Mafia Round 17: Intruder Alert! (Town get lucky!)

[Kleene Onigiri]

Wait, shouldn't we get to see the rules first before signing up ?

^ this

Also, there was never a rule of BO = 1/3 the player. Also LAST GAME there were 7 BOs! GET THAT RIGHT!


And the APTX rules is stupid.

[Abs.]

Kleene's sore because some certain people kept saying that her round was unbalanced.  It's not a numbers game, people!  And stop making Kleene mad! 

Anyhow, I do not see how the APTX rules are stupid, since they are gonna work the same way they have worked in the past, but I do believe there would be more pills now (vs. 1/3 town)

[Kleene Onigiri]

Kleene's sore because some certain people kept saying that her round was unbalanced.  It's not a numbers game, people!  And stop making Kleene mad! 

Anyhow, I do not see how the APTX rules are stupid, since they are gonna work the same way they have worked in the past, but I do believe there would be more pills now (vs. 1/3 town)

You can see it with the last game. They had 3 APTX and get them back every time they killed one successful.

Now, with 24 players and 8 BOs (which of one was a lover :x) you'll get 5 APTX (old rule with 1/3 townies). And after day 3, the BO already used 5 APTX successfully. Meaning, the town would know they used all APTX already (or have maybe one left). This would lead into the "Old game stlye", where every townie tells his/her role. Even if 1 get's APTXed, this way the BO can't claim a role and will be figured out on Night 4. Since the ones not saying a role or not saying much, is probably BO then.

With 5-6 APTX, the BO can be 5-6 times wrong. With just 3, they can just be 3x wrong.
But, in case the BO is playing good and get's a lot of information, the BO can use more than 3 APTX.
Also, when they have 3 APTX, even if they are 2x wrong, the town won't go around telling their roles, because they all can still be successfully APTXed.

Also, the 3 APTX rule was made so people don't claim their roles randomly and get APTXed in order to reduce the APTX number. I don't think it's the sense of the game to get killed. But instead, claim a role and try to get the APTX reduced by manipulating the BO. Since the BO is also trying to manipulate the town into revealing their true roles.

[Schillok]

Also, there was never a rule of BO = 1/3 the player. Also LAST GAME there were 7 BOs! GET THAT RIGHT!

GM: Captain Kleene Onigiri

Players:

Alive:
04: PhoenixTears (Pisco)
06: Akonyl (Calvados)
15: Parkur (Vermouth/James)
18: nomemory (Tequila)
19: Sherlock3 (Anokata)
24: Dus(Gin) - Day 3
09: Edogawa4869(Akemi) - Day 3 /APTX
02. pofa (Korn) - Night 3

I still count 8.  :-\

And no, there is no rule about BO = 1/3 the player. Still, we have quite a lot of experience from all the games we had already. And I thought we agreed that 1/3 of the players being BO was too much in past games. Yet, in your last game you had 8 VS 16. (Ignore the lovers, you can't know about them beforehand.) In Round 12 (the one Grawwlbear GMed) we had 7 VS 17, and yet - despite two lucky arrests - the BO still won. Actually, in the past 5 games the BO won 4 times. What did you expect when making the BO even stronger AND giving them more members than in the previous games?
I had to listen to the (justified) criticism of the BO members during my round (14) how the PO were unfair for them. And I learned from them. But now I also want you to listen to what I have to say. To make future GMs think about the distribution of the players a bit more.

Kleene's sore because some certain people kept saying that her round was unbalanced.  It's not a numbers game, people!  And stop making Kleene mad!  

But numbers decide a lot in this game. One single BO more or less can change a lot in this game. It soon reaches a point where it becomes almost impossible for a side to win unless they have a lot of luck.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Also, there was never a rule of BO = 1/3 the player. Also LAST GAME there were 7 BOs! GET THAT RIGHT!

GM: Captain Kleene Onigiri

Players:

Alive:
04: PhoenixTears (Pisco)
06: Akonyl (Calvados)
15: Parkur (Vermouth/James)
18: nomemory (Tequila)
19: Sherlock3 (Anokata)
24: Dus(Gin) - Day 3
09: Edogawa4869(Akemi) - Day 3 /APTX
02. pofa (Korn) - Night 3

I still count 8. 

And no, there is no rule about BO = 1/3 the player. Still, we have quite a lot of experience from all the games we had already. And I thought we agreed that 1/3 of the players being BO was too much in past games. Yet, in your last game you had 8 VS 16. (Ignore the lovers, you can't know about them beforehand.) In Round 12 (the one Grawwlbear GMed) we had 7 VS 17, and yet - despite two lucky arrests - the BO still won. Actually, in the past 5 games the BO won 4 times. What did you expect when making the BO even stronger AND giving them more members than in the previous games?
I had to listen to the (justified) criticism of the BO members during my round (14) how the PO were unfair for them. And I learned from them. But now I also want you to listen to what I have to say. To make future GMs think about the distribution of the players a bit more.

Kleene's sore because some certain people kept saying that her round was unbalanced.  It's not a numbers game, people!  And stop making Kleene mad! 

But numbers decide a lot in this game. One single BO more or less can change a lot in this game. It soon reaches a point where it becomes almost impossible for a side to win unless they have a lot of luck.

FACT IS, I DID KNOW BEFOREHAND.
Since Dus was added on night 1, I already knew the lovers!

And without dus, there would be 7BOs with 1 lover. (meaning there are actually 6 real BOs)
With considering, that the lovers were akemi+Eisuke, a VERY Powerful combo! + 3 interrogators in which 1 was already sobber, adding Dus as Gin wasn't a big deal. It actually balanced it more than giving Dus a town role.

BUT FIRST, I'd like to actually post the actions etc. But noooo~, you prefer to state something without looking at it as a whole. You just look at some certain aspects, not the whole situation that was at the beginning. Once the game starts completely, the GM can't manipulate the players much into killing certain people or not.

Like you see, I didn't think about who to add and who not. Kogoro being sobber from beginning is rare, and makes him pretty powerful (breva actually found a lot of BOs)
You also knew Gin was there from night 1, but you don't thought that info is valuable at all.
As a GM , I can't predict the future. Meaning I won't know who will be active, who will reveal stuff and who the BO decides to kill etc. I can just make it balanced at the beginning. And I actually did make it balanced. Even with "8 BOs", tho it were actually 7 +1 strong traitor.

I even broke some rules in favor of the town actually. So yeah..

[xpon]

Wait, shouldn't we get to see the rules first before signing up ?

^ this

i think i already put all the roles in page 1..... 

---

and guys... the main reason why i want to reduce the number of BO is so we will have harder / longer time to reach the winning point.

with 8 BO vs 17 Townie, maybe 2 Bo killed.. the BO just need to kill 11 townie and leave 6 of them and win.
ex:
night 1 = 1 town killed
day 1 = 1 town lynched
night 2 = town 1 killed
day 2 = 1 bo lynched
night 3 = 1 town killed
day 3 = lynching tied but 2 aptx
night 4 = 1 town killed
day 4 = lynched 1 town 1 aptx
night 5 = kill lover = BO win!

this is quite normal scenario! with luck.. the BO can get more APTX, and the Town can get more BO.. but with this.. the game will over in 9 days.

but if the BO is only 6 then the game will go for at least 4 more phase!

and i never want to be a round that will followed by the next GM. i just want to have 1 fun round! a round where the BO is forced to infiltrate the town pact! and casting lies. (bty using blames, slander and others)

---

FACT IS, I DID KNOW BEFOREHAND.
Since Dus was added on night 1, I already knew the lovers!

And without dus, there would be 7BOs with 1 lover. (meaning there are actually 6 real BOs)
With considering, that the lovers were akemi+Eisuke, a VERY Powerful combo! + 3 interrogators in which 1 was already sobber, adding Dus as Gin wasn't a big deal. It actually balanced it more than giving Dus a town role.

BUT FIRST, I'd like to actually post the actions etc. But noooo~, you prefer to state something without looking at it as a whole. You just look at some certain aspects, not the whole situation that was at the beginning. Once the game starts completely, the GM can't manipulate the players much into killing certain people or not.

Like you see, I didn't think about who to add and who not. Kogoro being sobber from beginning is rare, and makes him pretty powerful (breva actually found a lot of BOs)
You also knew Gin was there from night 1, but you don't thought that info is valuable at all.
As a GM , I can't predict the future. Meaning I won't know who will be active, who will reveal stuff and who the BO decides to kill etc. I can just make it balanced at the beginning. And I actually did make it balanced. Even with "8 BOs", tho it were actually 7 +1 strong traitor.

I even broke some rules in favor of the town actually. So yeah..

Kleene.. i completely agree with you when you add dus as BO. Eisuke and akemi is powerful combination! and kogoro is the best detective if she allowed to live! (even gin slanders will became useless) 

and this is why i kinda offended when you angry to me... i never critic your games of how many bo player you gave. my purpose is not based on your round but i have my own Reasoning!

[Abs.]

How the BO could have lost Round 16: Switch any of the BO with Abs.  Case closed  :-*

[xpon]

I think i already pass you as a bad luck jinx Abs. i never won if i played.. the time when i won is when i die earlier or being passive

[Schillok]

FACT IS, I DID KNOW BEFOREHAND.
Since Dus was added on night 1, I already knew the lovers!

I know. But would you have made him a BO if you didn't knew the lovers already? If he weren't late and you set up the game normally?

And without dus, there would be 7BOs with 1 lover. (meaning there are actually 6 real BOs)
With considering, that the lovers were akemi+Eisuke, a VERY Powerful combo! + 3 interrogators in which 1 was already sobber, adding Dus as Gin wasn't a big deal. It actually balanced it more than giving Dus a town role.

Akemi still is a BO member. Especially in the beginning she (and secretly her lover as well) would have to work with the BO together to make sure the town does not get an early lead.
I agree the pairing is powerful (and quite interesting  ;D) - but also a huge danger to the town. So saying it is just as much a disadvantage to the town as it is to the BO.

BUT FIRST, I'd like to actually post the actions etc. But noooo~, you prefer to state something without looking at it as a whole. You just look at some certain aspects, not the whole situation that was at the beginning. Once the game starts completely, the GM can't manipulate the players much into killing certain people or not.

Sorry about that. Maybe the detailed actions will prove me wrong.
Just, when looking at the game at a whole without going into details I see the following facts: 8 BO VS 16 townies; BO wins by day 4.

Like you see, I didn't think about who to add and who not. Kogoro being sobber from beginning is rare, and makes him pretty powerful (breva actually found a lot of BOs)

One being actually a townie, sealing the game.  ::)
And that was another problem with Dus being late to the game: You couldn't make him Conan, Shinichi, Eri or Ran. If he were on time and a townie chances are Kogoro would actually have been drunk.

You also knew Gin was there from night 1, but you don't thought that info is valuable at all.

I am not sure how I should have used this information any better. I could not tell anyone else about it since it would reveal that I am Kir or Okina. I only knew that at least 2 players would be slandered each night and that interrogation results are less reliable.

As a GM , I can't predict the future. Meaning I won't know who will be active, who will reveal stuff and who the BO decides to kill etc. I can just make it balanced at the beginning. And I actually did make it balanced. Even with "8 BOs", tho it were actually 7 +1 strong traitor.

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out: Was it balanced?

I even broke some rules in favor of the town actually. So yeah..

I know about giving me the number of FBI since the Dus entered the game and you already told me there are 7 BO in the game before. And of course not editing the lovers wills during day 3. Maybe there was more I don't know about yet though.

[Dus]

Letting me join late posed some problems for the GM, but I don't think it could have been solved much better. Maybe give them another sniper instead, but Kleene actually used my late arrival to improve the balancing.
And lovers aren't really an advantage to the BO, since Eisuke can easily discombobulate the BO but getting the townies' actions and prevent them is much more difficult. And generally, BO/town lovers don't count for either side, since their goal is to prolong the game as long as possible.

If breva had lived just one more day then she would have found out that DT was slandered as well. And the town's lynching vote wasn't that smart overall.

[Schillok]

Letting me join late posed some problems for the GM, but I don't think it could have been solved much better. Maybe give them another sniper instead, but Kleene actually used my late arrival to improve the balancing.
And lovers aren't really an advantage to the BO, since Eisuke can easily discombobulate the BO but getting the townies' actions and prevent them is much more difficult. And generally, BO/town lovers don't count for either side, since their goal is to prolong the game as long as possible.

Actually, I have gotten to the same conclusion - you joining after the game begun is the major factor that made the last round go astray. The round was (IMO) much more balanced before you joined. Kleene then compensated the loss of the BO because of their lover - but was unable to compensate for the town who of course also suffered from the loss. And even if Eisuke has a hard time fighting against the town, Akemi is very good in doing so when she cooperates with the BO (and also to keep up her cover).
It is not your fault of course (well aside from being late). That situation was probably hard to balance anyway. But the result of you becoming BO had a huge impact on the game.

If breva had lived just one more day then she would have found out that DT was slandered as well. And the town's lynching vote wasn't that smart overall.

The question is, how could she have done so... I don't know how exactly she was poisoned, but to publish her results she had to reveal quite a lot about herself.
The lynching... yeah, in hindsight it was dumb. But we had no way of knowing if the lovers were talking the truth (or just trying to end the game even quicker) and Breva was a confirmed townie at that time. So it was easy to fall for your suggestion of killing DT (who did not defend himself IIRC).
No, at that point the game was pretty much decided already. The final mislynch only accelerated the end.

Again: The BO played well (hard to judge from my position how well) and the town was to lax with keeping their roles secret so they deserved to win. But I feel like we never had a chance to win ourselves, except with a lot of luck and some serious BO mess-ups.

[Edogawa4869]

[quote author=Schillok link=topic=4808.msg316406#msg316406 date=1288878927

And without dus, there would be 7BOs with 1 lover. (meaning there are actually 6 real BOs)
With considering, that the lovers were akemi+Eisuke, a VERY Powerful combo! + 3 interrogators in which 1 was already sobber, adding Dus as Gin wasn't a big deal. It actually balanced it more than giving Dus a town role.

Akemi still is a BO member. Especially in the beginning she (and secretly her lover as well) would have to work with the BO together to make sure the town does not get an early lead.
I agree the pairing is powerful (and quite interesting  ) - but also a huge danger to the town. So saying it is just as much a disadvantage to the town as it is to the BO.
[/quote]
.... So, if we were really that powerful, we technically botched that game? D:  ..... I blame xpon.

[xpon]

so it on me then... just F*cking kill me then!
but not this round. because i am the GM!!!!!!!!!!

[PT]

I really don't think the Round 17 thread is the place to be airing out your problems with Round 16.

[Edogawa4869]

so it on me then... just F*cking kill me then!
but not this round. because i am the GM!!!!!!!!!!

xpon, calm down...  But seriously, you did reveal your choices which got them suspicious of me and then had them poison me....   I'm not happy about it, but hey, it's a game.  These things happen. :V