Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

satou detain can be used as protections.. so why not using it?

maybe so you don't expose yourself?

There's nothing wrong with detaining people, but that doesn't mean you should go around claiming "hey everybody I detained X!", nor that you should be able to do so without worrying about it.

[Schillok]

satou detain can be used as protections.. so why not using it?

Well... because that is why we are discussing to change how detain works since about 3 games now. Yes, detain can be used to protect someone - and if I were Satou in a game I would definitely use it as often as I can - but it is just too strong. It just does way too much for a town ability, there is almost nothing the BO can do to prevent it or even predict it.
Taking a suspect out of the game for 2 phases can be fine under certain conditions. It can slow down the information gathering process of the BO and even end games when the last BO got detained no matter how well he tried hiding and detaining has a relatively low risk since a townie would be released soon. But I think it should not mess with the killing. This could be achieved if the detain happens either AFTER the killing (before all other action) or even after all other actions.
The first one has the advantage that it is harder to determine by the target if it was arrested or detained. The second has the advantage that the victim at leasts gets its results and does not have to redo their last action once it gets released (which means the victim can participate better in the game, instead of being forced to do NOTHING for the next 2-3 phases...).  

[miikosan]

I have a suggestion for Pisco's Erase Evidence.

It works similar to his erase body. So he has 1x erase evidence for each crime, and then once he kills he recharges.

For example: Night 1, Gin (miiko) slanders Yusaku (mystery) and Pisco (tonso) erases the slander.
Night 2, miiko slander mystery again, tonso cannot erase. However, tonso killed a townie that night. His erases are recharged.
Night 3, miiko slanders Kleene. tonso can then erase that again.

So it's not as underpowered as 1x only throughout the entire game, and it's not as overpowered as being able to erase same types of crimes multiple times.

[Schillok]

I have a suggestion for Pisco's Erase Evidence.

It works similar to his erase body. So he has 1x erase evidence for each crime, and then once he kills he recharges.

For example: Night 1, Gin (miiko) slanders Yusaku (mystery) and Pisco (tonso) erases the slander.
Night 2, miiko slander mystery again, tonso cannot erase. However, tonso killed a townie that night. His erases are recharged.
Night 3, miiko slanders Kleene. tonso can then erase that again.

So it's not as underpowered as 1x only throughout the entire game, and it's not as overpowered as being able to erase same types of crimes multiple times.

Mhh... yeah, I like that idea. Flavor-wise it is a bit weak ("Hey Gin, I just killed that Doctor. Now I can make sure no one finds out you are slandering people again.") but in the sense of gameplay it looks good. It probably means that Pisco will never be the first BO killing, but I think that is tolerable. (Not like the BO is likely to send him night 1 at the current state...)

[Kleene Onigiri]

I had an idea for inactive players. Well, not to get rid of them. But to compensate the loss a bit :V
Since you always think "Meh, someone inactive got Heiji as a role while I have this "useless" one ;_;".
So, inactive ones still get kicked out (killed, travel away, arrested, what ever). But on the day/night the player is getting kicked, the actual role still says for 2 phases.
During those 2 phases, the GM chooses a random active player (BO or not BO) to give the action power to that player (whether injured or not. Should be alive and not arrested tho).
This way, the ability of that inactive player can get used at least.

If that player uses a night action, he can be investigated for it, as if he'd did it, but also, the player that got inactive, can be investigated for the same action.

So if Akonyl get's control over Heiji(Beastly), he can be investigated "Akonyl interrogates Kleene". But "Beastly interrogates Kleene" will come back as true too.
BO can also get access to that, so people can say someone is town because he got control over a inactive player.
It's also just for 2 phases (the next 2 phases after the inactive one is kicked out) You can't get a extra vote. And you can't use passive abilities (akais revenge) or APTX either.

Since you usually have more town than BOs in the game (:P) a townie is more likely to get the control over the ability too. (since town roles are usually also getting kicked out)

[xpon]

btw.... i have a suggestions,

1. Agasa will use his gadget on night 1 ( both watch and bowtie )
this will provide a cover for anokata who use BS on night 1 too

2. find a new character to replace Sherry. so this new character can play on the same round as Ai is.

[Akonyl]

how does giving Agasa gadgets on Night 1 benefit Anokata at all? I don't really follow :V

And I don't see a reason to replace sherry just because she and Ai can't be in the same game, it's pretty much like Shinichi+Conan. But if people have an issue with this, could just switch it to Atsushi Miyano, take away the panties and make the character an adult.

Anyway, a few things from this round:
1) Gin only had Slander 2 rather than 3, if he's kept this way it might be good to give him at least 1 or 2 of his investigations back (so, Slander 2, investigate 2 or so), though personally I think he should just have 3 slanders considering the size of games now
2) Yukiko+Irish being able to disguise on Night 1 and not having a night where they can't disguise: I'm fine with this, but if we end up actually making this change we should make sure it's clearly in the rules
3) Minerva: She should be given something else, as she is, all she is is a Kaito Kid without Steal. I'm not sure what additional ability she should be given, but having her just be a worse Kaito Kid is a bit lame
4) One-Time-Use abilities: If a character that doesn't innately have the ability uses it (like Sonoko or Calvados), what should happen? Should it count as the person they were copying using the ability (so it can't be used again), or in the case of Sonoko befriending Kobayashi, should they get two VoRs?
5) Anokata's killing ability: Perhaps change this so that this can only work on abilities that are unlimited uses (observe, interrogate, investigate, etc)? That way, Anokata can't use it to erase someone (in the case of no pisco), or to break someone out of jail.

[pofa]

Maybe we should also tweak Uehara a little. Hopeless was saying she's pretty useless, only able to do one of her actions per 2 phases and also having no way to know if her results are accurate (because of disguise). Maybe we should remove one or the other of those stipulations (so she could use both but they'd still be weak to disguise, or just use one but remove the disguise clause).

[Yurikochan]

Also if Irish gets changed to always being able to disguise, he needs a new killing action.

Actually, Anokata with all abilities was interesting. :x

[Akonyl]

Also if Irish gets changed to always being able to disguise, he needs a new killing action.

not necessarily, as he could still use it to get more important disguises that he doesn't already have access to, though maybe it should then be changed to him choosing 2 outfits instead of 3.

[KangarooGirl]

Maybe we should also tweak Uehara a little. Hopeless was saying she's pretty useless, only able to do one of her actions per 2 phases and also having no way to know if her results are accurate (because of disguise). Maybe we should remove one or the other of those stipulations (so she could use both but they'd still be weak to disguise, or just use one but remove the disguise clause).

This. So much. Especially bad for me because I'm a paranoid player.

Also if Irish gets changed to always being able to disguise, he needs a new killing action.

not necessarily, as he could still use it to get more important disguises that he doesn't already have access to, though maybe it should then be changed to him choosing 2 outfits instead of 3.

Well, see, in the next few that he gets, chances are he'll get the ability he wanted anyway so I don't really see the point, tbh

[Schillok]

Well, I am against allowing Irish/Yukiko to be disguised all the time.
If they are allowed to get new disguises it should at least cost them a night (maybe allow them to get rid of all of their remaining disguises in case they have to realize they don't need them?) in which they are not disguised either. I liked the idea that they had a limited pool of disguises which had to last them for the game, but I guess it is not possible to plan a game several nights ahead - they might feel like they would have liked

So my suggestion:
A) Make Choose Temporary Disguise a night action
- can only be used when the user is not disguised at the moment (if there were any temp. disguises left, they will lose all of them)
- the GM will send a list of 3 roles (not 5 and they can chose 3 like it is now) which they could not have disguised as before (So Irish won't be Eri twice)
[This could be changed back to 5 roles. But it means that during the next day the player has to answer which roles he/she wants to keep and which disguise he/she actually wants to wear the next night.)

B) Irishs Killing Ability lets him choose any role as temp. disguise he wants
- he is still restricted in that way that he can't chose a role that already is/was on his disguise list (in case there is a particularly troublesome disguise it will be only there for one night)


It would allow the BO to get a certain role (ability) for one night if they need a special one. Like I said, we should consider making lawsuit a day action (Would also serve the Anokata using lawsuit problem) or remove it from the game completely. Also, when Irish is the last BO left he will always get the role he wants to keep trying to win (although he would
Unfortunately... well, it is hard to find a logic reason for Irish and Yukiko to not be able to disguise as the same person twice. Though, maybe they don't want to press their luck in case the person they disguised as heard about it and made precautions if it happens again.

how does giving Agasa gadgets on Night 1 benefit Anokata at all? I don't really follow :V

Me neither. I was Agasa last game, he certainly is a powerful role who doesn't NEED those gadgets night 1. Though, it was a bit boring not being able to do anything myself and having to hope my gadgets end up in the right hands.
But... it is probably better to leave it the way it is now.

And I don't see a reason to replace sherry just because she and Ai can't be in the same game, it's pretty much like Shinichi+Conan. But if people have an issue with this, could just switch it to Atsushi Miyano, take away the panties and make the character an adult.

I don't really see the problem either. We have some roles that give constraints to other roles (Conan means no Shinichi, Haibara means no Sherry and a Detective Boy means at least one more Detective Boy) and I would like to keep them in the game the way they are.

Anyway, a few things from this round:
1) Gin only had Slander 2 rather than 3, if he's kept this way it might be good to give him at least 1 or 2 of his investigations back (so, Slander 2, investigate 2 or so), though personally I think he should just have 3 slanders considering the size of games now

Well, yes. Though, we should be careful to not let the slandering grow too high. If Calvados covers Gin, would they have 6 slanders together? That makes interrogations almost useless, since that would be enough to keep all the "normal BO members" hidden and even slander one or two townies in a normal sized game. I think in that case I would rather re-increase his investigations (they are important for the BO as well... if possible I would like to give it to one more BO member without it being a killing action)

2) Yukiko+Irish being able to disguise on Night 1 and not having a night where they can't disguise: I'm fine with this, but if we end up actually making this change we should make sure it's clearly in the rules

See the beginning of my post

3) Minerva: She should be given something else, as she is, all she is is a Kaito Kid without Steal. I'm not sure what additional ability she should be given, but having her just be a worse Kaito Kid is a bit lame

Do we actually want to keep that role? Right now it doesn't feel like there is a need to increase our town rooster. Maybe we could bring it back later if we have 30+ players again regularly.

4) One-Time-Use abilities: If a character that doesn't innately have the ability uses it (like Sonoko or Calvados), what should happen? Should it count as the person they were copying using the ability (so it can't be used again), or in the case of Sonoko befriending Kobayashi, should they get two VoRs?

I think the best idea would be to completely disallow this kind of one-time-ability be used by Sonoko or Calvados completely. If they want to have it used, they will have to talk with the one who has the original ability and have him/her use it.

5) Anokata's killing ability: Perhaps change this so that this can only work on abilities that are unlimited uses (observe, interrogate, investigate, etc)? That way, Anokata can't use it to erase someone (in the case of no pisco), or to break someone out of jail.

Well, if they erase they lose the chance to use him for any other ability, and it is a crime. If we make Blame not a crime anymore, this might matter.
Oh, and he has to have the Black Suitcase in the first place, which means no fake actions for the whole BO that night and requires planing one day ahead.
The only ability that is a problem is law-suit (and maybe detention since I have no idea how long it would last...) and if we make law-suit a day ability it would deal with this problem AND with Irish copying it.
(Nothing against what the BO did last game, but I think we all rather don't want to see a chain of "Anokata releases Irish; who releases yet another BO" in future games. Because that could turn into a very common maneuver if the BO feels like it had caught up to the town enough. And I would not want having to reduce the BO numbers even more, they seemed fine the last games).

[Akonyl]

Well, yes. Though, we should be careful to not let the slandering grow too high. If Calvados covers Gin, would they have 6 slanders together? That makes interrogations almost useless, since that would be enough to keep all the "normal BO members" hidden and even slander one or two townies in a normal sized game. I think in that case I would rather re-increase his investigations (they are important for the BO as well... if possible I would like to give it to one more BO member without it being a killing action)

Slander # - Crime
...
- If Calvados covers Gin, Calvados only receives Slander 1.

[Vylash]

hey, minerva is awesome

[Schillok]

Well, yes. Though, we should be careful to not let the slandering grow too high. If Calvados covers Gin, would they have 6 slanders together? That makes interrogations almost useless, since that would be enough to keep all the "normal BO members" hidden and even slander one or two townies in a normal sized game. I think in that case I would rather re-increase his investigations (they are important for the BO as well... if possible I would like to give it to one more BO member without it being a killing action)

Slander # - Crime
...
- If Calvados covers Gin, Calvados only receives Slander 1.

Still, in a game with 6 BO, two being Vermouth and Anokata, it would allow them to cloak all of their members if they wanted. I don't really want to have cross-examine being the main way of the town to find BO until they have found out if Gin is in the game. Even with only Gin only one would be interrogation (or is the "one BO, one town" rule still there?).
Maybe return to what it was? One town, one BO. We could have Clavados being able to copy one whole action in the future. It would feel strange if he can only slander 1 from Gin while we would be able to use his investigate 2 (or how many he will get) in return.
Now, having 2 BO mainly occupied to slander 2 of their own and 2 from the town sounds better in my ears.



We were changing the rules so often (or discussing about changing them bit not doing it in the end) I kinda got lost what the most current version of them is...