Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

I'd comment, but I can't yet :V

[Kleene Onigiri]

Yeah.. but at least my round prove that player divided by 4 is not disaster!!!!

just 1 disaster at a time please :x

[xpon]

ha ha ha....

[Schillok]

So... now that the previous game ended and right before the new one starts we have time to talk about some things from last round...

I bet Akonyl wanted to say something about the lovers. And so will I, I guess.

[Schillok]

So.. let's talk about the changes of last round.

- Dream (will Contains 1 or 2 True Hint! the rest of the hint will be a fake ones)
I still don't like dreams. It is random who gets them and their usefulness is very random as well.

And... well, I don't know how much the other players had noticed it, but there were a lot of hints and comments from the GM being released. In the beginning the BO got quite lot of information they shouldn't have had otherwise - for example that there was no BO-town lover, that there were two tricksters in the game, that Akonyl was also protected somehow during night 1 and so on. And not to forget that two of us would have been exposed during night 2 - and even who would do it. Which made us change who we killed during the night.
But right after day 2 this changes into the complete opposite. We did not get anything for the rest of the game (not even a dream) and from what I noticed the town got a lot information now. Including some non-game related ones like that the BO changed their poison targets during day 3 a few minutes before deadline. Which clearly meant that one of the people online at that time must have been a BO. Again, I don't know know many of the town got something. But from what we learned from townies we were in contact with, it was a lot.

It might have helped to "balance" the game somehow. But I think it was too much of an interference. The town got their lucky punish thwarted by a hint. And the BO - who I would say did a good work, especially in the beginning to get in contact with other players - got punished for playing well by having the GM give the town a lot of hints because of how well the BO played.
There is nothing wrong with getting two BO exposed by bad luck. It happens, there is nothing that can be changed.  But the game should be allowed to continue normally, even if it turns one-sided. And a side doing well shouldn't be punished for their good game.



- BO player is not Player divide by 3 anymore!

Well. 7 would have been too many for sure. Even if we got 2 of them exposed we would still have been in a very comfortable position. 5 was a bit little though. It could have worked if we had decided for what turned out the correct route in the end, but that would have been coincidental. I guess 6 would have worked best. And might have prevented the GM from having to favor a side in the first place.


- BO will get 1-3 roles that is not in the game! at night 1

Actually, I liked this new rule. Knowing 3 roles not in the game was quite useful to get a "disguise" for those of us who tried to sneak into the town. I suggest this can be kept for future games as well.
And no, it was not responsible for any deaths by APTX.


- Ran successfully protect someone at night can made kogoro sober

There was no Kogoro in the game, so this rule did not get applied. However:
I think we should remove it. Because if this rule remains, the GM would need to tell in the thread that Ran protected the night and is now injured. No matter if Kogoro is in the game or not. I think the reason why no one died should remain secret.
Beside - IIRC the original worry of Kleene was "If Ran gets injured than the BO won't kill her so Kogoro doesn't get sobber". My problem is: If the BO knew already who Ran is and she already stopped one of their killings, then they should be allowed to decide if they want to kill her or not (and risk Kogoro getting sobber). If they don't know who Ran is they risk killing the injured player later anyway. And Kogoro gets sobber, just like planed.


- Sniper will only cause temporary injure to the officer who arrest them

Don't like that rule much either. Police are a huge threat to the BO. The BO has no way to get rid of them, except by killing them (which is more or less random) or making them do wrong arrests (which is hard). Their arrest can alter a game greatly, and if they arrest a sniper the town has already gained a huge advantage. Getting the officer injured is okay in that situation I think.


Lovers-Lovey-Dovey

I think this round showed a lot more how powerful this new ability is... And actually, I think it is too powerful.
It took us 1 or 2 GM hints, some information from Akonyl himself, 2 steals, lots of investigations, 1.5 APTX and one failed night killing to get rid of Akonyl and Commi this round. And we wouldn't have been able to get them with much less than that. Now imagine having no clue who the lovers are in the first place...
Protection from killing including sniping OR protection from lynching and APTX is super-strong. Having the normal advantage of the lovers (knowing each others role, allowing to trust them 100% right from the start and being able to combine their abilities) in addition.
And I can only imagine how horrible a "Ran + Araide" lover would have been instead of the Ran + Jodie this round. (Which was bad enough, especially considering they found Haibara during night 1 and had her confirm him during day 1).

On the other extreme: Imagine a BO-lovers. Unlynchable, unless you go for the other one. Everyone is out to lynch Gin? No problem, Vodka will save him, the town wastes a lynching and is no step closer in getting rid of them. Arresting MIGHT help when you know their roles and/or what evil deeds they did, but in that case the other lover survives anyway. The only choice would be to keep the found lover locked by a trickster until the end of the game... (That is, if you can really be sure if the target really was a BO.)
And even if you find the other lover - once you do, they will just protect who you are going after. You would have to decide the vote in secret somehow. One mole amongst the townies and you fail for sure. And even without the chance of really lynching them is only 50%.


I really suggest to change the ability. The protection during the night is fine I guess. The chance to fail a killing against the chance to kill 2 townies. But do they really deserve a protection from snipers? Same with the day ability. Are we sure we want some characters to become that strong?


Maybe it is just the talking of someone who had only be a lover once during all of his games - and died during night 1 in that one - and who probably will not be one often in future games either. But that ability like it is can cause really really unfavorable situations where the other side has to sacrifice too many resources to overcome it. If they even see it coming before it is too late.

[Dus]

There will be no dreams in my round, so no need to discuss that for now.

About lovey-dovey: Yes, it is way too powerful. Maybe give it a 50% chance of succeeding?

[Commi-Ninja]

There will be no dreams in my round, so no need to discuss that for now.

About lovey-dovey: Yes, it is way too powerful. Maybe give it a 50% chance of succeeding?

I agree with that.  It is extremely powerful if used properly (in fact, when Akonyl and I decided on Night One to just protect each other every night, xpon said we were cheating ).  It makes it nearly impossible for the town to win in the case of BO/BO lovers, and Schillok already explained how much work it was to get rid of us as town lovers.

[Kleene Onigiri]

So.. let's talk about the changes of last round.

- Dream (will Contains 1 or 2 True Hint! the rest of the hint will be a fake ones)
I still don't like dreams. It is random who gets them and their usefulness is very random as well.

And... well, I don't know how much the other players had noticed it, but there were a lot of hints and comments from the GM being released. In the beginning the BO got quite lot of information they shouldn't have had otherwise - for example that there was no BO-town lover, that there were two tricksters in the game, that Akonyl was also protected somehow during night 1 and so on. And not to forget that two of us would have been exposed during night 2 - and even who would do it. Which made us change who we killed during the night.
But right after day 2 this changes into the complete opposite. We did not get anything for the rest of the game (not even a dream) and from what I noticed the town got a lot information now. Including some non-game related ones like that the BO changed their poison targets during day 3 a few minutes before deadline. Which clearly meant that one of the people online at that time must have been a BO. Again, I don't know know many of the town got something. But from what we learned from townies we were in contact with, it was a lot.

It might have helped to "balance" the game somehow. But I think it was too much of an interference. The town got their lucky punish thwarted by a hint. And the BO - who I would say did a good work, especially in the beginning to get in contact with other players - got punished for playing well by having the GM give the town a lot of hints because of how well the BO played.
There is nothing wrong with getting two BO exposed by bad luck. It happens, there is nothing that can be changed.  But the game should be allowed to continue normally, even if it turns one-sided. And a side doing well shouldn't be punished for their good game.

This usually depends on the GM.

- BO player is not Player divide by 3 anymore!

Well. 7 would have been too many for sure. Even if we got 2 of them exposed we would still have been in a very comfortable position. 5 was a bit little though. It could have worked if we had decided for what turned out the correct route in the end, but that would have been coincidental. I guess 6 would have worked best. And might have prevented the GM from having to favor a side in the first place.

Now now schillok. First you say as a town, that there were too many BOs. Now as a BO, you say there were not enough?
I think the number was good, just that the hints made it unbalanced.

I didn't get any hint at all, just got confusing statements from the GM.

- BO will get 1-3 roles that is not in the game! at night 1

Actually, I liked this new rule. Knowing 3 roles not in the game was quite useful to get a "disguise" for those of us who tried to sneak into the town. I suggest this can be kept for future games as well.
And no, it was not responsible for any deaths by APTX.

This was usually the abduct ability. So, yeah. No one liked abduct when you can abduct every even number of the night. But you like to have 3 roles given at the beginning. Sometimes I just don't get you guys.

- Ran successfully protect someone at night can made kogoro sober

There was no Kogoro in the game, so this rule did not get applied. However:
I think we should remove it. Because if this rule remains, the GM would need to tell in the thread that Ran protected the night and is now injured. No matter if Kogoro is in the game or not. I think the reason why no one died should remain secret.
Beside - IIRC the original worry of Kleene was "If Ran gets injured than the BO won't kill her so Kogoro doesn't get sobber". My problem is: If the BO knew already who Ran is and she already stopped one of their killings, then they should be allowed to decide if they want to kill her or not (and risk Kogoro getting sobber). If they don't know who Ran is they risk killing the injured player later anyway. And Kogoro gets sobber, just like planed.

I don't see why it needs to be told that Kogoro is sober/Ran got injured. Just Kogoro will know it because he'll get a note of getting sober. The phase change will say that no one died, without explaining why.
It was done in order to make Ran, who is pretty useless, more useful.

- Sniper will only cause temporary injure to the officer who arrest them

Don't like that rule much either. Police are a huge threat to the BO. The BO has no way to get rid of them, except by killing them (which is more or less random) or making them do wrong arrests (which is hard). Their arrest can alter a game greatly, and if they arrest a sniper the town has already gained a huge advantage. Getting the officer injured is okay in that situation I think.

But making the  snipers injuring the police 100% and injuring people when lynched makes them too strong.
The other suggestion was to just injure house search using police officers. If arrested normally, it's not working (and normal arrest is less likely than house search. House search also just works if the player made a crime).
I don't have anything against the current rule

Lovers-Lovey-Dovey

I think this round showed a lot more how powerful this new ability is... And actually, I think it is too powerful.
It took us 1 or 2 GM hints, some information from Akonyl himself, 2 steals, lots of investigations, 1.5 APTX and one failed night killing to get rid of Akonyl and Commi this round. And we wouldn't have been able to get them with much less than that. Now imagine having no clue who the lovers are in the first place...
Protection from killing including sniping OR protection from lynching and APTX is super-strong. Having the normal advantage of the lovers (knowing each others role, allowing to trust them 100% right from the start and being able to combine their abilities) in addition.
And I can only imagine how horrible a "Ran + Araide" lover would have been instead of the Ran + Jodie this round. (Which was bad enough, especially considering they found Haibara during night 1 and had her confirm him during day 1).

On the other extreme: Imagine a BO-lovers. Unlynchable, unless you go for the other one. Everyone is out to lynch Gin? No problem, Vodka will save him, the town wastes a lynching and is no step closer in getting rid of them. Arresting MIGHT help when you know their roles and/or what evil deeds they did, but in that case the other lover survives anyway. The only choice would be to keep the found lover locked by a trickster until the end of the game... (That is, if you can really be sure if the target really was a BO.)
And even if you find the other lover - once you do, they will just protect who you are going after. You would have to decide the vote in secret somehow. One mole amongst the townies and you fail for sure. And even without the chance of really lynching them is only 50%.


I really suggest to change the ability. The protection during the night is fine I guess. The chance to fail a killing against the chance to kill 2 townies. But do they really deserve a protection from snipers? Same with the day ability. Are we sure we want some characters to become that strong?


Maybe it is just the talking of someone who had only be a lover once during all of his games - and died during night 1 in that one - and who probably will not be one often in future games either. But that ability like it is can cause really really unfavorable situations where the other side has to sacrifice too many resources to overcome it. If they even see it coming before it is too late.

First people complain about lovers being too vulnerable. Now this.

I don't think it's too strong. Sonoko can allie someone great, like Haibara. Just because it was Ran x Jodie doesn't mean it's too powerful. It can always be tricked.
More problematic could be BO/BO lovers. But that can be solved, in case there will be a town role with frighten. Or making BO/BO lovey-dovey a crime, meaning you can arrest them for protecting each other.

[PT]

It just took us a little manipulation to get rid of KainxEdo in Round 16. I don't think Lovey-Dovey is too powerful, you just have to know what you're doing. Especially since most of the time, it's not gonna be a lover pair with a protector. That's what made Commi and Akonyl so difficult to get rid of, not the ability itself.

[Eve]

@ People who complained about Lovers being too powerful V:

They are not, seriously..... Maybe some more guidelines on lovers but I think Lovey Dovey is alright , it's not like they can protect EVERY phase

@ kleene Now why would protecting someone you love counted as a crime? BO or not, Love is not a Crime!
maybe adding a clause of Once protecting is successful preventing death, the one who did the protecting will be injured for ANY PAIR though

@ People who complained about number of BO Vs. town

The Normal distribution of about 1/3 is alright, but all depends on BO and their decisions too, Don't look at loses as "b/c this rule that I lost "

[Schillok]

There will be no dreams in my round, so no need to discuss that for now.

About lovey-dovey: Yes, it is way too powerful. Maybe give it a 50% chance of succeeding?

Nah, I don't like "chance" succeedings.
Getting a random item from stealing is bad enough sometimes (especially if you hope for "anything but that item"), but at least you get an item all the time. That is what you plan for, maybe you get lucky, maybe not.
But it is completely different if an ability only depends on luck if it works in the first place.

I am glad you agree on changing it though. There needs to be some limit. Allowing it to be use only once during a game would make it to weak for town-lovers. Allowing it to be used 2 times during a game would make it too strong for BO lovers already. So there is no way in changing it in that aspect.

Maybe allow the ability to prevent a cause of death only once? Allowing it to use it until it was needed and then disallow it to be used for the rest of the game?
Or like I suggested, removing some of the things it protects against.


It is true - being lovers before is more of a liability (especially for BO) to the lovers. Having something to help them survive a bit is good. But the way they were last game is a bit over-the-top.

[Akonyl]

What I was gonna say wasn't actually about the lovers, but I'll talk about it anyway. :V

Lovey-Dovey, itself, I don't think is actually particularly overpowered. However, when one of the lovers is a protector/healer, then yes, it's ridiculously strong. Had I not been a protector, you would have had a 50/50 chance every night to kill 2 people, which averages out to the 1 kill a night average, which makes it perfectly balanced, imo. However, it doesn't make much sense to only reduce the effectiveness if one of the lovers is a protector (because that's punishing a protector for being one), so  I'm not sure exactly how to handle that.

The other large large problem I see with lovey-dovey is BO/BO lovers. As they don't have to worry about getting killed in the night / APTX (from anyone except BO/town lovers, which are less likely because they themselves are lovers), they can save lovey dovey for lynchings all the time and you can only get rid of them via arrests, or secretly lynching them so they can't lovey-dovey in advance (and even then they might randomly protect themselves anyway).

Lovey-Dovey's purpose was to make it possible for a BO/town lover pair to more easily win the game. So perhaps, Lovey-Dovey could be kept as-is for BO/town pairs, as-is for town/town pairs (except they only have X uses, maybe 3) and 1 use for BO/BO pairs? Though actually, a BO/BO pair is pretty useful for selecting a leader, until they get killed. :V


What I actually wanted to say:

Up until the end of the round, I had this nagging feeling in the back of my head of "man, I feel really bad for kogoro...", and I think he should be changed, to have the text "If Kogoro is still drunk, he will become sober at the start of Night 4, because he runs out of booze". I think that the whole sobering-up mechanic is good, but I really don't think things like Round 13 should happen, where Kogoro's drunk for ~20 phases, being an entirely useless townie. I think a maximum of 3 days/ 3 nights of uselessness is good enough for him to be balanced out with gaining the analyze ability.

[Dus]

The change about Kogoro is being implemented as we speak, but I still haven't reached a decision on lovey-dovey.

[Kleene Onigiri]

@ People who complained about Lovers being too powerful V:

They are not, seriously..... Maybe some more guidelines on lovers but I think Lovey Dovey is alright , it's not like they can protect EVERY phase

@ kleene Now why would protecting someone you love counted as a crime? BO or not, Love is not a Crime!
maybe adding a clause of Once protecting is successful preventing death, the one who did the protecting will be injured for ANY PAIR though

Well, just for BO/BO lover pair. Because they are in the organization. The way they protected each other (especially since they would protect themselves against innocent townies) can be considered a crime, since they can use a harder method to protect each other :x (like drugging the townies so they don't get "caught")

But since no one listens anyway I'll stop being annoying now

[Eve]

@ People who complained about Lovers being too powerful V:

They are not, seriously..... Maybe some more guidelines on lovers but I think Lovey Dovey is alright , it's not like they can protect EVERY phase

@ kleene Now why would protecting someone you love counted as a crime? BO or not, Love is not a Crime!
maybe adding a clause of Once protecting is successful preventing death, the one who did the protecting will be injured for ANY PAIR though

Well, just for BO/BO lover pair. Because they are in the organization. The way they protected each other (especially since they would protect themselves against innocent townies) can be considered a crime, since they can use a harder method to protect each other :x (like drugging the townies so they don't get "caught")

But since no one listens anyway I'll stop being annoying now

Maybe we should just go with Bo/Town ONLY ability like Akonly said

XD You're not annoying Kleene LOL, nothing's wrong with making sure the game is fair