Anokata theory: The boss may be...

[Copperfield]

I want to post my theory about the boss, too. Sorry for my bad english, a very long post and i am not sure if somebody had the same theories before me...

Spoiler: my theory

Anokata must have some moral principles, too
There must be something about moral issues in the end. Conan is shown as an highly moral person , following personal principles. The reader will have to think about good and right, and Conan will clarify, what right is in the end. We know that the organization tries to „go against the stream of time“(Haibara). Maybe the Anokata tries to do this for humanities sake, maybe he wants to end the death? Wouldn't it make mankind happier?
So the B.O. might actually be moral person (some strange and doubtful moral, though), too.

The B.O.' boss is smarter than Conan (at least he is superior until end, when he loses) or equal to Conan.
So far no characters are smarter and can do better detuctions than Conan. At best their at the same level as Conan. (exept of: yusaku kudo, who is probably smarter then conan; but i will ignore that fact for a start).
It appeared that many characters are nearly as smart as Conan.
e.g. Gin + he did some pretty good detuctions, he is shown as very intelligent and sharp-minded; he is equal to Conan.

Would Gin respect and follow orders of somebody, who isn't at least as sharp-minded as him? Obvisously, not. Therefore the Boss must be at least that smart that members as Gin respect him and follow his instructions.
Moreover he must really be very anticipating, since his organization was kept in secret for „more than a half century“. On contrary Conan hardly hides his identity and does severe mistakes: e.g. Conan had a lot of luck that Gin didn't find him in file 380 or shoot Kogoro in file 504 .

An other point is, that a character smarter than Conan would be very exciting. Since no character was shown to be superior to Conan, it would be something new, too.

Anakota knows Conan's and Ai's identity.
-How can he know?
We can assume, that Anakota knows everything happening in the Organization and is informed about success and failure.
-He surely knows about the Organizations aim: to raise the dead against the stream of time.
-He might know about the project of APTX 4869 and about rejuvention of Vermouth
Therefore he might know that there possibly are shrunken persons.
-He might know that Kogoro is related to many B.O's cases (since he is informed about all cases and has noticed  relations to Kogoro); he might have checked on him, and found out about Conan and Ai, too.

-Why doesn't he kill Conan and  Ai?
-since he knows who Conan is, he is able to calculate how dangerous he is, he knows he is superior  to Conan and Anokata thinks he can stop him as soon as he is a real threat
-it might be some kind of test, he can see where the b.o. has some security lacks, he tests his members and their skills
-it might be some kind of fun for him to observe Conan
-maybe it's kind of gambling between him and Vermouth, how far Conan will get? (But Vermouth does secretly think that Conan will destroy the B.O)
-Ai is less dangerous then Conan since she is too scared to do actions
-he might think Ai is still useful for the research of APTX 4896

[Partsu]

Long post?
YOu clearly haven't read some of the sstimsons or Chek's posts...that was average...theirs are long...
While I don't think the boss knows about Conan and Ai and about the good intentions of BO...
you have some pretty valid points...

I think the original intent of BO was good but it strayed from its path and became criminal org...and Vermouth has been in it since the start and meeting shinichi reminded her of "the old days"...and that's why she wants someone to crush the org...or make its boss realize his errors...

I think the boss is someone very close to Vermouth and probably somehow connected to the 4 main characters (Agasa,Shinichi,Ran and Kogoro,most likely Kogoro and Ran)

[Copperfield]

Long post?
YOu clearly haven't read some of the sstimsons or Chek's posts...that was average...theirs are long...
While I don't think the boss knows about Conan and Ai and about the good intentions of BO...
you have some pretty valid points...

I think the original intent of BO was good but it strayed from its path and became criminal org...and Vermouth has been in it since the start and meeting shinichi reminded her of "the old days"...and that's why she wants someone to crush the org...or make its boss realize his errors...

I think the boss is someone very close to Vermouth and probably somehow connected to the 4 main characters (Agasa,Shinichi,Ran and Kogoro,most likely Kogoro and Ran)

Well, i think that the boss' intention and his ways are the same as at the beginnig. He thinks that his crimes and muders are eligible since he does it for the sake of humanity. He thinks that he will kill about hundred people but save millions, since he will "raise death against the stream of time". It is quite opposite to Shinichi's moral thinking, which one can see, when he says: "...i wouldn't know the motives for a person killing a person"(volume 35; he said this to  Vermouth, who was diguised as an serial killer during the new york case) or when he says: "but it is sad, that no matter how i try, i cannot figure out the reason a peron can muder another. No, i can understand it, but i can't relate to it or agree to it, i can't"(vermouth heard that, too, disguised as dr. araide).
Vermouth believed at the beginning in anokata's moral. I think later (maybe around the time of the NY case) she started doubting his aim. Maybe she thinks now similar to Ai, that "Humans can never go against the stream of time. If man forcibly tries to change that there will be punishment"
Because she doubts Anokatas aim, she doubts his ways, too. Not the other way around. Shinichi's moral principles satisfied her more. Therefore she thinks he i not only because he is smart, but also because of his believe in the inviolability of human dignity and life, the "silver bullet".

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

The general problem with the whole "Vermouth took APTX 4869" theory in general is that it doesn't make sense if you think about the implications of the rest of the Org finding out about her deaging and the timing of when she would have taken it.

       If Vermouth took APTX 4869 and became younger, then the effects of APTX would be known to the greater Org. If the boss, who has been stated to be cautious to a fault, knew about the risk that someone might survive APTX 4869, he would not let his subordinates use the drug for murder without letting them know there was a chance it would leave people alive; if someone escaped, they could talk to the police or someone else and leak the secret of the Black Organization's existence. If the Org knew about the shrinking effect, that means the Org already used it in two situations where they would have violated the boss's mandate to be cautious, Nomiguchi's time sensitive assassination where failure was unacceptable and Shinichi's "death" which was not seen through to the end. If Gin knew APTX failed to work some of the time, he would have never left Shinichi alone while it acted, and would have also gone looking for him after his body disappeared if that was the case. Also, if Gin knew about the shrinking, Gin could have figured out how Shiho escaped from the locked room while handcuffed, and thus wouldn't have bothered asking her about it on the hotel rooftop.
       You could make the argument that Vermouth hid the effects, but then you have to explain why Gin didn't comment or tell the boss later after the shipyard showdown. Akai grazed her face and deduced that it was her real one. Gin who picked her up after the showdown in the shipping yard could have easily made the same deduction. Gin is loyal to the boss more than he favors Vermouth, and if the Org's central mission involves any sort of life extension, one of the boss' agents getting younger is a big deal and won't go unquestioned even if she is a favorite of the boss. At the least they would find out what she took to deage.

The easy and sensible way to resolve this problem and explain Vermouth's non-aging is to consider that Vermouth may have been taken something else, maybe a long time ago, so everyone already knows about Vermouth's non-aging already. APTX-4869 is not that something else (maybe APTX is a work in progress attempting to recreate that something else whose formula was lost?), so the Org isn't aware that APTX 4869 causes deaging as well.

There is also timing to consider. Vermouth didn't take APTX 4869 after discovering its effects when she saw Conan and Ai because Gin or someone would have noticed she had become younger all of a sudden. You then have the same argument as above about the Org finding out about what APTX does and  Gin noticing the grazes, etc. Before Vermouth saw Conan and Ai, everyone else in the Org thought APTX was lethal only. Sherry's shrinking mouse was not widely reported or Gin could figure out how she escaped from the locked room while handcuffed. Even Shiho Miyano, who was aware APTX 4869 could rarely cause de-aging, expected it to kill her. "I thought that since I was going to get killed anyways, I would take the APTX 4869 which I secretly held. To my luck, the drug that I took thinking it would kill me shrunk by body..." (V18-9 pg 8) Vermouth would not take it unless she was trying to commit suicide or making a stupid gamble, and Vermouth is not stupid nor does she seem suicidal (Why use APTX which is apparently agonizing instead of one of her guns which would likely be faster and less painful?). Even with the suicide case, you run into the above-explained problem of the Org wondering why Vermouth got younger all of a sudden and then finding out about APTX 4869.

[Copperfield]

I agree with you, that Vermouth didn't take APTX 4986.

I think that APTX 4986 was made with the propose to make something to stop aging or to rejuvenate, like that what made Vermouth younger. There must be a connection between Vermouth and APTX. It would be too much of coincidence, if there were multiple rejuvenated persons in one story without some kind of same background story.

APTX 4986 is a project which lasts already over 50 years. The project seems to be dropped. Otherwise sciencists would find out, as Sherry did, what side effects APTX might have and it's very unlikely that they keep it in secret as Sherry did. Conan and Ai would be in danger.

But why would they dropp a project, which consumed a lot of time, just like that?
Of course, Sherry, the most important sciencist vanished. But for an organization as big and powerful as the B.O., it should be easy to get some brilliant sciencists to research. At least sciencists would be able to reproduce APTX 4986, since they have the data about APTX 4896, and start testing it on laboratory mouses. Again they would see what side effects are.
Moreover Ai doesn't seem to worry about that. What makes her sure that nobody will research on APTX?

Maybe she knows that the real propose was never to make a drug to muder people but to rejuvenate. She also knows that this is the main intention of Anokata, to win against death. Anokata keeps his intentions in secret and nobody in the organization knows exatly what they are aiming for. Maybe he told them lies. Therefore he wouldn't just take any sciencist to research on APTX, which is strongly connected with anokatas intentions.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I think that APTX 4986 was made with the propose to make something to stop aging or to rejuvenate, like that what made Vermouth younger. There must be a connection between Vermouth and APTX. It would be too much of coincidence, if there were multiple rejuvenated persons in one story without some kind of same background story.

I originally thought you were saying that you thought Vermouth took APTX. My mistake there, sorry. In this case, you might like the theory that APTX 4869 is actually based on the Miyanos researching Vermouth trying to replicate the lost formula which caused Vermouth to stop aging, which is why Vermouth knows and doesn't like the Miyanos and calls their research "foolish".

But why would they dropp a project, which consumed a lot of time, just like that?
Of course, Sherry, the most important sciencist vanished. But for an organization as big and powerful as the B.O., it should be easy to get some brilliant sciencists to research. At least sciencists would be able to reproduce APTX 4986, since they have the data about APTX 4896, and start testing it on laboratory mouses. Again they would see what side effects are.
Moreover Ai doesn't seem to worry about that. What makes her sure that nobody will research on APTX?

There isn't much she can do to stop them. She mentioned to Conan in her intro case if the Black Organization keeps using APTX someone else will shrink too, so she is already worried about one time limit. To Shiho's benefit, I know from personal experience that if a primary investigator (head of a lab) or major lab tech dies, it may take half a year to a year to get someone else to reacquire the skills they have and go back through their notes and stuff. The more unique and difficult the research skills, the longer it takes to get a replacement working on the same level. If BO had to get a super child Shiho to replace the dead Miyano parents, the research is probably pretty deep.

[sstimson]

of course this part goes back to one of my very early theories. Another what if. What if the Drug was never mean to kill? The reason it kills is most can not survive the change to a younger person, they did as the body can not take the stress. The true is keep away for persons like Gin. Like Vermouth, Haibara has her own agenda, and not all of what she says can be taken at face value. Your point about the drug shrinking other misc is a good one, and one that might help this crazy theory of mine. Howeven this is not the place. There is a thread called The Truth about the Drug and any more discussion on this topic should go there.
http://forum.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3484.0

[leokiko]

Wouldn't the boss know about that? If it happened with Vermouth, he could have easily found Sherry if he told the agents to find her by searching an younger version of her.

[sstimson]

Again I point to my other threads. All might not be as it seems. This time check this one
http://forum.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=2577.0

[kuro_shiro]

who is anokata?
the first possibilities have been discussed
the middle ones are being discussed

and i am posting the last possibility in this spoiler

Spoiler:

gosho is a fraud. he said that line in interview to
1) make conan fans reread the chapters and go through wild imaginations
2)develop more curiosity in conan fans

at the end ,gosho will simply take a look at prevous volumes pick an unrelated and forgotten character and make him the boss.

[kuro_shiro]

If Gin was the boss, we need to make the assumption he is pretending to be his own agent. He has engaged in many rather open missions where he has been attacked. This is risky behavior then, contradicting what Vermouth said about the boss being very cautious.

Gin and rest of BO wears bullrtproof jacket. and sometimes things can't be left to people like vodka. even if it is risky it is required for gin to be on the scene.the boss is said to be cautious despite it he gave his permission and left the decision to gin.

Also, if the boss's favorite is Vermouth, we somehow need to rationalize that behavior with Gin not liking her for keeping secrets, threatening her with a gun, and trying to drive an icepick through her head. (for fun?) Two people can be physically involved without liking the other, but Vermouth is the boss's favorite. If was all about the sex, why would Sherry not be the boss's (Gin) favorite considering it was suggested they were involved?

yes he did it for fun
he did it because she irritated him. beside if anokata and sherry had relations then sherry would know the identity and face  of anokata. 

Gin did not know about Bourbon's plan to disguise as Akai. Vermouth said she had the boss's permission for the plan because he was very cautious. Of course this relies on the basic Bourbon arc speculations being true.

The FBI were hoping to capture Gin who would lead them to the boss. This means Akai and the other FBI think there is someone over Gin at least. (599.09)

Boss gave vermouth too much freedom. he could have given similiar freedoms to bourbon.
gin certainly has extra freedoms.
and the boss seems to trust gin quite a lot as gin murdered shinichi without asking for permissions. but rest of agents don't kill without getting permssions form both boss and gin


because FBI thought so   ,  so what ?? FBI doesn't have any info on anokata either .FBI knew exactly what akai told them and akai didn't even knew boss's number.

[mihai]

I want to post my theory about the boss, too. Sorry for my bad english, a very long post and i am not sure if somebody had the same theories before me...

Spoiler: my theory

Anokata must have some moral principles, too
There must be something about moral issues in the end. Conan is shown as an highly moral person , following personal principles. The reader will have to think about good and right, and Conan will clarify, what right is in the end. We know that the organization tries to „go against the stream of time“(Haibara). Maybe the Anokata tries to do this for humanities sake, maybe he wants to end the death? Wouldn't it make mankind happier?
So the B.O. might actually be moral person (some strange and doubtful moral, though), too.

The B.O.' boss is smarter than Conan (at least he is superior until end, when he loses) or equal to Conan.
So far no characters are smarter and can do better detuctions than Conan. At best their at the same level as Conan. (exept of: yusaku kudo, who is probably smarter then conan; but i will ignore that fact for a start).
It appeared that many characters are nearly as smart as Conan.
e.g. Gin + he did some pretty good detuctions, he is shown as very intelligent and sharp-minded; he is equal to Conan.

Would Gin respect and follow orders of somebody, who isn't at least as sharp-minded as him? Obvisously, not. Therefore the Boss must be at least that smart that members as Gin respect him and follow his instructions.
Moreover he must really be very anticipating, since his organization was kept in secret for „more than a half century“. On contrary Conan hardly hides his identity and does severe mistakes: e.g. Conan had a lot of luck that Gin didn't find him in file 380 or shoot Kogoro in file 504 .

An other point is, that a character smarter than Conan would be very exciting. Since no character was shown to be superior to Conan, it would be something new, too.

Anakota knows Conan's and Ai's identity.
-How can he know?
We can assume, that Anakota knows everything happening in the Organization and is informed about success and failure.
-He surely knows about the Organizations aim: to raise the dead against the stream of time.
-He might know about the project of APTX 4869 and about rejuvention of Vermouth
Therefore he might know that there possibly are shrunken persons.
-He might know that Kogoro is related to many B.O's cases (since he is informed about all cases and has noticed  relations to Kogoro); he might have checked on him, and found out about Conan and Ai, too.

-Why doesn't he kill Conan and  Ai?
-since he knows who Conan is, he is able to calculate how dangerous he is, he knows he is superior  to Conan and Anokata thinks he can stop him as soon as he is a real threat
-it might be some kind of test, he can see where the b.o. has some security lacks, he tests his members and their skills
-it might be some kind of fun for him to observe Conan
-maybe it's kind of gambling between him and Vermouth, how far Conan will get? (But Vermouth does secretly think that Conan will destroy the B.O)
-Ai is less dangerous then Conan since she is too scared to do actions
-he might think Ai is still useful for the research of APTX 4896

if you think about "going against the stream of time", what if The Boss will be Moriarty himself? Maybe that's what the whole scientific effort from the various researchers is for

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

If Gin was the boss, we need to make the assumption he is pretending to be his own agent. He has engaged in many rather open missions where he has been attacked. This is risky behavior then, contradicting what Vermouth said about the boss being very cautious.

Gin and rest of BO wears bullrtproof jacket. and sometimes things can't be left to people like vodka. even if it is risky it is required for gin to be on the scene.the boss is said to be cautious despite it he gave his permission and left the decision to gin.

Wait a minute. Now you are saying "The boss is said to be cautious, but despite that, he gave his permission and left the decision to Gin." You were just arguing Gin is the boss. Is the boss a split personality in Gin's head or something now?

beside if anokata and sherry had relations then sherry would know the identity and face  of anokata.  

Only if Gin is anokata...

Gin did not know about Bourbon's plan to disguise as Akai. Vermouth said she had the boss's permission for the plan because he was very cautious. Of course this relies on the basic Bourbon arc speculations being true.

Boss gave vermouth too much freedom. he could have given similiar freedoms to bourbon.
gin certainly has extra freedoms.

That rebuttal about freedoms isn't relevant to the point I made. If you go by the popular theory that SA=B and Vermouth helped with the disguise, when Gin and Vermouth had a chat in 704, Gin asked if Vermouth got permission from the boss [for the plan to disguise Bourbon as Akai]. Vermouth gave the affirmative. If Gin was the boss, he would already know about the plan in advance, and thus wouldn't have shown up to "re-kill" Scar Akai.
The freedom thing brings up another point: if Gin was the boss, why would he put up with agents running around keeping secrets as much as they do? We know that Gin hates it. Can't he request more discipline for all of his agents like anokata did for Vermouth? If Gin was the boss, why would he even let someone like Bourbon codename if he doesn't like him?

and the boss seems to trust gin quite a lot as gin murdered shinichi without asking for permissions. but rest of agents don't kill without getting permssions form both boss and gin

The decision to kill Shinichi was an obvious on-the-spot judgement. If Gin had to call the boss for every unexpected witness that showed up, you would have something like this happen eventually:

Gin: "Hey Vodka, sit on this kid I just smacked while I call the boss and ask what we do with him..."
*Gin dials Nanatsu no ko*
Gin texts: Boss, there is a kid who was watching us during the transaction. I think he is a detective. Can I kill him?
*five minutes later*
Gin: "Must be on the toilet..."
*ten minutes later*
Gin: "... having a real hard time."
*thirty minutes later*
Vodka: "Maybe he fell in? Or went to sleep? ... Hey the kid woke up again, should I hit him some more?"
Police: "Hey! What are you two doing sitting on top of that beat up teenager?"

because FBI thought so  ??? ,   so what ?? FBI doesn't have any info on anokata either .FBI knew exactly what akai told them and akai didn't even knew boss's number.

Akai frequently comes to correct conclusions, and even if he isn't high ranking, he can watch the chain of orders dished out, observe his immediate superiors' circumstances, and deduce there must be someone on top who must know more that his superiors and is coordinating them. We also know he got close to Shiho through Akemi and Shiho is certainly in the know about many high level things. I'm certainly not claiming that Akai knows lots of inner secrets, but if you put someone with about Shinichi's intelligence and deduction in an Organization for three years nearby one of their top ranked scientists, he'll probably make some pretty good guesses about the management.

[unclesporkums]

Love that sense of humor!

[sstimson]

To go back to my idea, of Camel and Akai seeing the Boss.

    If you are the Boss of the BO. First you check out your new employee very careful and find out all you can about them. But at some time unknown to them, you will want to see them face to face. What better way then to be somewhere you are not suppose to be. A final test. I think it funny, that it is possible that camel might have ordered away the very person that Akai might have been about to met.
    As for it being Gin, well it seem Akai knows Gin very well, so it seem to me they have met, and in that case such a meting is meaningless. Gin for sure knows Akai.
    The real question remains. Who was Akai going to met that day. I do not think it was Gin, because then he could show the FBI a photo of Gin and say get this man when he shows up, and as we already know Gin, Akai saying he was going to met Gin. would not be a Big deal. No, it says he was going to met an executive member, and this person was a leader. Why did it not say he was going to met Gin? Why the mystery?