Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
dccd wrote:I think the latest 2 chapters kinda debunked Rumi=Vermouth.
1) The Scars
In theory its still possible that Vermouth somehow was hurt, but the chances for that runout are below 1% in my eyes.
And one must assume she would colour her hair since she was shown nude - so it doesnt make sense for her keeping her wig if she had one.
2) She looks up for Shinichi on the list
Well... she just investigated her whole arc about Shinichi, but yeah - she really needs to look up for the 100th time on the list if he really
was marked as dead.
Sounds legit, doesnt it?
3) She asks Haibara
She asks Haibara about having her met Shinichi. Well... this question kinda only makes sense if Vermouth is under amnesia and forget about
everything so far happened.
1) You already admitted that it's not unreasonable, so not much of a counter argument.
2) Could simply be a mislead and she was actually looking up another APTX victim.
3) Another potential mislead to shift her interest in Agasa's neighbor from Subaru to Shinichi.
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:That is, if the two of you are okay with me attempting to prompt responses and otherwise facilitate discussion.
So long as you are pleased, I'm okay with it.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
There are several problems with this Verumi theory.
1) Rumi's scars, they are in all over her body, so if Rumi is Vermouth how did she get those?
2) To think that "when Shinichi's name is thrown around" Vermouth is looking at the APTX list is too unrealistic. If she was looking-up someone other than Shinichi, why she had to do it just after Shinichi's name was being tossed around? Makes no sense.
3) Don't forget that Shinichi Kudo is the original neighbor of Agasa. So anyone who is gathering info on Shinichi and knows that Agasa was his ally, would get closer/ try to get closer to Agasa for more info about him. So Rumi is locked onto Shinichi not Subaru.
4) Has Vermouth ever shown avant grade knowledge in solving mysteries using the theory of stable and unstable equilibrium?(Burning tent case)
5) If she's really vermouth then and she's searching the original Asaka who was APTXed and survived, then it implies that BO would put Asaka's name in that list, but i Asaka's name was hidden in such a way how did BO knew about that? Also to expect APTX version ! had glitches when we have a sure shot death caused by it is too unrealistic.
Zerozaki4869 wrote:There are several problems with this Verumi theory.
1) Rumi's scars, they are in all over her body, so if Rumi is Vermouth how did she get those?
2) To think that "when Shinichi's name is thrown around" Vermouth is looking at the APTX list is too unrealistic. If she was looking-up someone other than Shinichi, why she had to do it just after Shinichi's name was being tossed around? Makes no sense.
3) Don't forget that Shinichi Kudo is the original neighbor of Agasa. So anyone who is gathering info on Shinichi and knows that Agasa was his ally, would get closer/ try to get closer to Agasa for more info about him. So Rumi is locked onto Shinichi not Subaru.
4) Has Vermouth ever shown avant grade knowledge in solving mysteries using the theory of stable and unstable equilibrium?(Burning tent case)
5) If she's really vermouth then and she's searching the original Asaka who was APTXed and survived, then it implies that BO would put Asaka's name in that list, but i Asaka's name was hidden in such a way how did BO knew about that? Also to expect APTX version ! had glitches when we have a sure shot death caused by it is too unrealistic.
1) Scars in the back/waist could be older than MT... the arm cuts/scratches/scars however is yet to be determined.
2) So you are assuming two things:
- There has to be a specific time when she can look up whatever she wants
- She knew about the Shinichi news before looking at the list
3) Or not.
4) Has she shown anything that contradicts it during cases?
5) So you are assuming that they have to know the full name to document it on a list?
Also to expect APTX version ! had glitches when we have a sure shot death caused by it is too unrealistic.
so you are saying Sherry's drug killing off all the mice except for one is unrealistic too?
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
MeiTanteixX wrote:1) Scars in the back/waist could be older than MT... the arm cuts/scratches/scars however is yet to be determined.
There's no indication Vermouth got some new scars following MT. The gist of your argument is that she could have gotten some scars in this time frame (or at least that's what I'm getting, you're being somewhat coy here tbh). Just because something could have happened isn't a good argument and it's not an evidence.
3) Or not.
What indication is there that Rumi's target is Subaru? iirc there's something in your theory that Vermouth has shown some mild interest in Subaru back in her last case, right? But if that's all you have to go on, then it looks like circular reasoning. [Rumi's interested in Subaru and not Shinichi] because [Rumi is Vermouth] thus [Rumi's interested in Subaru and not Shinichi] etc.
4) Has she shown anything that contradicts it during cases?
Has Naeko shown anything that contradicts her being a newly enlisted BO member? Has Korn shown anything that contradicts him being a spy from the Mossad?
What indication has there been that Vermouth is capable of all of Rumi's feats? Your argument again falls into that Vermouth could have those feats, thus she's still a good Rumi candidate, even though by this point the evidence stacks against this idea.
And I gotta agree with dccd that it'd be exceptionally silly for Vermouth to be asking Haibara about meeting Shinichi.
Your defenses are quite feeble as Kor has indicated. What I presume that ground-work and Value is lacking in your theory while you want me to play point counter point to further your cause.
a)Where is the evidence that Vermouth got matching scars? (I can say there's no way she wouldn't have gotten it and I dare you to prove me wrong.)
b) If Vermouth was looking up real Asaka while cosplaying Rumi, why that telling smile appeared on her face?(If you're to be believed then she wasn't looking up Shinichi and ad a hard time to find real Asaka thus enlisting Conan's help. So Finding Asaka is also eliminated.)
c)Or yes, infact the the APTX list totally substantiates my Theory. Look at the pic. of the list, Shinichi's name is positioned in middle(she scrolled it up to get it at the middle of the screen, and it's a common practice more common than "could haves", to scroll-up the intended object to the middle for better viewing.)
d) Why didn't she assisted Bourbon during the Asaca s9ong case, if she was such a Physics genius, she wan ted to get the hell out of there as soon as possible, she could have hinted it to Bourbon and get it over with. Or using your could have fallacy, I can say did Chianti has showed any reason for not being suspected as an FSB agent?
e)I said to expect the similar glitch of APTX V-2 in APTX V-1 is unfounded.
Kor wrote:There's no indication Vermouth got some new scars following MT. The gist of your argument is that she could have gotten some scars in this time frame (or at least that's what I'm getting, you're being somewhat coy here tbh). Just because something could have happened isn't a good argument and it's not an evidence.
You have taken quite the liberty to add words to my mouth here. I merely said "it's yet to be determined", take it as you will(I'm not obliged to share everything).
Also, could you explain to me where you have gotten the impression that we are talking about evidence? There's none whatsoever for any of your or my arguments. You cannot debunk my theory just as much as I can't prove them.
Kor wrote:What indication is there that Rumi's target is Subaru? iirc there's something in your theory that Vermouth has shown some mild interest in Subaru back in her last case, right? But if that's all you have to go on, then it looks like circular reasoning. [Rumi's interested in Subaru and not Shinichi] because [Rumi is Vermouth] thus [Rumi's interested in Subaru and not Shinichi] etc.
No, as a matter of fact. My argument has always been that Rumi's actions has always had the alternative that it's about Subaru, since all her activities surrounds not just Conan/Shinichi, but also the DB. File 1006 clearly suggested that she is interested in Agasa's neighbor, now as for if it's really Shinichi(who she lead the conversation with) or not, it's up for interpretation.
Kor wrote:Has Naeko shown anything that contradicts her being a newly enlisted BO member? Has Korn shown anything that contradicts him being a spy from the Mossad?
What indication has there been that Vermouth is capable of all of Rumi's feats?
Yes and yes. Doesn't still mean that it's impossible, but they have contradicted that notion. Has Vermouth contradicted it during a case?
I'm assuming you are looking for these specific feats below:
- Fighting capabilities
Vermouth is physically trained to the point of strong endurance and acrobatic skills(even while having serious wounds). Leaves the option open for more types of training.
- Deductive skills
We have literally no scenario on that(other than File 955-957) to say anything. Vermouth's actions has always been played behind the scenes for the most part of the story, so we were never given the opportunity to see her acting freely in a case(without having to uphold an act). In File 955-957, she relied on Bourbon and Conan(who she knew were capable of solving the case, especially together). Whether it's due to her not being able to herself anyway or not, that's again, up for anyone's interpretation.
Overview of the main pros and cons for "Rumi = Vermouth": (which again should be noted that this does not mean that this is evidence for or against)
Spoiler:
What challenges that theory:
- Arm cuts/scars.
What this theory answers:
- Dark behavior.
- Knowledge of Conan's intelligence.
- Access to the updated version of APTX list.
Everything else is just interpretation-based.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
DCUniverseAficionado wrote:That is, if the two of you are okay with me attempting to prompt responses and otherwise facilitate discussion.
Do not worry about that. In fact, feel free to notify me if you guys happen to spot grammatical/syntactic errors and/or fallacy in my posts. I'm not a native English speaker so miscommunications are bound to happen.
MeiTanteixX wrote:I have already layed out my arguments about Rumi's actions and her potential motives. If one wants to be sure about Rumi not being Vermouth, they can try debunking this perspective: My thoughts on Rumi (Up to File 995)
If one is arguing about developments after File 995, then I guess you will have to ask for my opinion on them directly(Since I haven't made an update post for beyond those chapters).
Well, I just tried to give a decent answer to DCUniverseAficionado's question. That said, for the link you posted...
(Countering points No.1 -> 3 are strictly for your speculations regarding Case Files 954-957)
Spoiler:
⦁ Countering point No.1: I completely disagree with your interpretation in that long-winded part, especially "...Vermouth's actions suggested that she wanted to get involved in Bourbon's mission in order to investigate Kohji's dying message" : The manga spelled out pretty clearly that Vermouth hastily put on Azusa's disguise because she simply couldn't trust Bourbon to investigate the song by himself without harming Ran and Conan/Shinichi, NOT because she herself was interested in Kouji's dying message. I mean, the panels you showed were literally like that. And it made sense with what Vermouth said at the end of File 800, when she decided to let him stay near Kogoro's office without keeping a close eye on his daily activities.
A bit off-topic but that conversation in File 955 confirmed my belief that the relationship between Bourbon and Vermouth is purely between colleagues and Vermouth still doesn't know Rei's true character (as in "a guy on the side of good") since she worries about Ran and Conan's safety around him. All things considered, it's probably the main reason why Rei's cover hasn't been questioned yet unlike Akai's and no, the BO became suspicious of Akai before Camel's blunder
⦁ Countering point No.2: If Vermouth DID have other intentions to disguise herself, why would she even lie to her partner in crime AND not do her research on the disguised target properly in advance ? She doesn't seem that sloppy and predictable, even in my eyes. Plus, I think you misunderstood the beginning of File 954 : Vermouth recited the mission = order to both of them, that explained why she was with Bourbon and offered him a helping hand in order to approach the target with ease; she even gave the reason herself. If Vermouth herself did have some interest in the Kouji case as a whole, they'd have devised a different plan so that the so-called "boss's favorite" would have been the one investigating the 'ASACA' song, not Bourbon.
⦁ Countering point No.3: The panel where Vermouth wondered who Okiya was (File 955), was a part of Gosho's routine of giving a usual summary/basic intro of the previous chapter to the readers in Vermouth's POV. It was also the first time Vermouth met Okiya in person. Naturally, she had to ask Bourbon for more info in case Azusa had met Okiya before. Besides, after File 898 I doubt she pays any more interest in Bourbon's wild-goose chase with supposedly-dead-for-good Akai. If Vermouth wants to investigate Okiya for the Kouji case, shouldn't she discuss with Bourbon first, given that he is a BO informant/partner AND his cover is more solid than a newly-transfered teacher AND he doesn't show his "personal interest" in the Kouji case as much ? Until the manga says otherwise, I have the right to remain skeptical.
⦁ Countering point No.4: Rumi's indifference to the murder in Case Files 978-980 is a depiction of a morally grey character, not a villain. She didn't know the exact time the murder would take place, and she was a passerby and an outsider without some concrete evidence of an uncertain crime. I would do the same as her if I had my own reasons for not getting involved in unnecessary ruckus as much as I could. In Rumi's position, she could only ask for someone who could solve the case by being there at the right time. In fact, subduing the murderer was a heroic act coming from her. Vermouth would have just let the murderer run away given that he only used the bag to clear his escape route or, in BO's typical style, kill him.
⦁ Countering point No.5: Rumi hasn't showed any sign of "personally interested in the dying message that involves 'ASACA'" yet as stated in your own words :
MeiTanteixX wrote:There's therefore a possibility that she (Vermouth) involved herself because she was personally interested in the dying message that involves "ASACA", just like Rumi.
Would you please show me the correct panels (and not your own interpretations) that gave you such impressions (emphasizing the "personally interested") ? This Rumi=Vermouth theory post was before File 1000, right ? At the time based on what was presented in the manga, no one was sure of identity of the person uploading the info regarding Haneda Kouji case; and in Rumi's case the most significant hint so far was when she reacted alarmingly out-of-character upon hearing words like "one eye" or "prosthetic eye". To put it bluntly :
- Do I think Rumi is directly involved in the Haneda Kouji case ? Yes.
- Do I think the thing inside Rumi's pocket in File 989 is related to the Haneda Kouji case ? Probably yes.
- Do I think Rumi is "personally interested in the dying message" ? Maybe.
- Do I think Vermouth is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related ? Still uncertain at this point.
- Do I think Vermouth, of all people, can have an out-of-character moment (that has nothing to do with the people she cares about) when she's under disguise ? Hardly.
- Do I think Rumi=Vermouth in disguise ? No.
- Do I think your reasoning is strong enough to support the theory Rumi=Vermouth ? No.
Don't get me wrong, I tried to buy into your Rumi=Vermouth theory yet my impressions after reading your linked post word for word were that your choice of words was a bit misleading, your reasoning was hypothetical and the whole base was supported by pure speculations on your part (Especially the "Rumi's favorite drink is whisky and I believe she's telling the truth so she must be interested in Okiya from the beginning because Gosho is being cheeky" whereas it's served as a crucial hint to solve only the current case, not to mention that Rumi isn't drawn to be drinking anything in future cases.) Tthis is getting a bit like those HxH arguments. To make myself clear, I got the feeling after reading your old post that you theorized Rumi=Vermouth in disguise first, then tried to select and interpret as many manga details as you could in order to support it. Overall it's a good method, but I found the subjectivity in your post quite prominent, and that hindered me from accepting this theory.
Funny that there are apparent issues I've prepared beforehand that work against your theory, and your examples supporting it aren't absolute. (If you can't tell from all of my questions addressed to your posts, that's my cue of "I think your argument is flawed and here's why")
MeiTanteixX wrote:That's just an assumption. It's not a fact that she is testing Conan. Her helping Conan with the cases doesn't necessarily mean that it has something to do with her goal. In File 966, she asked for the whole DB group's help, not specifically just Conan. In File 978, she planned for the whole DB group's arrival, not just Conan. In File 987, she was chaperoning the whole DB group, not just Conan. In other words, just based on her actions, her motive for being in Teitan Elementary can range from Conan to Haibara and the rest of the DB.
No. Rumi=Vermouth in disguise because she suspects Okiya to be related to the Kouji case and approaches the DB group to get some info on him, that is an assumption. And I didn't say my original point was a given fact, it was simply my personal observation. I thought it was obvious enough that DCUniverseAficionado asked for my opinions on the matter.
To express my concern about the second bolded part without it becoming another dreadful wall of text, allow me to present my interpretation of Vermouth's thought if she actually disguises as Rumi in order to approach the DB group because Haibara's existence isn't allowed to exist in Vermouth's world (multiple times proven in the manga) :
It's been a month since I started becoming an elementary school teacher. The kids would never suspect a dojikko teacher for a BO spy. Those documentaries I had Bourbon collect before finally paid off. But these kids are so noisy. And they smells ! When will they talk about that guy (Okiya) ? At least invite me to that professor's house in return for the time I invited you to my apartment, you ungrateful little !@#% !! I even cooked dinner for them... I'm hungry. My feet hurt (standing too long in class). These little !@#% are too loud. I wish I was at my true place drinking some martini and admiring the landscape at night... Didn't know this teaching job is so stressful, and I thought babysitting Bourbon was hard enough. I should have picked a better disguise. Well, no use crying over spilt milk. I bet today those !@#% hanging around my sweet Silver Bullet will talk about him (Okiya), or better yet, run into him so that I can put on that air of mystery that gives a woman her allure. He seemed smart from the last time I saw him... Well I've only seen him once but still... There's a high chance he has teacher fetish on top of glass fetish ! Then it'll be an easy win. Hopefully my Silver Bullet and Gin still haven't figured out my objective up until now. Yeah... They probably haven't... My disguise is perfect. I did check my horoscope this morning. Today is my lucky day ! I CAN FEEL IT !!
God I hate the localized version of Vermouth's motto, and I thought the names were bad enough. In case you question my "horoscope" part, I must say this version of Vermouth would need a great great great amount of luck for everything to work in her favor.
MeiTanteixX wrote:I assume you are basing that on File 954. That was an exception. She was aware of here unpreparedness as Azusa and didn't intend to hide something she knew Conan would eventually find out through her expected mistakes. Give me another case where she was okay with revealing her identity while disguised.
Exactly. An exception based on spur of the moment since Vermouth didn't expect both Ran and Conan to get involved in a case that caught the BO's attention (and it's File 955, just so you know). That was why the entire Azusa facade happened. She said it, I explained it above in the 'spoiler' part. Why did you think otherwise ?, that's my question. As for your request, I merely offered my thoughts to DCUniverseAficionado's question. Based on your entire assumption that Vermouth disguises as Rumi because she met Okiya AND she is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related, you should be the one giving me another instance supporting this assumption aside from Case Files 954-957 since you proposed it first.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Second bolded statement "Other BO members would question why Vermouth decides to play an elementary school teacher now of all time" assumes that she isn't hiding it from the BO, like she did during Vermouth arc.
Oh ? Shall we examine the consequences in both cases thoroughly if Vermouth is indeed Rumi then, because I imagine both are too risky for someone as discreet as Vermouth to take :
- If you mean she hides her disguising as Rumi now it's unlikely that the BO let it slide. Because she did hide her true objectives during Vermouth arc that Gin became extremely irritated and suspicious as she didn't report to the higher-ups about what she was doing, hence the question "Do you know a guy named Shinichi?" After Vermouth arc ? Well, thanks to Calvados's death and being paranoid with style, the BO probably had some idea about Vermouth especially now that Kogoro Mori supposedly earns her latest affection. I found Gin's distrust of Vermouth since Kir arc combined with his lines at the end of File 953 pretty telling, as it looks like Mori is officially on their list now. His profile is quite impressive as well : getting involved with Kir, with the FBIs, with Vermouth, and now somewhat with a case Rum committed 17 years ago. Keep in mind that Gin straight off decided to kill both Mori and Conan in Kir arc. Do you think she would let Gin get any more funny ideas than that by secretly acting alongside Conan for an unspecified period because of some info that the elementary kids might know about some guy based on a mere doubt ?
You assuming Vermouth repeating this farce bases entirely on your interpretations of her lines in Files 954-957 and I countered them in the 'spoiler' part above.
- If the BO knew Vermouth disguises as an elementary school teacher, shouldn't they get suspicious of her choice to pick Conan's school of all places ? And after getting involved in 3 unrelated cases, Conan's existence can escape their supervising and paranoia ? Not to mention the chance of meeting Kuroda in Case Files 987-989 was low on her part so the option "getting any info from some police officer who might be interested in the Kouji case" was even more absurd than from elementary students, unless you also thought Shiratori was another disguise. His rambling about the date with Kobayashi-sensei was too cute to be from Vermouth IMO Furthermore, confronting a police agent right off the bat only makes her more suspicious in Conan's eyes, so it backfires and she has to overcome more hurdles. The more I look at your arguments, the less I think "Hey this is totally Vermouth's style".
MeiTanteixX wrote:Then what's the "not-in-between" explanation to her not sensing Vermouth in File 852?
In File 987 Haibara did detect a similar "BO's aura" feeling from Rumi but did not think she was someone dangerous. This has never happened before, not in Vermouth arc, not in the Bell Tree Express and this event is NOT like the Cherry Blossom case (I pay extra attention to my favorite characters after all) That's what I mean by "no inbetween" : either Haibara knew that particular scent from Vermouth=DANGER and became scared or she didn't. Do you have any reasonable speculation for this sudden change ?
MeiTanteixX wrote:She was wary of her during File 987-988, and went as far as to make Rum suspicions. Just in general(unrelated to who Rumi is), you would expect there to be a reason for why she made a complete turnaround(in File 989) after getting BO triggered(in File 987). Why aren't you asking yourself that first?
No she DID NOT think/do that in File 988, that was Conan hence his warning to Haibara in File 989. And I welcome everyone's opinion on this matter.
Gosho draws the specific type of eye expressions (Ai's in File 988) to portray the character is extremely scared of something, another example is Conan when he knew Bourbon discovered that Kusuda shot himself inside his car in File 894. Haibara was indeed wary of Rumi's strange behavior though.
More specifically, Haibara observed Rumi's weird moment and took note only that moment, i.e. cannot see out of her right eye. There are multiple ways that can cause this without some obvious facial alterations (this is only a quick research) : damaged visual parts of the brain (Cortical visual impairment, Migraine-Aura phase), a genetic risk factor (Glaucoma), a disease's sign/symptom (Cataract), etc. Haibara has considerable medical and biological knowledge (displayed in multiple instances such as Conan's condition in File 253, Shiratori's condition in File 370, her own words in File 360, Takagi's speculated condition in File 808,...) so she should have a better idea about this specific symptom. Of course this alone doesn't explain Haibara's decision to trust Rumi. But at least Rumi's weird out moment with the eye can be a real deal.
FYI, I did ask myself first, then offered my thought on this particular detail to DCUniverseAficionado's question. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have bothered to mention it as a red flag in one of my posts.
Now for me to consider the option Vermouth in disguise fakes it like with her martial art skills, two apparent issues appear :
- Vermouth must be certained that an expected survivor from the case 17 years ago 1. Confronted Rum 2. Knew his prosthetic eye <-- Explain Vermouth faking the visual impair symptom like Rum in order to lure that survivor out and/or investigate Okiya. Okiya option is unlikely for the former, given that : 1. He's too young to encounter Rum at that time 2. He moved into Kudo's house before the ASACA-related cases happened and didn't get involved until Vermouth met him during the BO's mission, not to mention there's hardly anyone Conan knows having a prosthetic eye or being directly involved in anything-ASACA-related to reason Okiya staying in Kudo's house WAY before Vermouth's meeting with Okiya.
As for the latter, she must have a good idea that Okiya's qualified for these traits to be worthy of her own investigation judging from her own knowledge and not from the readers 1. He must appear in more than one case involving anything-ASACA-related after Case Files 954-957 (not counting the Case Files 948-950 because the dying message is similar but not the entire case; and Mori didn't solve that case) 2. He must know that Conan/the Detective Boys has read the Haneda Kouji case 17 years ago. 3. He must understand the context behind "ASACA RUM" because normal people don't associate a type of liqueur with a person, assuming Vermouth thinks Okiya =/= Akai then it doesn't guarantee Vermouth putting unnecessary effort on gathering information.
- Vermouth must be positive that the survivor would intentionally hang around some elementary students or Prof.Agasa for unknown reasons to disguise as a school teacher herself and lure the survivor out as her true objective given that 1. Gathering information is mainly covered by Bourbon, and he has better insight than her (from her own opinion in File 955) 2. She knows some suspicious person who has been trying to get involved with Conan/Kudo's family for 17 years, even before Shinichi was born, who couldn't be Okiya since it wasn't his fault that his original apartment was burnt down and Conan actively offered him to stay in Kudo's house.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Vermouth has shown great endurance(File 434) and acrobatic skills(File 354). That shouldn't limit her from also being a good fighter just in general.
Quite a short-sighted assumption, and may I suggest it displays a rather biased view of Vermouth coming from you ? In the manga so far there's hardly a hint suggesting Vermouth as being at least familiar with close combat (unlike Bourbon in his official debut case), let alone being so skilled at martial art that you can fake it on normal people. Good at handling firearms =/= hand-to-hand combat, same for acrobatic skills =/= offensive techniques. If you seriously think having acrobatic skills only is a BIG indication of being a martial artist then I can't help you. Good motor coordination is a typical attribute belonged in lots of these activities : performing arts, sport in general, parkour, martial arts, military training, street fighting,... And I know for certain that excelling in each of these activities requires a great deal of physical as well as mental endurance. So are the two traits you mentioned enough to hint at Vermouth having superb combat expertise ? No.
If you plan to convince me otherwise, you can post a serious demonstration of an acrobatic gymnast/a cheerleader/a circus performer but not a martial artist with similar moves as long as they guarantee to render a man unconscious with one (1) decisive elbow strike like Rumi in File 980, bonus points for the person being female. And I don't buy Hollywood "techniques".
But then again, this is just for debate fun so you have the right to ignore my suggestion. It doesn't mean I find all of your arguments plausible.
In case you ask for another example in the manga from my viewpoint, let me present these panels (File 794) :
I could only deduce that Bourbon was at least familiar with close combat taking these factors into account :
+ His quick reflex to dodge the attack
+ Him faking it with ease and alarming the others to intercept Banba's further actions
+ Gosho didn't show Bourbon's expression when dodging the attack (as if to hide the fact that he's not an ordinary waiter)
+ His justifiable contempt and deliberate ruse to provoke Banba were glaringly obvious in the whole case.
There was no strong indication that Bourbon could handle a serious fight until later we got to see a pretty convincing demonstration proving that he's quite skilled at boxing. My point is, I can consider multiple possibilities, but without substantial clues I'll remain skeptical to all of them.
Let me throw in some hot-headed Heiji's action (File 316) for good measure. I hope you don't think Heiji is actually a martial artist now. Considering his character I guess he's pretty good at street fights on top of being a skillful swordsman, but that doesn't mean much compared to Rumi's feat.
And now for some Bonus :
Spoiler:
⦁ Bonus round No.1: Vermouth (the time she disguised as Araide) was still shown as herself with real face/body and her body didn't have any scar while being alone, unlike Rumi at the end of File 1005. Because I see no drink on the table, it's an indication for me to take Rumi's line about whisky being her favorite with a grain of salt, you know, in the same fashion you believe Vermouth is "personally interested" in the dying message of Kouji murder case based on a casual comment in only one case so far. And Vermouth wearing such unsexy undergarment ? Unbelievable even for someone like me.
⦁ Bonus round No.2: The ASACA RUM case is 17 years old, setting before Shinichi was born. If Vermouth was indeed interested in it, why didn't she say/do anything related to it in the past arcs given that she appeared in every one of those ? I definitely don't see any vague hint in Vermouth arc (you know the very arc where she was discreet about her personal interests), or Kir arc, OR Bourbon arc. Are there other instances that make you think Vermouth is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related outside of the particular 'ASACA song' mission = a BO order itself ?
⦁ Bonus round No.3: To disguise as someone else you will need a sample. Creating an entirely new person with several characteristics and quirks from scratch isn't THAT easy, you know. If Vermouth disguises as "Rumi" now that means there exists an "original/prototype Rumi" whom she knew beforehand. Another thing : Kuroda was fixated on Rumi's face and envisioned Haneda Kouji murder together (File 987). The name is one thing, but paying attention to a stranger's face and then linking it with another murder case requires some sort of reasons, including the most trivial ones. So Vermouth in your theory must have known the relationship between Kuroda and this "prototype Rumi" in order to bravely confront him on such a random encounter. Keep in mind that Kuroda was supposed to be in a 10-year long coma before transfering to Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department. Does that mean Vermouth possesses such godly omniscience surpassing even Conan the protagonist ? I should have known this manga's real title is "Vermouth the greatest Mary Sue", not "Detective Conan".
⦁ Bonus round No.4: For Rumi's being aware of Conan's detective skills, I did consider a possible answer (File 771). But does that mean I really believe it to be true, or make a theory based on a one-timed remark ? Nope.
Kokuriko wrote:
could only deduce that Bourbon was at least familiar with close combat
They want us to like him and to make him a good person smart person can play gitar know close combat cery storng and know everything but in reality the opposite in these worda is the right. He doesn't know anything very stupid and cannot do anythong right
Kokuriko wrote:In fact, feel free to notify me if you guys happen to spot grammatical/syntactic errors and/or fallacy in my posts. I'm not a native English speaker so miscommunications are bound to happen.
Gotcha.
Before I start replying to your points, I want you to know that I have read everything you said, but I deemed a lot of things irrelevant to my argument and I'm only picking out what is related to my theory. I also want to clarify that what I have presented about Rumi is not meant to be an absolute argument, but rather meant to be a presentation of the perspective I'm currently following due to x and y reasons. I'm pointing this out because you gave me the strong impression that you think I'm trying to present the ultimate truth(even though I explicitly said it's a "perspective"). Although it may seem like I'm being subjective in the Rum arc discussion posts, it wasn't intended as such, and it's merely the result of me focusing on the idea I'm suggesting(and not make the text extra longer than it already is by addressing all the uncertainty factors). I'm not really favoring my theories/interpretations over others for no reason, and if I were given a strong reason to dismiss them, I would gladly throw them away without second thought.
anyway, here it goes...
File 954-957:
Spoiler:
Kokuriko wrote:"...Vermouth's actions suggested that she wanted to get involved in Bourbon's mission in order to investigate Kohji's dying message" : The manga spelled out pretty clearly that Vermouth hastily put on Azusa's disguise because she simply couldn't trust Bourbon to investigate the song by himself without harming Ran and Conan/Shinichi, NOT because she herself was interested in Kouji's dying message. I mean, the panels you showed were literally like that. And it made sense with what Vermouth said at the end of File 800, when she decided to let him stay near Kogoro's office without keeping a close eye on his daily activities.
You should have noted here that I said "Vermouth's actions suggested", meaning that I'm talking about her actions, and not her words. Just because she mentioned the promise from File 800 doesn't mean that she couldn't have lied about her motive for coming. Either way, my argument that her actions suggest that she wanted to investigate the dying message is not faulty and it was even suggested within the manga itself. Conan himself shared his objective perspective on Vermouth's actions in File 958.
Kokuriko wrote:If Vermouth DID have other intentions to disguise herself, why would she even lie to her partner in crime AND not do her research on the disguised target properly in advance ?
Her hiding her motives is not unheard of(that's pretty much Vermouth in a nutshell during Vermouth arc), especially from her blackmailing-partner(that already knows enough about her to the point of making her point a gun to his head). Her unprepearedness could easily be due to time constraint. We don't really know how much time passed from when the mission was announced, to when the mission started.
Kokuriko wrote:I think you misunderstood the beginning of File 954 : Vermouth recited the mission = order to both of them
Now that you point this out, that is possible too, but hardly a confirmed fact to say that I misunderstood.
Kokuriko wrote:If Vermouth wants to investigate Okiya for the Kouji case
This is simply wrong. I never said that her Okiya interest is connected to her Kohji case interest.
Kokuriko wrote:Would you please show me the correct panels (and not your own interpretations) that gave you such impressions (emphasizing the "personally interested") ?
No panel and what we are saying is exclusive from our interpretations. The panel I would point to is this:
Kokuriko wrote:Rumi's indifference to the murder in Case Files 978-980 is a depiction of a morally grey character, not a villain.
So you are saying that Vermouth is just a villain, and not a morally grey character?
Kokuriko wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:That's just an assumption. It's not a fact that she is testing Conan.
No. Rumi=Vermouth in disguise because she suspects Okiya to be related to the Kouji case and approaches the DB group to get some info on him, that is an assumption. And I didn't say my original point was a given fact, it was simply my personal observation.
Yes, it is.
likewise, I never claimed any of my interpretations as fact.
Kokuriko wrote:As for your request, I merely offered my thoughts to DCUniverseAficionado's question.
And I gave my input as per @DCUniverseAficionado's request, and was simply asking why you thought this was a common thing:
Kokuriko wrote:Besides, Vermouth has no problem letting Conan find out when she's disguising someone, with or without Ran's notice.
Kokuriko wrote:Do you think she would let Gin get any more funny ideas than that by secretly acting alongside Conan for an unspecified period because of some info that the elementary kids might know about some guy based on a mere doubt ?
Have we ever seen Gin hindering her from trying to fulfill her goals? Thought it was pretty clear that she ignored his irritation of her secrecy.
It's not a mere doubt. Vermouth has good reasons to get curious about Subaru, since he is a new detective-figure that is around Conan and Bourbon gave him dagger-stares(suggesting that the BO's best investigator might have suspected something serious). Besides, DB/Okiya is not the only reason for her to become an elementary school teacher(according to my theory). There's also the dying message investigation which I currently suspect she is approaching Conan for.
Kokuriko wrote:Furthermore, confronting a police agent right off the bat only makes her more suspicious in Conan's eyes, so it backfires and she has to overcome more hurdles.
Not if she is already trying to portray herself as Asaka with her dying-message-based name and Asaka-like disguise in order to eventually convince him that she is the victim Asaka who is trying to figure out the dying message.
Kokuriko wrote:In File 987 Haibara did detect a similar "BO's aura" feeling from Rumi but did not think she was someone dangerous. This has never happened before, not in Vermouth arc, not in the Bell Tree Express and this event is NOT like the Cherry Blossom case (I pay extra attention to my favorite characters after all) That's what I mean by "no inbetween" : either Haibara knew that particular scent from Vermouth=DANGER and became scared or she didn't. Do you have any reasonable speculation for this sudden change ?
I see. So your interpretation is that this is a completely different and new type of sensation.
In my case, I'm sticking with what we know. Just observing her behavior through out the case(File 987-989):
- File 987: she gets triggered.
- File 988: she pays attention to her eye(focusing on Rumi's head-movement) and starts to suspect it as disfunctional, as if she is suspecting her to be Rum. She keeps looking at her while Rumi speaks(while the DB is focused on Kuroda), and even at the end after Rumi helped them with the balancing toy.
- File 989: she tenses up when she sees Rumi walking up on the culprit. After that point, she suddenly made a complete 180.
In conclusion, the most reasonable explanation to me is that she indeed gave up on her BO suspicion when she saw how much Rumi cared for her student(which contradicted BO behavior). You can see how her behavior, words and focus at the end was towards Rumi and Ayumi.
Spoiler:
Kokuriko wrote:
MeiTanteixX wrote:and went as far as to make Rum suspicions.
No she DID NOT think/do that in File 988
I interpreted eye suspicion as her making connections between Rumi and Rum(since that was the recent thing she herself recalled that has to do with BO and one eye):
Spoiler:
Kokuriko wrote:In the manga so far there's hardly a hint suggesting Vermouth as being at least familiar with close combat
I'm not refuting that. I'm merely pointing out that she has made physical feats that wouldn't make it surprising if she could also physically take down her opponents. Rumi being capable of taking down her opponent is not a contradiction to her being Vermouth, it's just something that would suggest new things about Vermouth(which would just add to her current characterization rather than outright contradict it).
Kokuriko wrote:Vermouth(the time she disguised as Araide) was still shown as herself with real face/body and her body didn't have any scar while being alone, unlike Rumi at the end of File 1005.
Vermouth not wearing her Araide disguise at certain points that we have seen(during an unknown time of the day) doesn't mean that there wasn't times when she was wearing it. The scars on her arms are so far the only thing you have mentioned(that isn't interpretation-based) that actually does challenge the "Rumi = Vermouth" theory. However, until we were to get a glimpse at Vermouth's arms, they cannot debunk the theory.
Kokuriko wrote:Because I see no drink on the table, it's an indication for me to take Rumi's line about whisky being her favorite with a grain of salt
It looks like you have misunderstood my speculations regarding the "whisky" comment. Her "whisky" comment was obviously meant to help Conan. My argument was not that her favorite drink is for real whisky, but rather that Gosho might have intentionally constructed that statement to hint to her Subaru("Rye"="whisky") interest, like how he did with Jodie's "Sherry" interest(File 343).
Spoiler:
Kokuriko wrote:Are there other instances that make you think Vermouth is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related outside of the particular 'ASACA song' mission = a BO order itself ?
No, because ever since Rum arc started, she only appeared that one time before Rumi's introduction.
Kokuriko wrote:Creating an entirely new person with several characteristics and quirks from scratch isn't THAT easy, you know.
I don't know what you are basing this on, but I would imagine it actually being far more simpler, since you don't have to follow a strict script(impersonate someone with a fixed behavior and personality) and you can constantly improvise with the character you are trying to portray(since Conan and the rest doesn't know your character anyway).
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
MeiTanteixX wrote:Before I start replying to your points, I want you to know that I have read everything you said, but I deemed a lot of things irrelevant to my argument and I'm only picking out what is related to my theory.
I feel a bit sad to know that. Everything I replied to your posts ARE relevant to evaluate how plausible your arguments and how appropriate your manga examples are. If you had decided to make a selective response, then any further counter argument from me doesn't matter. Oh well, what ever will be, will be.
MeiTanteixX wrote:You should have noted here that I said "Vermouth's actions suggested", meaning that I'm talking about her actions, and not her words. Just because she mentioned the promise from File 800 doesn't mean that she couldn't have lied about her motive for coming. Either way, my argument that her actions suggest that she wanted to investigate the dying message is not faulty and it was even suggested within the manga itself. Conan himself shared his objective perspective on Vermouth's actions in File 958.
Too bad Vermouth only met Okiya in one case so far and didn't even do anything in that case. And what you presented in that theory post mainly covered her words, not actions. Since you suggested that Vermouth could lie, what is the actual merit in those manga examples you posted ?
MeiTanteixX wrote:Her hiding her motives is not unheard of(that's pretty much Vermouth in a nutshell during Vermouth arc), especially from her blackmailing-partner(that already knows enough about her to the point of making her point a gun to his head). Her unprepearedness could easily be due to time constraint. We don't really know how much time passed from when the mission was announced, to when the mission started.
You're missing my point. Vermouth would rather do the mission if she was "personally interested" in something related to it. And I explained her unpreparedness because I do think you misunderstood the self-explantory panels, just like the beginning of File 954. But sure, have it your way.
MeiTanteixX wrote:This is simply wrong. I never said that her Okiya interest is connected to her Kohji case interest.
So in your opinion she didn't get interested in Okiya because of everything-related-to-the-Haneda-Kouji-case but because of something else entirely ? I'm pretty sure she isn't interested in wanting to know more about Bourbon's affair with Akai after the Scarlet showdown.
MeiTanteixX wrote:No panel and what we are saying is exclusive from our interpretations. The panel I would point to is this:
A wonderful panel of Rei, but still irrelevant to my request. Thank you for your effort.
MeiTanteixX wrote:So you are saying that Vermouth is just a villain, and not a morally grey character?
My view : Vermouth - a sympathetic villain, but still a villain. Rumi - a morally grey character of unknown alignment (Friend? Foe? Stay tune!)
MeiTanteixX wrote: And I gave my input as per @DCUniverseAficionado's request, and was simply asking why you thought this was a common thing:
Kokuriko wrote:Besides, Vermouth has no problem letting Conan find out when she's disguising someone, with or without Ran's notice.
I didn't say it was "a common thing" in my post though. If my post had such an impression, I apologize. It also came from my own observation.
MeiTanteixX wrote: Have we ever seen Gin hindering her from trying to fulfill her goals? Thought it was pretty clear that she ignored his irritation of her secrecy.
You misunderstood my point. Gin got suspicious of Kogoro Mori (with Vermouth being one of many reasons) so if Vermouth starts doing her secret business again, he might come to "pay a visit" to Kogoro's office, and I don't know if Angel is safe in that case. Well, your version of Vermouth may not care about the consequences but mine do.
MeiTanteixX wrote:It's not a mere doubt. Vermouth has good reasons to get curious about Subaru, since he is a new detective-figure that is around Conan and Bourbon gave him dagger-stares(suggesting that the BO's best investigator might have suspected something serious). Besides, DB/Okiya is not the only reason for her to become an elementary school teacher(according to my theory). There's also the dying message investigation which I currently suspect she is approaching Conan for.
Well in Vermouth's mind that "BO's best investigator" is still getting delusions that Akai is not dead so I don't blame her if she gets fed up with whatever Bourbon is thinking. He's pretty paranoid in his own right. He's funny that way.
Sure. If your theory makes sense to you. I don't even know if you can settle for Vermouth's target to be Conan or not in this whole "investigation" so that the BO never knows her relationship with him.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Not if she is already trying to portray herself as Asaka with her dying-message-based name and Asaka-like disguise in order to eventually convince him that she is the victim Asaka who is trying to figure out the dying message.
MeiTanteixX wrote:I don't know what you are basing this on, but I would imagine it actually being far more simpler, since you don't have to follow a strict script(impersonate someone with a fixed behavior and personality) and you can constantly improvise with the character you are trying to portray(since Conan and the rest doesn't know your character anyway).
So...in the first paragraph you meant Vermouth did have an "Asaka version" in her mind to disguise as Rumi ? So "Rumi"'s original source come from "Asaka" ? If so then Vermouth must have to follow a list comprising several traits to portray "Rumi". But since you have pretty much ignored every part of my previous post addressing there are such traits that are unlikely for Vermouth to know (and to act accordingly), have it your way.
MeiTanteixX wrote:I see. So your interpretation is that this is a completely different and new type of sensation.
In my case, I'm sticking with what we know. Just observing her behavior through out the case(File 987-989):
- File 987: she gets triggered.
- File 988: she pays attention to her eye(focusing on Rumi's head-movement) and starts to suspect it as disfunctional, as if she is suspecting her to be Rum. She keeps looking at her while Rumi speaks(while the DB is focused on Kuroda), and even at the end after Rumi helped them with the balancing toy.
- File 989: she tenses up when she sees Rumi walking up on the culprit. After that point, she suddenly made a complete 180.
In conclusion, the most reasonable explanation to me is that she indeed gave up on her BO suspicion when she saw how much Rumi cared for her student(which contradicted BO behavior). You can see how her behavior, words and focus at the end was towards Rumi and Ayumi.
Spoiler:
Sure, because your case is totally what Haibara's been reacting to everytime she encounters the BO's sense=DANGER. I mean, in File 987 she didn't hide behind Conan like usual, she didn't start thinking "I'm gonna die" in her head like usual, she didn't sweat, didn't get shaken furiously and/or hide herself behind someone/clothes like usual, so to you she definitely looked like she suspected Rumi to be Rum or Vermouth or some BO agent. And then she changed her mind. So to you it's still a detail qualified to support Rumi=Vermouth theory ? Okay. I mean, what do I know ? I'm not Gosho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
MeiTanteixX wrote:I'm not refuting that. I'm merely pointing out that she has made physical feats that wouldn't make it surprising if she could also physically take down her opponents. Rumi being capable of taking down her opponent is not a contradiction to her being Vermouth, it's just something that would suggest new things about Vermouth(which would just add to her current characterization rather than outright contradict it).
I've found another reason to consider Vermouth as one of those characters I look forward to the moment they die. Okay.
MeiTanteixX wrote:Vermouth not wearing her Araide disguise at certain points that we have seen(during an unknown time of the day) doesn't mean that there wasn't times when she was wearing it. The scars on her arms are so far the only thing you have mentioned(that isn't interpretation-based) that actually does challenge the "Rumi = Vermouth" theory. However, until we were to get a glimpse at Vermouth's arms, they cannot debunk the theory.
Well, actually I used the word "body", but considering this is your selective response... Okay.
MeiTanteixX wrote: It looks like you have misunderstood my speculations regarding the "whisky" comment. Her "whisky" comment was obviously meant to help Conan. My argument was not that her favorite drink is for real whisky, but rather that Gosho might have intentionally constructed that statement to hint to her Subaru("Rye"="whisky") interest, like how he did with Jodie's "Sherry" interest(File 343).
Spoiler:
And Jodie turned out to be an ally, so... Please, next time pick a better example, or just don't. This is a waste of your effort.
MeiTanteixX wrote:
Kokuriko wrote:Are there other instances that make you think Vermouth is "personally interested" in anything-ASACA-related outside of the particular 'ASACA song' mission = a BO order itself ?
No, because ever since Rum arc started, she only appeared that one time before Rumi's introduction.
And her little-to-no action based on one case so far (because you mentioned above that you based on her actions to support your theory) is enough for you to include in your Rumi=Vermouth theory post ? Okay.
MeiTanteixX wrote:You have taken quite the liberty to add words to my mouth here. I merely said "it's yet to be determined",
That's exactly why I said you're being coy. You don't seem interested in outright saying that Vermouth indeed got some scars, even though that's really the only way for your theory to make sense now.
take it as you will
I totally do (as indicated above), but then you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, which could be avoided if you limit the scope of what can be taken from your text.
(I'm not obliged to share everything)
I mean, yeah, sure, but I'm not entirely sure how this is helpful to you. You're the one trying to make the case here about Vermouth once again playing dress-up and infiltrating a school for some vague reason.
Also, could you explain to me where you have gotten the impression that we are talking about evidence?
You make the claim that Rumi is Vermouth, you make a theory, you should show some evidence. If all you have to go on is that Rumi could be Vermouth because she could A, could B and could C, then it's not a good theory.
As for what led me to this talking point in the first place, I don't know, most of the correct theories that have been posted on this forum had at least a shred of evidence in them to back them up. Plus in that one show called Detective Conan, usually how Conan does things in his deductions is back his claims with evidence.
If we're in agreement that there's no evidence in your theory, then I guess this is just a speculation and there's no reason to continue this discussion.
There's none whatsoever for any of your or my arguments. You cannot debunk my theory just as much as I can't prove them.
There's nothing to debunk. All you do is make some claims without showing any evidence for it. You're basically asking me to prove to you the negative.
If you admit that you can't prove your own theory, then... well, isn't that kinda telling on its own?
But if you truly do believe that a claim without evidence counts for enough, then here's a theory:
MeiTanteixX in fact doesn't believe that Rumi is Vermouth, but he could be thinking that consistently posting that is really funny, and even if he replies to this saying that he does truly believe in this theory, he could be lying.
Now, I have no proof for this, but I'm pretty sure you can't debunk this either. Guess we'll never know for sure am I right? :V
Yes and yes. Doesn't still mean that it's impossible, but they have contradicted that notion.
Kor wrote:That's exactly why I said you're being coy. You don't seem interested in outright saying that Vermouth indeed got some scars, even though that's really the only way for your theory to make sense now.
Then how about if I phrase it as "to be continued"...?
I'm simply avoiding hasty discussions to something we have nowhere to go on(regardless of her identity). Yes, like you said, if Vermouth were to be Rumi, then whatever the deal is with her arm scars happened after MT, and I could discuss possible explanations, but what does it do if I don't have at least some kind of clue or indication that Gosho could go that route?
Kor wrote:I totally do (as indicated above), but then you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, which could be avoided if you limit the scope of what can be taken from your text.
I mean, yeah, sure, but I'm not entirely sure how this is helpful to you. You're the one trying to make the case here about Vermouth once again playing dress-up and infiltrating a school for some vague reason.
well, as I stated above, it's within progress, and it still will be until we get new development. I have simply nothing to add on the scars at the moment except "we will have to wait for more clues", hence my, what you called coy, comment. I apologize if it sounded harsh.
I'm not enforcing the Rumi=Vermouth idea 24/7 to the point that I constantly need to defend it, and I don't really see anything to defend it for anyway. We are all simply equally clueless. What seems like contradiction yesterday can get cleared up tomorrow(with Gosho's schedule, next year sounds more accurate ), and vice versa.
Kor wrote:You make the claim that Rumi is Vermouth, you make a theory, you should show some evidence. If all you have to go on is that Rumi could be Vermouth because she could A, could B and could C, then it's not a good theory.
As for what led me to this talking point in the first place, I don't know, most of the correct theories that have been posted on this forum had at least a shred of evidence in them to back them up. Plus in that one show called Detective Conan, usually how Conan does things in his deductions is back his claims with evidence.
If we're in agreement that there's no evidence in your theory, then I guess this is just a speculation and there's no reason to continue this discussion.
what do you define as "a shred of evidence"? Could u give an example? There's either evidence or there aren't any right? I'm getting the impression that you talking about an "in-between" here.
Kor wrote:You're basically asking me to prove to you the negative.
I'm not. Just stating the obvious.
Kor wrote:If you admit that you can't prove your own theory, then... well, isn't that kinda telling on its own?
I take the word "proof" and "evidence" seriously. If I were to use Subaru=Akai as an example, the "proof" to him being Akai would be Akai wearing the exact same clothes as Subaru during MT, or Subaru revealing the same eye as Akai after Akai was confirmed to have been in the train, or Bourbon and Jodie's deduction in File 895. If you expect the same type of proof from me, then ofc I can't give you any.
Kor wrote:But if you truly do believe that a claim without evidence counts for enough, then here's a theory:
MeiTanteixX in fact doesn't believe that Rumi is Vermouth, but he could be thinking that consistently posting that is really funny, and even if he replies to this saying that he does truly believe in this theory, he could be lying.
Now, I have no proof for this, but I'm pretty sure you can't debunk this either. Guess we'll never know for sure am I right? :V
you are right.
Kor wrote:Really? How so?
Naeko chasing Chiba around and us seeing her genuine inner thoughts about her infatuation(or just the fact that she has a light-hearted love story in general) contradicts the behavior and characterization of a newly enlisted BO member.
Korn's non-expressiv enthusiasm for killing people and care for a fellow criminal(Calvados) to the point of hating another fellow criminal(Vermouth) contradicts the behavior of a spy that is trying to infiltrate the BO and avoid as much killing as possible and use his colleagues to get in deeper. If we were to say that Korn and Calvados are like Bourbon and Scotch, then Calvados having a thing for Vermouth doesn't help the case that he could be a spy either.
All in all, there are pretty clear contradictions to that notion, but hey... what do we know?
dccd wrote:Just to make it sure:
Did she colour her hair or is she wearing a wig?
Good question. If she dyed her hair, then that could satisfy the ones who see her wearing a disguise while alone as a contradiction to her being Vermouth. Since we couldn't see her eyes, and DC art style of women's faces are mostly the same, for all that we know, she could have been maskless and was only wearing her glasses. Either way, I have no reason to believe that it's relevant at the moment.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
Dunno if youre getting my point completely:
Its all about CH1005 last page.
We see her nude.
So one must assume that its absolutely senseless to wear a wig in that kind of moment -> she doesnt wear a wig (wearing a wig is typical for Vermouth).
So if she doesnt wear a wig she had to dye her hair -> she never did that before (dyeing not typical for Vermouth).
It absolutely doesnt make sense for her to dye her hair since she could easily wear a wig .. as always.
So dumdidum ... its not Vermouth.
I still see the somewhat genius idea behind your theory.
I must admid that I really would´ve never thought of that even if it seems so "logical" when we see the parallel
between BourbonArc-ScarAkai and RumArc-Rumi.
We all really appreciate your theories and sum-ups since theyre all extremly enjoyable to read, but I rather would
suggest that you give up this one.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
dccd wrote:Dunno if youre getting my point completely:
Its all about CH1005 last page.
We see her nude.
So one must assume that its absolutely senseless to wear a wig in that kind of moment -> she doesnt wear a wig (wearing a wig is typical for Vermouth).
So if she doesnt wear a wig she had to dye her hair -> she never did that before (dyeing not typical for Vermouth).
It absolutely doesnt make sense for her to dye her hair since she could easily wear a wig .. as always. So dumdidum ... its not Vermouth.
I still see the somewhat genius idea behind your theory.
I must admid that I really would´ve never thought of that even if it seems so "logical" when we see the parallel
between BourbonArc-ScarAkai and RumArc-Rumi.
We all really appreciate your theories and sum-ups since theyre all extremly enjoyable to read, but I rather would suggest that you give up this one.
Spoiler:
If wearing a wig while alone satisfies you as a contradiction, then be my guest and feel free to see Rumi=Vermouth as impossible.
That's a new one. That's reassuring.
I appreciate you reading them, since I could understand if the huge wall of text would put you off
I suggest the same about the Sakurako=Rum theory.
DC's Awesome Qoutes:
Spoiler:
Bourbon:''A child's curiosity and a detective's spirit of inquiry do have much in common'' Vermouth:''A secret makes a woman, woman'' Mary/Gin:''It's like encountering a demon in the darkness...'' Akai Shuichi:''Fear of death is worse than death itself'' Shinichi Kudo:''following the smell of blood to arrive upon a crime scene, using every one of your senses to hunt the culprit, then once you've seized hold of him, sinking your sharp teeth(your evidence) until your opponent gives up the ghost, That's a detective''
), and vice versa.
