BO or Kira?

[Introuble]

but don't you think L shares those same abilities?  In Death Note canon, he was the greatest detective in the world.  It's not completely unreasonable that L could have pulled the same actions that Gin does.

Yes, but not in the way the BO has them.
There are two people with a gun. Your average policeman and robber. The average policeman can only shoot for certain reasons. His role is to protect the community from criminals and thus, he cannot do as he pleases. Since, he is a good person and wishes for the best of the community. The robber on the other hand, is a foul person with different ideals. He could do whatever he wants. He could shoot a person, rob a bank, start a hostage, steal a car. Despite these two people having the same weapons. The robber can do sooo much more. Making him faaaar more dangerous. He doesn't care if someone gets shot, to hell with them. While the police on the hand, has restrictions and boundaries which he cannot cross. Your average policeman can't rob a bank or steal a car. During hostage situations, he can't shoot the robber but the robber could shoot him as much as he wants. You see my point? But wait, there's more...

No face. No name (Shinichi just calls them "the Organization"). Unknown members. Unknown goals.

True.

Have a lot of connections and influences in hollywood, the media, the goverment, the police, the FBI, etc).

Nope, L does not have connections in all these places. Sure, he may have a lot, but they surely aren't as strong as those in the BO. Besides, remember that robber-policeman description I wrote above? Yeah, add that. L's connections in a few of these areas such as Hollywood, media, goverment are NO WHERE close to being as strong as those of the Organization. If L has connections though hollywood/media for "befriend-this-person-or-tell-me-things-about-him/her purposes. These connections are no where close to the Organization's: "kill this person - kill him and take over his identity- tell us about him-befriend him/spy on him - give us details on the people you interviewed/other extra information the media have - tell him to go to this place so we could kill him (this list could go on forever) - purposes. And even if L has some of these connections such as "interviewed/other extra information the media have", they obviously aren't as powerful as the Organization." Don't forget that, not only do the BO have connections to regular people but also to the tops of the tops. They have connections to exectutives, popular actors,etc. While L probably only has connections to lower people who provide information. Not to mention, several people are also under the Organization's control. Not only do they have connections to exectutives and Actors. But they also control Executives and actors.

Control a lot of wealthy/influential people.

The BO control much more wealthy/influential people. Unlike L who only has connections. The Black Organization also CONTROL people. Not only do they control a lot of people just because they are members of the Organization but they also control people via blackmail and bribery. Don't forget the good cop - bad cop description.

Control a number of highly trained killers

Seriously, Wendy and Aiber? I know there are probably more but seriously, L doesn't control these type of people. Sure, he may get a couple but these numbers only add up to a handful. Detectives don't really control a lot of highly trained killers since they don't really need them. The Organization have SEVERAL other people like Wendy and Aiber. The Organization have SEVERAL other people who are much more dangerous than Wendy and Aiber in the many different areas. You have snipers, assassins, cold blooded killers, super sleuths, highly trained informats  and much more.

Unknown goal however, it seems to something dangerous especially since one of their projects was said to "set the fate for all of humanity"

L doesn't have this.

By having several members planted in different places, companies and organizations. The Organization could use these positions in order to complete tasks such as assassinations, information gathering, etc.

L does not have this.

They also own several companies, companies which are headed by their members, to be exact

L does not have this.

They have been successful in persuading several influential people to their side.

a) The Organization CONTROL these people.
b) HIGHLY INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE.
c) Good cop-robber description.

Use advanced technology.

Technology that world has not even seen. A perfected sniper simulator? APTX? Wow much? I know it's absurd, but hey, it's anime. Everything is absurd!  :D An orange ninja, a killing notebook, a drug which shrinks people, blah blah blah.

They can get anything they want via connections, bribery, blackmail, etc.

The Organization can get anything they want as the bad guys. (good cop - robber)

Their incredible ways of investigating. (Even without knowing the boy-who-witnessed-the-rena-incident's face or the incident for that matter. Vermouth was still, able to locate that boy and ask him a couple of questions)

The Organization's impressive deducing skills can crush whatever deducing skills the FBI, CIA, SAS, etc have. Seriously, this is a hands down win for the BO. While L as an individual shares the same skills. The Organization is a group and not an individual. They actually go out of their shells and investigate. Unlike L who stays in his room. (Excluding that helicopter scene)

The Organization's assassins are highly trained in several ways. They have efficient sure-shot snipers, People who are capable of pulling off flawless disguises, cold blooded killers like Gin, highly experienced members who specialize in information gathering and amazing detectives like Bourbon.

Seriously? L doesn't even control people like these. But he can ask help from other local police people in the area/agencies from other countries. Sure he can call for some killers/criminals like Wendy and Aiber but they are limited. The Organization control thousands of these people and are set all over the place. Not to mention, these killers are over the top as I said in the quoted post above: "The Organization's assassins are highly trained in several ways. They have efficient sure-shot snipers, People who are capable of pulling off flawless disguises, cold blooded killers like Gin, highly experienced members who specialize in information gathering and amazing detectives like Bourbon." No Organization have killers as skilled as those. May it be the Sas or interpol, etc. The Organization's assassins are the best of the best.

Control a large amount of highly intelligent and educated scientists who have studied overseas.

L does not have this.

SAS, Interpol, FBI that have existed far longer than 50 years

The amount of "years" do not matter in terms of the FBI. These executives, directors in FBI, all die and the cycle repeats. The experience level is set to zero. And same goes for the FBI, so both agencies should have the same amount of experience at the moment.

Everything you listed there, L has as well.

Not trying to be rude here. Tbh, not even close.

SAS, Interpol, FBI that have existed far longer than 50 years.  He has access to sharpshooters, excellent military personell, mucho dinero..

He can't control these people with a flick of a finger. ("Flick" 100 of you military people kill this criminal for me!) And where were these sharpshooters, excellent military personell, etc during the Kira case? And the people he could order around such as snipers from the FBI, sharpshooters, military personell are highly limited. Especially when compared to the Org. Not to mention, foreign agencies such as the FBI need permission to enter foreign countries. Aside from that, the members these agencies bring are limited. While the organization can bring out as many members as they want. The FBI can't just bring 3000 FBI agents in Japan! The people the FBI will send, no matter how big the case, will never reach atrocious numbers like 1000. This is a foreign case and as a Organization there has to be a lot of processing before they could even send a group of agents to another country like Japan. As far as I'm concerned, since the incident is set in one country. It is that country's responsibility of fixing that problem. The FBI may send a helping hand or two but that's it. It's a foreign case and it's not their business.

Regarding the hospital setup, I think you may be giving more credit than deserved...what the BO did sounds like what any military organization can accomplish

It's not what they did. It's how they did it. Just by looking at the hospital and it's surroundings. The BO have been able to confirm that there are several undercover FBI agents monitoring the area.

their are things the Black Organization just can't do which will limit their investigation.

These connections are unknown and secure thus, they don't have any serious limitations.

And Shinichi hasn't exactly disappeared from the public eye - he's made a lot of appearances only to tell people "hey don't tell anyone I was here!"  You talk a lot about the Black Oranization slipping in informants to find Kira, but remember Desperate Revival?  Shinichi appeared in front of maybe 200 high school students and the only thing Hattori said was "hey don't tell anyone".  If the Black Organization is as powerful at intel as you say, don't you think they would have found Shinichi by his stupid appearance?  If the B.O. couldn't have picked up clues regarding Shinichi being alive from that, I DOUBT they can even trace Light.

A) 200 High school students
- several of them will keep it a secret

B) Why would the BO spy on a little class play?

C) For the people who won't keep the incident a secret.
- Would people believe them? Why would a person who suddenly disappeared appear in a little school play? Knowing that Shinichi has a massive ego, would people even believe that he appeared and told everyone to keep it a secret? People would most likely pass this of as some rubbish gossip. Everyone knows he's been missing from school and that he's gone missing. His cases have been missing the newspapers and he's no where to be found? If someone told me that Micheal Jackson faked his death and sang Billie Jean for his 8 year old brother during his birthday. Would I believe that? The Black Organization already dismissed the Kudo case and confirmed his death. Why would they even believe a little gossip like this.

D) Let's say, for some weird reason. the BO were able to take this rumor seriously. Would they be stupid enough to investigate even if...
- Sherry's team confirmed his death.
- After investigating his house they confirmed that they were no signs of entry and everything was dusty and untouched just as they went there last month.
- Gin killed him.
- He disappeared from the public eye and cases with his name on it completely disappeared from the news.
- There have been no sightings from him and even people from his school say he disappeared.

Side Note: Thank God Vermouth didn't squeal on the play. If it were Vodka or anyone else this series would have ended in the 300s.

And I believe the Black Organization would have been in the same situation regarding countries backing out.  People started to quit once they saw how powerful Kira was and how no one was stopping him for a while.  The BO are human also, they fear and get scared - new members would probably be afraid to join with Kira dominating the world.  Their resources would dry out as well.

I don't understand; how does the BO know Kira is killing supernaturally?  Of course the BO would take the first move because Light would probably have no clue in who the BO is at first.  I agree with that.  But it's what happens after the first move that I'm debating - who wins the chess match.

There's no way in hell that the BO would back out on this.

How does the BO know Kira is killing supernaturally?

1) Several Patterns
a) Only a certain amount of criminals die each day. (And these killings only happen during certain hours)
b) Criminals are the only victims in these killings.
c) Numerous criminals die each day with a pattern in intervals.
d) These criminals are only those reported on the internet, news and the television.
e) Criminals with unknown names are not affected/Criminals with unknown faces are not affected.
f) All of them die of heart attacks.
g) There is a certain pattern each day as if the person is unable to so in certain points of the day. Patterns, fitting a student's life.
h) Even criminals inside prison cells are dying.

2) The definition of God (God is omniscient and does not have any limitations)
- Why would God leave so many patterns after his killings?
- Why does it seem like his powers are limited? (See patterns)
- Why do these killings concentrate on Japan? Only a few criminals from other countries are dying and those criminals are those who are popular. While in Japan, even those criminals who aren't doing much are being killed.
Why Japan? Does God hate Japan? What about other countries? Why does he only kill people reported in the news? Why can't God kill us, the most powerful crime syndicate in the World? Why do our members, who do so many cruel things not die? (Kir, Vermouth or those who are undercover and live good lives on the surface). God can't kill us. God has limitations? Then he is no God.

For me, it's really obvious that these killings are done supernaturally. Considering that the Org's brains are just as smart as Conan.

Word would get out in the Org, that they can't be killed due to their secrecy and the supposed God Kira is no God. The Organization would continue to act in secrecy and continue on their goal. And once that goal is finished, they would go public, announce their presence and unleash Pandora's box on Japan. Then, that will probably be the begin of the Org's face to face battle with Kira. And this is how the Org will beat Kira. (most likely possibility of the Org beating Kira) Now Kira will be faced with a bigger crisis. Instead of fighting a good cop with limitations he is now facing a robber. Leaving Conan and L out of this situation (since if L were present the Org would win and kill Kira before going public). Who do you think would win? Remember, killing a BO member trailing him would only make Kira a target. And that death, would only serve as a marker. So Kira, has no choice but to act innocently around BO pursuers. Now, who do you think would win? I think the BO would win this one.

Kira without L (Take note)

Spoiler:

Without L, Kira wouldn't have Kiyomi and Teru as his allies. Leaving Kira with Misa as his only ally.

(Without Conan in the way, all the Org's plans would have gone smoothly.)

Note: Can we make this debate a bit shorter? I can't reply to this thread during weekdays and I would like to enjoy my weekend too. Thanks.  :)

Meh..that's not very good reasoning - sounds very biased haha.  The fact that this is in a DC forum means that DC is far more favored than other manga/anime series - this show is most likely their favorite.  It's true that Death Note is probably more popular than DC and more people watch it - but there is less bias if posting this in a general anime forum rather than a Death Note or DC forum.  It's like if I posted "what's better, Call of Duty or Halo" in a Halo thread.  What do you expect will happen eh?  I can say that "currently more people play Call of Duty than Halo so if I post it on a Halo forum, who  have members probably have played both, the polls will be more fair".

- Majority of the members in this thread don't have DC as their favorite anime. (Reference: Top 10 anime and manga thread or something across those lines.)
- Practically everyone on DCTP has watched both DC and DN.
- And I don't really care about DC vs DN arguements because both animes are pretty much tied for the number 3 spot in my stop 5 list. What I care about are L vs Shinichi and BO vs Kira topics because in those topics I really see both Shinichi and the BO winning. And other DN fans out there are vote for L/Kira right away because they view DC as a childish anime and won't even bother watching it. Everyone in any other anime forum is a DN fan while barely anyone watches DC. You have no idea how badly DC is being viewed out there. A lot of people, especially DN fans bash DC for no reason. Barely anyone in other anime forums have even watched DC and it isn't given a fair chance in these contests. I think you, who are obviously a harder DN fan than a DC fan (Just as I am a harder DC fan) should admit this. DCTP, is probably the most reliable source in terms of "L vs Shinichi and BO vs Kira topics (not DC vs DN threads)." Since a lot of us here are mature, quite old (over 14) and are able to put aside, majority of our bias. (every opinion has a bias). But most importantly, everyone here is knowledgeable in both animes.

Tbh.

Spoiler:

Posting "L vs Shinichi" threads anywhere else is just as good as posting on a Death Note forum. And I think a lot of us here can agree with me. Though posting threads like that over here is still biased and may give unreliable results like everywhere else. It's obviously the most reliable place around for knowledgeable votes.

"WILL REPLY TO THIS THREAD NEXT WEEK" - August 14 2010 (after hell week/exams - one week from august 14)

[ranger]

Shorter debate, dunno if this is possible because you're the one that started with these huge posts XD I'll try, I hate responding to giant replies as well.

I'll post again later, but I want to address this first, you said that a majority of the members here in DCTP don't have DC as their favorite animes (you are using the data from The Top 10 Anime/Manga List).  You may want to look it again, out of 5 pages, DC outranked DN every single time with the exception of 4 people.  DC also was at people's number one anime/manga spot many, many times.  So, my argument is valid, that this, is still a biased statement to believe that the results of this particular debate on a DC forum is the real truth .

Secondly, you assume that I'm a much hardcore fan of DN than DC, how do you explain why I'm on here and the amount of time/posts I've put into this forum then rather than a DN forum

[ranger]

Since we both want a shorter debate, I've pretty much summed up your argument into three parts:

Power/Resources, Shinichi vs Kira's vulnerability factor, and the Supernatural aspect.


Power/Resource:

Your comparison to a police officer and a robber.  

There are two people with a gun. Your average policeman and robber. The average policeman can only shoot for certain reasons. His role is to protect the community from criminals and thus, he cannot do as he pleases. Since, he is a good person and wishes for the best of the community. The robber on the other hand, is a foul person with different ideals. He could do whatever he wants. He could shoot a person, rob a bank, start a hostage, steal a car. Despite these two people having the same weapons. The robber can do sooo much more. Making him faaaar more dangerous. He doesn't care if someone gets shot, to hell with them. While the police on the hand, has restrictions and boundaries which he cannot cross. Your average policeman can't rob a bank or steal a car. During hostage situations, he can't shoot the robber but the robber could shoot him as much as he wants. You see my point? But wait, there's more...

Firstly, the robber and police officer do not have access to the same weapons.  The police have legitimate sources for weaponry including automatic rifles.  The robber, even if they access to this somehow if he was a big shot and had connections, is no where nearly as trained as a SWAT member in the police.  The robber, because is a criminal in the country, does not have access to as many places as a normal citizen, not even mentioning a police officer.  He can't even walk the streets without feeling insecure.  The robber is dangerous because he/she choses to do these actions.  There is nothing special about the robber that surpasses him/her above the police.  You do realize that the police have authorization to use lethal force when necessary?  Especially in hostage situations, the robber will have no idea that a sniper is aiming at his/her head.

Now regarding power.  L, in the beginning, did have the entire world's support.  Like I said in the ICPO conference, every country backed him.  There's no way, the Black Organization, has more money than L at this point.  You're telling me, that the top 3 GDP countries in the US, Japan, and China are being outnumbered by a mere mysterious organization?  The world isn't dumb, so even if the B.O. were as rich as these big guys, someone would definitely notice.  People don't major in Harvard and Berkeley for nothing.

The Organization's impressive deducing skills can crush whatever deducing skills the FBI, CIA, SAS, etc have. Seriously, this is a hands down win for the BO. While L as an individual shares the same skills.

Now, on the intelligence factor.  You mention that that the BO (the entire group) are all great investigators while L is at their same level but just being an individual.  Well, there's only really one person that is up to par to L's skills, which is Gin.  Everyone else can't compare. Vodka, Chianti, Korn...Anyone in the FBI/CIA today can investigate like Bourbon, he's not that great, and Vermouth is constantly switching sides.  They are by far definitely at a lower level than Near and Mellow.  Everyone else I'm assuming are just scrubs or Gosho would of already included them if they were up to Gin's skill level.  So, your argument that an entire Organization of skilled investigators that mimic L's abilities is incorrect.

Shinichi vs Kira Vulnerability

What I mean by this is how vulnerable their secrets are.  I don't understand why you think 200 people is a joke.  Especially with the communication technology we have today, if 200 people get whiff that a famous celebrity, such as the country-renown Shinichi Kudo, was alive, rumors are going to spread and the Black Organization should become suspicious if they are at as great as collecting intel as you say they are.  Especially if it's more than one person, and in this case, it's going to be around anywhere from 1-100 from the play.  Any great intelligence organization, such as the CIA, takes every piece of data they collect seriously, even if they are minor rumors about terrorists, because, you should never count something out.  

Now how would Kira be found then?  He's a ghost somewhere in Japan.  How would they find clues to locate him?  It's unfair to say they can find Yagami Light and not Shinichi Kudo when he's literally appeared in front of a huge crowd.  The Black Organization would be performing a foolish move if they are so arrogant in believing that their victim is still dead despite numerous rumors that are all similar from different sources.


Supernatural Aspect:

1) Several Patterns
a) Only a certain amount of criminals die each day. (And these killings only happen during certain hours)
b) Criminals are the only victims in these killings.
c) Numerous criminals die each day with a pattern in intervals.
d) These criminals are only those reported on the internet, news and the television.
e) Criminals with unknown names are not affected/Criminals with unknown faces are not affected.
f) All of them die of heart attacks.
g) There is a certain pattern each day as if the person is unable to so in certain points of the day. Patterns, fitting a student's life.
h) Even criminals inside prison cells are dying.

How would anyone conclude that this is the work of something supernatural?!  A logical detective would NEVER ever rely on the basis of supernatural aspects.  L, when he first heard of Shinigami/eyes, thought it was a code name.  Not only until he actually saw the damn Shinigami and the Death Note he was convinced.  If Sherlock Holmes ever thought of the possibility of something akin to supernatural aspects, that would be most out-of-character moment ever.

For me, it's really obvious that these killings are done supernaturally. Considering that the Org's brains are just as smart as Conan.

LOL well of course it's obvious for you!  You were an audience member while watching the show!  You got to see everyone's point of view, if actions like this were happening in real life, would you seriously think that this was the work of a Shinigami?!    I would have no freakin clue and would think it's some sort of administered poison...not in my wildest dreams a Japanese death god's killer notebook.


BTW, you don't have to say "I don't mean to be rude" or whatever... saying those things isn't going to change my mind or anything  "I don't mean to be rude, but I hate you!" lol see what I mean..?

[Detective Prince]

L + Light would destroy the BO

[bluekaitou1412]

L can annihilate the BO while eating sweets

[ranger]

Word.  Thanks, boys

[Kaia]

I have tried to read all of the posts in this thread. However, I have given up halfways. It was just too much for me.

In order to reach my decision I have just compared some characters...

Misa VS Vodka
Both of them are quite dumb compared to their partners and both of them make mistakes. Misa cannot fulfil her tasks without Light's guide and Vodka really falls in nearly every trap Kudo made for him. I am sure Vodka would not be still in one piece if Gin was not observing and watching every steps he did.
Therefore, I will say this one is a draw.

Higuchi Kyousuke VS Kir
Kira usually kills people to create a world with only good people in his point of view. Higuchi only kills off criminals because Rem's told him to, but his personal use for the Death Note is something completely else. I think his situation can be compared to Kir. She is in truth a CIA agent, but acts like a BO member in order to fulfil her own mission.
Higuchi was only cornered once and died because of it. Kir was cornered once and survived. Even after her father's death, she was still able to stay in the organization without to be killed. Even after she was captured by the FBI and was still doubted, she somehow pulled through.
Therefore, I believe it's Kir's win.

Mikami Teru VS Gin
Mikami Teru is as loyal to Kira as Gin is loyal to the organization. Unfortunately, Mikami is too emotional over his work and his only mistake costs his life. In my point of view, Gin treats his missions only as business and does not put any emotion in them except of his hunt for Sherry. I admit that Gin had done severals too - he intended to kill Kudo, but failed; he did not noticed that Hara's dying message was pointing to him and many others - but none of them were grave enough that it did cost his life... Well, at least he is not dead yet.
For now, I say victory belongs to Gin.

Yagami Light VS Anokata
Yagami was much easier spotted by L than Anokata by Kudo. It took him much longer.
It was revealed very easily that Kira was a student and lived in a certain area of Japan.
However, the only information is leaked from Anokata is the tone of his cellphone number.
No matter what for a great genius Yagami is, I believe Anokata is a much better leader and antagonist than him.

Summarized: I have voted for the Black Organization.

[AiHikari]

I have tried to read all of the posts in this thread. However, I have given up halfways. It was just too much for me.

same ._. xD

Yagami Light VS Anokata
Yagami was much easier spotted by L than Anokata by Kudo. It took him much longer.
It was revealed very easily that Kira was a student and lived in a certain area of Japan.
However, the only information is leaked from Anokata is the tone of his cellphone number.
No matter what for a great genius Yagami is, I believe Anokata is a much better leader and antagonist than him.

Summarized: I have voted for the Black Organization.

agree 100% with you !

[Introuble]

And ermmm, about the good cop - bad cop comparison I think you got the entire idea wrong. Or, is it my fault for not explaining it that well. In that comparison, I wanted to take a cop and a robber who had the same weapons, armor and etc and examine what they're capable of doing. They have the same weapons, just for this example, okay? My point was to show you how much more a bad person could do with his weapons in comparison to a good person who has the same weapons. So these people, have the SAME weapons. And despite these people having the same weapons, the bad guy (with his weapon) can do so much more than the good guy (with his weapon).

Now, on the intelligence factor.  You mention that that the BO (the entire group) are all great investigators while L is at their same level but just being an individual.  Well, there's only really one person that is up to par to L's skills, which is Gin.  Everyone else can't compare. Vodka, Chianti, Korn...Anyone in the FBI/CIA today can investigate like Bourbon, he's not that great, and Vermouth is constantly switching sides.  They are by far definitely at a lower level than Near and Mellow.  Everyone else I'm assuming are just scrubs or Gosho would of already included them if they were up to Gin's skill level.  So, your argument that an entire Organization of skilled investigators that mimic L's abilities is incorrect

Spoiler:

like Bourbon, he's not that great

How?!?!? How is Bourbon not great? The dude is practically up to par with Shinichi. His deducing abilities are so amazing that it was even worthy of Gin's praise.

Vermouth is constantly switching sides.

Again, as said in our previous posts. We are putting L and Conan out of this mess. This is a one on one fight featuring Kira and Organization. Therefore, without Conan/Shinichi, Vermouth wouldn't be switching sides.

Just pointing things out. Ranger, you do realize that the Black Organization were seeing now is only one mere group. It's nowhere close to being the entire thing. Right now, DC's Black Organization is only composed of Gin's group. There are several other groups like Gin's who share the same abilities. Gin's group is merely one little squad, so there are several other high ranking officials who head groups like Gin who can match up to L's abilities. And not only that, a lot of members in Gin's group can also match up/almost match up with L's abilities such as Bourbon and Vermouth. And this is only one group of a LARGE Organization. Imagine how many people match up to L's abilities in all the other groups combined?

The only reason why we're focusing on Gin's group is because it was group that started this entire mess with Shinichi in the first place. Gin gave him the drug. Gin had a special relationship with Haibara who joined forces with Conan. Vermouth was under Gin. Kir visited Vermouth in her Araide form. Kir was captured, and since she was part of Gin's group. It was Gin's little squad that had to take the responsibility of bringing her back. And besides, most of the trails left by Gin's group only lead to other members of Gin's group (While the rest lead to the Organization as a group). We got to Vermouth because she was under Gin during the hotel incident. We got to Kir because she visited Vermouth. We got to Chianti and Korn because they were picked by Gin in episode 425. Akai got into the Org because of Akemi and was assigned to Gin's group by choice. The Organization we are seeing now is only one mere group and not the entire thing. It's like looking at one locust instead of looking at the entire swarm.  Not to mention, The Org is an international group and they have several more facilities and members outside of Japan who share the same abilities.

Gin's group

Spoiler:

The Black Organization

Spoiler:

And well, as for comparing the Organization's Detectives to other agencies such as the FBI. It's not even close. As I've stated and stressed so many times in my previous posts (gave SEVERAL examples. Go back and read them). The Organization, their detectives, their informants, it's crazy. They can beat the hell out of all those other agencies any day! Seriously, don't even compare the Organization's detectives to those of other agencies.  ;)

I'll post again later, but I want to address this first, you said that a majority of the members here in DCTP don't have DC as their favorite animes (you are using the data from The Top 10 Anime/Manga List).  You may want to look it again, out of 5 pages, DC outranked DN every single time with the exception of 4 people.  DC also was at people's number one anime/manga spot many, many times.  So, my argument is valid, that this, is still a biased statement to believe that the results of this particular debate on a DC forum is the real truth.

Okay, what's wrong with me. Based on my memory, majority of the people on those thread had DC on rank 3 or 4. My memory fails me again, sorry for that  :). Anyway, I can assure you that I have no bias when it comes to saying that the votes over here are more reliable than those in other forums. Seriously, just think about it. It's almost common sense. Practically everyone in all the other forums haven't even watched Detective Conan. And those who did (those who watched 5 episodes and quit), think it's a childish anime and assume that all the other 500 episodes are the same. These people don't even know about the Black Organization. Hell, some of them don't even know about Shinichi's shrinking. However, in a knowledgable forum like this one were everyone almost everyone has watched both DN and DC, I'd say these votes would be more reliable than those of other forums. Besides, some of us here don't even have DC as our number one anime (like me) and are able set aside most of our biases and come up with a honest conclusion. And besides, a lot of us here are also old enough to put away majority these biases. Still, I'd take knowledgeable votes over unknowledgeable ones any day.   Seriously, I think I've proved my point a long time ago.

So are you trying to tell me that votes in other anime forums are more reliable than those over here? Okay then, let me give you an example.
Other anime forum: Oh, I never watched Detective Conan so I'd go for Death Note.
DC Fourm: Oh, I've completely watched both animes! Hmmmm, I'd still go for Conan (States REASON).

Secondly, you assume that I'm a much hardcore fan of DN than DC, how do you explain why I'm on here and the amount of time/posts I've put into this forum then rather than a DN forum

Are you telling me that you're a much hardcore fan of DC than DN. Seriously, I'm not buying that.  :-* Your Avatar in this forum has been Kira like how many times already? Honeslty, I don't even remember the last Conan avatar you had. Your siggy also once had L and Kira in it. And the reason why you're posting in a DC forum because One, it's one of your favorites. Two, It's an ongoing anime. And three, Death Note isn't. In fact you are the only person in this forum who started a soundtrack thread of a different anime (You were the starter of the "Death Note Soundtrack" thread), which goes to show how much of a DN fan you are. Also, you are spending a lot of time in replying to my posts with a LOT of passion. Which again, goes to show your love for DN. Okay, stating my personal experience, when Kobe was playing horrible prior to the start of the playoffs, I thought he was done. He barely had any lift and he was jacking shots like crazy. And despite all my bias, I admitted that Lebron was better than Kobe. But despite that admittion, I would never go as far as debating to prove other Laker fans that Lebron was better than Kobe. Simply because it was stupid, I'm a Laker fan for Pete's sake! And same goes for you, I honestly don't think that you're a bigger DC fan than DN because of all the passion/effort I sense in your posts speaks otherwise. (Btw, I changed my mind ever since Kobe drained his knee and played arguably the best playoff basketball of his career. Kobe > Lebron)

I just had to point a couple of things out since it seems that you weren't getting my idea on my comparison and viewed the Org as Gin's group and Gin's group alone. I'm working on a school project which is due Monday, and next week from wednesday onwards is exam week as well. So I'll give my full response to your post and your reply to this post next week. And the reason for me not posting this week was because it was Long Test/Project week.

@Kaia @AiHikari
*high fives*

Nighty night!  :)

[ranger]

And ermmm, about the good cop - bad cop comparison I think you got the entire idea wrong. Or, is it my fault for not explaining it that well. In that comparison, I wanted to take a cop and a robber who had the same weapons, armor and etc and examine what they're capable of doing. They have the same weapons, just for this example, okay? My point was to show you how much more a bad person could do with his weapons in comparison to a good person who has the same weapons. So these people, have the SAME weapons. And despite these people having the same weapons, the bad guy (with his weapon) can do so much more than the good guy (with his weapon).

And I was making the point that, even though the criminal may have malicious intentions compared to the law official's, they still cannot beat them to the lack of the economic advantage (in this case, weaponry/technology/transporation).  And that's usually not possible that the two will be on equal footing when it comes to equipment.


Regarding the BO's squad matter, forgive me but I haven't rewatched the series in a while (and I don't read manga until I finish the anime series, which obviously isn't complete yet), but I was never aware that there are other equal squads compared to Gin's.  From what I've watched/remember, I was always under the impression that Gin was Anokata's right hand man, meaning he was the top dog.  So if you can show me an example where it mentions that there are others as the same level as Gin, I would be convinced.

Gin's group may be a lot smaller compared to the BO, but I always thought his was the elite bunch, meaning the cream of the crop; that's why he's got Vermouth, Bourbon, Akai, Snipers who train in retardedly-advanced simulators (wtf lol).

And well, as for comparing the Organization's Detectives to other agencies such as the FBI. It's not even close. As I've stated and stressed so many times in my previous posts (gave SEVERAL  examples. Go back and read them). The Organization, their detectives, their informants, it's crazy. They can beat the hell out of all those other agencies any day! Seriously, don't even compare the Organization's detectives to those of other agencies.  Wink

Yes, I've read your examples Introuble , numerous and countless times as we debate back and forth, and I've had my posts as well that address yours.  I'm going to throw back the same argument you gave me - The FBI/CIA is America's elite organizations when it comes to justice in domestic and international issues.  In DC, Akai is their trump card.  Akai, however, is simply a mere Agent assigned to the Black Organization; it's not just Japan, as seen in the Golden Apple case, he goes pretty much everywhere where the BO is.  The Black Organization is just a small nuissance in the scale of the entire world's issues, so America has to assign many other agents to even bigger threats - such as the war in Iraq and the struggle over WMD.  America also needs other trump cards at the same level as Akai to handle other issues, so there are going to be numerous Akais to insure America's safety.  Meaning, yes, I do believe that the FBI's detectives are at an equal level to the Black Organization and they are equal in numbers as well.  A secret society isn't going to have more members than a public organization for the world's 3rd populous country. Not to mention, not all of them are going to be Gin-level.

To be fair, Introuble, DC and DN share a common genre, mystery and detective fiction, meaning usually fans who watch one tend to watch the other, so it works in the way of DN fans watching DC as well.  Also, I think you should give DC some credit , there's a reason why its had its long run.  Don't underestimate it's popularity, simply because it's not as well known among the general American populace doesn't mean it isn't popular with hardcore anime/manga fans (who actually go to anime/manga forums).  And yes, I'm telling you that it's more fair to see the results of this poll in a neutral location, rather than in a forum where fans have DC as their favorite animes of all times.

My avatar has been Kira, like, once, lol! I have had numerous Conan avatars when I first joined here, I even had Koi Wa Thrill Shock dance as my signature (you can ask Akonyl about this) damnit!! lol I enjoy Death Note's soundtrack, what can I say...there's nothing wrong with me making a thread regarding the soundtrack :/ I love the DC soundtrack as well (even though lately it's gone to hell).  The reason why I'm arguing against you is because I disagree with you and I have extensive knowledge in both fields enough for me to actually argue against you.  I don't know what to say if you don't believe me, but DC was relatively my first anime I watched when I was older (disregarding crap like DBZ/yugioh/pokemon that everyone watched in their childhood).  Before that, I would admit that I disliked and even hated on animes/mangas.  But afterwards, because I loved it so much, watching 500+ episodes, my mindset has changed - DC opened doors for me, so it's always number 1 in my heart.

Don't worry about the response time, I gots skewl coming up as well (as a matter of fact I leave in two days), education is always priority number one, especially when comparing to online play.  I'd hate to see you fail an assignment and tell your teacher "ITS BECAUSE OF SOME D-BAG ONLINE WHO SAID THE BO CANT BEAT KIRA!!" *teacher deadpans. 

[Introuble]

you fail an assignment and tell your teacher "ITS BECAUSE OF SOME D-BAG ONLINE WHO SAID THE BO CANT BEAT KIRA!!" *teacher deadpans.  :P

Lol, if my teacher said that. Post reserved for my future reply over the weekend.

But i'll give you this for now.

Regarding the BO's squad matter, forgive me but I haven't rewatched the series in a while (and I don't read manga until I finish the anime series, which obviously isn't complete yet), but I was never aware that there are other equal squads compared to Gin's.  From what I've watched/remember, I was always under the impression that Gin was Anokata's right hand man, meaning he was the top dog.  So if you can show me an example where it mentions that there are others as the same level as Gin, I would be convinced.

Gin is merely a high ranking BO official who heads his own squad. The way I see it, the BO grasps all of their high ranking officials and gives them control over a specific squad (probably handpicked just like Chianti and Korn while some are assigned). Since Gin's group was in charge of killing Akai, that brought Bourbon into the discussion. Bourbon, who had a bitter past with Akai, decided to join the mess after hearing the death of Akai Shuichi which he failed to believe. As of now, it is unsure whether or not he was assigned to Gin's group (considering his Vermouth like Attitude) but based on Gosho's usual patterns. He will probably join in with Gin. Now, as for Vermouth, due to Gin's huge dislike for secretive people and his responsible ways of keeping everyone in check such as Kir and Vodka, Anokata probably picked Gin to watch Vermouth for this reason.  However, Gin's hold over Vermouth is most probably just for the sake of watching her and not ordering her. I highly doubt that Vermouth is actually under Gin since she practically has free will over her own decisions, being the bosses favorite of course. As we've seen in the previous episodes, Vermouth also has the ability to handpick members such has Calvados making her a high ranking official as well. Gin, is not the bosses right hand man, he' merely one of the Org's top dogs/high ranking officials making him one of the highest. However, there are several other people like him in the Organization. Since, the Org can't only have one high ranking official right? Now, taking out all of the Organization's top dogs and their groups. The lower groups or squads are obviously held by lower members. Members, who are probably at Bourbon's level or higher. Since, people like Bourbon are being assigned to Gin's group we can assume that these lower squad leaders have the same or even higher caliber than Bourbons (Bourbon/Heji level). Since of course, if Bourbon were actually good enough to lead a group he would be doing so by now. So basically, low level or not the Organizations dogs are still, highly dangerous and way above your above average line.

In other words, The Organization have several "cream of the crop" squads. And Gin only controls a measly one of them.

The Black Organization is just a small nuissance in the scale of the entire world's issues, so America has to assign many other agents to even bigger threats

The Organization is a clandestine Organization. And the information on the Org as a group is almost zero. The FBI, no matter how hard, have to investigate all of this in secret. Though this may sound weird, the FBI seem to be hiding this investigation from the public as well. I asked Chekov for some help a couple of weeks ago and here was his reply.

Hey, I'm wondering why the FBI are investigating the Organization in a low key manner. You know, as if they don't want the world to know of (BO) their presence. I know their investigations in Japan are confidential and limited since they haven't been given any jurisdiction to enter Japan legally. So why? Why can't they just gain authority to enter Japan and send a full force of FBI agents? Why do they act as if they wouldn't want the world to know of the Organizations existence? Wouldn't exposing their identity as a criminal organization bring more help to their side? They certainly have enough evidence to do so. Thanks  - Trouble

Good question. It doesn't make much sense to me honestly. Maybe Japan would rather investigate it themselves rather than have foreign people run the show, so the FBI would really have no place? Maybe the influence of the corruption of the BO is so great that the Japanese justice system wouldn't handle it efficiently? Maybe the FBI are afraid that if they don't damage the Org enough with the first shot it will retreat into hiding so well that they won't get a second shot, so the FBI are trying to maneuver for the best possible position before inflicting a sure strike? Some reason we don't know yet? I really don't know. - Chekhov

The FBI, which is an American based industry was left with almost nothing (information on the Org) after American Actress Chris Vinyard disappeared into the shadows. After learning about her location in Japan and her plans on disguising with Araide the FBI immediately launched a secret investigation into Japan. Since, they haven't been able to gain official jurisdiction to Japan, the FBI's members were limited. Okay, now going out of the question. The FBI, had only one to lead to the Org in America, Chris Vinyard. And after her escape to Japan the only thing they could do was send a limited force after her. But now that she's gone and out of American ground. The FBI are again, left with nothing, their only hope at the moment is to pray and wish for some progress in Japan. Aside from that, in their current location, America, they can't do anything. Afterall, with no leads, against a ghost-like Organization. The FBI can't even get a lead even if they tried.

it's not just Japan, as seen in the Golden Apple case, he goes pretty much everywhere where the BO is.

He goes everywhere the BO is because he wants revenge for Akemi.

it's not just Japan, as seen in the Golden Apple case, he goes pretty much everywhere where the BO is.

He goes everywhere the BO is because he wants revenge for Akemi.

To be fair, Introuble, DC and DN share a common genre, mystery and detective fiction, meaning usually fans who watch one tend to watch the other, so it works in the way of DN fans watching DC as well.  Also, I think you should give DC some credit

I do give DC credit. But if you would see how bad it is being treated out there I'm sure you'd understand.

America also needs other trump cards at the same level as Akai to handle other issues

Akai's probably the best they got. And when I mean best, I mean the entire FBI. There are probably people just as good as he is but this number won't even reach a handfull so they have to be distributed responsibly. Akai is on a different level. He's the perfect killer! The dude can do anything, seriously. Who in the world can shoot a small little piece of metal between someone's fingertips 700 yards away! No way, no one is as good as Akai. Akai is waaaaaay better than Gin and Gin himself knows that. And as for threats like WMD, Ranger, this anime is still set in the 1990s, even if everything is modernized for the sake of the new generation, DC is still set in 1990s so they wouldn't even have threats as big as these. And besides, the current goal of the FBI in Japan is to gain some leads on the Org. While their main goal is to destroy it, it is almost impossible. Thus, as much as they want to destroy (which is their unrealistic goal), their main goal is to get some leads on it for future use. It's like a person who's not so gifted in math. He wants to get a 100, but since he can barely pass, he'll aim for a minimum passing mark instead. Well, if ever the Org goes public and announces their presence, I'm sure the FBI will send loads and loads of backup. But as of now, where killing them as a group is practically impossible, Akai and Jodie are sufficient for gathering leads.

[Laurell]

Well, for me, if Kira and the BO are going to have their match, I'm sure that the BO will surely win ATM. However, when the BO's real name is revealed and Kira learned about it, I'm sure it will be the start of the BO's downfall. Anokata's identity and the BO's name are connected so if one is figured out, then the other will be exposed as well. That is, if Kira will find out about this info.

In regards with L, Vermouth will lead the way. After the majority of the police backed out, the only ones who are dedicated and who can be trusted remains. And the Japanese police know that Yagami Souichiro is a part of the group. The BO can investigate about this info, find where is the headquarters and plan how to infiltrate it. And here comes Vermouth, abducting Yagami and disguising as him and poof! She can now infiltrate the HQ of L's investigation team. The BO are now hitting two birds in one stone, knowing the identity of L and some leads about Kira. Since supernatural is considered, I guess disguising is also considered.

[L-]

Yagami Light VS Anokata
Yagami was much easier spotted by L than Anokata by Kudo. It took him much longer.
It was revealed very easily that Kira was a student and lived in a certain area of Japan.
However, the only information is leaked from Anokata is the tone of his cellphone number.
No matter what for a great genius Yagami is, I believe Anokata is a much better leader and antagonist than him.

Summarized: I have voted for the Black Organization.

Thats not fair, Kudo isn't as good as L, if it was L he would be much closer to finding his identity. Plus L had the whole Japanese Poice force and some FBI agents at his disposal and plus Haibara is giving him any info so there situations are different

[Kaia]

Thats not fair, Kudo isn't as good as L, if it was L he would be much closer to finding his identity. Plus L had the whole Japanese Poice force and some FBI agents at his disposal and plus Haibara is giving him any info so there situations are different

Anokata must have also started from scratch like Light and he was able to come that far. Even before Kudo, Anokata must have faced enemies equal to 'L' or 'N'.
However, he was able to overcome all those dangers. Surviving that far, creating connections and gathering followers - you also need talent, intelligence and certain abilities to create them yourself. They do not come to someone on their own after all.
Anokata was able to succeed in those areas. Light failed to do so though. This is why my mind has still not changed.

Even if Anokata had never met such dangers, it just proves how talented he is. He had worked so that nobody would notice him. Escaping someone's suspecting is also a talent you have to achieve.
This shows that Anokata's theories were more superior than Light's. If you use the wrong strategies, then it is also your loss. It does not matter who the enemy was. If you survive, then you win.

[L-]

He has hundreds of highly trained minions while Light only had a couple of weirdos! and even so he made all the plans himself. I just think if Light was in his position he would be much better.

And I doubt he faced anyone good as L or Near otherwise he would have been caught and or we would have heard about em' since this is Shinichi's story and its obvious he is the one to take down the BO that is implying no one better than him has tried before. Now its up for debate who is better between L or Near against Kudo but I think a lot of people would agree that L is.