Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Abs.]

Mind you, not all GMs peruse every single post in this thread before they GM a round. 

Except this one Though I usually don't read this thread if I'm just playing :x

You were exactly who I was thinking of when I included "not all GMs" and "every single post in this thread" 

[Conia]

Mind you, not all GMs peruse every single post in this thread before they GM a round. 

Except this one Though I usually don't read this thread if I'm just playing :x

You were exactly who I was thinking of when I included "not all GMs" and "every single post in this thread" 

[Schillok]

Changes from Round 19:
-Criminals and Jirokichi removed.

Temporary.

-Irish recovers abduction. (Once he uses it, he can re-use it after 4 phases)

The victims will still be known after he is killed, right?

-Choose costumes upgraded. (Will choose 2 out of 3 costumes to use. Once he used them all, will respawn a night, then be able to choose 2 out 3 again and use them again as well)

A few questions:
When will the costumes be chosen for the first time? During the prep. phase or during night 1? If it is during night 1, it could be relevant for Irish, once he knows what the other BO have. But it would require to make Yukiko a role that other players can not disguise as. (Because of the "KID disguised as Yukiko disguised as Kir" issue)
Also. When will the costumes be "reloaded"? The way you wrote it it sounds like Irish/Yukiko won't be able to disguise during night 4 AND night 5.

-Erasing KID will reveal his disguise. Erasing Yukiko won't reveal her current disguise while being erased.

Yukikos costume will likely have little influence anyway.

-Police changes! (viewtopic.php?p=411850#p411850)

Uhh... really? That's the "even more powerful" police version... Don't like it.

-Tome will be able to S.Investigate AND Investigate on the same Night. [/quote]

Another police boost?

-About James as FBI Leader: Maybe, to avoid him getting too-overpowered, he will receive reports from half of his subordinates? So, if Camel, Jodie, Akai and Kir are in the game, he will receive reports from only 2 of them? (Chosen randomly)

Well, we were still in the process of discussing about him. Are you sure you want to include the new idea in your game?
I mean... nothing will give more insight on how well he plays than an actual game. But it is also the place where the new ability could mess up the game most.
[Try it! Use it! ]

[Kleene Onigiri]

-Tome will be able to S.Investigate AND Investigate on the same Night.

What about Kir and James? :V

-About James as FBI Leader: Maybe, to avoid him getting too-overpowered, he will receive reports from half of his subordinates? So, if Camel, Jodie, Akai and Kir are in the game, he will receive reports from only 2 of them? (Chosen randomly)

I would be for 1 randomly used role (when james still has special investigate or some sort of investigate). Tho randomly having 2 is good too.

Will he still get to know how many subordinates are around? If yes, will he also know if Kir is in the game too then? (in the number of subordinates I mean)

[Conia]

Changes from Round 19:
-Criminals and Jirokichi removed.

Temporary.

Still waiting for an upgrade for him

-Irish recovers abduction. (Once he uses it, he can re-use it after 4 phases)

The victims will still be known after he is killed, right?

Actually, to avoid sooo much info releasing if he's killed after, let's say, Day 5, meaning 3 abductions, I was thinking of revealing only his last abduction when killed. What do you think?

-Choose costumes upgraded. (Will choose 2 out of 3 costumes to use. Once he used them all, will respawn a night, then be able to choose 2 out 3 again and use them again as well)

A few questions:
When will the costumes be chosen for the first time? During the prep. phase or during night 1? If it is during night 1, it could be relevant for Irish, once he knows what the other BO have. But it would require to make Yukiko a role that other players can not disguise as. (Because of the "KID disguised as Yukiko disguised as Kir" issue)
Also. When will the costumes be "reloaded"? The way you wrote it it sounds like Irish/Yukiko won't be able to disguise during night 4 AND night 5.

During Prep.Phase.
Also, let's say Irish uses his first costume on Night 1 and his last costume on Night 2: He will respawn for Night 3, and during Day 3 he can choose costumes again.

-Police changes! (viewtopic.php?p=411850#p411850)

Uhh... really? That's the "even more powerful" police version... Don't like it.

-Tome will be able to S.Investigate AND Investigate on the same Night.

Another police boost?

It is a tiny boost for Tome. And I like Kleene's suggestion. Since this makes Police stronger, I'll have to balance them well then

-About James as FBI Leader: Maybe, to avoid him getting too-overpowered, he will receive reports from half of his subordinates? So, if Camel, Jodie, Akai and Kir are in the game, he will receive reports from only 2 of them? (Chosen randomly)

Well, we were still in the process of discussing about him. Are you sure you want to include the new idea in your game?
I mean... nothing will give more insight on how well he plays than an actual game. But it is also the place where the new ability could mess up the game most.
[Try it! Use it! ]

I liked it enough to try it out

-Tome will be able to S.Investigate AND Investigate on the same Night.

What about Kir and James? :V

-About James as FBI Leader: Maybe, to avoid him getting too-overpowered, he will receive reports from half of his subordinates? So, if Camel, Jodie, Akai and Kir are in the game, he will receive reports from only 2 of them? (Chosen randomly)

I would be for 1 randomly used role (when james still has special investigate or some sort of investigate). Tho randomly having 2 is good too.

Will he still get to know how many subordinates are around? If yes, will he also know if Kir is in the game too then? (in the number of subordinates I mean)

No normal investigation for Kir and James.

If I understood correctly, you're saying 1 chosen randomly instead of half?

Yes, and yes.

[Abs.]

Don't get me wrong, I love the discussions going on in here, because often you folks think of things the GM doesn't think of but realizes they are great ideas, but...

I can't help but laugh when people say, "Look at round X when Y was implemented, it was horrible!" because it could have very well turned out the opposite if any of the factors G, N, F, U, and T were in play.  There is a heavy element of randomness in these games

[Yurikochan]

The whole point of mafia is for the randomness.

*remembers playing Cry Wolf* The basic beginning of the game, and how it upgraded.

The whole point of mafia is the sudden surprise. Though I still think a way to prove the DB would be excellent.

[Abs.]

The whole point of mafia is the sudden surprise. Though I still think a way to prove the DB would be excellent.

Observe = Child/ Interrogate = Not BO/ Follow = No scent isn't enough for you?

[PT]

Though I still think a way to prove the DB would be excellent.

Why would you need to prove a DB? I totally believe someone when they come out and tell me they're a DB.

[Schillok]

Changes from Round 19:
-Criminals and Jirokichi removed.

Temporary.

Still waiting for an upgrade for him

Well, I wasn't able to test him during Round 18 (Thanks, XCommando...  ) and he was not in Round 19. So right now I feel like he should be used in a game the way he is now before we start changing him around. If you don't want to do that in your round, then during a later one for sure...

-Irish recovers abduction. (Once he uses it, he can re-use it after 4 phases)

The victims will still be known after he is killed, right?

Actually, to avoid sooo much info releasing if he's killed after, let's say, Day 5, meaning 3 abductions, I was thinking of revealing only his last abduction when killed. What do you think?

Well, I don't really see a reason for him to do more abductions after his first victim. But if he wants to abduct more he should face the consequences - meaning the town will learn more roles once they get him. Though, when he is arrested the abducted ones remain unknown, just like before.
Of course that would require to make abduct optional.

-Choose costumes upgraded. (Will choose 2 out of 3 costumes to use. Once he used them all, will respawn a night, then be able to choose 2 out 3 again and use them again as well)

A few questions:
When will the costumes be chosen for the first time? During the prep. phase or during night 1? If it is during night 1, it could be relevant for Irish, once he knows what the other BO have. But it would require to make Yukiko a role that other players can not disguise as. (Because of the "KID disguised as Yukiko disguised as Kir" issue)
Also. When will the costumes be "reloaded"? The way you wrote it it sounds like Irish/Yukiko won't be able to disguise during night 4 AND night 5.

During Prep.Phase.
Also, let's say Irish uses his first costume on Night 1 and his last costume on Night 2: He will respawn for Night 3, and during Day 3 he can choose costumes again.

First, Irish (and Yukiko) have to choose which costume to wear during the day so far. So since there was no day before night 1, they are always without a disguise at that point. (Irish will abduct someone at that point now.) So the earliest time for them to have used up their costumes would be night 3.
And I still didn't understand WHEN he will pick the second batch of costumes. During the Day? (Day 4 in most cases?)
If during the day: Will they be able to select a costume to wear right for the next night (Night 5), or will they have to wait yet another night before they can put it on during Day 5 to use the ability during Night 6?

-Police changes! (viewtopic.php?p=411850#p411850)

Uhh... really? That's the "even more powerful" police version... Don't like it.

-Tome will be able to S.Investigate AND Investigate on the same Night.

Another police boost?

It is a tiny boost for Tome. And I like Kleene's suggestion. Since this makes Police stronger, I'll have to balance them well then

Not sure how you plan to balance them. I guess by just making sure there are not 4+1 of them in the game again?
Also, Kleene did not suggest to give both to Tome, just to Kir and James. I think we had agreed that there is no need to improve Tome anymore.

-About James as FBI Leader: Maybe, to avoid him getting too-overpowered, he will receive reports from half of his subordinates? So, if Camel, Jodie, Akai and Kir are in the game, he will receive reports from only 2 of them? (Chosen randomly)

Well, we were still in the process of discussing about him. Are you sure you want to include the new idea in your game?
I mean... nothing will give more insight on how well he plays than an actual game. But it is also the place where the new ability could mess up the game most.
[Try it! Use it! ]

I liked it enough to try it out

Well, "half" sounds somehow decent, but I think it would be better if it was "exactly 2 reports" instead, like Kleene suggested. Of course that is only true as long as there are at least 2 FBI/CIA still in the game.
And it does not fix the "Akai investigates players doing something to himself" (which Akonyl described) completely. It would just depend on luck if James receives these results and can figure out who Akai is quickly, or if he does not receive them.
Or did you decide for giving him another ability now so he really will only get 1 (or half) of the reports?

Also, what about Kir?

[xpon]

i'm sure yuriko want to made the DB became more useful to townie...

[Yurikochan]

i'm sure yuriko want to made the DB became more useful to townie...

Yeah instead of begging people for their roles. And then being called our as Anokata. eespecially by one who COULD prove you and didn't try the night before.

*agrees with PT*

[pofa]

i'm sure yuriko want to made the DB became more useful to townie...

Yeah instead of begging people for their roles. And then being called our as Anokata. eespecially by one who COULD prove you and didn't try the night before.

*agrees with PT*

They're so strong already. :l

Though as somebody else said, it might be more fun to play them if they had individual abilities, maybe ones that they could use instead of Identify if they wanted. Though that might make them even stronger.

[PT]

Giving them individual abilities seems like it kind of ruins the point of them being a group, at least to me. With the right information, they have the ability to prove someone's role completely and they have an ally from the beginning, plus if one of them is Frightened, and more than one is alive, there's only a partial chance of failure. That's pretty strong, imo, even if it doesn't always seem like it when you're playing as them. It's not as easy to prove them if you don't have the right allies, but making them easier to prove would make them stronger than they already are.

[Akonyl]

The fact remains that the BO can't win as long as there is a police is in the game. Even if they already outnumber the town, a single police can still turn around the game.

In the worst case, a single police (like Megure) could win alone again 3 BO.
During the night, house-search the one trying to kill him (Yeah, requires a bit luck: 1/3 chance unless he has knowledge about who of them is still allowed to kill). During the day, house-search the second one, tie the vote. During the next night, house-search the remaining one, preventing him from killing you and win the game.

So it is not just about the numbers of arrests each game. And also: The single arrest during Round 17 was enough to turn what seemed like a victory for the BO into a win for the town right away. So arrests are really powerful.
Yeah, I still like it being in the game. For exactly since it allows to turn games around, just like a good day of APTXs allows it for the BO. But at the same point we should keep an eye on the rest of the abilities of the police...

You can only house search during the night phase, but ignoring that, yes, you're correct. If the stars aligned, Megure could win the game by himself. This does not mean that he should be balanced for what he may do once in a blue moon, because as Abs pointed out the games themselves are random and more likely than not, he's not gonna be doing a whole lot. And after the first one is arrested, why aren't the other two thinking "oh geez we should poison him as megure/shiratori"? Yes, anyone can look awesome when you paint them in conflict with faceless drones.

Because of one game where it was used it's really powerful? What if the game had been turned around because the target was healed, or the killer was discombobbed, or they attacked a foreigner, or the target was first aided, protected, etc, keeping the town able to lynch BOs via majority? What if a single BO avoided detection for a few phases and managed to win, does that make them suddenly really powerful as well?

Sometimes abilities have an impact at the end, but that's not just for arrests.


As to Conia's take on the police:
I am fine with you using the linked post (Kleene's post), as even if it's a "buffed" police roster, the only one I see buffed is Yumi being given Investigate 3, which really isn't a big deal. What I do not agree with is giving Tome Special + Normal investigate in the same round.

Keep in mind, the change where Special Investigate can only be used on past actions was introduced into the game specifically to allow Tome entrance to the game, as otherwise he would overshadow James Black and Kir too much, as he has it along with Arrest. Even if he had the old special investigate, that's the equivalent of "Special OR Normal investigate" now, not both at the same time, which puts him back into "Let's laugh at James Black" territory.

I already said that Tome has the potential to be one of the most powerful police as-is, I don't really think he needs a buff at all yet.