finally, Vermouth and Bourbon also have to keep their plan secret from Kir in case she really is a traitor, lest she tip off the real Akai. Therefore, keeping the plan between themselves after getting the boss’s permission to do it makes the most sense and meshes with their personalities.
sstimson wrote: Akai HAD a BO code name, he earned it while working UNDER Gin.
This is wrong. Akai had not been working under Gin when he received his codename. Akai received his codename and then was called to work under Gin, and when they were supposed to meet (and the FBI spring their trap), Camel messed up, etc.
leokiko wrote: He referred to him as his old enemy, and Gin hates him a lot, suggesting something happened between them in the past (most likely while Akai was still referred to by his codename Rye).
As mentioned above, because of the level of checks that meeting had, it is unlikely that Gin and Akai had any extended contact before Akai was kicked from the Organization. Kir didn't have to go through checks of that level before her mission. If the rivalry started when Akai was still Dai, it would have to be something indirect, which is possible. We also know Akai survived multiple attempts on his life, so maybe the rivalry developed when they tried to take each other out during the two years after the FBI mission failed?
leokiko wrote: Also, on the stakeout, that was a plan to CAPTURE an executive member, hence Akai already knew who this person was. And they never said it was Gin.(I might be wrong here though, not 100% sure).
James did say it was Gin in 599.09.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on May 4th, 2013, 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by sstimson »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sstimson wrote: Akai HAD a BO  code name, he earned it while working UNDER Gin.
This is wrong. Akai had not been working under Gin when he received his codename. Akai received his codename and then was called to work under Gin, and when they were supposed to meet (and the FBI spring their trap), Camel messed up, etc.
Lets agree to disagree. I have seen what is there, and know neither point can be proven. From what I saw Akai was in the Bo at least three years. What he was doing in those three years is currently unknown. What is known is this: Gin and Akai are more then enemies. They loathe each other. Again it is personal. I think it goes deeper then just Akemi. Something happened during those three years to get them to this state. Akemi was just more fuel for a fire already burning very bright. What that was is currently unknown. But as I see it, since it is very personal and this might not be SFW, they might have had a relationship of more then just friends(?). Akai using the beloved word make one wonder what exactly their relationship was. The point remains though, they are very likely to have met before the "MEETING". The hate between the two is just too strong to be otherwise.

As for the "we finally met" comment, IMO to me it seem more like a I finally got you in my sights ( Gun type ), as in English you can met in a lot of different ways: by Mail, By email, by voice, by sight. I could finally met someone each of those ways and it still be the first time. I added yet another way to met: in a gun sight.

Again, I on my side know that the strong hatred between them and Akai comment about "beloved" are not enough to prove the case and I am sure you also can not prove your side as well. Yes I saw James statement. But notice who the audience is, Jodie who might like Akai a lot. Sometimes it is best to lie, then to tell Jodie something that she and possibly others cannot and do not want to see. A truth about someone she thinks is dead. Sometimes it is best to keep the lie then to remember the fallen in a possible tarnished way.
Last edited by sstimson on December 5th, 2011, 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by kuro_shiro »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
kuro_shiro wrote: i mean anokata(gin on phone ) left judgement to gin(gin in car).as gin could give orders more swiftly through mouth than mail.
This argument does not make sense to me. Can you explain it more clearly?
assuming anokata is  gin and he knows nothing about bourbon's plan(read previou posts for my reason to believe it)
he emailed vermouth that he permits snipping of scar akai but be cautious . if decision of gin isn't default ,anoakata(gin) mentions it.

then vermouth tells gin that boss has given his permission and main decision is left to him.




Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
kuro_shiro wrote: sherry would atleast know the face irrespective of person.we are talking of relations not rape.
Who said anything about rape?
don't run away from point . >:(
the point is sherry would see anokata's face is she had relations with him.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
kuro_shiro wrote:
Spoiler:
he could get info but it is said that he hadn't met gin before .he has staked  out in first meeting and gin didn't come.
rest of bo believed that anokata and gin are different persons .so akai naturally would believe it.
We don’t know that Akai has not met Gin before, but we do know Akai knows who Gin is. (see below) Akai and Gin probably did not work directly together or have any extended contact considering the protocol leading up to the meeting with Gin, but that doesn’t imply they haven’t encountered each other at some point while they were both in the Org.
well, in file 504.13 akai say,"i finally meet you" implying he had not seen him in person before. gin ,on other hand, could have gotten his picture from akemi miyano or gotten a file about him(containg his picture) before setting the meeting in file 599.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: While I do believe that Akai and Gin could not have been close because Akai was just promoted to be under Gin before getting kicked, Akai knew who Gin was. One way we know is because Akai didn’t pay attention to the old man who walked into the meeting place. If Akai had no idea who Gin was, he would have tried interacting with the old man. Also, Akai couldn't have made the "koibito" joke if he didn't know who Gin was. The joke was that Akai nicknamed Gin "koibito" (like how Vermouth was rotten apple) and told James that he was going to make "koibito" cry tears of blood for "leaving him" (dumping him from the Org by never showing up at the meeting). When Akai sniped Gin and grazed his cheek (thus making Gin cry the foreshadowed tears of blood), Akai mentioned Gin being his “koibitoâ€
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

sstimson wrote: Lets agree to disagree. I have seen what is there, and know neither point can be proven.
You are disagreeing not with me but the facts that have been directly stated in the manga. You are contradicting the following four pages directly.
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-2Read/A9.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-2Read/A10.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-10Read/A8.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-10Read/A9.html
kuro_shiro wrote: assuming anokata is  gin and he knows nothing about bourbon's plan(read previou posts for my reason to believe it)
he emailed vermouth that he permits snipping of scar akai but be cautious . if decision of gin isn't default ,anoakata(gin) mentions it.
then vermouth tells gin that boss has given his permission and main decision is left to him.
Vermouth never asked to snipe Scar Akai. It’s the other way around. After Vermouth talked to Gin, Gin backed off of shooting Scar Akai. I’ve explained why this is the case, but it doesn’t make sense if Gin doesn’t know or doesn’t find out who Scar Akai is. According to you, what did Vermouth tell Gin in the whispering scene?
kuro_shiro wrote: don't run away from point . >:(
the point is sherry would see anokata's face is she had relations with him.
I’m not running away any point. Remember my original claim was that if sex was the reason that Vermouth is the boss’s favorite, why is Sherry not one of the boss’s favorites since it’s implied Gin and Sherry were together. I was wondering why you suddenly assumed that Gin raped Shiho. I believe Gin and Shiho had a physical relationship, but no rape was involved. Besides, none of this is helps your original claim that if Shiho and Gin had a relationship it would mean Shiho would know Gin was the boss. Gin could have been just Gin to Shiho.
kuro_shiro wrote: well, in file 504.13 akai say,"i finally meet you" implying he had not seen him in person before. gin ,on other hand, could have gotten his picture from akemi miyano or gotten a file about him(containg his picture) before setting the meeting in file 599.
It could be “I finally meet you” in the sense that it has been a while since Akai’s last encounter with the non-Vermouth org, and it is after Akemi has been killed which was a pretty big event for Akai emotionally.
kuro_shiro wrote: what is "koibito" . the file 330 i read has 'girlfriend' and 'her' instead of koibito.
The explanation for Koibito
Spoiler:
Later, Akai returned to Japan with the FBI with the goal of capturing Vermouth. At this time Akai stated cryptically to James Black that his loved one (koibito) had dumped him and Akai had returned with the intention of making the loved one regret ever leaving him with "tears of blood".(Manga Volume 32, File 10, pg 18: "A Stupid Plan”) Later, Akai, set up 700 yards away, snipes one of Conan's bugs out from between Gin's fingertips. Gin, perhaps anticipating who would be responsible, grabs Korn's rifle and uses it to locate Shuichi Akai. At this time, Akai fires a bullet that passes through Gin's scope and grazes his left cheek causing it to bleed like he is crying. At this time Akai says "we finally meet, my lovely, lovely koibito-san".(Manga Volume 49, File 4, pg 14: Black Organization vs. FBI 2) Aoyama Gosho uses a japanese literary device to give the word "koibito" a double meaning. Japanese in Detective Conan includes the pronunciation, called “furigana”, in hiragana next to the kanji. Normally the furigana matches the word in the kanji; however, Gosho used the kanji for "old enemy" (宿敵), but the furigana for "koibito" (こいびと), giving Akai's word a double meaning. The true meaning of what Akai meant is "old enemy", but what he said out loud was the furigana "koibito". In effect Akai had nicknamed Gin "loved one".
kuro_shiro wrote: well i am sure akai ,atleast, has enogh sense that gin is not going to walk there acting like an old man.
Why not? By your argument, if Gin and Akai haven’t met, how does Akai know what Gin’s personality will be like or whether or not he has disguise abilities?
kuro_shiro wrote: to kill akai in a desrted rihana falls is one thing but to kill someone belonging to FBI in a place where the corpse would be discovered before it hits the ground is entirely something else they need boss's permission to continue as it could expose that BO exists to police and world.
The BO has trended towards very public assassinations. The BO planned to assassinate Domon Yasudera (Yasutera?) in the complete open in both versions of the plan. They sent bombs to a public hospital. The FBI collected them all, but if a civilian found one or they exploded, it would have been public mayhem. They were willing to blow up a train. If Gin had managed to kill Sherry on the roof at Haido hotel, her blood and body would have had to be left there (Gin didn’t know there was going to be a fire.) Basically as long as no one knows who did it and the BO can get away cleanly, they can commit the crime. Gin clearly has some latitude in his judgement on what to do when, probably because his judgement is pretty good. Akai has been a particularly dangerous person for the Org, enough so that the boss refers to Akai as a silver bullet. If anyone should be gotten rid of as soon as possible, Akai is the guy.
kuro_shiro wrote: if bourbon was killed and police told media that an unknown guy wearing a latex mask of burned guy was found dead (showing bourbon's photo) then if gin knew that bourbon could not disguise by himself then he will torture and interrogate vermouth first and kill her later. vermouth knows it and boss(irrespective of identity) won't favor her much after she let die bourbon when she could have cleared the confusion.
This does not make sense. If Gin (who I am assuming isn’t the boss for the sake of this argument) accidentally killed Bourbon whom Gin knew couldn’t disguise without Vermouth’s help (which is the scenario you described), he would go ask Vermouth what the hell she and Bourbon were doing, not kill her. Killing her doesn’t make sense in this scenario because A) she had the boss’s permission for the plan, B) it wasn’t her fault, and C) Bourbon dying did not expose the Org. The boss’s permission is self explanatory as a defense. It is mostly Bourbon’s mission as he is the primary active agent, so it is his job to tell Gin without letting Kir get wind of it. Vermouth wasn’t killed even after she allowed her name to be made public on the Halloween ship case. Vermouth could lose some favor, but that doesn't mean she will be killed. The boss doesn't kill people for messing up as long as they aren't liabilities. Gin and Vodka weren't killed for botching the train mission, Vodka wasn't killed for nearly walking into a trap, no one was killed for the Org vs. FBI mission failure, and Vermouth avoided death even after the serious reveal on the boat.
kuro_shiro wrote: after this simple imagination, i am sure vermouth would have revealed the operation to gin if she knew it. to top it gin realised thaat scar akai is bourbon yet he did not question vermouth.why?
because he knows that bourbon ,himself, is talented enough.
Remember, as I said before, secrecy from Kir is critical to the success of the Scar Akai plan. This isn’t easy, as Kir, Bourbon, and Vermouth are all in the same recon division. Bourbon and Vermouth kept the plan secret from everyone to avoid slips and forged (with the boss’s input most likely) a largely fake reason for Bourbon to be activated (looking for Shiho). Vermouth and Bourbon had no reason to tell Gin, who would have been contemptuous of the plan in the first place because he believes he did kill Akai, because it would be a pretty unlikely coincidence for Gin to stumble across the one place where Scar Akai is in time to mount an assassination attempt. Well, Murphy’s law ensued. Luckily for Bourbon, Vermouth got wind of the mobilization by Gin to assassinate Akai, maybe because Kir was called to Gin (and Kir is in the same division as Vermouth). If she had some idea that Bourbon was acting as Scar Akai that day (if she made the mask then she probably would), she realized that perhaps Bourbon was mistakenly being targeted. She reaches Gin soon enough and tells him the plan (the whispering panel).
Gin does indeed question her; Gin’s first question is if she had the boss’s permission for the plan, and Vermouth tells him yes. Of course, after this Gin lets Scar Akai go and announces that Bourbon is an annoying selfish bastard.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on May 4th, 2013, 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sstimson
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Re: Anokata theory: The boss may be...

Post by sstimson »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sstimson wrote: Lets agree to disagree. I have seen what is there, and know neither point can be proven.
You are disagreeing not with me but the facts that have been directly stated in the manga. You are contradicting the following four pages directly.
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-2Read/A9.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-2Read/A10.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-10Read/A8.html
http://dctp.ws/V58-Reader/V58-10Read/A9.html
To clarify:
Akai might have met Gin during those three years in the BO
Akai might have worked for Gin. It like A works for B who works for C. A is working for C through B.
Akai might have been going to met the BOSS when he went to met with Gin.
The BOSS might be the old guy that Camel chased away.

Again the 'Finally met' can be taken several ways in English
Those points do not direct disagree with the Manga  and those pages you pointed out

One final point about met. I met someone and become friends. My friend is going to be in town and I MET them at a store for example.
Note, I plan on meeting someone who I already know and have met before.
Last edited by sstimson on December 6th, 2011, 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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