Gin vs. Ran: Who is smarter?

[randompi314159]

Yep, Eisuke could be pretty good, if they decide to return him to the story somehow.

Ew Eisuke was annoying I don't him back unless he comes to try to steal Ran Away....lmao get it?

haha, uh huh.

[sstimson]

Ew Eisuke was annoying I don't him back unless he comes to try to steal Ran Away....lmao get it?

More likely he will Steal & Ran away

[Nyarl]

Quasi solved? She got the culprit, and almost all of the explanation. The only thing she needed was proof, and Shin'ichi only gave her a hint about how to get it, he didn't tell her how, she got it herself. The only reason it doesn't prove anything to you is your entrenched bias.

If anyone's biased here, it's you. After all, you're the one who voted for Ran even though you admitted yourself that Gin's smarter.

I didn't vote for Ran.

And Ran couldn't have solved that simple case without Shinichi's help, no matter how small it was.
So I maintain what I said, she quasi-solved it.

She did solve it, the who, the where he was hiding, and the why after Aya's shifts, before Shin'ichi give any hints. What she wasn't clear about was why the culprit couldn't try to put the boxes back, and whether to prove it rather than rely on people accepting her deduction.

But, no, you're right, the real order of problem solvers is Genta>Yamamura>Kogoro>Megure>Sonoko>Jodie>everyone else>Conan. Like Jodie, they solve all those simple cases easily and just play dumb to make Conan feel better about himself. Conan quasi solving them (many he doesn't solve without hints from other characters' tangential conversations, clearly "doesn't" implies "can't", so he's clearly only quasi solving them) doesn't prove he's smarter than them.

How is seeing through Conan in the 7th story with him "slow"? If anything, she's a bit crazy for even being able to think that way. (Agasa's natural law breaking inventions give her some excuse, though.)

She should have seen through him right after meeting him. She used to hang out with him all the time when they were young. Isn't he supposed to have the same face? Her reaction should have been "shocked by the stricking resemblance" then "realizing Shinichi's shrunk, probably by one of Agasa's crazy inventions, especially that Agasa was there".

She would hang out with him all the time as he aged, too. Why should she have a special memory of what he looked like at one particular age, rather than become used to what he looks like now? Also, who are you comparing her with? Agasa saw the resemblance, but Conan didn't have the glasses, and it took convincing to make him believe he was really Shin'ichi, even though he knows science doesn't work exactly like it works in our universe.

You're too busy dismissing stuff out of hand to pay attention to what's actually been argued.

Back at you, actually.

I'm actually providing arguments and evidence, though. You were just declaring the idea itself too absurd to brook, and even now your arguments are based on false assumptions.

How many times did we see Ran thinking about Shinichi and what he would do in such situation, trying to act like him and getting to know the same feeling of satisfaction/victory that he gets after solving a case?

Never. Ran hasn't shown the least bit interest in feeling the "satisfaction/victory" herself. Quite the contrary, in Convenience Store it was Shin'ichi who wanted her to have the chance feel that, after she told him that she's not an overconfident detective. Instances where Ran is thinking, "What would Shin'ichi do," were always a result of the desire to help someone else, not the desire to actually be like or be liked by Shin'ichi.

Forget about your "entrenched bias" a moment and remember that Ran actually tries to solve cases, Haibara doesn't. She just doesn't seem interested. She only feels the need to do so when Conan's not around, because she has to. And even then, when Conan's around once again, she'd stop and let him do his job.

Name the cases besides Convenience Store Ran actually tried to solve herself. Remember, as Sora likes to belabor, it took Jodie's coaxing to even get her to try to help them solve that case rather than simply consult Shin'ichi/Conan. Even when she's helping her father, I don't think she has any pretense that she's doing anything more than helping (even when she's leading the investigation, practically).

[Girl19]

I didn't vote for Ran.

How can I be sure about that? Escpecially that you ignored the first time I pointed out the possibility that you did..

She did solve it, the who, the where he was hiding, and the why after Aya's shifts, before Shin'ichi give any hints. What she wasn't clear about was why the culprit couldn't try to put the boxes back, and whether to prove it rather than rely on people accepting her deduction.

Then I guess we have different conceptions of "solving a case". To me, if you can't find the proof, it means you still didn't fully solve the case; hence the "quasi" prefix I keep using.

But, no, you're right, the real order of problem solvers is Genta>Yamamura>Kogoro>Megure>Sonoko>Jodie>everyone else>Conan. Like Jodie, they solve all those simple cases easily and just play dumb to make Conan feel better about himself. Conan quasi solving them (many he doesn't solve without hints from other characters' tangential conversations, clearly "doesn't" implies "can't", so he's clearly only quasi solving them) doesn't prove he's smarter than them.

Sarcasm just doesn't work here. Because you're comparing the fact that Shinichi deliberately gave Ran hints with the fact that Conan himself notices hints or uses people's futile remarks and actually turns them into useful hints.

She would hang out with him all the time as he aged, too. Why should she have a special memory of what he looked like at one particular age, rather than become used to what he looks like now?

I actually wish you were using sarcasm here, because this is the weakest argument you've given so far.
Do you mean she has amnesia and can't remember her best friend's childhood-face? Okay.

Also, who are you comparing her with? Agasa saw the resemblance, but Conan didn't have the glasses, and it took convincing to make him believe he was really Shin'ichi, even though he knows science doesn't work exactly like it works in our universe.

I wasn't comparing her with Agasa. I said, since Agasa was there, she should have thought of the possibility that maybe he had something to do with the situation.

You're too busy dismissing stuff out of hand to pay attention to what's actually been argued.

Back at you, actually.

I'm actually providing arguments and evidence, though. You were just declaring the idea itself too absurd to brook, and even now your arguments are based on false assumptions.

First of all, you do realize the thread's not about attacking the non-Ran-shippers, but about comparing 2 fictional characters which have nothing in common, don't you? So I think you should try to sound less rude.
Secondly, you first accused me of being "too busy dismissing stuff out of hand to pay attention to what's actually been argued". Yet, you are the one who's been deviating the topic ever since your first post by bringing other characters (Haibara, Agasa, etc.). So I don't think I'm the one who doesn't "pay attention to what's actually being argued" here.
Thirdly, you're now accusing me of using "arguments based on false assumptions". I'd really appreciate it if you could point out my false assuptions and "provide" valid explanations, as I'd like to correct myself in case I'm really wrong. Oh well, at least I try not to repeat the same "arguments and evidences".

Never. Ran hasn't shown the least bit interest in feeling the "satisfaction/victory" herself. Quite the contrary, in Convenience Store it was Shin'ichi who wanted her to have the chance feel that, after she told him that she's not an overconfident detective. Instances where Ran is thinking, "What would Shin'ichi do," were always a result of the desire to help someone else, not the desire to actually be like or be liked by Shin'ichi.

Never? Didn't she say she wanted to feel, at least once, the same satisfactory feeling after solving a case? And I never said she tried to solve cases because she wanted Shinichi to like her or to be like him, don't twist my words as I wasn't even discussing her reasons. I said Ran actually tried to solve cases, so she can't have the same excuse as Haibara (because you were comparing them previously).

Name the cases besides Convenience Store Ran actually tried to solve herself. Remember, as Sora likes to belabor, it took Jodie's coaxing to even get her to try to help them solve that case rather than simply consult Shin'ichi/Conan. Even when she's helping her father, I don't think she has any pretense that she's doing anything more than helping (even when she's leading the investigation, practically).

Why "besides" the Convenience Store case? That's a good start already.
Funny how you always use that case to prove your points, but when it can be used by the opposite side, you want to exclude it.

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Oh well, I feel like I'll start repeating myself now. So I'd rather stop this discussion here.
However, just to clear things up, in case someone wants to accuse me of something again:
- To the question: "Who is smarter, Gin or Ran?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Of course Gin is smarter. No wait, Gin is smart, full stop. No need to use the comparative form here."
- To the question: "Whom do you think will discover Shinichi's identity first?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Ran actually knew the dude for 17 years and she keeps investigating him, while Gin doesn't even know/remember who the heck Shinichi is. So of course Ran.. unless Gin starts remembering Shinichi and investigating him, then we could start comparing and speculating.

Done.

[xGinx]

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Oh well, I feel like I'll start repeating myself now. So I'd rather stop this discussion here.
However, just to clear things up, in case someone wants to accuse me of something again:
- To the question: "Who is smarter, Gin or Ran?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Of course Gin is smarter. No wait, Gin is smart, full stop. No need to use the comparative form here."
- To the question: "Whom do you think will discover Shinichi's identity first?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Ran actually knew the dude for 17 years and she keeps investigating him, while Gin doesn't even know/remember who the heck Shinichi is. So of course Ran.. unless Gin starts remembering Shinichi and investigating him, then we could start comparing and speculating.

Done.

Agreed.

[randompi314159]

---------

Oh well, I feel like I'll start repeating myself now. So I'd rather stop this discussion here.
However, just to clear things up, in case someone wants to accuse me of something again:
- To the question: "Who is smarter, Gin or Ran?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Of course Gin is smarter. No wait, Gin is smart, full stop. No need to use the comparative form here."
- To the question: "Whom do you think will discover Shinichi's identity first?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Ran actually knew the dude for 17 years and she keeps investigating him, while Gin doesn't even know/remember who the heck Shinichi is. So of course Ran.. unless Gin starts remembering Shinichi and investigating him, then we could start comparing and speculating.

Done.

Agreed.

Yeah, basically that's what has been said, in a nutshell.

[Abs.]

Neither has figured out Conan/Shinichi's secret yet!  Who will be the winner!?!?!?   :o

Perhaps I should have been more clear on the opening post.  I meant "Who will be the winner!?!?!?" as in, "Who will be the winner of this poll?"  The "Neither has figured out Conan/Shinichi's secret yet!" was just thrown in there to make the poll/discussion more exciting.

[bluekaitou1412]

This is an intricate plan started years ago by Abs.

Beware people. He wants to take over.

Nothing to see here, people!  Move along, move along now... - Abs.

[Nyarl]

I didn't vote for Ran.

How can I be sure about that? Escpecially that you ignored the first time I pointed out the possibility that you did..

She did solve it, the who, the where he was hiding, and the why after Aya's shifts, before Shin'ichi give any hints. What she wasn't clear about was why the culprit couldn't try to put the boxes back, and whether to prove it rather than rely on people accepting her deduction.

Then I guess we have different conceptions of "solving a case". To me, if you can't find the proof, it means you still didn't fully solve the case; hence the "quasi" prefix I keep using.

Of course, Ran found the proof, too. She just didn't before Shin'ichi's hint to, "Think about what would worry the culprit." Of course, that means she could never have figured out how to flush out the culprit on her own, despite her quickly applying that very abstract hint. We know this for a fact, because of the logic of entrenched bias.

But, no, you're right, the real order of problem solvers is Genta>Yamamura>Kogoro>Megure>Sonoko>Jodie>everyone else>Conan. Like Jodie, they solve all those simple cases easily and just play dumb to make Conan feel better about himself. Conan quasi solving them (many he doesn't solve without hints from other characters' tangential conversations, clearly "doesn't" implies "can't", so he's clearly only quasi solving them) doesn't prove he's smarter than them.

Sarcasm just doesn't work here. Because you're comparing the fact that Shinichi deliberately gave Ran hints with the fact that Conan himself notices hints or uses people's futile remarks and actually turns them into useful hints.

100% special pleading. How is the intent of the person giving the hint relevant to the intelligence of the problem solver? The relevant issue is whether the problem solver needed the hint to solve the problem or would've eventually figured it out without prompting from the hint. Assuming Ran couldn't but some other character could is called bias (unless you have a reason better than, "It's Ran, so it's obviously so.")

She would hang out with him all the time as he aged, too. Why should she have a special memory of what he looked like at one particular age, rather than become used to what he looks like now?

I actually wish you were using sarcasm here, because this is the weakest argument you've given so far.
Do you mean she has amnesia and can't remember her best friend's childhood-face? Okay.

The first time she saw through him, she saw that his behavior and intelligence were similar, not his looks. Ran didn't note his similar appearance until the second time she saw through him, when she saw the old photograph with them and the magician. Ran clearly didn't have a good memory of what Shin'ichi looked like at 7. That much is not even arguable. Whether that's normal, impaired brain function, or arbitrary writing is a different argument I guess I started early...

Never. Ran hasn't shown the least bit interest in feeling the "satisfaction/victory" herself. Quite the contrary, in Convenience Store it was Shin'ichi who wanted her to have the chance feel that, after she told him that she's not an overconfident detective. Instances where Ran is thinking, "What would Shin'ichi do," were always a result of the desire to help someone else, not the desire to actually be like or be liked by Shin'ichi.

Never? Didn't she say she wanted to feel, at least once, the same satisfactory feeling after solving a case?

No, I'm pretty sure you're misremembering something Shin'ichi told her in Convenience Store as something she explicitly agreed she wanted. (Arguing it was implied would be weak because Ran would jump into action once she figured out how to expose the culprit simply to vindicate Aya. She wouldn't need an adrenaline junkie reason, too.) If there is some case where she did want to feel that way you're going to have to tell me where it is so I can reference it.

Name the cases besides Convenience Store Ran actually tried to solve herself. Remember, as Sora likes to belabor, it took Jodie's coaxing to even get her to try to help them solve that case rather than simply consult Shin'ichi/Conan. Even when she's helping her father, I don't think she has any pretense that she's doing anything more than helping (even when she's leading the investigation, practically).

Why "besides" the Convenience Store case? That's a good start already.
Funny how you always use that case to prove your points, but when it can be used by the opposite side, you want to exclude it.

I gave a reason to exclude it, "Jodie's coaxing". That pretty clearly proves you can't use this case as evidence that Ran is actually interested in solving cases in general, since if it were left to her, she'd have consulted an expert rather than tried to solve it herself. (Can you see the difference between that argument and your special pleading about hints above?) Also, if one data point proves Ran is interested in solving cases, regardless of all other considerations, how do you stand by your apology for Haibara? You can't make a double standard more blatant than that.

- To the question: "Who is smarter, Gin or Ran?" -> I reply: "WTH? Why are you even comparing these two? Of course Gin is smarter. No wait, Gin is smart, full stop. No need to use the comparative form here."

Exactly the Ran bashing that made Ran's intelligence itself, not just its relation to Gin's, the issue. No, I'm not going to let you sneak in jabs like that without counterargument just because arguing would be "off topic".