A Possible Questionable New theory Hairbaba still Bo?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I am going to disagree a little bit. Unless the BO already had a mole in the FBI, Then they needed one. They needed someone inside the FBI to let the BO keep an eye on how the BO investigation is going and if necessary make certain files disappear. They saw his in close with Hairaba sister and I am sure they checked him out. After finding out he was FBI, I am sure they then looked for a way to FORCE him to join them most likely involving blackmail. To them Akai was a chance they must not pass up. Again I am sure the FBI for quite a while know about some org Involved in a lot of crime and was investigating them.They might have even known it was the BO.

This makes no sense. Try to put yourself into the organization's shoes. Would you ever want to give confidential info to an FBI agent ever? No. If you have the information and the position to blackmail someone, just blackmail them. You don't actually make them a part of the organization and tell them stuff. When you have spies like Vermouth or can train talent to infiltrate, then you do that, not give out your secrets in some kind of ridiculous exchange that WILL be turned against you. Why are you so hell bent on trying to theorize that the BO has/had control over Akai? It's getting kind of silly.

[sstimson]

I am going to disagree a little bit. Unless the BO already had a mole in the FBI, Then they needed one. They needed someone inside the FBI to let the BO keep an eye on how the BO investigation is going and if necessary make certain files disappear. They saw his in close with Hairaba sister and I am sure they checked him out. After finding out he was FBI, I am sure they then looked for a way to FORCE him to join them most likely involving blackmail. To them Akai was a chance they must not pass up. Again I am sure the FBI for quite a while know about some org Involved in a lot of crime and was investigating them.They might have even known it was the BO.

This makes no sense. Try to put yourself into the organization's shoes. Would you ever want to give confidential info to an FBI agent ever? No. If you have the information and the position to blackmail someone, just blackmail them. You don't actually make them a part of the organization and tell them stuff. When you have spies like Vermouth or can train talent to infiltrate, then you do that, not give out your secrets in some kind of ridiculous exchange that WILL be turned against you. Why are you so hell bent on trying to theorize that the BO has/had control over Akai? It's getting kind of silly.

ever heard of Feed the Mole. The idea is you have a major event happening at Point A. You need the Agents at point A to go to point Z. The FBI knows something big is going down. You plant MISINFORMATION so some of the FBI agents go to point Z making it easier for The BIG EVENT. AS for the idea of no mole, think about this: The BO has better then normal intelligence. We know that they can use spies as shown in Red vs Black. Why would a Major criminal org. be completely in the Dark about what agencies investigating them know? What if the FBI has a mole in the Org. (We know they do now- KIR ) How is BO knowing nothing about what other agencies know about them not going to fall into a trap? Not all traps are as clear as the Red vs Black case. Why would the BO not uses what nations have been using since nations started?The idea is to Give out trivial information in exchange for the Gold nugget intelligence. I am sure as you learn about mafia, you will learn some were brought down from MOLES.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

ever heard of Feed the Mole. The idea is you have a major event happening at Point A. You need the Agents at point A to go to point Z. The FBI knows something big is going down. You plant MISINFORMATION so some of the FBI agents go to point Z making it easier for The BIG EVENT. AS for the idea of no mole, think about this: The BO has better then normal intelligence. We know that they can use spies as shown in Red vs Black. Why would a Major criminal org. be completely in the Dark about what agencies investigating them know? What if the FBI has a mole in the Org. (We know they do now- KIR ) How is BO knowing nothing about what other agencies know about them not going to fall into a trap? Not all traps are as clear as the Red vs Black case. Why would the BO not uses what nations have been using since nations started?The idea is to Give out trivial information in exchange for the Gold nugget intelligence. I am sure as you learn about mafia, you will learn some were brought down from MOLES.

Some of this makes sense, but I'm afraid part of your post is a bit incoherent. If you want to misinform someone, then you can pretend to let them into your organization, but then feed them false info. If you do that though, you must trick your mark into thinking that you don't know they are a spy. You don't go blackmailing them, because then they would know that you know they are a spy, which means that they will not trust information you give them. It is likely that Akai's true identity was not known to the Org because of the circumstances around the time Shuu's rejection took place. It isn't a good idea to allow spies to get close to important personnel, like the executive member Gin, so the Org would not have wanted to set up the meeting with Shuu and Gin if they knew Shuu was a spy beforehand. We can also deduce that the org didn't set up the meeting between Shuu and Gin to get rid of Shuu. If the org knew Dai was a spy and wanted to get rid of him, they would have captured and tortured him for info about the FBI or just shot him. They did neither which suggests the betrayal caught them off guard.
We know that there isn't an Org mole in the FBI because if there was, Gin would not have had to guess which van the FBI had Hidemi in because the mole could have told them the plan. The FBI held a group meeting about their van plan in which Conan was present as well, meaning that if there was a mole, Conan would be in deep trouble and most have been "filled with daylight" by now.

[sstimson]

ever heard of Feed the Mole. The idea is you have a major event happening at Point A. You need the Agents at point A to go to point Z. The FBI knows something big is going down. You plant MISINFORMATION so some of the FBI agents go to point Z making it easier for The BIG EVENT. AS for the idea of no mole, think about this: The BO has better then normal intelligence. We know that they can use spies as shown in Red vs Black. Why would a Major criminal org. be completely in the Dark about what agencies investigating them know? What if the FBI has a mole in the Org. (We know they do now- KIR ) How is BO knowing nothing about what other agencies know about them not going to fall into a trap? Not all traps are as clear as the Red vs Black case. Why would the BO not uses what nations have been using since nations started?The idea is to Give out trivial information in exchange for the Gold nugget intelligence. I am sure as you learn about mafia, you will learn some were brought down from MOLES.

Some of this makes sense, but I'm afraid part of your post is a bit incoherent. If you want to misinform someone, then you can pretend to let them into your organization, but then feed them false info. If you do that though, you must trick your mark into thinking that you don't know they are a spy. You don't go blackmailing them, because then they would know that you know they are a spy, which means that they will not trust information you give them. It is likely that Akai's true identity was not known to the Org because of the circumstances around the time Shuu's rejection took place. It isn't a good idea to allow spies to get close to important personnel, like the executive member Gin, so the Org would not have wanted to set up the meeting with Shuu and Gin if they knew Shuu was a spy beforehand. We can also deduce that the org didn't set up the meeting between Shuu and Gin to get rid of Shuu. If the org knew Dai was a spy and wanted to get rid of him, they would have captured and tortured him for info about the FBI or just shot him. They did neither which suggests the betrayal caught them off guard.
We know that there isn't an Org mole in the FBI because if there was, Gin would not have had to guess which van the FBI had Hidemi in because the mole could have told them the plan. The FBI held a group meeting about their van plan in which Conan was present as well, meaning that if there was a mole, Conan would be in deep trouble and most have been "filled with daylight" by now.

Agree that the BO has an intelligence failure in that it has no MOLES while FBI and CIA have moles in them.

Unless it is like other things: allowing something to happened because you do not want to give the game away just yet. One theory about Pearl Harbor: They knew it was coming, but did not want to let the Japanese know they had broken the Japanese code. So they let Pearl Harbor happen.

It you go to that page about "Feed the Mole" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FeedTheMole and look at the Real LIfe examples, you will find that instead of doing what you suggested :

If you want to misinform someone, then you can pretend to let them into your organization, but then feed them false info. If you do that though, you must trick your mark into thinking that you don't know they are a spy.

The British let the Germans spies they captured know they knew and still ask them to "feed the mole".

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Unless it is like other things: allowing something to happened because you do not want to give the game away just yet. One theory about Pearl Harbor: They knew it was coming, but did not want to let the Japanese know they had broken the Japanese code. So they let Pearl Harbor happen.

Just to let you know, you might actually seriously offend someone with conspiracy theory crap like this.

It you go to that page about "Feed the Mole" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FeedTheMole and look at the Real LIfe examples, you will find that instead of doing what you suggested :
The British let the Germans spies they captured know they knew and still ask them to "feed the mole".

Operation Double Cross was a unique situation. MI5 had physical control over the captured spies so it's a whole different ball game. I can't find many details, but from what I have read, spies that didn't cooperate may have been executed. Akai wasn't in that position so your point is moot.

[sstimson]

Unless it is like other things: allowing something to happened because you do not want to give the game away just yet. One theory about Pearl Harbor: They knew it was coming, but did not want to let the Japanese know they had broken the Japanese code. So they let Pearl Harbor happen.

Just to let you know, you might actually seriously offend someone with conspiracy theory crap like this.

see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.wnyc.org/books/1622 - A MUST READ

It is my option that many important people knew that war with japan was coming. When the Code breaker found the order to start destroying code machine, that to me should have been a dead give away. I will say this. Even with the knowledge Pearl Harbor would have happened. BUT there is not excuse for losing track of the task force that did the attack. Also the lack of code traffic should have also been a tip off that an attack was coming.

It you go to that page about "Feed the Mole" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FeedTheMole and look at the Real LIfe examples, you will find that instead of doing what you suggested :
The British let the Germans spies they captured know they knew and still ask them to "feed the mole".

Operation Double Cross was a unique situation. MI5 had physical control over the captured spies so it's a whole different ball game. I can't find many details, but from what I have read, spies that didn't cooperate may have been executed. Akai wasn't in that position so your point is moot.

You have heard of Double Agents. They are by definition Spies that both sides know are spies. So how do they do that if both sides know the story.

[Abs.]

America: The worst government in the world!

Oh wait.

[Kite]

You have heard of Double Agents. They are by definition Spies that both sides know are spies. So how do they do that if both sides know the story.

What? Double agents are simply spies who betray the side they're spying for, and start spying for the side they should be spying on. They're not spies known by both sides by definition (although both sides do know they're spies, but that's not the focus of the definition).

In normal situations, if the opponents of the spy know they're being spied upon, they'll either eliminate/capture him, or let him swim a bit longer to get the bigger fish. It's not normal procedure to let the spy know he's been seen through, that would defeat all purposes. The spy would just escape with a "Mission failed" message to his bosses.

[sstimson]

You have heard of Double Agents. They are by definition Spies that both sides know are spies. So how do they do that if both sides know the story.

What? Double agents are simply spies who betray the side they're spying for, and start spying for the side they should be spying on. They're not spies known by both sides by definition (although both sides do know they're spies, but that's not the focus of the definition).

In normal situations, if the opponents of the spy know they're being spied upon, they'll either eliminate/capture him, or let him swim a bit longer to get the bigger fish. It's not normal procedure to let the spy know he's been seen through, that would defeat all purposes. The spy would just escape with a "Mission failed" message to his bosses.

Go check out that link at the end of the Real Part. Note that both sides did not trust him and he became a messager boy.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FeedTheMole

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Unless it is like other things: allowing something to happened because you do not want to give the game away just yet. One theory about Pearl Harbor: They knew it was coming, but did not want to let the Japanese know they had broken the Japanese code. So they let Pearl Harbor happen.

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.wnyc.org/books/1622 - A MUST READ
It is my option that many important people knew that war with japan was coming. When the Code breaker found the order to start destroying code machine, that to me should have been a dead give away. I will say this. Even with the knowledge Pearl Harbor would have happened. BUT there is not excuse for losing track of the task force that did the attack. Also the lack of code traffic should have also been a tip off that an attack was coming.

Suspicion Imperial Japan might be up to something and intelligence mishandling/miscommunication are completely different from people in the United States government knowingly letting Pearl Harbor happen. Straight Dope. This is a forum on Detective Conan, not US history, so I'm going to drop the topic, but I will say your viewpoint is exceptionally misinformed.

You have heard of Double Agents. They are by definition Spies that both sides know are spies. So how do they do that if both sides know the story.

Double agents often work like this. Group A sends out a spy to infiltrate Group B. Group A believes that spy is loyal to Group A and A alone. At some point Group B discovers Group A sent a spy. They recruit/coerce the spy to defect and give intelligence on Group A and pass along disinformation to Group A. Only Group B knows the spy is really working for them, this whole time, Group A is in the dark and naively believes the spy is still on their side.
So back to Akai. If Akai was an FBI spy turned double agent, that would mean the org found him out and then somehow forced him to give information on the FBI while the FBI still thinks Akai is still loyal. If they knew Akai was a spy though, they would have offloaded him once they discovered he was putting a plan together to capture Gin since that would have constituted a betrayal. Basically, since Akai isn't dead now, they means the Org didn't find out Akai was a spy until the eleventh hour when Camel blew the operation open right before the meeting.
You should just accept the fact that Akai managed to successfully deceive the org and that the org is not some infallible godlike agency. No one is perfect in Detective Conan. Even Kudo Yusaku failed to recognize and stop a crime in time. A perfect Organization would be a story breaker. To put is simply, villains who the hero can't even scratch no matter what are lame, and setup certain failure because when it does become time for the hero to defeat them, the audience won't accept the sudden nerfing. It's the discovery and the exploitation of the Org's few flaws by the protagonists while the org does the same in return which drives the plot and makes it exciting.

[sstimson]

Unless it is like other things: allowing something to happened because you do not want to give the game away just yet. One theory about Pearl Harbor: They knew it was coming, but did not want to let the Japanese know they had broken the Japanese code. So they let Pearl Harbor happen.

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.wnyc.org/books/1622 - A MUST READ
It is my option that many important people knew that war with japan was coming. When the Code breaker found the order to start destroying code machine, that to me should have been a dead give away. I will say this. Even with the knowledge Pearl Harbor would have happened. BUT there is not excuse for losing track of the task force that did the attack. Also the lack of code traffic should have also been a tip off that an attack was coming.

Suspicion Imperial Japan might be up to something and intelligence mishandling/miscommunication are completely different from people in the United States government knowingly letting Pearl Harbor happen. Straight Dope. This is a forum on Detective Conan, not US history, so I'm going to drop the topic, but I will say your viewpoint is exceptionally misinformed.

Which one. The first rumor one or the one just above.

You have heard of Double Agents. They are by definition Spies that both sides know are spies. So how do they do that if both sides know the story.

Double agents often work like this. Group A sends out a spy to infiltrate Group B. Group A believes that spy is loyal to Group A and A alone. At some point Group B discovers Group A sent a spy. They recruit/coerce the spy to defect and give intelligence on Group A and pass along disinformation to Group A. Only Group B knows the spy is really working for them, this whole time, Group A is in the dark and naively believes the spy is still on their side.

As you used the word often, you acknowledge that it does not work that way all the time. Using Akai as an example
. As stated before, maybe the Bo decides to learn what the FBI knows. So they are looking for a spy. Lets say They find out Akai is a file clerk there. ( His cover ) I leave it to you on how he is recruited. This is my point: They can know he works for a spy agency as long as they do not learn his real Job which is spying on them. All the Bo in this example is looking for is a few copies of files on them. Though unlikely Akai might tell his contact he needs Info on the BO and then the BO might 'feed the Mole' hoping for the gold on them.

So back to Akai. If Akai was an FBI spy turned double agent, that would mean the org found him out and then somehow forced him to give information on the FBI while the FBI still thinks Akai is still loyal. If they knew Akai was a spy though, they would have offloaded him once they discovered he was putting a plan together to capture Gin since that would have constituted a betrayal. Basically, since Akai isn't dead now, they means the Org didn't find out Akai was a spy until the eleventh hour when Camel blew the operation open right before the meeting.

You are not allowing the possibility of "Feed the Mole". This is the trick to make the BO THINK Akai has turned while in reality he is still completely true blue. Yes there is the possibilty of both sides playing the "Feed the Mole" Game. Depending on how good of an actor Akai is though, IT is possible that while the FBI is "Feeding the mole" and Akai knows this, the BO might be completely fooled and So the FBI ends up with the Gold. Depending on whether the FBI plan is long term or not, Again they may allow a few small BO events to happened to know when the MAJOR events are happening. After all as happens all too often they know about several 'small fish' but are fishing for the BIG ones and they might decide that GIN if they learn about him is just another small fish and so go fishing for the Puppet Master.

You should just accept the fact that Akai managed to successfully deceive the org and that the org is not some infallible godlike agency. No one is perfect in Detective Conan. Even Kudo Yusaku failed to recognize and stop a crime in time. A perfect Organization would be a story breaker. To put is simply, villains who the hero can't even scratch no matter what are lame, and setup certain failure because when it does become time for the hero to defeat them, the audience won’t accept the sudden nerfing. It's the discovery and the exploitation of the Org's few flaws by the protagonists while the org does the same in return which drives the plot and makes it exciting.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Spoiler:

As you used the word often, you acknowledge that it does not work that way all the time. Using Akai as an example
. As stated before, maybe the Bo decides to learn what the FBI knows. So they are looking for a spy. Lets say They find out Akai is a file clerk there. ( His cover ) I leave it to you on how he is recruited. This is my point: They can know he works for a spy agency as long as they do not learn his real Job which is spying on them. All the Bo in this example is looking for is a few copies of files on them. Though unlikely Akai might tell his contact he needs Info on the BO and then the BO might 'feed the Mole' hoping for the gold on them.
You are not allowing the possibility of "Feed the Mole". This is the trick to make the BO THINK Akai has turned while in reality he is still completely true blue. Yes there is the possibilty of both sides playing the "Feed the Mole" Game. Depending on how good of an actor Akai is though, IT is possible that while the FBI is "Feeding the mole" and Akai knows this, the BO might be completely fooled and So the FBI ends up with the Gold. Depending on whether the FBI plan is long term or not, Again they may allow a few small BO events to happened to know when the MAJOR events are happening. After all as happens all too often they know about several 'small fish' but are fishing for the BIG ones and they might decide that GIN if they learn about him is just another small fish and so go fishing for the Puppet Master.

When I use often, I'm ignoring complicated cases like unwitting double agents. In any case, it's hard for me to decipher your point because your post isn't clear. It sounds like you are advocating a straight up double agent scenario exactly like I described in my above post, where the agent being recruited is a member of an intelligence organization who could provide access. This scenario has definitely happened in real life, so no problems there. Of course, no agency will ever try to recruit an agent who they think will betray.
The problem with your scenario is none of it matches Akai's situation, so it's all irrelevant. Akai was a straight up "single agent" who infiltrated the Org without the Org knowing. Akai never gave info about the FBI to the Org.

[sstimson]

Spoiler:

As you used the word often, you acknowledge that it does not work that way all the time. Using Akai as an example
. As stated before, maybe the Bo decides to learn what the FBI knows. So they are looking for a spy. Lets say They find out Akai is a file clerk there. ( His cover ) I leave it to you on how he is recruited. This is my point: They can know he works for a spy agency as long as they do not learn his real Job which is spying on them. All the Bo in this example is looking for is a few copies of files on them. Though unlikely Akai might tell his contact he needs Info on the BO and then the BO might 'feed the Mole' hoping for the gold on them.
You are not allowing the possibility of "Feed the Mole". This is the trick to make the BO THINK Akai has turned while in reality he is still completely true blue. Yes there is the possibilty of both sides playing the "Feed the Mole" Game. Depending on how good of an actor Akai is though, IT is possible that while the FBI is "Feeding the mole" and Akai knows this, the BO might be completely fooled and So the FBI ends up with the Gold. Depending on whether the FBI plan is long term or not, Again they may allow a few small BO events to happened to know when the MAJOR events are happening. After all as happens all too often they know about several 'small fish' but are fishing for the BIG ones and they might decide that GIN if they learn about him is just another small fish and so go fishing for the Puppet Master.

When I use often, I'm ignoring complicated cases like unwitting double agents. In any case, it's hard for me to decipher your point because your post isn't clear. It sounds like you are advocating a straight up double agent scenario exactly like I described in my above post, where the agent being recruited is a member of an intelligence organization who could provide access. This scenario has definitely happened in real life, so no problems there. Of course, no agency will ever try to recruit an agent who they think will betray.
The problem with you scenario is none of it matches Akai's situation, so it's all irrelevant. Akai was a straight up "single agent" who infiltrated the Org without the Org knowing. Akai never gave info about the FBI to the Org.

Let me put this simply. I think the job the BO would mostly give Akai is to spy on the FBI. For that to happen, they must know he works for them. BUT NOT HIS REAL JOB. That would be the safest job and way for him to go back and forth and the BO would be none the wiser.

Put it this way. For Akai to report to the FBI requires risk if they (BO) do not think he works for them and is seen talking to the wrong person.

But if they know he works for them and they think he is working for the BO inside the FBI. Then he gets a lot of freedom as they know he will ' be going to work'. This makes it easy for him to report. And it gives the FBI a way to "Feed the Mole"

[Abs.]

"Hey Aniki.  There's some FBI guy getting all chummy with the older Miyano girl."

"Kill him."

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

"Hey Aniki.  There's some FBI guy getting all chummy with the older Miyano girl."

"Kill him."

This.